I would go with the idea that if it isn't a dagger type weapon specificly then it gets the d4s. Spells that work like a specific weapon say so in their description (flame blade, ice dagger, that other dagger spell, spiritual weapon, etc).
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Ask yourself: do you really think the designers intended to build a backdoor into the Knife Master that allowed them to use d6's with spellcasting, and therefore carefully worded it so that on close inspection one might interpret that to be the way it works?
Or do you think the Knife Master is simply supposed to do d8's with knives and d4's with things that aren't knives?
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I like how you chose spells that don't require attack rolls as examples of spells you don't need to aim. Pity the only spells that actually work with sneak attack in the first place are the ones that do require attack rolls (and therefore require as much aiming as any other weapon). I'd love to hear how you plan to use sneak attack - which is based on carefully aiming to do precision damage - while simultaneously not needing to aim at all.
There is no good-faith way to argue that Knife Master gets d6's with spells. There is only absurd rules-lawyering.
That can't possibly be right. The original Rogue sneak attack (no archetypes) clearly says "weapon". With all this "weapon" talk, who's to say what sort of sneak attack damage they do? Maybe for a regular Rogue they do d4's as well. It doesn't say they don't, therefore maybe they do.
Again for a more rules based answer I would stick to my above comment about spells functioning like specific weapons only when the spell effect says they do. It's easy, concise and follows the rule precidents we have already.
Since neither fireball nor magic missile state the function as daggers (et al) they don't and apply the reduced sneak attack damage.
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I am not sure what troubles you really. Spells as weapons? Some count, some don't. If it has attack roll it generally counts as a weapon.
For example, neither fireball nor magic missile have attack rolls. They are pretty much autohits. Such spells can't add sneak attack damage. The 10th level arcane trickster ability bypasses this rule and says that you can basicly add sneak attack damage to fireball or magic missile but extra damage will only be in effect if target is flat-footed.
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I'm just rather surprised that the publisher's 'intent' carries so much weight, but that's a point far too general and off-topic to really address here.
Of course the publisher's intent carries a lot of weight. What are the words on the page but an attempt to convey the publisher's intent? If they are incomplete or unclear, what else to you have to go on but trying to understand or infer the publisher's intent?
Spells that aren't specifically called out to act like a weapon, are spells not weapons in a game mechanics sense. Spells (and spell like effects) are a 'catch all' category, sometimes they mimic other rules or items from the game totally or in part, sometimes they are unique in the rule set. A spell is a spell which at some points may be treated like a weapon. A spell isn't an 'undefined' weapon.
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I changed the highlighting in your quote
A knife master focuses her ability to deal sneak attack damage with daggers and similar weapons to such a degree that she can deal more sneak attack damage with those weapons at the expense of sneak attacks with other weapons. When she makes a sneak attack with a dagger, kerambit, kukri, punching daggers, starknife, or swordbreaker dagger, she uses d8s to roll sneak attack damage instead of d6s. For sneak attacks with all other weapons, she uses d4s instead of d6s.
while the question "is a spell a weapon, if it does not requires an attack roll" might be unanswered, I fairly sure we can say that those spells are NOT dagger, kerambit, ...
so it's d4 sneak
If a spell only functions like a specific weapon when the spell effect says it does, what kind of weapon is a spell the rest of the time? That is, what kind of weapon is a fireball?
This is actually a good point, and I think it's being overlooked by people who are reacting to the cheese.
"When she makes a sneak attack with a dagger, kerambit, kukri, punching daggers, starknife, or swordbreaker dagger, she uses d8s to roll sneak attack damage instead of d6s. For sneak attacks with all other weapons, she uses d4s instead of d6s."
By RAW, the fireball is not a dagger, KKPdSorSd, so you do not use d8's.
By RAW, it's also not any other weapon, so you do not use d4's.
(Fireball is not a weapon per this FAQ which means you don't get bonuses from things like Inspire Courage or Prayer)
That leaves only the default d6's like every normal rogue.
It's very reasonable that the intent behind the knife master was that knife-weapons get bigger dice, and everything else gets smaller dice. As the rules are written with the expectation of normalcy, it was probably a reasonable assumption that any sneak attacks would be made with a weapon, so the rule has all bases covered. It's only by applying non-weapon based sneak attacks that causes the loophole to be apparent.
So you've got a corner case. You can exploit that gap in the rules to get d6's on your non-weapon-like spells, or you can use it the way it appears to have been intended, and use d4's for all non-dagger-like sneak attacks. In the end it's a GM's call.
That would assume they were saying 'weapon' in a strict game mechanic definition. 'Weapon' is also a term used loosely for pretty much anything used to cause harm, which a spell used offensively would absolutely count as, and use d4 dice for sneak attack damage.
Not all terms used in the rules go by strict game mechanic definitions (though things would be much easier if they as publishers would use italics or some such when refering to mechanics with certain terms, like 'weapon' in this case).
Hey,
So I'm considering rolling up a Spellblade Magus/Knife Master Rogue/Arcane Trickster for a Way of the Wicked Campaign.
The idea behind this build is to have a spell-slinging melee striker that can get +2 keen weapons and dual-wield 'em for combat while still being able to pew spells at things that need pewing. The big question mark I have concerns the Knife Master and, specifically, the sneak stab supplement. The description reads:
A knife master focuses her ability to deal sneak attack damage with daggers and similar weapons to such a degree that she can deal more sneak attack damage with those weapons at the expense of sneak attacks with other weapons. When she makes a sneak attack with a dagger, kerambit, kukri, punching daggers, starknife, or swordbreaker dagger, she uses d8s to roll sneak attack damage instead of d6s. For sneak attacks with all other weapons, she uses d4s instead of d6s.I added the bold here because this is what I hope to get clarified: do spells like magic missle or fireball that do not require an attack roll count as weapons in this case? If not, then wouldn't the Arcane Trickster's Surprise Spells ability apply the regular d6s of damage to flat-footed opponents?
I mean I know a ray counts as a weapon (if I can take weapon focus: ray, it is a self-evident proposition that a ray is a weapon XP) and a touch attack seems to treat one's hands as a weapon, so that also makes sense. But a spell is a spell, and not strictly speaking a weapon, it seems to me. And the descriptor of the archetype points to 'weapon'...
Sneak Stab (Ex)
A knife master focuses her ability to deal sneak attack damage with daggers and similar weapons to such a degree that she can deal more sneak attack damage with those weapons at the expense of sneak attacks with other weapons. When she makes a sneak attack with a dagger, kerambit, kukri, punching daggers, starknife, or swordbreaker dagger, she uses d8s to roll sneak attack damage instead of d6s. For sneak attacks with all other weapons, she uses d4s instead of d6s.This ability is identical in all other ways to sneak attack, and supplements that ability.
I don't know how to bold, so I'll reiterate the point I want to make below.
This ability is identical in all other ways to sneak attack, and supplements that ability.
Due to this ability modifying your sneak attack progression to D4s unless you utilize knives, I would say that no matter what that any spell you use with AT will only ever do D4s.
Surprise Spells
At 10th level, an arcane trickster can add her sneak attack damage to any spell that deals damage, if the targets are flat-footed. This additional damage only applies to spells that deal hit point damage, and the additional damage is of the same type as the spell. If the spell allows a saving throw to negate or halve the damage, it also negates or halves the sneak attack damage.
This specifically references the specific ability called Sneak Attack, so, when Sneak Stab alters the progression of Sneak Attack to D4s, it is assumed to inherit the new progression rather than keeping the old progression. This is due to the precedence set by several other abilities not working with archetypes. If a feature replaces or alters the original feature, feats and features that reference said ability is altered or negated due to the original feature being altered or replaced (making it non-existent).
Personally I would homerule it to use D8s just to congratulate and reward the player for the creativity used to play something out of the ordinary, but by RAW and RAI the concept would limit the damage to D4s.
I am certain that the OP has been waiting these last 8+ years for this answer.
Personally I would homerule it to use D8s just to congratulate and reward the player for the creativity used to play something out of the ordinary
I had some bad experiences with being too generous, so I'd consider carefully whether it fits the table, and in doubt stick to "No".
Still I'd express some respect for the idea. In my experience players sometimes care more about being appreciated for their creativity than they care about actual ingame power.
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