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I just wanna say, I wish we had something like a monk thread sticky, in which people discuss the problems with the monk forever. That would be so much better.
Guess what, no sticky required, because the problems with Monks will be discussed forever...or at least as many years as it takes for a new edition of PF arrives to invest more $$ in.
Someone trying to say the monk can't scout, again?
You've got the speed, so that even half speed stealth you are somewhat quick, and can keep up with those walking away.
Stealth is a class skill, to do this job well, take 1 feat. Skill focus: stealth. Investment required to fill this roll is low.
If spotted, you may want to just go with the initiative roll, or you could sink a feat into improved initiative, your call. This isn't necessary though:
Because your hp ain't bad.
Your ac is good and you aren't slowed by armour or your checks hindered in any way.
Your saves are really good.
Your movement speed is exceptional.
Can very easily take deflect arrows, to turn one of those shots at you as you retreat that would have hit you, into a total "not even close buddy" miss.
So get out of there Rico, zoom goes the running monk. Report back to the party or lure those suckers into an ambush.
If you think the monk can't scout, you have no clue or experience with monks. Or, are deliberately saying they can't fulfill this useful role so you can mock the class once again. You don't want to see how easily it can be done.
I notice you ignored everything else in my post to assert that the Monk can, yes, move pretty quickly.
However, scouting is not simply "Sneak over here and look at people", it involves a number of other things. Generally being able to get past traps and through locked doors is a plus, as is the ability to effectively defend yourself if caught. Which is why a Ranger is a better scout than a Rogue, as well.
And anything that actually follows the foe obviously fleeing back to its friends with its tail between its legs isn't smart or dangerous enough that it would have mattered if you'd bumped into them blindfolded half the time.
Your AC is not "good", especially when you don't use magic items as you say Monk has no need of them. Your HP is not good either. It's better than a Sorcerer's, I guess.
But yeah, your saves are good and you can move quick.
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It is a team game, but he tried to give the MONK the credit, so I want to see what the MONK did. Now if he got the dragon to the ground and the fighter killed it then the monk did not "beats the snot out of them."
Notice that "them" is plural so maybe he is a level 13 monk taking on CR 5 dragons.
Does the monk not get credit for grappling the dragon? Is that not awesome in itself? I get what you are saying, you are comparing contributions, but I think that there is a certain amount of glass half empty when people cry "monks suck!".
In the team game every person makes a difference. They might not all be equal, because the circumstances change from encounter to encounter. Monks might be flankers or they might be front-lines, and sure they have challenges but they still decent. Vanilla monks are essentially Two-weapon Fighters. They do about the same amount of damage, and are just as gear dependent (which is kinda sad, considering their fluff). They don't have quite the HP but they have evasion, resistances, saves, and SR. "Suck" or its equivalent is IMHO hyperbole.
...Your AC is not "good", especially when you don't use magic items as you say Monk has no need of them. Your HP is not good either. It's better than a Sorcerer's, I guess.But yeah, your saves are good and you can move quick.
Monks are certainly as gear dependent as anybody, but I am curious. End game monks have very decent ACs and touch ACs/CMDs that no one matches. Are you describing low level monks or what?
Having a good AC as a Monk requires more investment than any other class you could care to name.
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Even a wizard can wear a mithral +5 buckler and a +5 haramaki and have absolutely ZERO negative consequences on his spellcasting. That's a whopping +12 AC. For less money combined than bracers of armor +8.
That is the sort of thing a monk forgoes for his "class features."
Yeah, a monk can get a pretty good touch AC. But his full AC is garbage, not much better than the touch AC value. And while he has a higher HD, the wizard will easily be able to afford a Con score 2 higher than him due to SAD, so monk doesn't even have more hit points. Let alone the whole fact that wizard can fly to avoid attackers and use mirror image, displacement, etc...
How about TW fighters? Monks get bonuses via class features and fighters don't. Bracers cost the same as armor of the same amount. You might claim that their amulet slot is taken but a lot of monk builds end up using weapons for the enhancement bonus.
Even a wizard can wear a mithral +5 buckler and a +5 haramaki and have absolutely ZERO negative consequences on his spellcasting. That's a whopping +12 AC. For less money combined than bracers of armor +8.
That is the sort of thing a monk forgoes for his "class features."
Yeah, a monk can get a pretty good touch AC. But his full AC is garbage, not much better than the touch AC value. And while he has a higher HD, the wizard will easily be able to afford a Con score 2 higher than him due to SAD, so monk doesn't even have more hit points. Let alone the whole fact that wizard can fly to avoid attackers and use mirror image, displacement, etc...
A monks wis bonus and AC feature outpace that buckler +5, assuming wisdom bonus item. I guess that means the monk can be a TWF with a shield bonus. NIce.
The Bracers cost the same, yes, but with a lesser armor value.
A chain shirt is 4+Enhancement, whereas the Bracers are just +Enhancement.
And what about TWFers? That's generally considered by far the weakest fighting style for ANY class, so comparing it to another class is kind of a wash.
The Wisdom bonus doesn't outpace the buckler unless you try to make Wis your main or secondary stat. Which hurts your actual combat contribution even more.
You see it all the time in these "My Monk is so OP, he's impossible to hit!" threads where the Monk has 40 AC and then a to-hit of +5 and a damage of a flat d8 (no static bonuses) or something.
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Still waiting for the Tetori build....
*Slithers onto the scene* I'm right here...
The Bracers cost the same, yes, but with a lesser armor value.
A chain shirt is 4+Enhancement, whereas the Bracers are just +Enhancement.
And what about TWFers? That's generally considered by far the weakest fighting style for ANY class, so comparing it to another class is kind of a wash.
Crap, I missed that. OK. But that is not a "crap" AC. Its still pretty nice.
If your claim then is that monks are weak because they are no better than TW fighters, well there is nothing I can say that will convince you otherwise. Except that they end up with better overall defenses. but hey, glass half empty, right?
Someone trying to say the monk can't scout, again?
You've got the speed, so that even half speed stealth you are somewhat quick, and can keep up with those walking away.
Yeah, monks can flee. But if they want to scout, they have to be able to do many things (disable device, perception, stealth, escape artist and acrobatics are mandatory, climb, swim, survival and disguise are welcome too). How do you scout when you have 4+INT skills and INT as a dump stat ?
Stealth is a class skill, to do this job well, take 1 feat. Skill focus: stealth. Investment required to fill this roll is low.
If spotted, you may want to just go with the initiative roll, or you could sink a feat into improved initiative, your call. This isn't necessary though:
So, any problem of the monk can be solved with feats. But hey, how many feats do you think you have ? A monk isn't even close to a fighter (as a fighter need really maybe 4 feats to do their job, 2 feats to reduce their weak spot, and have still something like 17 feats to work around. A monk have 5 feats less, and must choose in a very small list for their class feats. Their other feats are likely to be used to try to make the monk efficient in combat (whatever the role you think you might give him).
Because your hp ain't bad.
A wizard have as much HP as a monk. A monk is a martial class. The wizard is the most fragile class you can play in D&D. Make the maths.
Your ac is good and you aren't slowed by armour or your checks hindered in any way.
And the fighter will have better AC, and won't be affected negatively by his armor (he will be in is full plate as a monk in robes).
One thing the monk is good at in that category is touch AC (as he does not wear armor).
Your saves are really good.
And you have SR, and it means you are likely to not be buffed in combat, contrary to the fighter.
And reaaaaally bad will effects are likely to be countered by simple means. A dominate or charm will be cancelled by protection from [alignment] very easily, once you know you play in "standard" D&D (you know, when you play heroes that fight Evil).
They have very exceptionnal fortitude (likely more than a monk), and that's the second best save in the game.
They don't have Reflex, but are not abbysmal in it either (as, contrary to 3.5, fighters actually have good DEX).
Your movement speed is exceptional.
So, you have to choose : run for your life or be next to the monster with wizard HP and less AC than typical melee martial characters... And you can't combine Flurry of blows with movement (and if you move, you are less likely to actually hit things).
Can very easily take deflect arrows, to turn one of those shots at you as you retreat that would have hit you, into a total "not even close buddy" miss.
They fit the prerequisite, but does monk have feats to spend in that ?
If you think the monk can't scout, you have no clue or experience with monks. Or, are deliberately saying they can't fulfill this useful role so you can mock the class once again. You don't want to see how easily it can be done.
They are not good scouts. Actually, I would say Fighters can be better than them with that too (and that will need less of their ressources to do so).
How about TW fighters? Monks get bonuses via class features and fighters don't.
Let me laugh out loud about that. At least, TWF can touch their target if they move (monks don't). And the TWF archetype fighter can make two attacks even when they move their move speed. And they even have bonuses with TWF (+1 for every 5 levels), and reduced maluses (-1 instead of -2 at 11th level, and no penalty at 15th).
What does the monk have from class features ? NOTHING that can synergize with TWF, except the flurry itself. And developpers have made several boosts to flurry since the first edition of Pathfinder.
Let me laugh out loud about that. At least, TWF can touch their target if they move (monks don't). And the TWF archetype fighter can make two attacks even when they move their move speed. And they even have bonuses with TWF (+1 for every 5 levels), and reduced maluses (-1 instead of -2 at 11th level, and no penalty at 15th).
we are not talking archetypes as archetypes have already been ruled out as changing how effective the monk is (RE wraithstrike).
But we could talk feats, like Tiger style feats, which can allow a vanilla monk to move half his speed (which by that level is about equal to a normal character's speed) as a swift action. Thus both moving and keeping a full BAB and flurry.
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Nevermind. Again, half empty glasses. Claiming that a monk and wizard have the same HP? No amount of logic will fill this glass.
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LOL Oh look, this thread again. Someone please tell the Monk in my Curse of the Crimson Throne game to start sucking please, because tripping and disarming all my bad guys is REALLY starting to annoy the ever living piss out of me.
Oh wait, nvm, I forgot that real world experience doesn't count against all the theorycrafters out there.
Carry on with the Monkly suckitude!
My player eagerly awaits the day that Monks get more buffed and awesome so he can totally pwn the game.
Claiming that a monk and wizard have the same HP? No amount of logic will fill this glass.
What part of d8 HD and 14 Con is about equal to d6 HD and 16 Con do you not understand?
Note that Tiger Pounce requires 3 other Feats to acquire, cannot be acquired before level 9 (and the first in the line can't be acquired until at least 5, since the Monk can't get Power Attack until 3, meaning to get it ASAP it eats up all of said Monk's Feats from 3-9), the two prerequisite Style Feats are pretty much garbage AND only works on targets you've attacked in the last round (so it's only a half-Pounce at that).
As well the Monk supposedly gaining Full BaB on a Flurry is a bit of a joke, since it has that neat -2 penalty on all hits built into it. By level 20 it adds up to a net gain of 3 to-hit, certainly, but at most other levels it only really adds up to a +1 bonus to each hit (a quick glance at the to-hit chart vs the Flurry chart reveals that quite neatly). Indeed, from levels 1-4 it results in a net LOSS of to-hit, and does not result in ANY gain of to-hit until level 9.
Someone please tell the Monk in my Curse of the Crimson Throne game to start sucking please, because tripping and disarming all my bad guys is REALLY starting to annoy the ever living piss out of me.
Utter the words "multiple legs", "Large size or larger", or "can/is flying" in his presence along with the words "locked gauntlet" or "Natural attacks".
Suddenly, he's not doing so hot. And there's quite a few creatures in the bestiary that fit either or BOTH bills.
But we could talk feats, like Tiger style feats, which can allow a vanilla monk to move half his speed (which by that level is about equal to a normal character's speed) as a swift action. Thus both moving and keeping a full BAB and flurry.
Again with feats, but that time, it is 3 feats you need. How many feats does a monk have ?
Because yeah, you spoke about half a dozen feats to reduce some of the monk weaknesses (and you don't propose anything for AC/HP yet), and you didn't actually took anything that make him hit anything yet.
Claiming that a monk and wizard have the same HP? No amount of logic will fill this glass.
What part of d8 HD and 14 Con is about equal to d6 HD and 16 Con do you not understand?
You're right. And there can be a difference even greater : a wizard does not need to put his favored class into skill, so he can have actually more HP than a monk (or did you say that a monk is only a martial character, and that scouting is not his job, so that he can spend his favored point in HP too ?).
LOL Oh look, this thread again. Someone please tell the Monk in my Curse of the Crimson Throne game to start sucking please, because tripping and disarming all my bad guys is REALLY starting to annoy the ever living piss out of me.
I didn't play that campaign, so I can't make an educated guess on that one.
Maybe it is full of humanoids, with less than average CMD ? (I don't know, I'm asking).
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Note that Tiger Pounce requires 3 other Feats to acquire, cannot be acquired before level 9 (and the first in the line can't be acquired until at least 5, since the Monk can't get Power Attack until 3, meaning to get it ASAP it eats up all of said Monk's Feats from 3-9), the two prerequisite Style Feats are pretty much garbage AND only works on targets you've attacked in the last round (so it's only a half-Pounce at that).
As well the Monk supposedly gaining Full BaB on a Flurry is a bit of a joke, since it has that neat -2 penalty on all hits built into it. By level 20 it adds up to a net gain of 3 to-hit, certainly, but at most other levels it only really adds up to a +1 bonus to each hit (a quick glance at the to-hit chart vs the Flurry chart reveals that quite neatly). Indeed, from levels 1-4 it results in a net LOSS of to-hit, and does not result in ANY gain of to-hit until level 9.
Someone please tell the Monk in my Curse of the Crimson Throne game to start sucking please, because tripping and disarming all my bad guys is REALLY starting to annoy the ever living piss out of me.Utter the words "multiple legs", "Large size or larger", or "can/is flying" in his presence along with the words "locked gauntlet" or "Natural attacks".
Suddenly, he's not doing so hot. And there's quite a few creatures in the bestiary that fit either or BOTH bills.
For Curse of the Crimson Throne, not so much.
At least, not through the first 3 books.
From all the stuff I've heard about CotCT it's one of the rare almost entirely humanoid populated APs.
Still, if he really pisses you off that bad you can just say "This guy has a locked gauntlet" or "This guy chugged a potion of Fly" or "This guy's a Maneuver Master too nyahahaha" at irregular intervals without changing too much if you wanted to throw him for a loop every now and then.
Sooo....your suggestion is to alter the AP so the Monk sucks enough to justify this thread??
The fact is, against a humanoid AP or encounters, CMB monks (even vanilla, like this guy) are pretty badass.
Your player is then happy to play an AP that have been pretty much designed to favor maneuvers. Except it normally represent not even 10% of what you encounter, and there have SOOO many ways to counter them it's awful.
Does your monk take an oppotunity at EACH maneuver he attempts ? And what point buy do you use (if not point buy, what system, and what abilities does he have) ? What are the other players' characters ? There are so many questions, but even answering those three could explain a lot of things.
Against mostly humanoid encounters, spellcasters can mop the mother-****ing floor with the opposition. Casters love humanoids, all the "person" versions of their spells are way lower level!
You want to make melee shine and casters feel bad, you want stuff like outsiders with SR, flight, lots of energy resists and great saves, teleporting, but no ranged attack options or particularly high attack damage routines or physical defenses. So they have to engage in melee and aren't meat grinders for the martials, but still dangerous to the casters and able to reach them no matter where they hide.
Sooo....your suggestion is to alter the AP so the Monk sucks enough to justify this thread??
The fact is, against a humanoid AP or encounters, CMB monks (even vanilla, like this guy) are pretty badass.
Actually, that was tangential. You said you were "getting pissed off" at him apparently rolling over encounters because the AP has pretty well maximum favorable conditions for him (well, any Maneuver based build really, I doubt he could outplay a straight Fighter in the straight up maneuver using capacity), so I gave you a few adjustments you could make so it wouldn't be nearly as easy for him so you'd stop getting pissed off.
But obviously that was a bad idea.
Someone trying to say the monk can't scout, again?
You've got the speed, so that even half speed stealth you are somewhat quick, and can keep up with those walking away.
Yeah, monks can flee. But if they want to scout, they have to be able to do many things (disable device, perception, stealth, escape artist and acrobatics are mandatory, climb, swim, survival and disguise are welcome too). How do you scout when you have 4+INT skills and INT as a dump stat ?
Stealth is a class skill, to do this job well, take 1 feat. Skill focus: stealth. Investment required to fill this roll is low.
If spotted, you may want to just go with the initiative roll, or you could sink a feat into improved initiative, your call. This isn't necessary though:
So, any problem of the monk can be solved with feats. But hey, how many feats do you think you have ? A monk isn't even close to a fighter (as a fighter need really maybe 4 feats to do their job, 2 feats to reduce their weak spot, and have still something like 17 feats to work around. A monk have 5 feats less, and must choose in a very small list for their class feats. Their other feats are likely to be used to try to make the monk efficient in combat (whatever the role you think you might give him).
Because your hp ain't bad.A wizard have as much HP as a monk. A monk is a martial class. The wizard is the most fragile class you can play in D&D. Make the maths.
Your ac is good and you aren't slowed by armour or your checks hindered in any way.And the fighter will have better AC, and won't be affected negatively by his armor (he will be in is full plate as a monk in robes).
One thing the monk is good at in that category is touch AC (as he does not wear armor).
Your saves are really good.And you have SR, and it means you are likely to not be buffed in combat, contrary to the fighter.
And reaaaaally bad will effects are likely to be countered by simple means. A dominate...
Your pre-reqs for scouting are incorrect. You don't need disable device to check ahead for foes and what not. The skills you list, monks mostly get them (except for disable).
So monks can't scout because they don't have all these skills, falls a bit flat. Done it in game and seen it done, sorry, you can't take their scouting potential away from them.
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Depending on how the DM runs things and what sort of threats your party normally faces (and how much metagaming is allowed), knowledge skills might also be highly useful or even downright necessary for a scout. Being able to correctly identify what threats you're up against and it's abilities/weaknesses can be a pretty big deal.
Still waiting for the Tetori build....*Slithers onto the scene* I'm right here...
Where? That profile is blank, and none of it's five posts is a build.
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It is a team game, but he tried to give the MONK the credit, so I want to see what the MONK did. Now if he got the dragon to the ground and the fighter killed it then the monk did not "beats the snot out of them."
Notice that "them" is plural so maybe he is a level 13 monk taking on CR 5 dragons.
Does the monk not get credit for grappling the dragon? Is that not awesome in itself? I get what you are saying, you are comparing contributions, but I think that there is a certain amount of glass half empty when people cry "monks suck!".
In the team game every person makes a difference. They might not all be equal, because the circumstances change from encounter to encounter. Monks might be flankers or they might be front-lines, and sure they have challenges but they still decent. Vanilla monks are essentially Two-weapon Fighters. They do about the same amount of damage, and are just as gear dependent (which is kinda sad, considering their fluff). They don't have quite the HP but they have evasion, resistances, saves, and SR. "Suck" or its equivalent is IMHO hyperbole.
I don't know the CR of that dragon so know the monk is not getting credit yet.
To be honest I am just giving the sidekick a hard time because of how he wrote the post.
Had he said well "My monk grappled a dragon, and that contributed greatly to the party defeating it." I would not have said anything, but when you say a monk is owning dragons without listing how he got any help, that makes it sound like the monk is getting all of the credit, so now I have to ask questions.
If he wished to revise the way he wrote it, or give us actual details I might be quiet about it, but until then, no, he gets no leeway.
Before we get into this your ideas have been covered in other threads, and explained why they are not acceptable to a lot of us. In the last thread I listed links to other monk threads. Could you read them so we can avoid rehashing the same points? At the very least read the entire last thread.Thank you for moderating the board. I wouldn't want someone new to make a thread. You never know when Paizo is going to run out of space!
Thanks for taking my words out of context. Now if you have anything meaningful to contribute you can post that next time. I won't hold my breath.
Still waiting for the Tetori build....*Slithers onto the scene* I'm right here...
:)
LOL Oh look, this thread again. Someone please tell the Monk in my Curse of the Crimson Throne game to start sucking please, because tripping and disarming all my bad guys is REALLY starting to annoy the ever living piss out of me.
Oh wait, nvm, I forgot that real world experience doesn't count against all the theorycrafters out there.
Carry on with the Monkly suckitude!
My player eagerly awaits the day that Monks get more buffed and awesome so he can totally pwn the game.
Bomanz it is not theorycrafting if we have actually seen it.
Sooo....your suggestion is to alter the AP so the Monk sucks enough to justify this thread??
The fact is, against a humanoid AP or encounters, CMB monks (even vanilla, like this guy) are pretty badass.
No he as not doing it for the sake of this thread. He was just giving advice for your GM if the GM thinks it is an issue.
Claiming that a monk and wizard have the same HP? No amount of logic will fill this glass.What part of d8 HD and 14 Con is about equal to d6 HD and 16 Con do you not understand?
I just want to say that I have noticed this to be true from experience Stream of sky, I have a level 10 Dwarf wizard with a 16 Con and he has three more hit points than my level 10 Cleric with 14 con (we roll hps after level 1).
But we could talk feats, like Tiger style feats, which can allow a vanilla monk to move half his speed (which by that level is about equal to a normal character's speed) as a swift action. Thus both moving and keeping a full BAB and flurry.Again with feats, but that time, it is 3 feats you need. How many feats does a monk have ?
Because yeah, you spoke about half a dozen feats to reduce some of the monk weaknesses (and you don't propose anything for AC/HP yet), and you didn't actually took anything that make him hit anything yet.
Claiming that a monk and wizard have the same HP? No amount of logic will fill this glass.
What part of d8 HD and 14 Con is about equal to d6 HD and 16 Con do you not understand?You're right. And there can be a difference even greater : a wizard does not need to put his favored class into skill, so he can have actually more HP than a monk (or did you say that a monk is only a martial character, and that scouting is not his job, so that he can spend his favored point in HP too ?).
Lol, generally I put the favored bonus in hit points for wizards but with my Dwarf wizard It seems unnecessary as I get that sexy juicy dripping wet mound of extra daily crafting value to mass produce VARIOUS kinds of magic items and still have around or slightly more hp than some 3/4 BABs.
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In all fairness I personally think a monk could be an excellent scout if not much else. A spellcaster would almost always be able to do it more safely though.
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Wrong, I've seen some good builds on these forums, I think you are being very selective with your memory of all monks being weak.
I've seen some decent monk builds, as in monk builds that are optimised to the max and do not completely suck. This basically shows up how weak the class is, though, because optimising anything else to max and you get awesome.
But maybe you want a monk that can clear a dungeon of CR equivalents with no help, in a team-based game.
No, just a monk that can function as a monk and do what a monk is supposed to do.
Yes, yes, and fighters, barbarians and rangers can be defeated by spellcasters in 1 round with a bad will save roll.
So can monks. If you mean monks have a 'good' Will save, then I have to point out that all these characters can DO something about their less than brilliant Will saves while the monk's less than brilliant offensive capacity has no solution.
Fighters get oodles of feats, so taking Iron Will and Improved Iron Will are not issues for them. Barbarians get the Superstitious rage power. Rangers rely on Wisdom for their spells, so bumping Wisdom for them does more than just boost Will saves, making it desirable.
If the fighter/barbs saves are great thanks to gear (cloaks of boll'ocks everywhere), then those mighty heroes are in real trouble if the cloak/save boosting items are gone/broken/stolen.
Like the monk's Amulet of Mighty Fists can, leaving him offensively even MORE gimped.
Grog smash now is great, I have respect for it, but they have a ref and will vulnerability the monk does not have. This whole "this class is better than that class" forgets the weaknesses each class and build has. The mighty damage dealers can be taken out if their weak saves are exploited. The monk doesn't have weak saves. The pally has great saves, but needs the heavy armour and shield for great ac, which makes them slow and therefore vulnerable in the way the fast light monk on no skill check penalties is not.
Honestly, over and over round and round with you people.
Yeah, how long does it take you to realise that defensively good (which monk's can be, although Paladins are better) does not equate to pulling your weight in the party? You need to be able to do something to the opposition, or they just ignore you and leave you until last.
Rogues AND ninjas can't kill stuff in a round? You've seen the TWF and hasted archer builds for rogues/ninjas right?
So you agree monks are the only class that cannot deal with CR-equivelant threats in a timely manner?
I have one further question. Why is it so essential that everything gets killed in one round by the pcs, with massive damage?
Because offensive power wins battles. I agree, there's more than one way to skin a cat, but what else can monks do?
Stun things? Stunning fist relies on hitting and damaging, then on a secondary stat for save DC. Most of the time, it's made of fail.
Use maneuvers? Not as effectively as other classes can, and they are only situationally useful, and rarely even that above 10th-12th level.
So what does the monk do that can offensively effect the enemy, even just to get their attention?
There are builds to pull that off, sure, and it is satisfying to win, but rocket tagging through a dungeon is quite boring (and it encourages the dm to do the same to match the pcs). Where is the back and forth of fighting contests? Valiantly fighting for some rounds and then getting the win.
Now now now it seems, a troubling philosophy on what makes a good combatant. In opposition to this trend, I made a pretty high ac martial rogue that wore the opponents down over rounds, forcing a lot of misses with high ac, but making use of feints, sneak attacks and a bastard sword. To not kill them immediately, can also be cool.
You know, duel with them a bit!
Only this doesn't work. The monk can have a good AC, yes, but no better than a fighter. AC does not scale as fast as attack bonus, as you go up CRs, so you will get hit more, not less. Unlike the full BAB classes, the monk has d8 hit dice and MAD to ensure his hit points are less. If he is doing less damage, and is unable to pull any other tricks to hinder the enemy, then the enemy is going to win - if they bother fighting you at all.
If you think the monk can't scout, you have no clue or experience with monks. Or, are deliberately saying they can't fulfill this useful role so you can mock the class once again. You don't want to see how easily it can be done.
Indeed, monks CAN scout. They are the fourth-best scouts in the game, right behind rogues, bards, and rangers. Who all scout better, and can do a lot else besides.
"Can scout" is not the same as "good at scouting".
Monks are certainly as gear dependent as anybody, but I am curious. End game monks have very decent ACs and touch ACs/CMDs that no one matches. Are you describing low level monks or what?
They don't have good flat-footed ACs, and they aren't better than other classes like the fighter or paladin, at least without burning ki like it's going out of fashion. Also, as pointed out, it takes a lot of investment for a monk to have an AC that good - usually he has to sacrifice his Strength for Dexterity and ends up delivering pitiful damage.
Nevermind. Again, half empty glasses. Claiming that a monk and wizard have the same HP? No amount of logic will fill this glass.
Because Con is a tertiary (or worse) stat for the monk, and a secondary stat for the wizard if he so chooses, so the monk's d8 hit dice and lower Con work out roughly the same as the wizards d6 hit dice and higher Con.
LOL Oh look, this thread again. Someone please tell the Monk in my Curse of the Crimson Throne game to start sucking please, because tripping and disarming all my bad guys is REALLY starting to annoy the ever living piss out of me.
Let him enjoy it, it won't last - that adventure convinced me the monk was WEAK because past #3, opportunities to use maneuvers were thin on the ground - lots of naturally armed creatures, flying or with mutliple legs etc.
Oh wait, nvm, I forgot that real world experience doesn't count against all the theorycrafters out there.
Does only positive real-world experience count, then? We say the monk is a weak class, we have played it and found it a weak class, and we can crunch the numbers to prove it. You say the monk is not a weak class, that you have experience of it not being a weak class in game, so please deliver the numbers that prove it - I'd LOVE to find a way to make monks that didn't suck badly in most boss encounters over 10th level (based on my experience of playing a monk in CotCT among others).
I will not deny that some monk archetypes are OK, and that monks can be situationally good. The problem is those situations are not common enough in most adventures for the monk to pull his weight in a party, and the monk has no fall-back option.
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there are about 4 good monk archetypes. they are
Str based Quinggong
Zen-Archer
Archery Focused Sohei
Dragon Style Using STR based Martial Artist
the funny thing, is that the latter of the 4 is a glass cannon who rarely hits, but if built right, can land a potent DR ignoring hit or few. but has the issue of movement Vs Flurry.
the middle 2 are archers who fire a shipload of low accuracy shots at a faster rate than most dedicated archers
and the first, is a swapping system with only a few truly decent powers that are must haves for every monk who takes the archetype
effectively, building a monk to deal damage requires one of 2 things, either not acting like a proper monk, or becoming a glass cannon
Here's an idea I had for helping the Monk be more of the "Mobile Combat Monster" that they are described to be.
Make Flurry of blows work like this:
-A Monk can use Flurry of blows (which is still a full round action) AND still move up to their speed
-Move "Mobility" from the Monks list of 6th level Bonus Feats to the ones that they can take at level 1.
-If you want to give them an ability to help them hit things how about allowing them to spend 1 point from their Ki pool to add a +1 Enhancement Bonus to hit and damage which lasts for a number of rounds equal to the Monks level + Wisdom Modifier. Four every four levels they gain beyond 4th the enhancement bonus increases by +1. At a +2 Enhancement bonus they can start adding weapon properties to their unarmed strikes. If using an Amulet of Might Fists then they can devote all points spent from their Ki pool to adding weapon properties to their unarmed attacks. (Similar to how a Paladin or Magus use their Bonded weapon abilities).
I'm not going to go into a full blown RAR correct write up for these abilities here but you get the gist of what I'm talking about. The first two suggestions could easily be added/changed in future printings. The Ki pool ability might require more finessing to fit into the Ki pool entry of the CRB.
Personally I feel as thought the monk was a 1st edition class ported to 3.0 and it still carries a lot of baggage from those days. If a new edition of Pathfinder is released I think they should turn the Monk into a straight martial artist class (without alignment restrictions) that specializes in unarmed combat, and make the "Monk" a mystical archetype (with being partial lawful a requirement of the archetype).
effectively, building a monk to deal damage requires one of 2 things, either not acting like a proper monk, or becoming a glass cannon
...or using a dexterity build and an agile property on the AoMF. However, monks are still not great damage dealers. To be honest that doesn't bother me so much as the fact that they have no other options to influence combat - stunning fist is too unreliable, maneuvers too situational (and the core monk isn't great at them anyway).
The monk designs that DO work are largely one-trick ponies; they may be good at that trick (although it's not guaranteed), like the zen-archer or the tetori, but they aren't much cop for anything else. Looking at other classes, few are so restricted - a fighter doesn't have to sacrifice much AC to be a great damage dealer, for example.
effectively, building a monk to deal damage requires one of 2 things, either not acting like a proper monk, or becoming a glass cannon...or using a dexterity build and an agile property on the AoMF. However, monks are still not great damage dealers. To be honest that doesn't bother me so much as the fact that they have no other options to influence combat - stunning fist is too unreliable, maneuvers too situational (and the core monk isn't great at them anyway).
The monk designs that DO work are largely one-trick ponies; they may be good at that trick (although it's not guaranteed), like the zen-archer or the tetori, but they aren't much cop for anything else. Looking at other classes, few are so restricted - a fighter doesn't have to sacrifice much AC to be a great damage dealer, for example.
Dexterity build falls apart before 7-8ish as a noncontributor due to a lack of ability to get an agile amulet of mighty fists without either, extremely good luck (nearly impossibly good), or DM fiat.
the amulet's biggest weakness in rarity is that it is competing with the wondrous items list.
and agile eats a whole +1 off the amulet. now DR alignment is unbypassable for you.
now you have simply blown 2 feats, and +1 of your amulet's bonuses to compensate for a low strength if you want damage or manuevers.
the agile amulet hinders you in the long run.
especially since its ability cap is halved, and price is doubled.
I know, but it kind of works for a while. I found with Agile Maneuvers that I could work maneuvers before 7th level, and Crafting Feats in casters are common enough that DM Fiat isn't needed.
@Atarlost : +1
effectively, building a monk to deal damage requires one of 2 things, either not acting like a proper monk, or becoming a glass cannon...or using a dexterity build and an agile property on the AoMF. However, monks are still not great damage dealers. To be honest that doesn't bother me so much as the fact that they have no other options to influence combat - stunning fist is too unreliable, maneuvers too situational (and the core monk isn't great at them anyway).
The monk designs that DO work are largely one-trick ponies; they may be good at that trick (although it's not guaranteed), like the zen-archer or the tetori, but they aren't much cop for anything else. Looking at other classes, few are so restricted - a fighter doesn't have to sacrifice much AC to be a great damage dealer, for example.
Dexterity build falls apart before 7-8ish as a noncontributor due to a lack of ability to get an agile amulet of mighty fists without either, extremely good luck (nearly impossibly good), or DM fiat.
the amulet's biggest weakness in rarity is that it is competing with the wondrous items list.
and agile eats a whole +1 off the amulet. now DR alignment is unbypassable for you.
now you have simply blown 2 feats, and +1 of your amulet's bonuses to compensate for a low strength if you want damage or manuevers.
the agile amulet hinders you in the long run.
especially since its ability cap is halved, and price is doubled.
Assuming you don't mind few attacks with a bonus, get ki straps or whatever they are they add +1 to 1-4 attacks based on bab. This combined with an agile Amulet of MF amulet is cheap.