RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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It has nothing to do with being magical. Elven chainmail is elven chainmail because that's how the way it's made from the getgo. You can't "upgrade" it from another armor, any more than you can upgrade from leather armor to plate.Other good stuff . . . It's like Elven Chainmail, it has to be made that way from the start. And you can only have it as is, it can't be upgraded past that.Just to be clear, this isn't true of Elven Chainmail, it can be upgraded as it isn't magical as listed in the book.
He didn't say upgrade from something else into Elven Chain, he said upgrade the Elven Chain to something else. And that is explicitly allowed in the Official FAQ: "Non-magic specific armor and specific weapons may be upgraded normally."
So you can buy a set of Elven Chain, and then later upgrade it to +1 and beyond.
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Note: Permanent while worn.
Take it off, the stat boost ends.
What the temporary vs permanent is meant to cover is what things get the bonus for the entire time you wear the item, and what extra bonuses come into play after your PC has worn it for 24 hours.
Examples of temporary bonuses:
Extra hit points
Better save
Better to hit and/or damage
Examples of bonuses that only come into play after the first 24 hours worn:
Extra rounds of Rage
Extra spell slots
Extra number of Channel Energy per day
Ability to take a feat with a stat prerequisite that you wouldn't be able to meet without the item worn.
Note that, if your PC takes the item off, all bonuses from it end at that instance, both the ones that start when initially worn and those accrued by wearing for more than 24 hours.
Lose extra hit points, just like ending a Rage
Lose extra spell slots
Lose extra Channels
NB: If your stat is still too low to qualify for a feat taken with the stat item on, you lose access to that feat, and won't regain it until either: you wear the stat enhancer for more than 24 hours, or you somehow boost the stat up permanently, either through the every 4th level stat boost, or use of an appropriate tome/libram/etc. that gives an inherent boost to that stat.
Also note that, since the stat boosting items give an enhancement bonus to that stat, that they won't stack either with themselves, or any other item that gives an enhancement bonus to that stat, like the appropriate Ioun stone. If multiple stat enhancement items are worn, either the strongest one (+4 vs +2, for example), or one of them pretty much at random (for two +2 enhancement items) is the active one, and the other one is inactive until the active one is removed.
And, if the active one is removed, and the other one worn becomes active, it is treated as just donned, not with the over 24 hour bonus, as it was turned off by the presence of the active item.
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Having a Spellcaster cast Masterwork Transformation on a weapon costs 360GP (10x2(SL)x3(CL) + 300). Do you have to have 5 Fame before you can have this cast for you?
Hmmmm...I don't think so. RAW I don't see anything that applies the fame requirements to anything BUT items. RAI you're getting a masterwork weapon, which is always available.
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My concern comes more from the fact that it's a 2nd level spell which isn't covered. However, I see the logic to your response.
The issue is Firearms, really. Some people may have an attachment to their first weapon that would drive them to use this spell, but besides those people, the only others that would use it are Gunslingers. The guns are so darn expensive, you can't afford to just drop the free one you get and buy a new one after your first mod. Gunslingers are already limited by ammunition overhead, I think making a musketeer wait until almost third level to get a M/W weapon is pretty rough.
While on the subject, and assuming you used M/W Transformation on your starter gun, when determining where you fall in the range of Fame, do you take your starter musket to be worth 22GP or the 1500GP a new one would be worth? This is important because it can delay at which point you can upgrade it to +2 due to the almost 1500GP difference.
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My concern comes more from the fact that it's a 2nd level spell which isn't covered. However, I see the logic to your response.
The issue is Firearms, really. Some people may have an attachment to their first weapon that would drive them to use this spell, but besides those people, the only others that would use it are Gunslingers. The guns are so darn expensive, you can't afford to just drop the free one you get and buy a new one after your first mod. Gunslingers are already limited by ammunition overhead, I think making a musketeer wait until almost third level to get a M/W weapon is pretty rough.
While on the subject, and assuming you used M/W Transformation on your starter gun, when determining where you fall in the range of Fame, do you take your starter musket to be worth 22GP or the 1500GP a new one would be worth? This is important because it can delay at which point you can upgrade it to +2 due to the almost 1500GP difference.
You didn't catch a couple of rules for Gunslingers with the Gunsmithing feat.
Special: If you are a gunslinger, this feat grants the following additional benefit. You can use this feat to repair and restore your initial, battered weapon. It costs 300 gp and 1 day of work to upgrade it to a masterwork firearm of its type.
Gunslingers gain Gunsmithing as a bonus feat at 1st level. Since the time between scenarios is indefinite, there is no problem with the one day needed, and a successful first scenario gains them around 500 gp, so the 300 gp is within reason.
In other words, After their first or second scenario, just like most weapon-oriented combatants, the Gunslinger will have a masterwork weapon.
Now, for enhancement purposes, the value of the masterwork firearm would be the same as a full price firearm of the same price, not the 172 gp you would get for it if sold.
All of which means that, unless you buy a real, non-masterwork firearm at some point, at which point you wouldn't need to worry about the Fame limits for the spell cost, a Gunslinger will have a masterwork weapon fairly quickly.
Probably faster than anyone else, other than an archer with a 16 Str using 2 PP to get that darkwood masterwork composite (Str +3) longbow that costs 730 gp....
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Special: If you are a gunslinger, this feat grants the following additional benefit. You can use this feat to repair and restore your initial, battered weapon. It costs 300 gp and 1 day of work to upgrade it to a masterwork firearm of its type.Gunslingers gain Gunsmithing as a bonus feat at 1st level. Since the time between scenarios is indefinite, there is no problem with the one day needed, and a successful first scenario gains them around 500 gp, so the 300 gp is within reason.
In other words, After their first or second scenario, just like most weapon-oriented combatants, the Gunslinger will have a masterwork weapon.
Now, for enhancement purposes, the value of the masterwork firearm would be the same as a full price firearm of the same price, not the 172 gp you would get for it if sold.
All of which means that, unless you buy a real, non-masterwork firearm at some point, at which point you wouldn't need to...
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But isn't this like any other upgrade to a weapon? Even if you are paying an amount of gold within your fame limit, you can't own an item which is too expensive as a whole for your fame, unless it is always available or on a chronicle.Since firearms are no longer always available and I have never seen one on a chronicle, then yes, your gunslinger has to wait until at best 3rd level to get a MW weapon (actually lvl 4 if you have the "proper" amount of prestige). Then until like 5th level to get a magic weapon.
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Special: If you are a gunslinger, this feat grants the following additional benefit. You can use this feat to repair and restore your initial, battered weapon. It costs 300 gp and 1 day of work to upgrade it to a masterwork firearm of its type.Gunslingers gain Gunsmithing as a bonus feat at 1st level. Since the time between scenarios is indefinite, there is no problem with the one day needed, and a successful first scenario gains them around 500 gp, so the 300 gp is within reason.
In other words, After their first or second scenario, just like most weapon-oriented combatants, the Gunslinger will have a masterwork weapon.
Now, for enhancement purposes, the value of the masterwork firearm would be the same as a full price firearm of the same price, not the 172 gp you would get for it if sold.
All of which means that, unless you buy a real, non-masterwork firearm at some point, at which point you wouldn't need to...
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But isn't this like any other upgrade to a weapon? Even if you are paying an amount of gold within your fame limit, you can't own an item which is too expensive as a whole for your fame, unless it is always available or on a chronicle.Since firearms are no longer always available and I have never seen one on a chronicle, then yes, your gunslinger has to wait until at best 3rd level to get a MW weapon (actually lvl 4 if you have the "proper" amount of prestige). Then until like 5th level to get a magic weapon.
No. Simply, no.
That original firearm, and the ability to masterwork it, won't rely on Fame levels. And making it +1, at least, also won't rely on Fame, since +1 enhancements to weapons are always available.
Making it +2, however, will rely on the full market price of the firearm, and, in similar fashion to special material armor and shields, that will delay a bit the higher enhancements. However, given the ability to go against touch AC, at least within certain limits, will do much to mitigate the slower progression for enhancement.
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That original firearm, and the ability to masterwork it, won't rely on Fame levels. And making it +1, at least, also won't rely on Fame, since +1 enhancements to weapons are always available.
I would double check that if I were you, since Mike explicitly and specifically excepted firearms from that rule.
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That original firearm, and the ability to masterwork it, won't rely on Fame levels. And making it +1, at least, also won't rely on Fame, since +1 enhancements to weapons are always available.I would double check that if I were you, since Mike explicitly and specifically excepted firearms from that rule.
Unless it is provided by a Class feature...kinevon is correct when he states "That original firearm".
The original Firearm given to the Gunslinger can be upgraded up to +1 before fame considerations.
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You don't. you sell what you can for half value and then just buy it. It's like Elven Chainmail, it has to be made that way from the start. And you can only have it as is, it can't be upgraded past that.I stand corrected. Suits me for answering without pulling a book out and looking up what the metal Celestial Armor was made from. I was going on the word of the posters here. Thanks for the correction and removed from above.Kyle, great job.
May I also suggest that an edited example be put there. To give clarification of the "Can I Upgrade a Named Magic Item"
Q: Can I work my way towards a named magical item of the weapon or armor category? Such as Celestial Armor?
Yes. So, for example I have a Mithrial Chainmail which I bought for 4150. Over time I add my +3 bonus for an extra 9000. This puts me at a +3 Mithrial Chainmail which cost a total of 13,150. I now wish to upgrade to Celestial Armor for the difference in price 13,150-22,400= 9250. I will still need the fame score of 36 to purchase this item.
If this is too confusing or wordy feel free to clean this up.
Actually, you can not do this. Mithrial Chainmail is made of Mithrial. Celestial Armor is made of "bright silver or gold" and "is so fine and light that it can be worn under normal clothing". Celestial Armor is not made of Mithrial and you can not upgrade the materials that something is made of.
Edit. Reversed by Mike. Mike really?
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... So how do you upgrade to a Celestial Armor armor then?
So Celestial Armor cannot be upgraded to +4 by paying the difference?
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They should release a second equipment book that allows you to upgrade named items.Or not. I'm quite happy with the way the rules are now. There are plenty of choices as it is, not everything should be available.
I'm not, I wish there some way to improve some items. Heck, I also wish there option to have stat items outside of belts and headbands, or even just allow a +4 to one stat and +2 to an other. It'll allows for slightly more character customization in terms of gear.
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I'm not, I wish there some way to improve some items. Heck, I also wish there option to have stat items outside of belts and headbands, or even just allow a +4 to one stat and +2 to an other. It'll allows for slightly more character customization in terms of gear.They should release a second equipment book that allows you to upgrade named items.Or not. I'm quite happy with the way the rules are now. There are plenty of choices as it is, not everything should be available.
I'm with Todd on this. I'm quite happy with the options and choices we have now. Any more than we have now, and we are treading awfully close to allowing crafting.
If there was one more thing I'd like to see allowed in item purchasing, it would be items with "lesser" in their name to their regular or "greater" versions. But that's about it.
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Dahbadu: You can't upgrade mithral chainmail to celestial armour; Mike has posted (superseding the other post you quoted) confirming that this is the case HERE.
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I'm confused.
Why is the material under the item used to calculate its value as opposed to just the level of enchantment you have purchased?
Why would a +2 suit of chainmail be available at 17 Fame when a +2 suit of Mith chainmail not be available until 27 Fame, given that Mith is always available and not Fame restricted?
Seems odd you could theoretically get +1 Mith chain quite early, and then have to wait a long period before you could make it +2 (indeed at that point other people can be rolling +3)
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Venture-Captain, Massachusetts—Central & West
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I'm confused.
Why is the material under the item used to calculate its value as opposed to just the level of enchantment you have purchased?
Why would a +2 suit of chainmail be available at 17 Fame when a +2 suit of Mith chainmail not be available until 27 Fame, given that Mith is always available and not Fame restricted?
Seems odd you could theoretically get +1 Mith chain quite early, and then have to wait a long period before you could make it +2 (indeed at that point other people can be rolling +3)
Because +2 armor is not considered Always Available, and thus you have to have the fame for the total item value. The extra gold needed to make something out of Mithral bumps up the Fame needed to purchase it. Regular +1 Chainmail and +1 Mithral Chainmail are always available, and thus not subject to Fame score limitations.
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Sure, but if all you are doing is upgrading your item it seems odd.
The upgrade itself say from +1 to +2 is the only thing you are 'buying', you are moving from a 1,000gp worth of enchantment to 4,000gp worth of enchantment, it doesn't cost 'extra' to enchant as say Cold Iron might, so what gives?
A basic wand of CLW costs 750, but if someone stickytapes a 100gp gem on the end of it I can't have it anymore?
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I'm confused.
Why is the material under the item used to calculate its value as opposed to just the level of enchantment you have purchased?
Why would a +2 suit of chainmail be available at 17 Fame when a +2 suit of Mith chainmail not be available until 27 Fame, given that Mith is always available and not Fame restricted?
Seems odd you could theoretically get +1 Mith chain quite early, and then have to wait a long period before you could make it +2 (indeed at that point other people can be rolling +3)
Shifty, try thinking of it this way. Your faction sends out its minions to find you things that you want but only if you are important enough to THEM. Mith +2 armor is more rare and harder to find than just steel +2 armor so if you haven't done for them they don't feel the need to find this item for you to buy.
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Except do they have to find the armour, or are they just upgrading it? Does their notional enchanter type have to do anything different at all to 'upgrade' your suit of Mith armour above and beyond the 'enchantment' he does for your fellow party member who is doing the exact same 'upgrade' on his equivalent iron based chainmail?
Cold Iron stipulates theres a difference, and obviously placing a new effect on an item adds a +X modifier, so that makes sense, but neither of these conditions apply in this case.
You aren't buying something 'new', you are using the upgrade path.
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Shifty,
You're trying to put a logical mathematical rule to a general game concept/attitude.
It costs 3,000 gp to upgrade a suit of leather armor from +1 to +2 for a total value of 4,160 gp.
It costs 3,000 gp to upgrade a suit of Adamantine Full Plate from +1 to +2 for a value cost of 20,500 gp.
Nothing is different for the Wizard who is performing the upgrade. The only difference is the starting material. So mathematically your argument is sound.
However, the fame vs. gold value rule is in place as a means to guide (monitor, restrict, limit, etc.) what players can reasonably have at a specific level. Some rules that just don't fit a mathematical model (even sometimes not completely logical and consistent) are needed and used in organize play to create some basic balance and expectations (for both the player and the authors). This is one of those rules, and in general, it works fine.
Do all the rules work perfectly? no.
Do I like all the rules as is? no.
Would I change a few if I could? yes.
Am I willing to work with the rules as written and play in the organized play system? absolutely! The small price for these restrictions (as some people call them) is tiny in comparison to the fun I receive from playing in PFS.
You need to remember, if you don't like a rule and you have a good reason and a good alternative way to suggest, Mike and Mark are always willing to listen. (well, at least most of the time. There are a few rules that have been beaten to death they don't want to talk about again.)
So in short there is no 'upgrade' path to Celestial armor. (I've paid for the 50% loss in resale value to purchase it, I know.)
There is no 'upgrade' path to a Sun Blade.
There is no 'upgrade' path to Rod of Withering.
There is no 'upgrade' path to Boots of the Winterlands.
Some items just need to be purchase outright, and that makes them a little more special.
-Swiftbrook
Just My Thougths
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I get where you are at Swift, but at some point it was decided that Adam/Mith were not something that was going to be covered by the notional WBL system in that they made them freely available to anyone.
They only become a 'problem' later when I stick an enchantment on them past +1 (so the +1 enchant breaks the WBL system too)
If we think if the Enchantment process as being a commodity (in this case a 4k 'service') then thats what you should have access to. If there is no raise or modifer to the complexity, then it should simply be the service. If just bearing the cost of the special materials is considered 'balanced' then why are they subseqently 'punished'?
Thats what I think is a bit rough.
Either special materials are gamechanging and need to be WBL balanced, or they don't. I'm just not sure whey they become an issue at the +2 mark when apparently tehy are no big deal earlier on.
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Heh. People have enough problems with the Fame table, and you don't even want to think about the original Total Prestige Award access tables, back in Season 0.
Available to everyone:
Small list of items with their TPA requirement.
Available to Faction A:
List of unique items, with their TPA requirement.
Each faction had its own list, and sometimes those lists were pretty ... bad.
I didn't retain a copy of those rules, but I know they tended to make my eyes cross, and I am fairly good with math.
To really handle things the way you would want, Shifty, would require a fairly major rebuild of the Fame Access table.
Fame = 0
Access only to items that are either on the Always Available list, or listed on a Chronicle Sheet assigned to the PC.
Fame = 5
Access to legal magical items with market prices of 500 gold or less.
Fame = 9
Access to legal magical items with market prices of 1500 gold or less.
Fame = 13
Access to legal magical items with market prices of 3000 gold or less.
Access to +2 Armor & Shield Enhancements (note that this only allows access to a maximum bonus on the armor or shield of +2 or equivalent, it does NOT include any statically priced enhancements)
Fame = 18
Access to legal magical items with market prices of 5250 gold or less.
Access to +2 Armor & Shield Enhancements (note that this only allows access to a maximum bonus on the armor or shield of +2 or equivalent, it does NOT include any statically priced enhancements)
Fame = 22
Access to legal magical items with market prices of 8000 gold or less.
Access to +2 Armor & Shield Enhancements (note that this only allows access to a maximum bonus on the armor or shield of +2 or equivalent, it does NOT include any statically priced enhancements)
Fame = 27
Access to legal magical items with market prices of 11750 gold or less.
Access to +3 Armor & Shield Enhancements (note that this only allows access to a maximum bonus on the armor or shield of +3 or equivalent, it does NOT include any statically priced enhancements)
Access to +2 Weapon Enhancements (note that this only allows access to a maximum bonus on the weapon of +2 or equivalent, it does NOT include any statically priced enhancements)
Fame = 31
Access to legal magical items with market prices of 16500 gold or less.
Access to +4 Armor & Shield Enhancements (note that this only allows access to a maximum bonus on the armor or shield of +4 or equivalent, it does NOT include any statically priced enhancements)
Access to +2 Weapon Enhancements (note that this only allows access to a maximum bonus on the weapon of +2 or equivalent, it does NOT include any statically priced enhancements)
Fame = 36
Access to legal magical items with market prices of 23000 gold or less.
Access to +4 Armor & Shield Enhancements (note that this only allows access to a maximum bonus on the armor or shield of +4 or equivalent, it does NOT include any statically priced enhancements)
Access to +3 Weapon Enhancements (note that this only allows access to a maximum bonus on the weapon of +3 or equivalent, it does NOT include any statically priced enhancements)
Then, you also need to provide some sort of conversion factor for the static enhancements. I have one PC with Glamered on his armor. I know that there are a couple of Rogue types around with various levels of Shadow. I know that almost every PC I have who uses a bow is going to be adding Adaptive as soon as their Fame allows it...
Easiest all around to just stay with a simple formula.
Especially since, and I calculated this out at one point, there is usually minimal difference in Fame needed to upgrade the special materials items to regular material items.
15000 may sound like a lot, but it shrinks in effect as your PC's Fame grows. And, to be honest, by the time you could afford that Admanatine Full Plate, unless you always play up or never purchase anything along the way, is going to be when you probably would have enough Fame to have bought it if it wasn't on the Always Available list.
Most of my PCs have more difficulty with money than Fame. My 5th level PC wants a couple of stat boosters, but is still getting nibbles to death by the littler items, like the Handy Haversack, or getting his alternate damage weapon into the magical field, like his primary weapon. But i think his current Fame total goes well past that gold level already. YMMV.
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I suppose so, although really all I am suggesting is effectively 'ignoring' the underlying 'mundane' material, which could be effected with a single line under the item table to that effect.
That being said, I suppose it might then open the door for people trying to get 'celestial' armour (or similar) that bit earlier as a result. Hmmm.
I was more concerned with having to wait even longer to get my Mith BP beefed up to +2. I have the cash to do so, as I have been saving my pennies, but am just a bit shy of the Fame. Annoying that I could otherwise outright buy a plain +2 one, but the one I'm wearing can't be enchanted yet.
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Any way I can buy an +1 chainmail,and then upgrade it to +1 mithral chainmail? I heard of "weapon blanching" for weapons, that will let a player possibly change the material of his or her weapon. Anything like that for armor?
Or am I looking at a situation where I basically have to buy +1 chainmail, then sell it for 50%, and then use that money to buy mithral chainmail?
You should buy regular chainmaile, sell that for 50%, buy mithral chain mail, then upgrade the mithral to +1. This way you only loose 50 gp into the ether. (half the cost of the regular chain armor)
A weapon blanche is a 1 time use deal its good on a backup weapon, and its amazing on arrows or other amunition.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Any way I can buy +1 chainmail, and then upgrade it to +1 mithral chainmail? I heard of "weapon blanching" for weapons, that will let a player possibly change the material of his or her weapon. Anything like that for armor?
Weapon blanches coat your weapon such that it's treated as a special material for purposes of overcoming DR (but gains no other effects of that material), and it only lasts for one hit.
Not quite what you're looking for. ;)
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Any way I can buy +1 chainmail, and then upgrade it to +1 mithral chainmail? I heard of "weapon blanching" for weapons, that will let a player possibly change the material of his or her weapon. Anything like that for armor?
Or am I looking at a situation where I basically have to buy +1 chainmail, then sell it for 50%, and then use that money to buy mithral chainmail?
BNW and Jiggy got it. You need to but the special material first.
Your best option is to hold out buying magical armor until you can afford the special material one. If you already bought the +1 chainmail, then like BNW said, you need to sell it first and re-buy.
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2 questions, both of them regardless of Fame score limits:
1- When upgrading, is it possible to swap an enhancement bonus for an equivalent special ability? For a specific example could I upgrade a +2 Club into a +1 Anarchic Club (equivalent to a +3)? Or even a +1 Flaming Club into said +1 Anarchic Club? I'm not sure why that would be the case, but it can't hurt to ask.
2- Can enhancements with a flat GP cost, like Adaptive or Glamered, be added using the upgrade system, or only when you buy the item?
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Did anyone notice that in ultimate equipment the line about Celestial Chainmail being made of gold or silver is taken out?
UE States "This +3 chainmail is so fine and light that
it can be worn under normal clothing
without betraying its presence. It has
a maximum Dexterity bonus of +8,
an armor check penalty of –2, and an
arcane spell failure chance of 15%. It is
considered light armor and allows the
wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day."
So thus there is no problem upgrading it.
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2 questions, both of them regardless of Fame score limits:
1- When upgrading, is it possible to swap an enhancement bonus for an equivalent special ability? For a specific example could I upgrade a +2 Club into a +1 Anarchic Club (equivalent to a +3)? Or even a +1 Flaming Club into said +1 Anarchic Club? I'm not sure why that would be the case, but it can't hurt to ask.
2- Can enhancements with a flat GP cost, like Adaptive or Glamered, be added using the upgrade system, or only when you buy the item?
1)No. You can't "sell back" part of an enhancement while upgrading an item. You can only add to the item. So, you could take your +2 Club and turn it into a +2 Anarchic Club, but not a +1 Anarchic Club.
2) Sure, as long as you have the requisite fame to purchase the final item as normal.
So I can always turn my masterwork weapon into a +1 magical weapon.
What about adding a magical property to it(like Bane or flaming) When can that be done?
Any time or only when I buy such weapon?
You can add extra properties or pluses to the weapon at any time, assuming you have the required money and fame.
It says the price for upgrading is "+1" but what does that mean? Where do i find the prices for upgrades like Bane or flaming?
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It says the price for upgrading is "+1" but what does that mean? Where do i find the prices for upgrades like Bane or flaming?
Its variable. It means you have to price your weapon as if it were one higher.
You can't have a magical longsword without a +1 enhancement bonus already.
So if you have a longsword +1 (which costs 2,315) and you want to make it a +2 sword (8,315-the cost of a +2 weapon ), you have to pay 6,000 gp. (and need the fame for the whole 8315)
If you have a longsword +1 (which costs 2,315) and you want to make it a +1 flaming longsword (8,315 ), you have to pay 6,000 gp: because flaming= +1, so you price it exactly like a +2 longsword.
If you have a longsword +2 (8,315) and want to make a flaming longsword +2, its the same as upgrading to a sword +3. So its 18,315-8,315=10,000 gp (the cost of a +3 weapon- the cost of a +2 weapon)
Ahh, I get it, so +1 means I price it as if it is a +2 weapon.
Thanks for the help.