Is a 5-Foot Step limited to animals/creatures with intelligence (or intelligence above a certain score)?
We're fighting big bugs (Size M). Are they allowed (smart enough) to take a 5-foot step to avoid a reach weapon AoO?
Or do they not get the concept of a 5-Foot Step, therefore just move forward, invoking the AoO?
I can see trained animals like companions, mounts, eidolons taking 5-Foot Steps.
Thanks in advance for your feedback.
Intelligence doesn't have anything to do with it. Any wild animal in a D&D world would long since have discovered that they can fight more effectively by taking a 5-ft step (allows a full-attack, plus it doesn't leave them wide open when fighting a big creature).
Plus, several real-world animals utilize relatively advanced tactics.
Now, they likely wouldn't know that a reach weapon was just that, so if there was no 5-ft step available, but simply the choice of who to charge, they might not take that into account.
Scorpions and spiders do know damned well the value of a 5-foot step from what I've seen.
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There is no concept to a 5-foot step. It's just "hey it's easy to naturally shift around a short distance while fighting". There's nothing that needs to be understood there; it's completely natural motion.
By RAW every creature can take a 5-foot step. The GM has to decide what a creature will do based on the intelligence of the creature. Some creatures prefer special tactics other fight to death or hit and run.
In my personal opinion most animal would attack directly, maybe ambushing (predators like tigers) or flanking (animals organzied in packs like wolfs). They use special abilities as possible and flee if they have a chance and no reason to fight to death (like puppies to protect etc.). They never use special movements to avoid AoO because they are animals :)
So the answer is "yes", animals can take 5f steps but your example is for smarter enemies than bugs.
They never use special movements to avoid AoO because they are animals :)
Do you also suggest that animals would be unable to withdraw from combat while keeping their eyes on their opponents?
Wild animals are probably smarter fighters than most humans.
Every creature can 5ft. step.
Even Oozes.
They can, but would they?
Prey animals would know how to take a 5ft. step as well, how else are they going to get away safely?
I think that in your case it's important to know whether or not a bug would recognize a ranged weapon. And if there is no specific reason for them to know a ranged weapon they would not recognize it, and therefor they would not try to avoid it.
But in the example given by the OP, the creature is (apparently) only 5 ft away from being able to full-attack. The creature doesn't need to know what type of weapon is being used in order to recognize that 5-ft stepping is by far the best course of action in that situation. Avoiding the AoO is only gravy at that point.
They don't need to recognize it as a weapon, it's an appendage from their prey so it's dangerous!
Just to clarify my position, pun intended.
A 5-Foot Step and moving 5 feet are two different things. And yes, not arguing if they could by RAW. But would they?
I don't feel animals get the concept of BAB, or Full Attack either. Think they (if it was there intent to kill something), close and attack, charge, etc... Certainly tactics are fine, but would usually be under special qualities and in description.
An animal with a single primary attack, anyway... Standard action, full round action, still just an attack.
CHARACTERS don't get the concept of BAB. No-one in-game knows anything of action types. What they know is what actually happens. A 5-ft step (i assume) is slightly changing your position while fighting. Animals can do that.
i have to agree, in the case of undead,and as a gm i rule that they dont know how to move in a defensive manner. i just dont see an unintelligent undead being able to persue a target while doing it in a elusive way.
CHARACTERS don't get the concept of BAB. No-one in-game knows anything of action types. What they know is what actually happens. A 5-ft step (i assume) is slightly changing your position while fighting. Animals can do that.
i agree with everything except that a 5 foot steap is a defensive movement, while normal movement provokes, even if it is the same distance. an animal should be able to do this, my dog does it every time i grab a news paper lol, but something like a bug or undead would (should) not be able to do that.
Absolutely animals take 5-ft steps. Whether you're predator or prey, your line dies out if you don't know how to manoeuvre in combat.
It's not intelligent tactics, it's instinct developed through evolution.
Edit: Even bugs have instincts.
5ft step is not especially defensive - I think it's just a different concept. Note the difference in time spent, a standard move is about half your turn. So a move action is like stopping fighting and try to get from point A to B. 5-ft step I think is more a slight shift without stopping what you're doing.
If you just want to move 5ft over the course of 6 seconds, why would you stop doing what you're doing?
And may I say flies are expert at defensive, elusive movement. Wasps can do both that AND attack. I bet they both have Int -.
See, now other concepts are creeping in. Fly Dex and Size help with AC. You get to swat a wasp as it attacks... AoO.
You could give them Feats like Dodge and Mobility. But the AoO is still there. This isn't about hitting them, just the opportunity as they approach.
5ft step is not especially defensive - I think it's just a different concept. Note the difference in time spent, a standard move is about half your turn. So a move action is like stopping fighting and try to get from point A to B. 5-ft step I think is more a slight shift without stopping what you're doing.
If you just want to move 5ft over the course of 6 seconds, why would you stop doing what you're doing?
And may I say flies are expert at defensive, elusive movement. Wasps can do both that AND attack. I bet they both have Int -.
remember that a move action is not half a round, because the entirity of the round is 6 seconds. as described by the CRB, you make multiple swings your weapon druing your round, they are just represented by the number of dice rolled in effectiveness not number.
i see your point about insects, but i still hold my opinion of undead not being able to.
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See, now other concepts are creeping in. Fly Dex and Size help with AC.
Not definitively so, though. Have you ever seen slow motion of flies taking off to avoid getting whacked?
They take off diagonally up and backwards when they sense motion. Very much like a 5 ft step :) Because throughout their evolutionary history, those that took off straight up to avoid a slap still got slapped.
It's not that flies are clever, or even just that they're small and fast. They know instinctually how to move.
i see your point about insects, but i still hold my opinion of undead not being able to.
Hmmm yes, well I'll avoid the undead issue, as there's no analogue in RL :)
5-Foot Step isn't reactive or defensive in that manner, it is a defensive concept to cautiously position oneself to avoid an AoO. On your turn/action.
So do animals understand AoOs?
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I always call it a 5' adjustment as opposed to a 5' step. To me it represents "I want to end up in this area while Im doing this other stuff." Vermin, skeletons, etc, would be able to grasp that concept IMO. As far as the original question, I would probably rule that the bug wouldnt take the adjustment until its tiny tiny brain noticed that it's meat could hit it from way further away than what it seems. So after getting hit once, it would begin to adjust and would probably flee in the very near future.
5-Foot Step isn't reactive or defensive in that manner, it is a defensive concept to cautiously position oneself to avoid an AoO.
Well, as we fundamentally disagree on this point, there's no further use me responding to you. Ain't neither of us going to change our minds on that basic point.
I think looking at a 5-foot step as a tactical choice is a bit off. As most things in a RPG system it is an abstract.
IMO it makes more sense to look at it like so, a 5-foot step represents a very quick, short and evasive dash/step forward. Hench avoiding AOO and allowing full attack as its so quick.
Anything with the ability to fight and avoid an attack (read as has any ac at all.) would be able to. In fact the better question is if something did not and why. Because that IMO would take a willful choice to be hurt.
I don't see reach having any effect on this. It does not matter if I am trying to kick *insert animal here* or hit it with a broom it will still try to avoid me when it comes in for a strike.
I think looking at a 5-foot step as a tactical choice is a bit off. As most things in a RPG system it is an abstract.
IMO it makes more sense to look at it like so, a 5-foot step represents a very quick, short and evasive dash/step forward. Hench avoiding AOO and allowing full attack as its so quick.
Anything with the ability to fight and avoid an attack (read as has any ac at all.) would be able to. In fact the better question is if something did not and why. Because that IMO would take a willful choice to be hurt.
I don't see reach having any effect on this. It does not matter if I am trying to kick *insert animal here* or hit it with a broom it will still try to avoid me when it comes in for a strike.
+1 to this though :) Well put.
I could agree to that! Dang abstraction!
@Hewy, I just thought your example was more dodge and mobility.
I could agree to that! Dang abstraction!
@Hewy, I just thought your example was more dodge and mobility.
Oh ok... Nah, I meant pretty much what Stome said, only I obviously didn't convey it as clearly :)
+1 to this though :) Well put.I think looking at a 5-foot step as a tactical choice is a bit off. As most things in a RPG system it is an abstract.
IMO it makes more sense to look at it like so, a 5-foot step represents a very quick, short and evasive dash/step forward. Hench avoiding AOO and allowing full attack as its so quick.
Anything with the ability to fight and avoid an attack (read as has any ac at all.) would be able to. In fact the better question is if something did not and why. Because that IMO would take a willful choice to be hurt.
I don't see reach having any effect on this. It does not matter if I am trying to kick *insert animal here* or hit it with a broom it will still try to avoid me when it comes in for a strike.
Thank you friend. You put a smile on my face. I had feared I might not have gotten my thought across well. Seems I did.
To a little more to the thought there are many things in the system to account for battle not being turn based in reality. AOO, immediate actions, Charge, 5-Foot step. Some are for off-turn actions and some are for countering off-turn actions. All of it to represent that battle flows rather then takes turns.
Sure its not perfect but well it could never be perfect and still be turn based.
Anyway I might be rambling at this point :). My point is at times stepping back and looking at it as an abstract for a flowing battle can help.
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Even if 5-ft steps had been a tactical decision (which they're not; they're just something you can do), I'd say being able to use tactics well in combat would have much more to do with Wisdom than with Intelligence.
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Even if 5-ft steps had been a tactical decision (which they're not; they're just something you can do), I'd say being able to use tactics well in combat would have much more to do with Wisdom than with Intelligence.
I second that.
Just to clarify my position, pun intended.
A 5-Foot Step and moving 5 feet are two different things. And yes, not arguing if they could by RAW. But would they?
I don't feel animals get the concept of BAB, or Full Attack either. Think they (if it was there intent to kill something), close and attack, charge, etc... Certainly tactics are fine, but would usually be under special qualities and in description.
An animal with a single primary attack, anyway... Standard action, full round action, still just an attack.
In this case, they would take a 5ft. step, if not thinking then they still have got instinct to avoid being hit.
So do animals understand AoOs?
Do people understand AoOs?
What is known by beings in-game is that if you don't try to defend yourself, you're going to get slapped. If you just stand around waving your arms and chanting, or start spinning a sling or whatever - if you aren't ready for your opponent's movements - you might get slapped.
Obviously, animals understand this in game or they would constantly provoke (because _not_ provoking is basically something you actively do - it's just that everyone does it [which is why spellcasters still provoke if they cast a stilled, silent spell]).
Taking a move action is ignoring your opponents movement to move, which is why it provokes. Animals generally don't ignore their opponents movements.
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Yep. Animals understand that if they show their undefended belly to their foe, that belly will get slashed by a claw. Likewise, they understand that if an opponent shows his undefended belly to them, they can easily slash it.
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Many human fighting styles are based on watching animals fight, as if they are experts and we're learning their combat techniques. Also animals would know when the predator is making a bite attack, there may be an opportunity to bite/claw/strike back. This isn't complex analytical thinking, rather instinctual combat. You don't need a human brain to be successful at combat. As far as techniques go, animals learn from their mistakes and successes. If making a 5' step is more effective in a given combat situation, they animal will make a 5' step.
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Nothing in the rules say that 5FS and other actions in the Combat chapter require a minimum Intelligence score to use them.
Uncle, uncle... Uncle Sean, apparently.
So... An animal could delay its action, moving its rank in initiative and disrupt a spellcaster?
PETA aside, can we RP animals as animals?
Luckily, the DM in an earlier combat had one wolf charge the fauchard-using fighter, which made for a wonderful cinematic scene when the fighter AoO'd, hit and killed the critter.
Now, folks don't be upset there were other wolves left to ruff us up.
EDIT: Again, not arguing RAW. Maybe this should be moved to Advice?
So... An animal could delay its action, moving its rank in initiative and disrupt a spellcaster?
PETA aside, can we RP animals as animals?
Luckily, the DM in an earlier combat had one wolf charge the fauchard-using fighter, which made for a wonderful cinematic scene when the fighter AoO'd, hit and killed the critter.
I'd say that "the wolf 5 foot steps to (re)establish flanking" (the most common use of the 5FS I've seen) is perfectly normal wolf behavior. "The wolf 5 foot steps to avoid AoOs from pole-arms" would depend on how experienced the wolf was at fighting pesky two-legs and their pointy sticks :). Delaying is another thread altogether.
I'd say that "the wolf 5 foot steps to (re)establish flanking" (the most common use of the 5FS I've seen) is perfectly normal wolf behavior. "The wolf 5 foot steps to avoid AoOs from pole-arms" would depend on how experienced the wolf was at fighting pesky two-legs and their pointy sticks :). Delaying is another thread altogether.
See, a reasonable man! I only brought up delaying because of the "no minimum intelligence" comment regards combat.
Apparently there's no minimum intelligence to post here... That's how I can keep coming back! :)
Is a 5-Foot Step limited to animals/creatures with intelligence (or intelligence above a certain score)?
We're fighting big bugs (Size M). Are they allowed (smart enough) to take a 5-foot step to avoid a reach weapon AoO?
Or do they not get the concept of a 5-Foot Step, therefore just move forward, invoking the AoO?
I can see trained animals like companions, mounts, eidolons taking 5-Foot Steps.
Thanks in advance for your feedback.
I see no reason a creature that can move wouldn't be able to take a 5 foot step. Arguing they aren't smart enough sounds like a petty quibble to me.
Nothing in the rules say that 5FS and other actions in the Combat chapter require a minimum Intelligence score to use them.
Thank you SKR for a post that should have ended this discussion already!
Challenge Rating is lowered by intelligence.
A dumb creature should use all the skill and tactic afforded to it.
A dumb creature shouldn't use any knowledge that such a creature wouldn't have.