All right, I posted this on another thread, but Ciretose doesn't want that one to become another brainstorming session . . . so I decided to post it here in its own thread. As you can guess from the title, we are talking about Monks and how to overcome MAD (Multiple Ability Deficiency).
Monks as a class require moderate to high Strength (for attack rolls and damage rolls, as well as CMB), moderate to high Dexterity (for AC and reflex saves and skills), moderate to high Wisdom (for AC and will saves, and stunning fist/quivering palm DC, and ki points in the pool, and skill), moderate Constitution (they are a combat class and need to be able to take hits), and a moderate Intelligence (with 4 skill ranks per class level, that isn't a lot . . . and if you want Greater Trip or Disarm you need 13 Int for Combat Expertise).
Only stat you that you really don't care about is Charisma, with no class features based on it and just two class skills (Intimidate and Perform).
No other class, not even the Paladin, requires so many moderate to high ability scores in order to function. It is one factor in what makes a monk character created with 'lucky' die rolls sometimes a LOT more effective than one made with 15 or 20 point buy.
But what if we changed that paradigm? What I am thinking of is this:
Zen Combat (Ex): When using unarmed strikes or special monk weapons (see above), a monk may choose not add his Strength modifier on attack or damage rolls. Instead of relying upon brute force, a monk instead strikes intuitively, based upon his experience. Starting at 1st level, a monk gains a +2 bonus on all attack and damage rolls with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons, instead of his Strength modifier. He may instead apply his Strength modifier to attack and damage rolls if he so chooses, but he cannot apply both, nor may he split the bonuses (i.ee, using the class bonus for attacks and Strength bonus for damage). This bonus increases by +1 at 3rd level and every two levels gained thereafter, to a maximum bonus of +11 on attack rolls and damage rolls at 19th level.
Any penalty assessed to the monk because of a Strength ability score lower than 10 continues to apply.
This ability also applies to any feat or item which alters the ability score granting a bonus (or a penalty) on attack rolls or damage rolls.
This bonus on damage rolls does not increase or decrease for using a weapon with two hands or with an off-hand. Feats which increase Strength based damage do not apply when a monk is using his class based bonus on attack and damage rolls instead of Strength.
Okay, the name is a work in progress, and so is the ability. Now, what I want to do here is to take a look at this, determine whether or not it would work, and clean it up so that the wording works as intended. And for that, I would welcome your assistance, your critiques, your comments, and your suggestions.
Now, at low levels, this means that your monk might well have a lower bonus granted by this class feature than your actual Strength ability modifier. That's okay, because you can choose to use the bonus above (+2 at 1st level, increasing by +1 at every odd level thereafter), or your own Strength bonus on a round-by-round basis. So, it doesn't obsolete feats like the Dragon Style chain and if you find a +4 belt of giant strength, you don't feel like it is wasted.
Giving a bonus of +2 at 1st level is equal to a Strength score of 14. This goes up (effectively) to a 16 at 3rd level, an 18th at 5th level, a 20 at 7th level, a 22 at 9th level, a 24 at 11th level, a 26 at 13th level, a 28 at 15th level, a 30 at 17th level, and a 32 at 19th level. Which keeps paces really well with a martial character based on either Strength or Dexterity who puts his level advance ability scores into that single stat, buys a +5 inherent bonus, and gets a +6 enhancement bonus. By 20th level, a character who started with a 20 might have as much as a 36, for a total bonus of +13 . . . just +2 over the monk.
Yeah, I know the arguments, well just boost your own Strength. Well, I don't want to play Hulk Smash when I'm playing (or running) a monk. And neither do the majority of monk players that I know. And if you boost Dex, you have to reduce your enhancement bonus by +1 for an agile weapon to also get damage, or you are still doing your Strength modifier in damage.
Overall, I see this ability as accomplishing several things:
1. Reduces MAD, as Strength is no longer as important to the character. Remember 1st edition? Back in those days, monks didn't get ANY bonus to hit or damage from high strength.
2. Zen combat keeps pace with a martial type character scaling as the monk gains experience. By 20th level, most martials will have at least a 30 in their governing ability score . . . which is a +10 bonus (and they are likely to have a 34-36, which is a +12-13 bonus). The monk will be able to keep up, despite the call for other ability scores which have no affect on his attack and damage rolls.
3. This ability is tied to monk level, so there is no worry about other classes dipping to grab it up. They can, but unless the add levels in MONK, the only get their Strength or +2 before 3rd level monk.
4. Strength buffs and magical enhancements (belts of giant strength, potions of bull's strength, etc.) are no longer as necessary for the monk, unless he just wants to carry more, and since penalties apply to the zen combat bonus, there is a practical base minimum of 10 on Strength. Meaning the monk cannot dump it.
It is not a complicated system, but it is one that reduces the overall MADness of a Monk; in a way it is kind of an elegant solution to that problem that fits the theme of the monk. Your thoughts?
Master Arminas
I think it's a bit too complicated.
What if monks could add their Wisdom modifier to damage rolls instead of Strength? Or in addition to it, so they don't simply dump Str?
I think it's a bit too complicated.
What if monks could add their Wisdom modifier to damage rolls instead of Strength? Or in addition to it, so they don't simply dump Str?
Well, every cleric and druid in the land would take one level of monk, especially if Wisdom added to Strength and didn't replace it. Quarterstaff is a monk weapon as well as a cleric/druid weapon, and cleric/monks can take Crusader's Flurry to get their diety's chosen weapon as a special monk weapon.
Weapon Finesse is already out there . . . but if that were a fix, then we would be seeing high-Dex Weapon Finesse monks all over the place. We don't, because you still need Strength for damage. so, if you got Wisdom on attack rolls, you'd still need Str for damage rolls. Conversely, if you got Wisdom on damage rolls, you'd need Str or Dex to hit. If it applied to both, the cleric is the big winner of the day (and the druid with Feral Combat Training!). More so, if Wisdom bonus applies in addition to Strength.
MA
Thank you for understanding, by the way.
No problem. And did Erik Mona--the MAN himself--just reply to my thread? My god, if only Greyhawk came back, I could die happy. :)
MA
I think it's a bit too complicated.
What if monks could add their Wisdom modifier to damage rolls instead of Strength? Or in addition to it, so they don't simply dump Str?
Well, every cleric and druid in the land would take one level of monk, especially if Wisdom added to Strength and didn't replace it. Quarterstaff is a monk weapon as well as a cleric/druid weapon, and cleric/monks can take Crusader's Flurry to get their diety's chosen weapon as a special monk weapon.
Weapon Finesse is already out there . . . but if that were a fix, then we would be seeing high-Dex Weapon Finesse monks all over the place. We don't, because you still need Strength for damage. so, if you got Wisdom on attack rolls, you'd still need Str for damage rolls. Conversely, if you got Wisdom on damage rolls, you'd need Str or Dex to hit. If it applied to both, the cleric is the big winner of the day (and the druid with Feral Combat Training!). More so, if Wisdom bonus applies in addition to Strength.
MA
True... What if Wis-to-damage only applied to monk weapons and unarmed strikes and only after a few levels? Say, 5th level, like a Gunslinger's Gun Training? Or if the Wis modifier only applied up to monk levels, kinda like a Duelist's Int modifier to AC?
Druids and Clerics could get it, but they'd be giving up 5 spell casting levels.
As a second note, what if the Monks IUS stayed at 1d6 damage but at some level, increased it's critical threat range to 19~20 and, as long as the monk had at least 1 ki point, got some kind of enhancement?
I know this is going to be shot down quickly because I'm not putting a lot of thought into it, but what if monks got a bonus to hit equal to their ki pool? It would obviously fluctuate but it would be based on Wisdom and only they could use it. This idea isn't even close to perfect but I think it could have some merit. It would also allow monks to take Extra Ki to boost their attack bonus, but it would cost them one of their feats that they may not be able to afford to give up. I don't think they can take it as a bonus feat (I may be wrong on that).
honestly i just started houseruling that monk hitpoints are based on wisdom not con and my players seem to like it. Admittedly its not as creative as zen combat or other homebrew builds, but with my group of players archetype compatibility is very important.
Just some ideas: replace strength with wisdom for hit at 1st level, at 5th level wis replaces str for damage as well. The thought process, for me, is that the monk first learns how to aim his attacks intuitively, after gaining more combat experience his attacks become more reflex than physical exertion.
Then on top of this give the monk a +1 bonus to hit and damage at 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, 20th levels. These would be bonuses due to the strengthening of the monk's life force, ki/chi. These bonuses would count as magical bonuses for all intent and purpose. In addition, the monk's unarmed strike would count as axiomatic at 5th level then adamantine at 15th.
I know this is going to be shot down quickly because I'm not putting a lot of thought into it, but what if monks got a bonus to hit equal to their ki pool? It would obviously fluctuate but it would be based on Wisdom and only they could use it. This idea isn't even close to perfect but I think it could have some merit. It would also allow monks to take Extra Ki to boost their attack bonus, but it would cost them one of their feats that they may not be able to afford to give up. I don't think they can take it as a bonus feat (I may be wrong on that).
The trouble with this is that I would find it very difficult to justify ever spending a ki point. +4 AC for one round is seldom worth -1 to hit on all attacks for the rest of the day.
I think it's a bit too complicated.
What if monks could add their Wisdom modifier to damage rolls instead of Strength? Or in addition to it, so they don't simply dump Str?
Well, every cleric and druid in the land would take one level of monk, especially if Wisdom added to Strength and didn't replace it. Quarterstaff is a monk weapon as well as a cleric/druid weapon, and cleric/monks can take Crusader's Flurry to get their diety's chosen weapon as a special monk weapon.
Weapon Finesse is already out there . . . but if that were a fix, then we would be seeing high-Dex Weapon Finesse monks all over the place. We don't, because you still need Strength for damage. so, if you got Wisdom on attack rolls, you'd still need Str for damage rolls. Conversely, if you got Wisdom on damage rolls, you'd need Str or Dex to hit. If it applied to both, the cleric is the big winner of the day (and the druid with Feral Combat Training!). More so, if Wisdom bonus applies in addition to Strength.
MA
True... What if Wis-to-damage only applied to monk weapons and unarmed strikes and only after a few levels? Say, 5th level, like a Gunslinger's Gun Training? Or if the Wis modifier only applied up to monk levels, kinda like a Duelist's Int modifier to AC?
Druids and Clerics could get it, but they'd be giving up 5 spell casting levels.
As a second note, what if the Monks IUS stayed at 1d6 damage but at some level, increased it's critical threat range to 19~20 and, as long as the monk had at least 1 ki point, got some kind of enhancement?
The Zen Archer archetype uses Wis instead of Dex to hit starting with Level 3. Something like that makes it less likely that other classes would take a single-level dip.
Maybe a combination of the two? At first level, you can use 1/2 your Wis bonus instead of your str bonus for to-hit and damage. At 3rd level, add your full Wis bonus. Something like that?
Alternatively, adjusting the ki powers to improve melee combat could be helpful, too. Some possibilities here are
Use a ki point to hit the touch AC
As long as you have ki, add your full Wis bonus to attack and damage
Use a ki point to add double your Wis bonus to damage
Use a ki point to bypass 5 pts of DR
Use 2 ki points to "bane" your unarmed strike
I agree that increasing the bonuses is much better than increasing the damage die. I'd rather see the IUS stay at 1d6 and add straight attack and damage bonus (much like a fighter does with weapon training). You could always create a ki power to increase the damage die if you wanted (use a ki point to count your IUS as one size category larger, maybe).
I prefer using Wisdom to hit with monk weapons and unarmed strikes for monks as a solution for MAD, myself - it's much quicker and simpler. It also allows for a more balanced approach for the monk with the physical stats.
Another idea that came up with to resolve the fact that Monks are very MAD was this (credit to Ilja for the concept and name, I just simplified the mechanics):
Disciple of Perfection
When you gain a +1 advancement bonus to an ability score from level increases, for every four class levels you have in the Monk class you gain that +1 to an additional different ability score as well. Hence at 4th level monk you gain +1 to two ability scores. At 8th level monk you gain +1 in three ability scores, at 12th level +1 to four ability scores, at 16th level five scores, and at 20th level you gain +1 to all ability scores.
Rather than being crippled by being reliant on many different scores, you get to boost the scores themselves instead, so you get many good scores in the end. I think it could be OP myself, but it's worth exploring (although at the end of the day I prefer Wis-to-hit/maneuvers instead of strength myself).
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I prefer using Wisdom to hit with monk weapons and unarmed strikes for monks as a solution for MAD, myself - it's much quicker and simpler. It also allows for a more balanced approach for the monk with the physical stats.
Another idea that came up with to resolve the fact that Monks are very MAD was this (credit to Ilja for the concept and name, I just simplified the mechanics):
Disciple of Perfection
When you gain a +1 advancement bonus to an ability score from level increases, for every four class levels you have in the Monk class you gain that +1 to an additional different ability score as well. Hence at 4th level monk you gain +1 to two ability scores. At 8th level monk you gain +1 in three ability scores, at 12th level +1 to four ability scores, at 16th level five scores, and at 20th level you gain +1 to all ability scores.
Sounds familiar :). (Change #2)
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I prefer using Wisdom to hit with monk weapons and unarmed strikes for monks as a solution for MAD, myself - it's much quicker and simpler. It also allows for a more balanced approach for the monk with the physical stats.
Another idea that came up with to resolve the fact that Monks are very MAD was this (credit to Ilja for the concept and name, I just simplified the mechanics):
Disciple of Perfection
When you gain a +1 advancement bonus to an ability score from level increases, for every four class levels you have in the Monk class you gain that +1 to an additional different ability score as well. Hence at 4th level monk you gain +1 to two ability scores. At 8th level monk you gain +1 in three ability scores, at 12th level +1 to four ability scores, at 16th level five scores, and at 20th level you gain +1 to all ability scores.Rather than being crippled by being reliant on many different scores, you get to boost the scores themselves instead, so you get many good scores in the end. I think it could be OP myself, but it's worth exploring (although at the end of the day I prefer Wis-to-hit/maneuvers instead of strength myself).
I imagine a lot of folks recoiling from this instinctively, but that really could help monks feel more well rounded.
Hm....with no magical gear:
STR 12
DEX 16 (using +2 from human)
CON 12
INT 10
WIS 16
CHA 11
STR 12
DEX 17 (using +2 from human)
CON 12
INT 10
WIS 17
CHA 11
STR 12
DEX 18 (using +2 from human)
CON 13
INT 10
WIS 18
CHA 11
STR 12
DEX 19 (using +2 from human)
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 19
CHA 12
STR 12
DEX 20 (using +2 from human)
CON 15
INT 11
WIS 20
CHA 13
STR 13
DEX 21 (using +2 from human)
CON 16
INT 14
WIS 21
CHA 14
That feels a bit closer to the "master at the top of the mountain" that would-be pupils might seek out.
I know this is going to be shot down quickly because I'm not putting a lot of thought into it, but what if monks got a bonus to hit equal to their ki pool? It would obviously fluctuate but it would be based on Wisdom and only they could use it. This idea isn't even close to perfect but I think it could have some merit. It would also allow monks to take Extra Ki to boost their attack bonus, but it would cost them one of their feats that they may not be able to afford to give up. I don't think they can take it as a bonus feat (I may be wrong on that).The trouble with this is that I would find it very difficult to justify ever spending a ki point. +4 AC for one round is seldom worth -1 to hit on all attacks for the rest of the day.
True, so what sbout something like:
Ki Powered: At x level, a monk's attacks become bolstered through his use of Ki. As long as the monk has at least 1 ki point left in his pool, he gains a competance bonus to hit and damage equal to half his total Ki pool.
4th level monk, 18 wisdom, +6 to hit and damage at 4th level? Ouch!
Depends on when they get the ability. If it's level 10, it wouldn't be so bad, but then you run into 'Monk sucks till 10!' stuff.
Ok, so turn it into a scaling thing, getting up to a +5 by 15th level, restricted by ki pool total.
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what is the rough to-hit bonus difference between a Single Ability Dependance class (Fighter) vs a Multiple Ability Dependance class (Monk) when considering only the ability score bonus to hit?
(that is, BAB, Feats, Class Features, and Wealth-by-Level Enhancement/Inherent bonuses aside)
i reckon it to be a difference of +2 during the early levels, and growing to a +3 for the intermediate levels, maybe topping out at +4 by the advanced levels.
Let me ask a question here:
Why do monks need to do damage?
Monks have more non-damaging attack options, and there are plenty of classes to deal DPR. If the monk can hit and damage his target, it doesn't matter how much damage he does if his odds of stunning it are good.
@Rainzax: Generally a full SAD class could have +1 to +3 on a MAD class, but they may not. The MAD class can max out their hitting stat, but they pay for it elsewhere. In the Monk's case with the current build you can max out strength, and have a really bad AC. Or use dexterity, take a feat tax, and then deliver love-taps with little chance of stunning fist ever working.
what is the rough to-hit bonus difference between a Single Ability Dependance class (Fighter) vs a Multiple Ability Dependance class (Monk) when considering only the ability score bonus to hit?
(that is, BAB, Feats, Class Features, and Wealth-by-Level Enhancement/Inherent bonuses aside)
i reckon it to be a difference of +2 during the early levels, and growing to a +3 for the intermediate levels, maybe topping out at +4 by the advanced levels.
Let’s compare the Core Classes without ability score modifiers first, shall we? I know that wasn't what you asked, but it is a vital part of the problem.
We will be looking at what we can all agree on: classes take Weapon Focus in their chosen weapon at the earliest level possible (and fighter takes Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and Greater Weapon Specialization), no special abilities are factored in except for Fighter Weapon Training and the monk’s Flurry of Blows, and each class buys a magic weapon at the earliest point which it can be afforded (using 25% of Wealth-By-Level as the maximum one can spend on a single item). Two weapon fighters are presumed to take the full TWF tree (TWF at level 1, Improved at level 6, and Greater at level 11 for full BAB classes).
This allows for a +1 weapon at 5th level, +2 weapon at 8th level, +3 weapon at 11th level, +4 weapon at 13th level, +5 weapon at 15th level, +6 weapon at 16th level, +7 weapon at 17th level, +8 weapon at 18th level, +9 weapon at 19th level, and a +10 weapon at 20th level. And, at all levels, a two-weapon user can buy a pair if he likes (though that would be 50% of his wealth in two items). Prior to 5th level, a character can afford a masterwork weapon as early as 3rd level (using WBL at 25% as a guideline).
The amulet of the mighty fists has a slower progression, showing here: +1 amulet at 7th level, +2 amulet at 11th level, +3 amulet at 14th level, +4 amulet at 17th level, and a +5 amulet at 18th level.
Fighter w/one weapon:
Level 1: +2 moving; +2 full attack (Weapon Focus)
Level 2: +3 moving; +3 full attack
Level 3: +5 moving; +5 full attack (Masterwork)
Level 4: +6 moving; +6 full attack
Level 5: +8 moving; +8/+3 full attack (+1 Weapon; Weapon Training 1)
Level 6: +9 moving; +9/+4 full attack
Level 7: +10 moving; +10/+5 full attack
Level 8: +12 moving; +12/+7 full attack (+2 Weapon)
Level 9: +14 moving; +14/+9 full attack (WT 2)
Level 10: +15 moving; +15/+10 full attack
Level 11: +17 moving; +17/+12/+7 full attack (+3 Weapon)
Level 12: +18 moving; +18/+13/+8 full attack
Level 13: +21 moving; +21/+16/+11 full attack (+4 Weapon) (WT 3)
Level 14: +22 moving; +22/+17/+12 full attack
Level 15: +24 moving; +24/+19/+14 full attack (+5 Weapon)
Level 16: +25 moving; +25/+20/+15/+10 full attack (+6 Weapon*)
Level 17: +27 moving; +27/+22/+17/+12 full attack (+7 Weapon*) (WT 4)
Level 18: +28 moving; +28/+23/+18/+13 full attack (+8 Weapon*)
Level 19: +29 moving; +29/+24/+19/+14 full attack (+9 Weapon*)
Level 20: +30 moving; +30/+25/+20/+15 full attack (+10 Weapon*)
Fighter w/two weapons:
Level 1: +0 moving; +0/+0 full attack (Weapon Focus)
Level 2: +1 moving; +1/+1 full attack
Level 3: +3 moving; +3+3 full attack (Masterwork)
Level 4: +4 moving; +4/+4 full attack
Level 5: +6 moving; +6/+6 full attack (+1 Weapon) (Weapon Training 1)
Level 6: +7 moving; +7/+7/+2/+2 full attack
Level 7: +8 moving; +8/+8/+3/+3 full attack
Level 8: +10 moving; +10/+10/+5/+5 full attack (+2 Weapon)
Level 9: +12 moving; +12/+12/+7/+7 full attack (WT 2)
Level 10: +13 moving; +13/+13/+8/+8 full attack
Level 11: +15 moving; +15/+15/+10/+10/+5/+5 full attack (+3 Weapon)
Level 12: +16 moving; +16/+16/+11/+11/+6/+6 full attack
Level 13: +19 moving; +19/+19/+14/+14/+9/+9 full attack (+4 Weapon) (WT 3)
Level 14: +20 moving; +20/+20/+15/+15/+10/+10 full attack
Level 15: +22 moving; +22/+22/+17/+17/+12/+12 full attack (+5 Weapon)
Level 16: +23 moving; +23/+23/+18/+18/+13/+13/+8 full attack (+6 Weapon*)
Level 17: +25 moving; +25/+25/+20/+20/+15/+15/+10 full attack (+7 Weapon*) (WT 4)
Level 18: +26 moving; +26/+26/+21/+21/+16/+16/+11 full attack (+8 Weapon*)
Level 19: +27 moving; +27/+27/+22/+22/+17/+17/+12 full attack (+9 Weapon*)
Level 20: +28 moving; +28/+28/+23/+23/+18/+18/+13 full attack (+10 Weapon*)
Barbarian, Paladin or Ranger w/one weapon:
Level 1: +2 moving; +2 full attack (Weapon Focus)
Level 2: +3 moving; +3 full attack
Level 3: +5 moving; +5 full attack (Masterwork)
Level 4: +6 moving; +6 full attack
Level 5: +7 moving; +7/+2 full attack (+1 Weapon)
Level 6: +8 moving; +8/+3 full attack
Level 7: +9 moving; +9/+4 full attack
Level 8: +11 moving; +11/+6 full attack (+2 Weapon)
Level 9: +12 moving; +12/+7 full attack
Level 10: +13 moving; +13/+8 full attack
Level 11: +15 moving; +15/+10/+5 full attack (+3 Weapon)
Level 12: +16 moving; +16/+11/+6 full attack
Level 13: +18 moving; +18/+13/+8 full attack (+4 Weapon)
Level 14: +19 moving; +19/+14/+9 full attack
Level 15: +21 moving; +21/+16/+11 full attack (+5 Weapon)
Level 16: +22 moving; +22/+17/+12/+7 full attack (+6 Weapon*)
Level 17: +23 moving; +23/+18/+13/+8 full attack (+7 Weapon*)
Level 18: +24 moving; +24/+19/+14/+9 full attack (+8 Weapon*)
Level 19: +25 moving; +25/+20/+15/+10 full attack (+9 Weapon*)
Level 20: +26 moving; +26/+21/+16/+11 full attack (+10 Weapon*)
Barbarian, Paladin or Ranger w/two weapons:
Level 1: +0 moving; +0/+0 full attack (Weapon Focus)
Level 2: +1 moving; +1/+1 full attack
Level 3: +3 moving; +3+3 full attack (Masterwork)
Level 4: +4 moving; +4/+4 full attack
Level 5: +5 moving; +5/+5 full attack (+1 Weapon)
Level 6: +6 moving; +6/+6/+1/+1 full attack
Level 7: +7 moving; +7/+7/+2/+2 full attack
Level 8: +9 moving; +9/+9/+4/+4 full attack (+2 Weapon)
Level 9: +10 moving; +10/+10/+5/+5 full attack
Level 10: +11 moving; +11/+11/+6/+6 full attack
Level 11: +13 moving; +13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3 full attack (+3 Weapon)
Level 12: +14 moving; +14/+14/+9/+9/+4/+4 full attack
Level 13: +16 moving; +16/+16/+11/+11/+6/+6 full attack (+4 Weapon)
Level 14: +17 moving; +17/+17/+12/+12/+7/+7 full attack
Level 15: +19 moving; +19/+19/+14/+14/+9/+9 full attack (+5 Weapon)
Level 16: +20 moving; +20/+20/+15/+15/+10/+10/+5 full attack (+6 Weapon*)
Level 17: +21 moving; +21/+21/+16/+16/+11/+11/+6 full attack (+7 Weapon*)
Level 18: +22 moving; +22/+22/+17/+17/+12/+12/+7 full attack (+8 Weapon*)
Level 19: +23 moving; +23/+23/+18/+18/+13/+13/+8 full attack (+9 Weapon*)
Level 20: +24 moving; +24/+24/+19/+19/+14/+14/+9 full attack (+10 Weapon*)
*Indicates that the weapon or weapons have additional special abilities beyond a +5 enhancement bonus, such as flaming, frost, and keen.
Monk:
Level 1: +0 moving, -1/-1 flurry
Level 2: +1 moving; +0/+0 flurry
Level 3: +3 moving; +2/+2 flurry (Weapon Focus)
Level 4: +4 moving; +3/+3 flurry
Level 5: +4 moving; +4/+4 flurry
Level 6: +5 moving; +5/+5/+0 flurry
Level 7: +7 moving; +7/+7/+2 flurry (AoMF +1)
Level 8: +8 moving; +8/+8/+3/+3 flurry
Level 9: +8 moving; +9/+9/+4/+4 flurry
Level 10: +9 moving; +10/+10/+5/+5 flurry
Level 11: +11 moving; +12/+12/+7/+7/+2 flurry (AoMF +2)
Level 12: +12 moving; +13/+13/+8/+8/+3 flurry
Level 13: +12 moving; +14/+14/+9/+9/+4 flurry
Level 14: +14 moving; +16/+16/+11/+11/+6 flurry (AoMF +3)
Level 15: +15 moving; +17/+17/+12/+12/+7/+7 flurry
Level 16: +16 moving; +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3 flurry
Level 17: +17 moving; +20/+20/+15/+15/+10/+10/+5 flurry (AoMF +4)
Level 18: +19 moving; +22/+22/+17/+17/+12/+12/+7 flurry (AoMF +5)
Level 19: +20 moving; +23/+23/+18/+18/+13/+13/+8 flurry
Level 20: +21 moving; +24/+24/+19/+19/+14/+14/+9 flurry
Well, those numbers just stand right out at you, don’t they? Until 18th level, the monk is always behind the TWF Barbarian, Paladin, or Ranger by 1 or more points on a flurry and up to 4 points when moving. This is without the Barbarians raging, the Paladins smiting, and the Ranger facing his favored enemies; when that happens, the numbers get extremely adverse for the monk. The numbers range from 3 to 6 when compared to a single-weapon barbarian, paladin, or ranger, and get even worse when compared to the fighter.
That is the base-line of the class . . . even though it has virtual BAB equal to any full BAB class using TWF, it cannot match a barbarian with no rage, a paladin with no smites, or a ranger with no favored enemy.
Now, we can examine what ability scores doe. Fighters and barbarians have really just two scores they need to have at high and moderate-to-high numbers: Strength and Constitution. I’ve yet to see a fighter or barbarian that hasn’t started play with a minimum score of 18 (+4 modifier) . . . which they can raise all the way up to 34 by 20th level (+5 level, +5 inherent, +6 enhancement) for a total modifier of +12. It could be even higher and certainly will go higher when the barbarian rages.
Both the Ranger and the Paladin add one more stat to the mix: either Wisdom or Charisma. But neither needs to be more than moderate (13 or 14) starting out, so these two are likely to start with a 16 Str (+3 modifier) with a potential score of 32 by the end of their careers (+11 modifier).
The Monk needs Strength, Constitution, and Wisdom . . . just like the Ranger. Oh, and he needs Dexterity because his Wisdom modifier is in effect his armor (his class AC bonus is the enhancement bonus to that 'armor'), and he needs to add to that if he is to survive. And if he wants to be good at maneuvers and skills, he cannot dump Intelligence either. Five ability scores (four if you discount Intelligence) that the monk cannot afford to dump—and he cannot afford to raise. Concentrating on Strength will leave you with the Hulk Smash! type of monk that many of us shudder to contemplate. And if you concentrate on Dexterity with the Weapon Finesse route, you lose any sizeable bonus to damage (until you get to an agile AoMF, which reduces your hit numbers by 1 across the board, that is). Concentrating on Wisdom is the worst of all roads at the moment, because that ability score affects neither your attacks or damage (without such things as a guided weapon; I don't think any feats exist for the monk to use his Wisdom modifier on attack rolls). And like any character that gets into combat, he needs Constitution. So the monk is likely to be at least one more +1 behind the Paladin or Ranger . . . if not +2. Putting him +2 or +3 behind the barbarian or fighter. Which is then added to his attack bonus above, the gap once again widens . . . anywhere from a minimum of 3 on a flurry up to 6 points difference when moving! Against a two-weapon wielding barbarian, paladin, or ranger NOT using their special abilities. Add another five to those (8 on a flurry, 11 when moving) for the fighter!
This is the problem that the monk faces . . . even the bard can be 2+ points up on the monk in combat . . . a frigging bard! As can clerics, and druids, and magi, and even the much maligned rogue can concentrate 100% on boosting Dex to the max . . . because he has that sneak attack bomb he delivers to boost damage. Not so the monk.
MA
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brilliant.
what i'm wondering is that the problem is not so much the madness by itself, inasmuch as it is the BAB/feat/feature/wealth-magic lacking viable to-hit modifiers that is further compounded by madness.
(i suppose one could say that any single factor isn't to blame as much as the combination of factors. nevertheless.)
i personally think madness flavors the game. and so to me, the work to be done to bring the class up to speed is in redesigning or modifying the others parts.
an idea i am working on, which can be seen as an alternative to allowing WIS to be a static bonus to hit or to damage, is to incorporate a more comprehensive Ki Strike - in which it not only functions as a scaling enhancement bonus, but also gives additional DR bypass, and folds in the Stunning Fist line in such a way that the enhancement bonus adds to the DC.
so embracing the madness in the monk rebuild. i like the monk as having a general role with several specialties where the difference between the stat arrays indicates the emphasis on one build over another. introducing WIS to hit/damage narrows the path. i know Zen Archer does this, and thus there is splatbook precedence for the WIS-hit concept. despite this mixed message from the designers, i think the point stands. i will share with you my next attempt at a monk rebuild once i am finished with it.
cheers.
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Heh... It just occured to me that monks actually have lots of synergy.
Unfortunally, said synergy is present not on the monks class features, but in its weaknesses.
Think about it:
Medium BAB + expensive enhancements + MAD + FoB=TWF ruling + low AC
That's a great combo! It just happens to be synergizing in a negative way.
Had the Monk been designed to be unable to hit its opponents, the class would be considered a masterpiece!
NOTE: It is actually a fallacy to state that monks get more attacks than anyone else. They get exactly the same number of attacks as a full BAB character using Two-Weapon Fighting. And like the monk, the ranger doesn't have to meet those Dex prereqs for that feat chain, if he decides to make that his fighting style.
The monk can get one additional attack by spending ki, for one round. That is the margin of the monk's superiority in attacks per round. Everything else (haste, Medusa's Wrath, etc.) can be duplicated by another class. And, technically speaking, a monk using only unarmed strikes doesn't gain an extra attack from haste . . . read the spell. I think the monk should, but as worded, he doesn't.
So, the monk isn't actually getting more attacks than any other character class . . . and he isn't hitting as often as a paladin fighting a neutral creature, or a ranger up against something that is NOT one of his favored enemies.
Remind me again what is the monk's purpose in life? Because it appears to me that the monk isn't meant to be a fighter, he has no skills to cover the role of expert, he can't cast spells, his only non-personal healing ability is to use a skill that isn't even a class skill, he cannot buff anyone (including himself), his limited number of abilities affect only himself . . . what is the monk meant to be?
That is question, my friends. That is the question.
MA
I previously stated this earlier this week. (and if anyone already said any of it, sorry)
As far as abilities are concerned, my group adds all monks Wisdom modifier to CMB and CMD. This change fits the monk flavor very well, and is a step towards MAD reduction.
We believe the monk is not really a full dpt class, but expected to fill several rolls, so the following are thought of from that point.
These are changes that we are considering but have not yet tested include:
Increase ki pool to monk level + Wisdom modifier. Add ki power: Lotus Touch: Spend a ki point as part of an attack action to make all your attacks touch attacks for one round.
Add new ability: Monk combat style: Starting at second level, Monks ignore ability score requirements for feat purposes as long as the feat is related to combat maneuvers.
The monk gains a bonus to his CMB and CMD equal to his class AC bonus. (stacking with the wisdom mod to cmb/cmd)
Add new ki power: Aura of Peace. As long as the monk has a ki point left in his pool, he radiates a calmness that is infectious. Within a 30 ft. radius around the monk creatures must roll a will save (DC 10 + 1/2 monk level + Wisdom modifier) or be affected by a calm emotions effect. Anyone who exits the area and reenter must roll a save again. This aura automatically turns off the moment the monk takes an offensive action (not when he is attacked by someone who saved or a ranged attack). A monk can choose to spend a ki point to enhance his aura, increasing the DC by +5 until the aura turns off.
I will ask my group what else was in the back burner.
Heh... It just occured to me that monks actually have lots of synergy.
Unfortunally, said synergy is present not on the monks class features, but in its weaknesses.
Think about it:
Medium BAB + expensive enhancements + MAD + FoB=TWF ruling + low AC
That's a great combo! It just happens to be synergizing in a negative way.
Had the Monk been designed to be unable to hit its opponents, the class would be considered a masterpiece!
That's freaking hilarious, and sadly true.
an idea i am working on, which can be seen as an alternative to allowing WIS to be a static bonus to hit or to damage, is to incorporate a more comprehensive Ki Strike - in which it not only functions as a scaling enhancement bonus, but also gives additional DR bypass, and folds in the Stunning Fist line in such a way that the enhancement bonus adds to the DC.
You might want to take a look at this thread where we are running comparisons.
There seems to be something wrong with your numbers, master arminas. Your two-weapon fighters have the same bonus for single attacks and full attacks; the single attack bonus should be two points higher than the full attack bonus, since two-weapon fighting imposes a -2 penalty only during full attacks.Fighter w/two weapons...
Barbarian, Paladin or Ranger w/ two weapons...
You are right; I forgot to remove the -2 penalty for them when moving . . . which puts their attack bonus higher. Thanks.
MA
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an idea i am working on, which can be seen as an alternative to allowing WIS to be a static bonus to hit or to damage, is to incorporate a more comprehensive Ki Strike - in which it not only functions as a scaling enhancement bonus, but also gives additional DR bypass, and folds in the Stunning Fist line in such a way that the enhancement bonus adds to the DC.You might want to take a look at this thread where we are running comparisons.
yes i've been checking up on you guys. i think there are other ways to incentivize a high WIS than to have it substitute or stack with the to-hit bonuses.
i am searching for a monk that functions well with multiple moderate scores, where a tipping of one ability score higher or lower represents a customization which is more or less equivalent across the potential arrays. this approach has the added advantage of not 'breaking' any more than any other class would when a lucky player who rolls ability scores (rather than buying them) comes up with a few significant high scores. meaning, i think that less stat bonuses should be added to various venues of play (generally - i break my own rules), and instead be inherent within the class itself.
aside, i think a have an elegant solution for the monk's swift economy viz Ki Pool...
Multiple moderate scores...not sure how you can do that. Either adding scores or adding a flat bonus is prone to exploitation.
But how do you them measure up to the ranger with 18 strength? He has a +4 mod, you have a +2 mod.
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excellent question.
my experiment attempts two different approaches to bridging the 2-point 'stat gap'
the first is my approach to CMB. Open Hand Combat gives unarmed monk both his ST and his DX to CMB. if both of these scores are at 14 (+2), or even 16 (+3) and 12 (+1), that stacks up to a single 18 (+4). the disadvantage of this approach is that it has the potential to break CMB if you have a freak monk who rolled ST and DX both 18...
the second is my approach to fighting two-handed with monk weapons. Monastic Weapons Training allows for 'perfect ambidexterity' (with monk weapons only) which means allowing the use of Two-Weapon Fighting and Double Slice feats without the usual -2 to all attacks for a full attack routine. this penalty erasure is offset by the fact that monk weapons typically do a step less damage than martial weapons. the disadvantage of this method is the potential to step on the toes of other martial TWF classes...
my goal is to bring the monk's base martial viability close up to the level of a non-Fighter martial class out of it's element - a Ranger against an unfavorite, a Paladin against a neutral, a calm Barbarian. but just shy of the brink. from there, two circumstances may ratchet further: one being a monk customized to a slightly higher ST (like 16 - a more 'martial artist' build), or a monk using his precious Ki resource - or both.
my critique of Wisdom-to-hit is that it tips the balance slightly too far - suddenly one stat governs defense, tech, and offense. i think having several stats each tackle two of those roles incentivizes a sort of healthy madness - if and only if the class features are designed for precisely that purpose. and i consider that balance a worthy goal.
excellent question.
my experiment attempts two different approaches to bridging the 2-point 'stat gap'
the first is my approach to CMB. Open Hand Combat gives unarmed monk both his ST and his DX to CMB. if both of these scores are at 14 (+2), or even 16 (+3) and 12 (+1), that stacks up to a single 18 (+4). the disadvantage of this approach is that it has the potential to break CMB if you have a freak monk who rolled ST and DX both 18...
Or uses point buy and just dumps wisdom to take strength 16 and Dex 16 to get +6. Each increase in either stat from items effectively doubles the boost from that point onwards.
However, this is only maneuvers.
the second is my approach to fighting two-handed with monk weapons. Monastic Weapons Training allows for 'perfect ambidexterity' (with monk weapons only) which means allowing the use of Two-Weapon Fighting and Double Slice feats without the usual -2 to all attacks for a full attack routine. this penalty erasure is offset by the fact that monk weapons typically do a step less damage than martial weapons. the disadvantage of this method is the potential to step on the toes of other martial TWF classes...
Yep, plus again if your monk has freak stats, or min-maxes they can end up ahead of the game again.
my goal is to bring the monk's base martial viability close up to the level of a non-Fighter martial class out of it's element - a Ranger against an unfavorite, a Paladin against a neutral, a calm Barbarian. but just shy of the brink. from there, two circumstances may ratchet further: one being a monk customized to a slightly higher ST (like 16 - a more 'martial artist' build), or a monk using his precious Ki resource - or both.
My aim as well, it's a good target.
my critique of Wisdom-to-hit is that it tips the balance slightly too far - suddenly one stat governs defense, tech, and offense. i think having several stats each tackle two of those roles incentivizes a sort of healthy madness - if and only if the class features are designed for precisely that purpose. and i consider that balance a worthy goal.
Perhaps, but it already exists in several places: Weapon Finesse does the same with Dexterity and Guided Hand with Wisdom. These feats are out there and not broken. The problem with using these for the monk is Guided Hand requires a cleric dip, and Weapon Finesse for the monk still leaves him struggling to push up two score (wisdom and Dexterity) while damage really suffers.
What Wisdom-to-hit DOES do is place the monk on a par with the paladin and ranger and other MAD classes in needing only one maxed-out stat, and while others may need to be moderate to high they don't need to be pushed to the max. I've run some tests and he measures up to the non-smiting paladin well (similar to hit, lower damage output), and his stunning fist actually works more than once in a blue moon (which helps compensate for lower damage output).
I don't see how stacking up two scores or providing a flat bonus will give you an option that isn't exploitable to get better than you want the monk to be. Wisdom-to-hit doesn't have that problem.
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on dumping Wisdom:
a Monk built to receive a very finite amount or Ki will have to think twice about exacerbating the balance between their primary scores (ST, DX, WIS, CON). this holds double is Ki is not only a scare resource, but a powerful one.
to take your example, a 16 ST and 16 DX monk would essentially have to settle for a lower WIS and a lower CON. since both of these scores are defense scores for the monk, this build, though being able hit as hard as a Ranger, would have lower AC and HP on account doubly of class features (armor and HD) and ability scores (WIS to AC, CON to HP), not to mention less Ki (thus less +4 dodge buff, less self-heal). a 'glass cannon' if you will. and so, while rockin' the TWF and the maneuvers, this build is not without a significant disadvantage.
let me speak a minute about the Ki Pool as i have proposed it. a scarcer pool (half level vs full level in points) makes the ability score that governs it a greater factor, heightening the disincentive to dump that ability score even a little bit. now, the crux of the issue for me was making the Ki pool abilities important enough to play a vital role in any monk build without overdoing it. an obstacle to this is the swift action economy. a worthwhile parameter to this is the minimization of bookkeeping - all abilities having a 1 round duration. bearing these two in mind, the challenge was to make the Ki pool stronger.
what i came up with was having the +4 dodge bonus kick in whenever the monk expends a Ki point - basically a non-action; a side bonus to any other use of the Ki pool. why? for one, it is the strongest defensive Ki pool ability (at least for a while). for two, it is very thematic - the monk literally speeds up his body when he makes a Flurry of Blows or bio-regenerates or adds +20 to speed or a jump or teleports. i see this as throwing the right mechanics at the right flavor.
but i have gotten off-point.
Wisdom already serves the monk in the role of offense, defense, and tech. and just because it is allowed elsewhere as a 'to-hit' substitution, a) that doesn't mean it is a balanced choice for the monk and b) just because one monk archetype has it (and it oughtn't, in my opinion) doesn't mean they should all have it. thus i contend that there is another way to achieve our shared goal.
I was reading the core rulebook, 2nd printing, and any hit that does no damage because of penalties still does 1 point of non-lethal damage. This means to me that damage reduction will not stop stunning fist or quivering palm. I'm still looking for a simple way to let Monks hit and damage like all other fighting classes. Letting them add their wisdom bonus to hit and damage, at will, for unarmed attacks, sounds good. I'm thinking of adding more chi options too.
on dumping Wisdom:
All I will say is, you should see some of Ashiel's builds. He made a monk using non-monk weapons, wearing armour, dumping wisdoms and STILL outperformed a conventional monk in many ways.
With that huge bump to hit, the monk wouldn't necessarily need their ki-abilities which are largely defensive.
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which bump to hit?
the ST + DX to CMB?
or,
the elimination of the -2 to Flurry?
compared to just WIS-to-hit, i consider the latter bump to be similar. possibly the former bump too... still deciding on that one (as you suggested, whether or not ST/DX 16 = +6 to CMB @ 3/4 BAB is broken or not...)
my question is not "will WIS-to-hit close the gap" but rather "if WIS-to-hit, what becomes the disincentive not to completely max it out?"
and i think, there won't be any.
ST will now be useful for a couple of skills, CMD, and to a lesser extent damage, because damage is supplimented by enhancement bonuses (and to an extent DR penetration).
DX will now be useful for several skills, Reflex, CMD, and to a lesser extent AC (since WIS too governs AC).
i imagine thus seeing more WIS 18+, which soaks up a lot of the point-buy. because, how could you not? WIS now covers melee strike, ranged strike, CMB, Stun DC, Armor Class, CMD, Perception, Will save, and Ki points. i see this as tipping the balance too far.
i can see WIS-to-hit maybe as being part of a capstone ability (or as a side effect to Timeless Body?), so we can play the s#+@ty-old-man monk who walks with a bent back and a cane but if you mess with him he will whup you somehtin' good sonny... cool concept... but before level 20, i don't know if it's a good idea.
ps.
as to Ashiel's builds, which i have not seen, i am trying to address the same issue possibly which inspired him. as to what might be called a 'hulk-smash' variant of my proposed monk, that type of build will be possible, but my goal is to disincentivize it in such a way that it would be giving up a lot of the goodies that a higher Wisdom can afford (making it a more focused but less well-rounded choice). my goal is to make Wisdom totally relevant, but not totally dominating.
my question is not "will WIS-to-hit close the gap" but rather "if WIS-to-hit, what becomes the disincentive not to completely max it out?"
What is the disincentive not to max out strength for a full BAB melee class? None. That's why they do it.
What is the disincentive not to max out dexterity for a full BAB archer/finesse build? None. That's why they do it.
The problem is the monk does have big disincentives not to max out their hitting stat that these classes do not have, because they are more heavily multi-attribute dependent. By making their key stat also their hitting stat they can max it out and not lose out.
It's called 'levelling the playing field'.
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i see this is where we differentiate. what you see as a disadvantage i score as an advantage.
for what it's worth, this is what ideologically differentiates a full-BAB from a 3/4-BAB class. that, though the 3/4 ought to be able to pull it's own in a fight, or at least provide solid support, it has other roles to fill. it is less specialized. the whole as being greater than the sum of the parts. the monk's stat array helps determine exactly the nature of the roles he ought to fill - his 'build'.
does monk need help hitting? yes. does he need to be measured against a max-ST/DX full-BAB melee/archer/finesse class?... thus we disagree.
as neither monk nor full-BAB martial classes have spells (1-4 discounted here), the monk being slightly behind the melee classes in a straight fight is counterbalanced by the fact that he has a couple of other tricks up his sleeve.
thus i see the monk's madness as being an asset rather than a burden. and though i agree that the class needs some tweaks to play the role i purport here, i strongly disagree that he needs to be made in the likeness of a 'sad' class to contribute/compete.
btw, good discussion Dabbler!
i see this is where we differentiate. what you see as a disadvantage i score as an advantage.
for what it's worth, this is what ideologically differentiates a full-BAB from a 3/4-BAB class. that, though the 3/4 ought to be able to pull it's own in a fight, or at least provide solid support, it has other roles to fill. it is less specialized. the whole as being greater than the sum of the parts. the monk's stat array helps determine exactly the nature of the roles he ought to fill - his 'build'.
What IS the monk's other role? They are not casters like bards, magi, etc, nor are they skill-monkeys like the rogue. Indeed, they often have to reduce those abilities that benefit many skills.
The monk is meant to be a highly mobile warrior, and he does have the mobility (until somebody learns fly anyway). But he still has to fight when he gets where he is going.
does monk need help hitting? yes. does he need to be measured against a max-ST/DX full-BAB melee/archer/finesse class?... thus we disagree.
Like it or not, the foe that is designed to stand up to and hurt the full BAB classes is the foe the monk will have to fight. If he can't either match their damage, or otherwise pin down that foe in a way that doesn't hurt him, he's toast.
as neither monk nor full-BAB martial classes have spells (1-4 discounted here), the monk being slightly behind the melee classes in a straight fight is counterbalanced by the fact that he has a couple of other tricks up his sleeve.
The core monk as currently is, is not a little behind the full BAB classes, he's a LOT behind them. The monk I designed was behind by around 30% in DPR, which I'm fine with.
thus i see the monk's madness as being an asset rather than a burden. and though i agree that the class needs some tweaks to play the role i purport here, i strongly disagree that he needs to be made in the likeness of a 'sad' class to contribute/compete.
Well he's NOT being made into a SAD class by Wis-to-hit, for one thing. He's still MAD, but on a MAD level with the ranger or paladin rather than being out there in a class of MADness on his own. He still needs dexterity to boost his AC to their levels, and strength to actually score any solid damage. He just doesn't have to max-out either one of strength or dex and nerf the other in order to half-function as opposed to not functioning at all.
Just as the ranger gets by with one high stat and one or two decent ones; or the paladin with one high stat and another as high as he can get it; this is the level the monk is at with wis-to-hit.
btw, good discussion Dabbler!
Thank you!
Thanks Dabbler.
I was about to ask how Monks are at opening locks, disarming traps, healing others, and tossing magical bolts of damage. I hope that sarcasm is no longer needed.
The only thing that doesn't match the flavor of a monk, is having to use a weapon or strenth. Could Bruce Lee bench press as much as Arnold (can't spell his last name)? Are they going to ask Jackie Chan to play Conan the Barbarian?
Ok, I can't help being sarcastic. Sorry.
your being too literal with the statistical mechanics. Strength does not make you more accurate in real life. The class doesn't have to fit your idea of a monk in a statistical sense, it just has to work mechanically.
Thanks Dabbler.
I was about to ask how Monks are at opening locks, disarming traps, healing others, and tossing magical bolts of damage. I hope that sarcasm is no longer needed.
The only thing that doesn't match the flavor of a monk, is having to use a weapon or strenth. Could Bruce Lee bench press as much as Arnold (can't spell his last name)? Are they going to ask Jackie Chan to play Conan the Barbarian?
Ok, I can't help being sarcastic. Sorry.
I agree about the flavour aspect.
your being too literal with the statistical mechanics. Strength does not make you more accurate in real life. The class doesn't have to fit your idea of a monk in a statistical sense, it just has to work mechanically.
The problem, Trogdar, is that concept and mechanics have to mesh somewhere. If my monk concept is of a swift, smart, wise warrior, it makes sense that he have good Acrobatics, high AC from his speed, good initiative etc. - all attributes associated with dexterity. So 18 strength and 10 dexterity just isn't going to deliver this concept, no matter how you fluff it.
Getting a concept to work mechanically is the whole challenge of character design. When a class has an intentional concept style it can't reach, there is a problem.
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*viz monks 'other role':
monk is mobile warrior with a couple skills and special powers. skills - nice class skills with 4 points. powers - stunning, self-heal, immunity, and eventually self-teleport and ethereal. again, this is not 3 roles rolled into one, this is a few pieces whose sum is greater than the parts.
*viz being behind the full BAB classes:
agreed about his need to be advanced in this department for the previous statements to hold.
*viz Wis-to-hit saddening him:
if the monk gains WIS-to-hit, especially if Wholeness of Body is fixed, you will have WIS functioning as itself (Stun & Ki), partial ST (melee-to-hit & CMB), partial DX (ranged-to-hit & AC & CMD), and partial CON (self-healing).
thus, four ability scores' roles would fall under the domain of a single ability score. how is this not sad?
will WIS-to-hit break the monk? no. or better said, probably not (pending your thread's creative discoveries), but he will become sad. this will restrict his flexibility as a class.
where we disagree is that you believe deliverance from madness is the only way to advance his capabilities as a class - whereas i contend that deliverance is only one way to accomplish this. and if i may say, an inelegant solution - one that more-or-less railroads all builds unto the peak (18+) Wisdom build.
for what it's worth, my position is only as strong as the viability of creating an alternate monk that is mad and also delivers in the places we agree the monk ought. and i think that in embracing the madness inherent in the class, in the concept, we leave it much more customizable - as it should be.
(for example, it was criticized in another recent monk thread that a ST 18 DX 10 monk is undesirable - when i see this i see a Sumo Wrestler archtype)
the monk's flexibility in stat array is a potential strength! it just needs to be brought to the level where that strength can be realized.