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I figure I might as well share this again. Here's an excerpt to show that not all Paladins are the stereotypical party-be-hatin' Paladins.
From this post.
Well if it was like my last Paladin, it was probably because they were blinded by her vulgar language, hanging around in bars, and picking up guys for one night stands. She never called herself a Paladin. In fact, she referred to herself as "Some fool whose ideals will get her killed one day". She worshipped a LN goddess of witchcraft, magic, and undeath. She carried a bigass glaive, wore spiked gauntlets and armor, was pale with dark eyes, with piercings along her ears, and was an expert on magic and sorcery.
Of course, when he came to the Paladin's code she was 100% legal. She never lied and didn't see the point in it (resulting in her being blunt sometimes). "Why am I here? Well 'cause you kidnapped some brat and I came to see if you'd give him back. What do you say? Wanna work out a deal? It's not in me to leave the kid out here, but I'd really like to get back to town for a good drink and a better ****".
She was merciful. She even beat the snot out of an enemy with her gauntlets after declaring it here smite target. A big sentient monster. After she knocked it senseless, she stabilized it and told it to remember her, and what she did for it when it got better.
She was altruistic to a fault. She wandered around from place to place, not sleeping for days on end (LoH removed fatigue), and just kind of did what needed to be done. She never expected money for her services, but always took what was offered. She was the sort that would dive to push a kid aside from a dragon's breath cursing "Damnit, why do children have to be so annoying!?" *roasts* *stands back up self-healing* "Wanna fight do ya, lizard!?" *pulls up her sleeve and rakes off the melted flesh from her healing face* "Let's do it then. First one to cry uncle?" *declares smite target*.
Her long term goals involved overcoming her natural illnesses (Con 7) by accepting the goddess' blessing and becoming an unliving solider, so as to be better at dealing with the forces of evil (best thing for fighting renegade undead is with undead, afterall).
Was she a Paladin? Undoubtedly. Was she your stereotypical one? Not at all.
And at least one of those monk threads is like two years old!..COME ON PEOPLE!
Ash, I think paladins should be played more along those lines, why not a non-traditional hero? Original or less done to death is always a good thing if handled well.
She worshipped a LN goddess of witchcraft, magic, and undeath.
Wee Jas by any chance? That was Zhaorae's patron as well. She was a Ruby Knight Vindicator (or she would have been, if the campaign hadn't died; PrC for Divine Caster+Martial Maneuver user from Bo9S, Rae was a Pally/Crusader) and was part of the Cult of the Green Lady in AoW.
Rae fought with a bladed heavy flail, was more intimidating than diplomatic, left the smooth talking to her CG Rogue brother or CG Warlock sister, had the Wisdom of a sizeable rock, and was the most wretched cook on this side of Oerth.
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Seriously though, what possesses people to go thousands of posts deep about monks? I think that is more annoying than me asking about paladins and getting 50 to a hundred replies.
I think monks are just the subject, not the cause. It could be any topic, and people would carry on the same. All it takes is an investment in the argument. It's under the surface of the argument, not the argument itself.
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Seriously though, what possesses people to go thousands of posts deep about monks? I think that is more annoying than me asking about paladins and getting 50 to a hundred replies.
If you want my honest answer...well I think it's because monks have more baggage. Paladins are mechanically solid, so we got no real complaints there. We're not worried about them under performing (a problem monks have). Paladins don't get the hate for being "not my fantasy" or somesuch garbage (monks get this a lot too). About the worst that Paladins really have to deal with is the poorly explained Paladin codes and douchebag players/GMs (douchebags people tend to make any class a nightmare, but since they insist that is how paladins are supposed to be it tends to stick with people more).
Overall I'm personally pretty happy with Paladins. Barbarians. Rangers. Druids. Bards. Clerics. Wizards. Sorcerers get some house-rule lurv but overall I think they're pretty nice. Monks just end up as a hot topic because they are horrible from a gaming perspective and also rub some people the wrong way from a narrative perspective, I guess.
Just 2 coppers from a sleepy poster though. I'll try to think about it more later. I've seriously considered just dropping from the monk threads though. You're right that some of them have been aging and much as raging, and honestly I'm about tuckered out. It's the same ol' stuff, and no one wants to really work out their mechanics as much as they want to post builds with whatever race and feats are cool this week in hopes to prove that monks are the hacks. I should really be working on community projects, or my novel.
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She worshipped a LN goddess of witchcraft, magic, and undeath.Wee Jas by any chance? That was Zhaorae's patron as well. She was a Ruby Knight Vindicator (or she would have been, if the campaign hadn't died; PrC for Divine Caster+Martial Maneuver user from Bo9S, Rae was a Pally/Crusader) and was part of the Cult of the Green Lady in AoW.
Rae fought with a bladed flail, was more intimidating than diplomatic, left the smooth talking to her CG Rogue brother or CG Warlock sister, had the Wisdom of a sizeable rock, and was the most wretched cook on this side of Oerth.
It sure was Wee Jass. Loved her ever since I read her tiny description in the 3.0 Player's Handbook. A goddess with Paladins, Clerics, Wizards and Necromancers beneath the same banner is awesome, and I've always appreciated Intelligence in a lady.
Ash, I think paladins should be played more along those lines, why not a non-traditional hero? Original or less done to death is always a good thing if handled well.
Thank you Conundrum. That post originally scored 10 favorites, so I was happy that it entertained. It was a fun character to play. I haven't gotten to play her in a while, but she was already on her path to lich-dom by 5th level, where she had been rewarded with a manual to study to begin readying for her journey into undeath. She was going to eventually be a lich-knight. Quite a mighty warrior for the forces of good indeed. Because of being a Paladin she already seemed so undead-like as well. She didn't get sick, she didn't sleep, she only ate what was necessary to survive and even then she could go weeks without eating or drinking of she needed to (and did so in one instance so as to allow more food to those who she felt needed it more than she).
It was fun to play her, and it surprised me when one of the party metagamed rather obviously. He was so shocked by her, having seen "Paladin" on my character sheet, he blurted out in character "What kind of Paladin are you!?" and she plopped down on a large rock, took a drink of the green tea she kept bottled (she actually didn't drink alcohol 'cause she hated the taste but was mad over tea) and said: "Paladin? Er...well I guess you could call me that. It's not something I'd go around claiming though." she said thinking about it.
"What would you call yourself then?" he responded. She thought about it for a moment, shrugged and said. "A fool who cares to much, and it'll probably be the death of me". I was in love with her character for keeps at this point. It even became fun to play off his stereotypal confusion. "Besides, most people that call themselves Paladins are some knights in shining armor, with all their fancy codes and noble orders. I like those guys. They're great, but I couldn't be one of 'em. It's just not me. I've been more of a loner, and I just do what feels right to me. I'm not sure they'd have me if I tried to be one of 'em."
Yes, that's the way and as a general method could work for many different paladin spins, each equally absorbing and satisfying to play!
People need to do more thinking outside the box with their characters...like you did with that one.
It sure was Wee Jass. Loved her ever since I read her tiny description in the 3.0 Player's Handbook. A goddess with Paladins, Clerics, Wizards and Necromancers beneath the same banner is awesome, and I've always appreciated Intelligence in a lady.She worshipped a LN goddess of witchcraft, magic, and undeath.Wee Jas by any chance? That was Zhaorae's patron as well. She was a Ruby Knight Vindicator (or she would have been, if the campaign hadn't died; PrC for Divine Caster+Martial Maneuver user from Bo9S, Rae was a Pally/Crusader) and was part of the Cult of the Green Lady in AoW.
Rae fought with a bladed flail, was more intimidating than diplomatic, left the smooth talking to her CG Rogue brother or CG Warlock sister, had the Wisdom of a sizeable rock, and was the most wretched cook on this side of Oerth.
Amen. She and Olidammara (SERIOUSLY! A THIEF DEITY WHO ISN'T EVIL!) have always been my favorite Greyhawk gods. Hieroneous and Hextor are pretty cool runners-up though.
Seriously though, what possesses people to go thousands of posts deep about monks? I think that is more annoying than me asking about paladins and getting 50 to a hundred replies.
On top of the things Ashiel brought up, it seems to be a popular lightning rod for the eternal "role-player vs. power-gamer" argument that continues to persist despite most people being familiar with the Stormwind Fallacy.
I also think a lot of why the monk threads keep going on and on and on boils down to this.
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I like to read this every so often, I like the ideas it put forwards about paladins, their work and their code. Lessons for Paladins
I'm new.
What is 'The Stormwind Fallacy'?
The Stormwind Fallacy was coined by Tempest Stormwind (a hero of mine back on the Wizards of the Coast boards). Here is a copy of the actual post made by Tempest Stormwind on the subject.
Originally Posted by Tempest Stormwind
Tempest Stormwind
05-15-06, 03:58 PM
I still stand by the argument that this is a fundamental difference between old school (basic D&D: 1 race/class, AD&D: very limted multi-classing) vrs new school (I buy a book and there is a class in their and I want it gimmie gimmie). The trend I see is old school = roleplayers, new school = optomizers.Note to New school people: Don't listen to what you hear, you aren't a dork if you roleplay. It is ok to indulge in what D&D is all about, roleplay. If you try it and have a good DM, I guarantee you'll have a blast and won't care so much about optomizing.
Okay, that's it.I'm hereby proposing a new logical fallacy. It's not a new idea, but maybe with a catchy name (like the Oberoni Fallacy) it will catch on.
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy
Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa.Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game.
Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse roleplayer if he optimizes, and vice versa.
Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically roleplayed better than an optimized one, and vice versa.(I admit that there are some diehards on both sides -- the RP fanatics who refuse to optimize as if strong characters were the mark of the Devil and the min/max munchkins who couldn't RP their way out of a paper bag without setting it on fire -- though I see these as extreme examples. The vast majority of people are in between, and thus the generalizations hold. The key word is 'automatically')
Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's gameplay. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Roleplaying deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else.
A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other.Claiming that an optimizer cannot roleplay (or is participating in a playstyle that isn't supportive of roleplaying) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
How does this impact "builds"? Simple.
In one extreme (say, Pun-Pun), they are thought experiments. Optimization tests that are not intended to see actual gameplay. Because they do not see gameplay, they do not commit the fallacy.
In the other extreme, you get the drama queens. They could care less about the rules, and are, essentially, playing free-form RP. Because the game is not necessary to this particular character, it doesn't fall into the fallacy.
By playing D&D, you opt in to an agreement of sorts -- the rules describe the world you live in, including yourself. To get the most out of those rules, in the same way you would get the most out of yourself, you must optimize in some respect (and don't look at me funny; you do it already, you just don't like to admit it. You don't need multiclassing or splatbooks to optimize). However, because it is a role-playing game, you also agree to play a role. This is dependent completely on you, and is independent of the rules.
And no, this isn't dependent on edition, or even what roleplaying game you're doing. If you are playing a roleplaying game with any form of rules or regulation, this fallacy can apply. The only difference is the nature of the optimization (based on the rules of that game; Tri-Stat optimizes differently than d20) or the flavor of the roleplay (based on the setting; Exalted feels different from Cthulu).
Conclusion: D&D, like it or not, has elements of both optimization AND roleplay in it. Any game that involves rules has optimization, and any role-playing game has roleplay. These are inherent to the game.
They go hand-in-hand in this sort of game. Deal with it. And in the name of all that is good and holy, stop committing the Stormwind Fallacy in the meantime.
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Amen. She and Olidammara (SERIOUSLY! A THIEF DEITY WHO ISN'T EVIL!) have always been my favorite Greyhawk gods. Hieroneous and Hextor are pretty cool runners-up though.It sure was Wee Jass. Loved her ever since I read her tiny description in the 3.0 Player's Handbook. A goddess with Paladins, Clerics, Wizards and Necromancers beneath the same banner is awesome, and I've always appreciated Intelligence in a lady.She worshipped a LN goddess of witchcraft, magic, and undeath.Wee Jas by any chance? That was Zhaorae's patron as well. She was a Ruby Knight Vindicator (or she would have been, if the campaign hadn't died; PrC for Divine Caster+Martial Maneuver user from Bo9S, Rae was a Pally/Crusader) and was part of the Cult of the Green Lady in AoW.
Rae fought with a bladed flail, was more intimidating than diplomatic, left the smooth talking to her CG Rogue brother or CG Warlock sister, had the Wisdom of a sizeable rock, and was the most wretched cook on this side of Oerth.
Indeed. I especially loved the vestige in the Tome of Magic who stole his soul from Olidammara. If you haven't seen it, it's awesome. It's a vestige spirit-thingy who is kind of like a jester who juggles countless strange objects and bestows upon the binder aspects that are very rogue-like and full of trickery. The story goes like this, paraphrased and summarized.
The immortal vestige was once a devout priest and thief of Olidammara. One of his most loyal followers, and a true believer in his creed. Then, upon his death bead, he renounced publicly his worship of Olidammara and his beliefs in him. At first the god was furious, only to quickly catch on he did it as a testament to his faith, for in doing so he had stolen his own soul away from the god of thieves. A sort of homage that only his god would appreciate. And appreciate it he did in fact. But now Oli had a problem. He didn't want this subject to go on to some OTHER god's afterlife. Oh no. So he immortalized him as a vestige. Very cool. :)
Yes, that's the way and as a general method could work for many different paladin spins, each equally absorbing and satisfying to play!
People need to do more thinking outside the box with their characters...like you did with that one.
Thank you very much sir. I appreciate that. ^-^
I'm old. What is "The Stormwind Fallacy"? Just realized that Paladins and anti paladins share an unprecedented parallel to Jedi and Sith. At least as people generally percieve all four:"extreme absolutes".
Indeed. I especially loved the vestige in the Tome of Magic who stole his soul from Olidammara. If you haven't seen it, it's awesome. It's a vestige spirit-thingy who is kind of like a jester who juggles countless strange objects and bestows upon the binder aspects that are very rogue-like and full of trickery. The story goes like this, paraphrased and summarized.Amen. She and Olidammara (SERIOUSLY! A THIEF DEITY WHO ISN'T EVIL!) have always been my favorite Greyhawk gods. Hieroneous and Hextor are pretty cool runners-up though.It sure was Wee Jass. Loved her ever since I read her tiny description in the 3.0 Player's Handbook. A goddess with Paladins, Clerics, Wizards and Necromancers beneath the same banner is awesome, and I've always appreciated Intelligence in a lady.She worshipped a LN goddess of witchcraft, magic, and undeath.Wee Jas by any chance? That was Zhaorae's patron as well. She was a Ruby Knight Vindicator (or she would have been, if the campaign hadn't died; PrC for Divine Caster+Martial Maneuver user from Bo9S, Rae was a Pally/Crusader) and was part of the Cult of the Green Lady in AoW.
Rae fought with a bladed flail, was more intimidating than diplomatic, left the smooth talking to her CG Rogue brother or CG Warlock sister, had the Wisdom of a sizeable rock, and was the most wretched cook on this side of Oerth.
ANDROMALIUS! =D Yes, much love for Tome of Magic and the Binder.
OOOH yeah...one of my first DM's was a drama club freak that said I couldn't roleplay because I made a minotaur fighter with a 19 strength!(equivalent to a modern 23 or 24 respectively). He was all about that fatally flawed character stuff and was generally an elitist pseudo intellectual that liked to believe he was terminally unique and superior to all other life forms around him. MAN I despised that guy! Had fun smashing his npc's though, and I did roleplay the character, as a principled brute seeking either martial mastery or a "beautiful death" the guy was too self absorbed to see it though.
I'm old. What is "The Stormwind Fallacy"?
It's the idea that being a "rollplayer" and a "roleplayer" aren't mutually exclusive. That you can run a well-optimized character that is quite cunningly built, yet also be a great roleplayer at the same time.
But tell us how you really feel about this DM.
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Thankyou Ashiel! : )
Though I never heard the term before yesterday, I already understood and agreed with this insight.
I tend to optimise as much as I can (apart from PFS, strangely), and also put a huge amount of thought into background and role-play.
I see myself as balanced. However, when I play with a group of 'role-players' they see me as a powergamer, and when I play with a group of 'roll-players' they wonder why I'm wasting everybody's time with this 'talking' nonsense! ''Let's get back to the game!''
: /
I did roleplay the character, as a principled brute seeking either martial mastery or a "beautiful death" the guy was too self absorbed to see it though.
I've seen a few people who would have called this "excuse roleplay" and said it was nothing more than a flimsy attempt to justify your powergameyness. (Had a 10+ page argument with one of them, even. Thankfully he's gone now. Hasn't posted in months.) Sadly, there is no convincing some people.
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I see it as a GM wanting to control not just the game world but the characters(a players only in game property)so by extension the players themselves. That is no way to GM a game meant for a group of people to enjoy, go write and direct a play if that's what you want, at least there is a potential gain there AND you get the desired level of control over your players.
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Thankyou Ashiel! : )
Though I never heard the term before yesterday, I already understood and agreed with this insight.
I tend to optimise as much as I can (apart from PFS, strangely), and also put a huge amount of thought into background and role-play.
I see myself as balanced. However, when I play with a group of 'role-players' they see me as a powergamer, and when I play with a group of 'roll-players' they wonder why I'm wasting everybody's time with this 'talking' nonsense! ''Let's get back to the game!''
: /
Sounds much the way I feel, and I know your pain. I have been accused of being a bad roleplayer for having decently made characters in some games, and lamented that I'm wasting time with that talking nonsense in others as well. Since this bleeds heavily into another thread going on at the moment, I figured I'd share a few excerpts from posts I made.
Definitions vary. Wikipedia's coverage of powergaming mostly focuses on the darker side with a very tiny bit on the term as it collectively expands to things like videogames.
For some of us, power gamer is as much about knowledge and efficiency as it is about being actually powerful. For example, I know that having a +2 Intelligence means my character is pretty good at Craft (Cooking) by virtue of her baseline attributes, so I don't need to "waste" skill points into Craft (Cooking) to represent the fact my character cooks better than your average person. And yes, this is a real example, because I do think about my characters in such mundane ways (I wrote a little commentary about enjoying cooking and camping and the little fun parts of being an adventurer that aren't all ambushes and trollslaying in my adventuring guidebook).
Power gaming also, to me, implies that you try to do things well. If my job is to support my team, then I want to do it well. If my job is to crowd control enemies, then I want to do it well. If my job is to improvise a solution based on current conditions (as with a generalist bag o' tricks wizard) I will do what I can to know the tools at my disposal, what I can use them for, and how I can use them to best achieve the goals that my friends and I have. That is all, in itself, a form of power gaming. In fact, even the desire to reach 20th level is in itself an aspect of power gaming (just as taking the extra effort to raise your party to the highest level in a computer RPG because you can).
The biggest problems I've seen that are blamed on power gaming are not actually connected to power gaming. Jerk players who want to make characters who are stronger than everyone else so as to boss them around for example. The problem is a jerk player. Another great example is the Stormwind Fallacy (coined by a hero of mine, Tempest Stormwind whose posts I adored back on the WotC boards) where people see folks who aren't very deep into the roleplay aspect of the roleplaying game but are pretty good at the game portion and so they often end up with mechanically awesome characters who are roleplayed like bricks with 22 Strength named Bob (directly contrasted by the Drama Queen who can't figure out that -2 is worse than +0 and thinks that his peg-legged goblin Paladin with an 8 Charisma is an inspired and truly interesting individual to which you show be thankful for his very presence making making your RPing experience worthwhile).
Most of us tend to fall in between such extremes of course. I mean, I will happily admit to being a power gamer. I'm proud of it. I'd wear it on a button or badge if I had one. I'm happy to discuss the good and the bad aspects of power gaming, attempt to dispel some myths, and more than happily talk about my character's slightly unusual past while my character adds a dash of spices to the cooking pot and tells campfire stories.
As a sort of side note to this discussion, in that situation I'd put at least 1 point into Craft(Cooking), not to represent that the character is better at cooking than your average person, but to represent that the character is better at cooking than all the other craft skills. The +2 Int means I'm better than average at all crafts. Investing 1 point in cooking means I've specifically practiced that.Ah but I didn't say I wanted her to be better at cooking than anything else that she did. Just that I wanted her to be a pretty good cook. If I put a full rank into it, I'd have a +6 cooking. Not really what I want. I'm doing exactly what I want with the game. In this case my character has a lot of little mild talents which are slightly above average but below professional level (if she put the extra effort, as in skill points, she could turn pro) but she's content to just cooking slightly above average meals, drawing nice pictures, and just generally being a creative spirit.
I got what was appropriate for my character concept out of the mechanics. No more, no less. Putting a rank into that skill would entail more than I wanted.
Contrast to a psion I once build whose very high Intelligent made her something of a pretender. With a +5 to all Craft skills, she was a professional everything. That was part of her character actually. She carried around random tools, wore a tool belt, had weird goggles with various magnifying glasses on them, and was pretty funny when people asked her professions and she honestly gave them different answers, or asked
"Which one?"NPC: "The trade by which you make your living?"
PC: "I'm an alchemist, an armorsmith, a blacksmith, a jeweler, a carpenter, a painter, a sculptor, an engineer, a tramsmith, and locksmith".
NPC: "Err...now you're just pulling my leg."
PC: "I get bored easily and need something to occupy my time." *says this while drawing a picture of the person asking her questions.*Ultimately, my powergaming is reflected in learning and understanding the system and utilizing the system to my needs. Part of that is understanding my scales. +0 Cooking is average. +2 Cooking is good cooking. +4 Cooking would be professional. +6 would be high professional. +10 is masterful. I'm a fan of dipping skills as well for this reason. Pathfinder is very friendly for making well wounded characters through dipping skills.
For example, I can drop a few points into Linguistics to learn a few extra languages to show my character's familiarity with X nation or culture because extended time was spent there, even if it's not an automatic or bonus language for me. I could drop a few points into Heal to be competent enough to give first-aid for mundane things. A dash of Sense Motive isn't going to guard me from a heroic-level liar but I might smell a rat of a more mundane variety. A single rank in a knowledge skill means I can at least attempt DC 11+ checks when I normally couldn't, which means I have at least studied the subject beyond the norm a little (even if I might not have a degree :P).
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And at least one of those monk threads is like two years old!..COME ON PEOPLE!
I think it is just the thing to do here. kinda like kids start smoking not because they really like it, they are just around it enough that they go with it. Hang around with the wrong sort here and you will be crying about monks and demanding a fix soon enough.
She worshipped a LN goddess of witchcraft, magic, and undeath.Wee Jas by any chance? That was Zhaorae's patron as well. She was a Ruby Knight Vindicator (or she would have been, if the campaign hadn't died; PrC for Divine Caster+Martial Maneuver user from Bo9S, Rae was a Pally/Crusader) and was part of the Cult of the Green Lady in AoW.
Rae fought with a bladed heavy flail, was more intimidating than diplomatic, left the smooth talking to her CG Rogue brother or CG Warlock sister, had the Wisdom of a sizeable rock, and was the most wretched cook on this side of Oerth.
That character sounds like she was full of win.
Now I wish I remembered my own idea for a Ruby Knight Vindicator.
Wasn't Paul S. Kemps Justicar character a paladin? He was a BADASS!
She worshipped a LN goddess of witchcraft, magic, and undeath.Wee Jas by any chance? That was Zhaorae's patron as well. She was a Ruby Knight Vindicator (or she would have been, if the campaign hadn't died; PrC for Divine Caster+Martial Maneuver user from Bo9S, Rae was a Pally/Crusader) and was part of the Cult of the Green Lady in AoW.
Rae fought with a bladed heavy flail, was more intimidating than diplomatic, left the smooth talking to her CG Rogue brother or CG Warlock sister, had the Wisdom of a sizeable rock, and was the most wretched cook on this side of Oerth.
That character sounds like she was full of win.
Now I wish I remembered my own idea for a Ruby Knight Vindicator.
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I have said some of this before (in my My Perspective on the Paladin's Code thread), but I will repeat it here.
The Paladins Code of Chivalry
Recently, there have been a number of threads on the Code of a Paladin on the Paizo boards. It has been rather surprising to me how many people appear to want to treat this Code as merely a mechanic of the class to justify the raw power of the Paladin. That isn't the point of the Paladin's Code of Conduct. It should not be merely a means to off-set those parts of the class that grant power. Abiding for a set of rules only to gain power is not what a Paladin is about; in fact, it is the antithesis of what a Paladin is.
The origin of the Paladin was based on the knights of Charlemagne, and on Sir Galahad from the Arthurian legends. Such beliefs are not suited for everyone: neither Arthur himself, nor Lancelot, nor any other of his Knights of the Round Table were Paladins. Because the path of a Paladin is a hard path to follow. It is an act of faith and belief that the Paladin must live, everyday, so that he is true to himself.
The Paladin's Code is (rather, that it should be) a guide for how they live their life. It is with good reason that Paladin's are restricted to a Lawful Good alignment. This is because the Paladin (above and beyond all other classes) is a character of staunch moral and ethical beliefs, who sacrifices his own freedom of actions (of choices) to uphold a higher sacred trust.
Paladins are not just fighters by another name; they are more than a knight in shining armor. They are (or should be) pious and virtuous, honorable and merciful, charitable and chivalrous. In all things. Acting in such a fashion should not be something a person who plays a Paladin should view as a restriction upon his actions, it is merely the way which a Paladin (the character) lives his life, because that is who and what he is. A Lawful Good man or woman of high morals and impeccable ethics, who does what is RIGHT. Not because he is FORCED TO, but because he CHOOSES TO.
His Code does not restrict him; a Paladin's ethics and morals and his very life makes him live up to his beliefs, to uphold the highest virtues of Law and Good.
Let's look at the Code of Conduct as presented in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook.
A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
There is nothing that inherently wrong with this Code, except that it is vague. Many players, whether because they want the rules spelled out for them, or because of a desire to garner a Paladin's power without restriction on his actions, treat these words as nothing more than law that can be twisted, obeyed by the letter while forsaking the spirit of the words.
That should not happen when you play a Paladin. A Paladin lives by the spirit of the law, not the letter. He, and his deity, knows that absolute and unswerving allegiance to a Code is a path towards Evil. Laws must be adjusted for circumstances, to show compassion and mercy, and to ensure that Good is upheld. Evil actions, and the breaking of the law must be punished, but a Paladin never (in my opinion) exacts a punishment greater than the crime.
For my own game, I modify the Code of Conduct above. I use a version of the old Medieval Code of Chivalry which represents what Paladins in my game should life up to. Cavaliers and many Fighters even, are taught the Code of Chivalry, although they can freely ignore it (as many Knights did in history). Paladins though, should break the code only in the direst of circumstances, and only for the right reasons.
I shall give oath to fear God and maintain His Church; to serve the liege lord in valor and in faith; to protect the weak and defenseless; to give succor to widows and orphans; to refrain from the wanton giving of offence; to live by honor and for glory; to despise pecuniary reward; to fight for the welfare of all; to obey those placed in authority; to guard the honor of fellow Knights; to eschew unfairness, meanness, and deceit; to keep faith; to at all times to speak the truth; to persevere to the end in any enterprise begun; to respect the honor of all; to never to refuse a challenge from an equal; to never to turn the back upon a foe.
Not so different from the Pathfinder Code, now is it? I prefer this one, however, though some might think it more archaic. Why? Because it fits the theme of the class.
1. to fear God and maintain His Church. Paladins in my game must choose a Lawful Good deity. I run a Greyhawk campaign and although such Gods and Goddess as Pelor and Ehlona (both NG) represent GOOD, neither can have Paladins in their service. There are no 'paladins of an ideal'. This is because the very concept of Paladin means little without a God (or Goddess) and a Church. This places Paladins in the strict hierarchy of their Church, their religion, their faith. They are not priests, nor clerics, but are Holy Warriors dedicated to the ideals of their chosen deity.
2. to serve the liege lord in valor and in faith. Paladins hold a dual responsibility. Not just to the Church whose faith they hold dear, but to the secular authorities of the realm. They are Knights and their service is that of all Knights who have sworn oath. Having the right, in game, to add 'Sir' or 'Dame' before one's name is a very powerful tool in the game itself. As such, a Paladin should, of his own will, faithfully serve his temporal lord, much as his does his spiritual one. However, that part about faith. It is a two-way street; an unjust temporal lord is one that a Paladin cannot serve. His calling is higher and he is not merely a Knight, but a Servant of God.
3. to protect the weak and defenseless. This is the core of a Paladin. He adventures not for reward for himself, but to serve those in need, as much as he does his Church and his Liege. He defends those who cannot otherwise defend themselves, and he does his best to ensure that they do not suffer at the hands of others.
4. to give succor to widows and orphans. Charity. Paladins are charitable and generous by nature. It goes hand in hand with helping people who need the aid and assistance of the Paladin. If he is able, he does not let others go hungry or without shelter. He is no miser who hoards his wealth, for the Paladin knows that what he uses to help others will be returned to him in full. This is the epitome of the Lawful Good character in a nutshell. He helps those who suffer, and the Paladin should follow that ideal.
5. to refrain from the wanton giving of offence. Respect. Paladins respect all life. They are not braggarts, nor do they fling witty cutting barbs designed to insult or injure another's sense of self-worth. They hold themselves to a higher standard: and they live their lives by that standard.
6. to live by honor and for glory. Not to say that Paladins don't have flaws, LOL. They seek glory, but the best Paladins seek glory not for themselves, but for their Church and their Liege. They do their best to live their lives in an honorable fashion. A Paladins word should be his bond; for he will not break it if it can be avoided.
7. to despise pecuniary reward. Ah, the wailings of munchkins doth arise in full. A Paladin doesn't need a monetary award to do what is right. He acts because he can, not because someone offers him money to do the deed. Wealth, for its own sake, is never something that a Paladin covets. This doesn’t mean that a Paladin will not gather wealth, but rather it is an instruction that when a task is the right thing to do, demanding payment for that task is wrong.
8. to fight for the welfare of all. This stanza refers to Justice. A Paladin should believe that all life is worthwhile. That all people should be treated with a basic modicum of dignity and respect, regardless of their station in life or what misfortune's may have fallen onto them. The Paladin will oppose those who do not care for the basic welfare of their own people, be he a Lord or a Knave; a Church elder or a King.
9. to obey those placed in authority. This is not the same thing as all authority, no matter how legitimate such authority might be. This refers to those placed in authority over the Paladin. His Church, his Liege, and those whom they appoint as his superior and commander. Sheriffs and bailiffs and magistrates who serve them; generals and commanders who lead their troops.
10. to guard the honor of fellow knights. A Paladin is not one to let anyone speak ill of a brother in service of the Church or the Liege. Such men, by their oaths, have sacrificed themselves for the greater good; and for that respect is due, not malicious speech or gossip. If he suspects that a fellow Paladin or Cavalier or Cleric or Fighter has put himself in a position where their honor is compromised, a Paladin must speak up and confront them.
11. to eschew unfairness, meanness, and deceit. A Paladin does not take advantage of others. He does not use poison. He does not ambush his foes from hiding, or assault them in the darkness of an alley from behind. Others might, but not a Paladin. Note that there is no restriction upon what a Paladins allies might do; only for the Paladin himself. While a Paladin will not lead an enemy into an ambush, he will not chastise his companions for hiding themselves . . . for not everyone is destined to live their lives by the Paladins Code. And the Paladin knows that.
12. to keep faith. Faith, in this instance, does not mean belief in a God or Goddess or in following the precepts of a Church. Rather, it means that the Paladin will remain true. He can expected to hold onto his given word, he can be trusted, he is stalwart and noble in bearing and his actions.
13. to at all times speak the truth. Truth is a very important issue for a Paladin. A Paladin does not lie, where it can be avoided. However, I would just remind you that truth is very much, at times, dependent upon one's point of view.
14. to persevere to the end in any enterprise begun. Paladins do not give up. They do not stop. They do not quit when the going gets tough. Once a Paladin makes a commitment, he is expected to carry through and finish what he has started. This is not the same thing as a Paladin cannot retreat. Please, Paladins are not obligated to act in a suicidal fashion . . . if he cannot overcome an enemy then he will withdraw. And he will find another way to defeat that foe. He will continue to strive to accomplish his goal, to defeat the Evil that he faces . . . and he will find that way.
15. to respect the honor of all. This precept was originally ‘respect the honor of women’, but I changed it. A Paladin honors the choices that people make in their own lives. Whether that is a noble-woman who gives up her birthright to become an adventurer, or a skilled woodsman who leaves behind his village to become a merchant, he honors their decisions to live their own lives. And he protects those decisions from men and women alike who would take that choice away; whether by forcing a woman into an arranged marriage, or by enslaving that merchant, or by other means.
16. to never to refuse a challenge from an equal. Honorable combat is part and parcel of being a Paladin. Although he might well try to avoid lethal combat or even try a Diplomatic means to resolve such a challenge, in the end if a matter can only be settled by the sword, he is a Holy Warrior.
17. to never to turn the back upon a foe. Evil creatures are, by their very nature, the antithesis of a Paladin. Trusting one to act against his own nature, to providing him an opportunity to strike at your most vulnerable point, is not something a Paladin should engage in. He must respect his foes, and he must acknowledge that given the opportunity, many dishonest, untrustworthy, and evil opponents will take advantage of any opportunity he gives them. Accordingly, he is warned against allowing them that opportunity.
This Code is merely what I use, for those wishing to play Paladins in my game. Use what you will from this; borrow all that you want. Just remember this: no God or Goddess that has Paladins as servants would go so far to strip their powers for a minor violation. They may well require an atonement and a confession of the action that was not worthy, but a Paladins Fall should be based on more than telling a woman, "No, that dress doesn't make you look fat," even if the dress does make her look fat.
Pathfinder is a game, and it is a game which we play to have fun and enjoy ourselves in the company of men and women whom we like. Arguments and debates over every last comma are something for lawyers, not gamers. Have fun. That is what we are here for.
I hope that my words might make some sense and give you some idea of how I see the Paladin's Code of Conduct. Not as a straitjacket, but as a personification of what a character of Lawful Good alignment simply does. Why? Because he is Lawful Good.
Now, there are times when a Paladin must break his code, and when that happens, the DM should take into consideration all the reasons why. In my game, I categorize these into venial violations of the Code and mortal violations.
This mirrors to the real-world definitions of sin by the Roman Catholic Church: venial meaning that the violation is a lesser infraction that does not automatically result in a Paladin being stripped of his power. It still requires that the Paladin recognize his violation, confess it to a cleric or priest of his clergy, and atone (either via the spell or through performing a deed of contrition [more on that to follow]). Whereas a mortal violation is an infraction so dramatically and grossly opposed to what the Paladin claims as his beliefs that it is unforgiveable. Now, to be a mortal violation, the Paladin must willingly and knowingly commit the act, having made a deliberate decision to do so, fully in the knowledge that the act is against his stated beliefs, and choosing to act in such a manner regardless.
A mortal infraction consists of (but is not limited to) willingly changing one's alignment to any other than Lawful Good, the deliberate and willing commission of an evil act (torture, murder, rape, etc.), and becoming an apostate to (or the recanting of) one's faith in his own Deity. Such actions always result in the Paladin immediately losing his powers. Mortal infractions normally result in a permanent Fall, although there are a rare few who have managed to atone for even these dark deeds; but the road is seldom travelled. Many Paladins who commit mortal infractions instead eventually become Anti-Paladins.
All other infractions are, generally, considered as venial. Multiple venial infractions could well result in a Paladin being stripped of his abilities, but these are not unforgiveable sins. This includes such things as telling a lie for the right cause, or offering a disrespectful comment towards another, or failing to give honor and respect to those around him.
Deeds of contrition, are my term for acts which allow a Paladin to atone for his past deeds without the use of a spell. Such deeds are normally assigned by the church, typically when a local temple doesn't have a cleric of high enough level to cast an atonement. They always deal with Evil, they usually consist of multiple tasks, and they are always a challenge to the Paladin to complete. (In 3.5/Pathfinder game terms, any deed of contrition will consist of at least three encounters with a CR of +1, +2, and +3 to the Paladin and his adventuring party's average party level).
Undertaking a deed of contrition automatically wipes the Paladin's slate clean of any venial infractions committed by the Paladin. In order to be a deed of contrition, the Paladin must speak with a cleric of his faith and then be assigned the task: he cannot declare after the fact that an adventure he just finished is his deed.
Once a Paladin starts a deed of contrition he is expected to complete it, as a show of faith and devotion. If the Paladin willingly turns away from the deed for longer than a single day, he is stricken of his powers as if he committed a mortal infraction until he resumes his quest for the deed or renounces his faith completely.
A Paladin may receive aid and assistance from others (i.e., his party) during a deed of contrition, and XP, gold, and treasure are handed out normally. However, the Paladin must take part in all of the encounters and he must deal damage to the Evil beings he confronts.
If the Evil assigned to the Paladin as part of his deed of contrition is vanquished, then the Paladin is forgiven for his past venial infractions in full. A Paladin may only undertake a deed of contrition once each level of experience (if your Paladin is slipping more often than that, perhaps he should ask if he really wants to play a Paladin, eh?).
I know that many prefer the ‘any violation is a Fall’ ideal. But this is how I do things for my own game. Being a Paladin is hard enough without rigging the game against him and putting him in circumstances where an innocent slip of the tongue might well strip him of all his divine powers.
At least in my own opinion.
Master Arminas
I think everyone is ignoring the real question here.
What's a Paladin?
Also, Arminas and Ashiel, why are your posts always so good?
You tryin' a make the rest of us look bad?
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It's the lawful stupid who ruin things for everyone else.
Hence why personally, whenever someone at my table wants to play a paladin, I always insist they write up a code they can believably live by.
Here's mine;
Never betray the trust of another; your word is your bond.
A paladin is a man of honor. He conducts himself with honor in all his dealings, and acts with truth in all his choices.
Never knowingly speak falsehood; never misrepresent yourself in an attempt at self-enrichment.
Never take advantage of the kind or charitable nature of others. All debts owed, must be repaid in kind.
No man falls by any one action. Remember always that you are not perfect, nor will you ever be, you shall make mistakes, how you overcome them is what matters.
Grant mercy to those who ask it. Grant succor to those in need of it. Grant compassion to those who require it.
Soothe every iota of suffering that you can. Never allow another to suffer in your place. Never allow another to die in your stead.
Do not think to beggar yourself to improve the world. Live only to your needs, and not beyond or below them. A surgeon cannot cure a disease without his tools, nor can you.
Do not shirk from danger, but do not seek battle.
Unsheathe your sword only in defense; when steel is drawn, it drawn to stand between innocence and evil. You do not fight for king or country. You do not fight for Gods or prestige. You do not fight for honor or glory. You do not fight for yourself. You fight for others. You fight only to soothe suffering by curing the source.
Respect those you do not fight for. A king is ruler of his own land. A God is ruler of his own domain. Their laws are your laws.
A law that causes undue suffering is no law; do not submit to those who create such mockeries.
You are a man of ideals, not of churches or kingdoms. Ideals are your gods.
A paladin is a man of convictions, but he respects others. Do not confuse your zeal with nobility.
Do not endure those who have no respect for what you are. Accept that there are many paths, but that you are not required to walk them; provide others with an ideal to aspire to.
Love those you serve. Remember that you are one of them, and your loyalties lie to those you protect above any code.
In other words; Never betray someone's trust, never make or break a vow lightly, conduct yourself with honor and respect for others, never knowingly lie, or misrepresent yourself for your own benefit, though, realize that you are not required to answer questions completely, or correct false assumptions. Never besmirch another's reputation, never take advantage of someone's kindness, repay everything you owe, and repay every insult in kind, accept that you are imperfect, but that that is no reason not to try. Grant mercy asked of you, help others in need, be charitable and kind, as well as compassionate.
Be self-sacrificing, do not beggar yourself, temper charity and everything else with common sense, take everything in moderation,
Be courageous, but not foolhardy or arrogant, though do not be timid either. Don't go looking for fights, they'll find you, more than like,
Fight to protect others, rather than to enrich yourself, though, conversely, don't turn down a useful tool. You slay dragons and keep the magic sword because it can help you do more good, not because you're greedy (ideally)
Respect the law of the land, and the laws of your chosen god, laws that are designed to cause suffering are not laws you need respect, and you have no loyalty to the people who make them.
You have no obligation to those who do not respect you, or decry your paladinhood, accept that there are differing opinions, but that you are not required to agree. Provide a noble ideal to inspire others.
And the most important clause, these are more guidelines than actual rules /Barbossa
Don't surrender your humanity (or Dwarfanity, Elvanity, whatever)there's no reason to be aloof or an inhuman machine. (Unless of course you are an inhuman machine. I'm looking at you Warforged Paladin.)
A good paladin code, tempered by common sense (A paladin IS still meant to be a canny and intelligent warrior, as well as a noble knight after all)eliminates the people who play "Lawful Stupid" by accident, or the ones that don't know any better, since in this case, being Lawful stupid is actually against the code.
Anyone who still cleaves to lawful stupid? Well, they'd probably play an a+&~@#% no matter what class they picked.
Anyone who does start to veer off their code? Simple, give 'em fatigued for the day as a representation of poor sleep from a guilty mind.
I think everyone is ignoring the real question here.
What's a Paladin?
Also, Arminas and Ashiel, why are your posts always so good?
You tryin' a make the rest of us look bad?
Thank you sir! And no sir, not trying to make you look bad at all! Far more that I would merely like you to be entertained, or feel like you've walked away with something more than you brought as a reader! Thank you again though, I do really appreciate that. (z^-^z)
I think it's funny (and awesome) that a thread was (albeit as a joke) created to explain why people hate Paladins and most of the thread has consistent of "We love Paladins".
I think everyone is ignoring the real question here.
What's a Paladin?
Also, Arminas and Ashiel, why are your posts always so good?
You tryin' a make the rest of us look bad?
LOL. Not at all, my man, not at all.
MA
I think I could play a paladin pretty close to any of the codes I've seen, if I read thru the code before each session for a while and I could enjoy it, however my co-gm would tire of it by 6th level at the latest.
Too mundane, too predictable, too overdone.
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If it's too mundane, predictable and overdone, then why play a paladin?
That's what a paladin IS, a man defined by his ideals, one not willing to compromise them and take the easy path, someone who is willing to fight for others and be selfless.
That's what the code is there for, it's a representation of that willingness, it's not a binding contract, it's a lifestyle choice they choose to abide by.
What makes it fresh and interesting is the individual character, and how they BECOME one of these people.
Take my paladin; He's a Wiscrani, son of a minor noble from the House of Thrune and her former revolutionary husband, a wine merchant who abandoned his ethics for an easy life. They were fond of travel, feeling it made them cosmopolitan, but in turn this caused their son to develop some funny ideas about the lower classes and how they should be treated. He's nyctophobic, due to having been out on the streets after curfew and watching the Shadowbeasts shred a childhood friend.
He's not fond of fighting, due to a stint in the Chelish army where he was assigned to battlefield medic. He attempted to save an Andoren soldier who was apparently gravely injured, only to be stabbed in the gut, by the same soldier, relegating Matthias to the rear.
He returned home to the simmering disappointment of his parents, whom did accept his considerable skill as a surgeon, and sent him off to an acquaintance of theirs, a noted doctor, whom, in addition to his other talents, proved to be a powerful necromancer.
The shy paladin-to-be did his master's b#@~~-work for a number of years, until in the end, he got sick of all the cruelty he witnessed at his master's hand, fled that night, stealing a stack of scrolls, including his master's personalized formula for lichdom, and has spent the last year, wandering from place to place, trying to keep ahead of his former master, in an attempt to avoid bystanders being hurt.
On his way through Lastwall, he met a group of the knights of Ozem, whom he studied with, accepting Iomedae as his new patron, and learning the specifics of being a paladin.
He's being hunted by a succubus who wants to corrupt him, a necromancer who wants to tear him limb from limb, and yet all he really wants is to make sure no one else gets hurt.
I work by the exact same code I laid down, but would you call that predictable, overdone and mundane?
The code and the class are the groundwork, they are something to BE, what a character IS comes down to how they tackle being a paladin.
Paladins are an awesome class. There are some faulty players, however.
I think everyone is ignoring the real question here.
What's a Paladin?
Also, Arminas and Ashiel, why are your posts always so good?
You tryin' a make the rest of us look bad?
I suspect they are both over-optimising their posts.
(...sorry...wrong thread...)
Understandable.
This thread, the "Fantasy" thread, and the Optimizing thread seem to be blending together weirdly.
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I think everyone is ignoring the real question here.
What's a Paladin?
Also, Arminas and Ashiel, why are your posts always so good?
You tryin' a make the rest of us look bad?
I suspect they are both over-optimising their posts.
(...sorry...wrong thread...)
Understandable.
This thread, the "Fantasy" thread, and the Optimizing thread seem to be blending together weirdly.
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Starting Farmer McOwnage and his Daughter Candice "Eyespike" McOwnage."Papa, are we in trouble!?" - "No dear, I still have three radishes in my back pocket and a potion of heroism!" - "Awesome! Let's go kick some nazi kobold ass!"
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Bes post 2012
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What the f#!!? o.o
If you didn't get the joke, it's kind of a mish-mash of a lot of silly board stuff, because the prior poster was talking about how this thread, the fantasy thread, and the optimizing threads were getting mixed together a lot. The post is poking fun at some of the stuff from all the different threads in a comical satirical sort of way. :P
And yes. The name of the Paladin they are attempting to rescue is indeed pronounced "DM Makes Me Fall Everytime". :P