Of course, there are problems with Monks. They should be able to *hit* more often while not outdamaging Fighters at the same time (more to hit, less to damage), the disconnect between turbo mobility and being required to stand still to fight efficiently could do a fix, and perhaps all those silly abilities like tongue of soon and moon should be swap-able for something else, Qinggong Style. If they're supposed to be the most mobile class in the game, enhance that.
There, that's my obsession with Monks. Yes, Gorbacz is fully aware of *actual* Monk issues. But "Monks aren't the best melee class in the game" is not one of them.
Are you saying that bolded part as a fact?
Because news flash: That's your opinion, and nothing more.
I can also present my opinion, which is that the Monk should be able to outhit and outdamage a Fighter when it comes to Unarmed combat.
The Fighter can beat the Monk at everything else for all I care. It kinda already does that anyway, with the exception of Base Saves perhaps.
Gorbacz, we are in argeement on those accounts. That is all I mean when I say at least on par. I want the monk to have a more reliable mealns of dealimg damage, for the abilites to work with each other and to make sense.
I'm in agreement with the part about the mobility and the small abilities like Tongue of Sun and Moon needing a viable method of being swapped. So far it seems that Paizo has decided that said method is archetypes.
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Well if the monk can reliably hit more often damage will shore itself up some. Really I think it's been said best " lets figure out what we want the monk to be and go from there"
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Of course, there are problems with Monks. They should be able to *hit* more often while not outdamaging Fighters at the same time (more to hit, less to damage), the disconnect between turbo mobility and being required to stand still to fight efficiently could do a fix, and perhaps all those silly abilities like tongue of soon and moon should be swap-able for something else, Qinggong Style. If they're supposed to be the most mobile class in the game, enhance that.
There, that's my obsession with Monks. Yes, Gorbacz is fully aware of *actual* Monk issues. But "Monks aren't the best melee class in the game" is not one of them.
Are you saying that bolded part as a fact?
Because news flash: That's your opinion, and nothing more.
I can also present my opinion, which is that the Monk should be able to outhit and outdamage a Fighter when it comes to Unarmed combat. The Fighter can beat him at everything else for all I care.
[SARCASM MODE ON] Perish the thought, why would I even bother to present any "opinions" on an Internet discussion forum! It's not what they are for! They're for stating facts and arguing that what others say to contrary are just irrelevant opinions. [SARCASM MODE OFF]
I can totally see Flurry being remade into something that no longer has any ties to TWF, Qinggong archetype becoming a part of Core Monk 2.0 and some ability to FoB after movement.
Should a monk necessarily outpace a fighter in DPR with unarmed strikes? No, I tend to agree with the concept that a Monk's advantage should lie in mystical tricks and self-enhancement, compared to a more direct approach by the fighter. Some revision needs to be done to make even that work, but let's set aside that can of worms for now.
Here's the thing: the Fighter already easily outdamages the Monk in unarmed combat. Weapon Training, Weapon Specialization, an almost definitionally greater Strength, the Brawler archetype's magnificent Close Combatant ability--Fighters pile on static bonuses to damage. Plus, the Fighter can use Gauntlets, Cestii, or Brass Knuckles as their unarmed strike, giving them an ease of enchantment and bypassing material DR that monks lack; though all these weapons are explicitly unarmed strikes, monks lose their enhanced damage die if they use them. With items meant to enhance unarmed combat, the monk loses access to his biggest advantage in unarmed combat. So, did Fighters need another boost to their unarmed effectiveness that monks, a class partly defined by unarmed combat, have no access to?
To add to a sub-thread of the discussion:
Mithril Breastplate (even a mithril comfort breastplate) does not actually count as light armor, so should not be able to take the brawling property. This is relevant as the Defender of the Society trait works with mithril breastplate (and the trait requires medium or heavy armor).
To add to a sub-thread of the discussion:
Mithril Breastplate (even a mithril comfort breastplate) does not actually count as light armor, so should not be able to take the brawling property. This is relevant as the Defender of the Society trait works with mithril breastplate (and the trait requires medium or heavy armor).
If it does not count as Light Armor, can a Monk flurry while wearing one then?
If it does not count as Light Armor, can a Monk flurry while wearing one then?To add to a sub-thread of the discussion:
Mithril Breastplate (even a mithril comfort breastplate) does not actually count as light armor, so should not be able to take the brawling property. This is relevant as the Defender of the Society trait works with mithril breastplate (and the trait requires medium or heavy armor).
Why would they? It still counts as armor.
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Qinggong Style.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay sexy Gorbacz! Op! Op op! Oppan Qinggong Style!
/retirestothecornerofshame.
I think it's possible that the light armor restriction is in place because they didn't want the property on an armor with built in gauntlets. The consequences for breastplates and bracers of armor was possibly an oversight, but that could all be wishful thinking on my part.
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Ok, completely off topic, but has anyone thought of the amusement value of a brawling haramaki +x
Also called a belly-warmer, a haramaki is a simple silken sash lined with chainmail or articulated metal plates and tied about the stomach to protect it.
So we now have a WWE championship belt that does something :-)
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Ok, completely off topic, but has anyone thought of the amusement value of a brawling haramaki +x
Also called a belly-warmer, a haramaki is a simple silken sash lined with chainmail or articulated metal plates and tied about the stomach to protect it.So we now have a WWE championship belt that does something :-)
OMG i love you, i need to do this now
Someone mentioned the Rogue earlier. Well, let's see how the two compare side-by-side.
Okay, let’s take a look at a Rogue with brawling armor. He is human, built on a 20-point buy. Let’s make him 12th level (top of the game for PFS).
Base Ability Scores are Str 10 (0 pts), Dex 17 (13 pts), Con 14 (5 pts), Int 10 (0 pts), Wis 12 (2 pts), and Cha 10 (0 pts). We put his +2 for being human in Dex (19). All three ability score increases go to Dex (22). Final Array is Str 10, Dex 22, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, and Cha 10 (pre-magic).
Feats are Improved Unarmed Strike, Agile Maneuvers, Improved Grapple, Dodge (Rogue Talent), Weapon Finesse (Rogue Talent), Two Weapon Fighting, Two Weapon Defense, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Double Slice, and Weapon Focus (Unarmed) (Rogue Talent). Ten feats in total.
Wealth by Level is 108,000 gp. For equipment we give him a set of +4 brawling mithril chain shirt (26,100 gp), a ring of protection +2 (8,000 gp), an agile amulet of mighty fists +1 (20,000 gp), a cloak of resistance +3 (9,000 gp), a belt of incredible dexterity +4 (16,000 gp), a headband of inspired wisdom +4 (16,000 gp), boots of striding and springing (5,500 gp), and a handy haversack. That leaves him with 5,400 gp on-hand for consumables.
His ability scores, post-magic, are Str 10, Dex 26, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 16, and Cha 10. He has an average of 94 hit points (favored class bonus HP), an AC of 28 (flat 27, touch 20), and saves of Fort +9, Ref +19, and Will +10. BAB is +9/+4. His speed is 40’ and he has a +8 on Initiative rolls.
His full attack (unarmed) is thus +19/+19/+14/+14, for 1d3+11 damage (20/x2 critical). If he flanks a creature, or catches them flat-footed, he adds an additional +6d6 damage to each hit. Average damage per successful hit is 13, +21 if sneak attack is successful.
If he moves more than 5’, he attacks for +21, 1d3+11 damage (20/x2 critical). Getting that +6d6 sneak attack as usual.
CMB is +17, +21 on grapples. CMD is 26, +30 vs. grapples.
He has 108 skill points, giving him up to 9 skills at a full 12 ranks. More, if he doesn’t max out his skills. And he still has three Rogue Talents and Advanced Talents left to spend.
Only things non-core used here are the brawling armor property and the agile weapon property.
Let’s compare that with a monk of equal level and point-buy. Once again, human.
Base Ability Scores are Str 15 (7 pts), Dex 14 (5 pts), Con 14 (5 pts), Int 10 (0 pts), Wis 14 (5 pts), and Cha 8 (-2 pts). We put his +2 for being human in Str (17). All three ability score increases go to Str (20). Final Array is Str 20, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, and Cha 8 (pre-magic).
Feats are Weapon Focus (Unarmed), Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack (Monk Bonus), Deflect Arrows (Monk Bonus), Improved Grapple (Monk Bonus), Medusa’s Wrath (Monk Bonus), for a total of seven feats, leaving four more for the monk to select.
Wealth by Level is 108,000 gp. For equipment we give him a set of +4 bracers of armor (16,000 gp), a ring of protection +2 (8,000 gp), an amulet of mighty fists +2 (20,000 gp), a cloak of resistance +2 (4,000 gp), a belt of physical might +4 (Str/Dex) (40,000 gp), and a headband of inspired wisdom +4 (16,000 gp). That leaves him with 4,000 gp on-hand for consumables.
His ability scores, post-magic, are Str 24, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 18, and Cha 8. He has an average of 94 hit points (favored class bonus HP), an AC of 28 (flat 23, touch 24), and saves of Fort +12, Ref +14, and Will +14. BAB is +9/+4. Flurry BAB is +10/+10/+5/+5. His speed is 70’ and he has a +4 on Initiative rolls. His ki pool has 10 points.
His flurry attack (unarmed) is thus +20/+20/+15/+15/+10, for 2d6+9 damage (20/x2 critical). Average damage per successful hit is 16.
If he moves more than 5’, he attacks for +19, 2d6+9 damage (20/x2 critical).
CMB is +19, +21 on grapples. CMD is 33, +35 vs. grapples.
He has 60 skill points, giving him up to 5 skills at a full 12 ranks. More, if he doesn’t max out his skills.
Note, that the AC of both characters is the same. The monk has a higher touch AC, but the rogue has a higher flat-footed (thanks to Uncanny Dodge). Both have the same hit points. The monk has a slightly higher chance to hit (+20 vs. +19) and does higher average damage (16 vs. 13)—before sneak attack. If sneak attack applies, the rogue wins handily the damage contest with twice the average damage per hit (16 vs. 34). If both characters are forced to move, the rogue has a higher attack bonus, but the monk still does more damage per hit IF the rogue is denied his sneak attack.
The monk has a slightly higher CMB, but the same bonus on grapples for both characters. The monk has a much higher CMD, however.
And this is pretty much a standard Rogue, hardly optimized to go the distance (same for the Monk). Using the unarmed strikes that are a Monk’s signature feature. And the monk is a Strength build, not focusing on Dexterity and Wisdom, which strikes so many of us as wrong. And even come ahead by this much, the Monk had to spend 37+% of his total wealth on a single item (that belt of physical might +4).
When the rogue is outfighting the monk at the monk's chosen speciality, something is wrong.
MA
Qinggong Style.Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay sexy Gorbacz! Op! Op op! Oppan Qinggong Style!
/retirestothecornerofshame.
You win three internets.
Also, what is Jiggy's question about?
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MA tried to compare monk and rogue damage output. He gave the rogue uber-DEX and Agile (DEX to damage), made the monk straddle STR and DEX, and then complained that the monk wasn't good enough at attacks/damage/AC.
Oh, and apparently he forgot to give the rogue IUS too.
Don't you need improved unarmed strike for your rogue?Someone mentioned the Rogue earlier. Well, let's see how the two compare side-by-side.
Okay, let’s take a look at a Rogue with brawling armor. He is human, built on a 20-point buy. Let’s make him 12th level (top of the game for PFS).
Base Ability Scores are Str 10 (0 pts), Dex 17 (13 pts), Con 14 (5 pts), Int 10 (0 pts), Wis 12 (2 pts), and Cha 10 (0 pts). We put his +2 for being human in Dex (19). All three ability score increases go to Dex (22). Final Array is Str 10, Dex 22, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, and Cha 10 (pre-magic).
Feats are Agile Maneuvers, Improved Grapple, Dodge, Weapon Finesse (Rogue Talent), Two Weapon Fighting, Two Weapon Defense, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Double Slice, and Weapon Focus (Unarmed) (Rogue Talent). Nine feats in total.
Fixed, thank you. I meant to switch Dodge to a Rogue Talent and add it, but I forgot before posting.
MA
MA tried to compare monk and rogue damage output. He gave the rogue uber-DEX and Agile (DEX to damage), made the monk straddle STR and DEX, and then complained that the monk wasn't good enough at attacks/damage/AC.
Oh, and apparently he forgot to give the rogue IUS too.
That's because it helps support MA's argument if he makes the Monk seem weaker.
Why did the rogue use Weapon Finesse and an Agile effect, while the monk tried to straddle STR and DEX?
You could concentrate the monk as Dex w/agile, at the cost of a +1 enhancement bonus (to hit and damage) on the AoMF. The problem with that build lies in the early levels. You can't afford an agile amulet of mighty fists until 6th or 7th level. I believe in builds that can survive to reach their level. If we went that route, for the first 5 or 6 levels of his career, this monk would be doing 1d6 or 1d8 damage with NO bonus from Strength (if I shifted Str to Dex, ala the Rogue).
You can argue (legitimately) that the Rogue does that. But the Rogue has that sneak attack bomb which lessens his need for Strength-based damage. On average, at 1st level, if a Rogue can get in a sneak attack, he deals an average of +3.5 damage . . . more than 16 Strength bonus. And that damage goes up every odd level.
The Monk doesn't have that. So, until he can get agile, he will be sucking wind if he neglects Strength to focus on Dexterity. At least in my opinion, Jiggy.
I hope that answers your question.
MA
SnipWell for one, your Monk build is horrible, even beyond the "Haha, taking Monk beyond 4!" sense.
Dragon Style+Dragon Ferocity would be a better use of feats than Spring Attack line, which is absolute rubbish with tumble being broken.
That's because it helps support MA's argument if he makes the Monk seem weaker.MA tried to compare monk and rogue damage output. He gave the rogue uber-DEX and Agile (DEX to damage), made the monk straddle STR and DEX, and then complained that the monk wasn't good enough at attacks/damage/AC.
Oh, and apparently he forgot to give the rogue IUS too.
Look, I wasn't trying to optimize out either character here. I was using feats from Core, and only added in agile and brawling from later materials. Brawling because that is what is this thread is about, and a agile because I don't know a single Rogue that hasn't taken that property since it was published. It is literally a must have enchantment for a Rogue. In my opinion.
Yes, the monk might be better with some feats from the Ultimate books; he's still got plenty to spend! I built what I think are average characters that you might well see. Not tricked out to the Nth degree.
That isn't trying to deliberately tank the Monk, Brain-in-a-Jar, it is trying to build the two relatively equally.
MA
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Why did the rogue use Weapon Finesse and an Agile effect, while the monk tried to straddle STR and DEX?You could concentrate the monk as Dex w/agile, at the cost of a +1 enhancement bonus (to hit and damage) on the AoMF. The problem with that build lies in the early levels. You can't afford an agile amulet of mighty fists until 6th or 7th level.
You can't afford a 5k item until 6th or 7th level? Really?
Not without spending more than half your gold, you can't. And the CRB says that NO ONE ITEM should consume so much of your wealth. At 5th level, you can barely afford an agile amulet of mighty fists, having 10,500 gp in wealth and the amulet costing 5,000 gp. I try hard not to go over 35% for any one item, which I broke (slightly) in the example above to give the monk that belt of physical might +4 (just over 37% total wealth).
And if you go with the 'balanced approach' (page 402 of CRB), nothing can cost more than 25% of your total wealth. In the balanced approach, you have a total 16,000 gp at 6th level; 25% of that is 4,000 gp, which puts the amulet out of your price range. I know some people don't play that way, but I try to.
MA
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SnipWell for one, your Monk build is horrible, even beyond the "Haha, taking Monk beyond 4!" sense.
Dragon Style+Dragon Ferocity would be a better use of feats than Spring Attack line, which is absolute rubbish with tumble being broken.
Don't forget to use an Allying Gauntlet for both (I'm assuming you are NOT using the insane flurry retcon). Its more efficient than an AoMF and stacks if you use special properties on the AoMF.
Any two of Qinggong, Hungry Ghost and Sensei is better than standard Monk.
for a grapple based monk,i love spring attack, especially when you mix it with snapping turtle style, my god so much grappling goodness.
You can't afford a 5k item until 6th or 7th level? Really?Why did the rogue use Weapon Finesse and an Agile effect, while the monk tried to straddle STR and DEX?You could concentrate the monk as Dex w/agile, at the cost of a +1 enhancement bonus (to hit and damage) on the AoMF. The problem with that build lies in the early levels. You can't afford an agile amulet of mighty fists until 6th or 7th level.
He is right, WBL 5th level is 10K, the max you supposed to spend on one item is 1/2.
But that isn't a balanced approach: "For a balanced approach, PCs that are built after 1st level should spend no more than 25% of their wealth on weapons, 25% on armor and protective devices, 25% on other magic items, 15% on disposable items like potions, scrolls, and wands, and 10% on ordinary gear and coins. "
So if we going by balanced approach, 6th or 7th level is appropriate.
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Not without spending more than half your gold, you can't. And the CRB says that NO ONE ITEM should consume so much of your wealth. At 5th level, you can barely afford an agile amulet of mighty fists, having 10,500 gp in wealth and the amulet costing 5,000 gp. I try hard not to go over 35% for any one item, which I broke (slightly) in the example above to give the monk that belt of physical might +4 (just over 37% total wealth).
And if you go with the 'balanced approach' (page 402 of CRB), nothing can cost more than 25% of your total wealth. In the balanced approach, you have a total 16,000 gp at 6th level; 25% of that is 4,000 gp, which puts the amulet out of your price range. I know some people don't play that way, but I try to.
MA
Interesting. I've never really looked at WBL charts; I was going by my experience with PFS (you mentioned choosing 12th level for that reason). Most of my PCs are buying a +2 stat item (4k gold) at about 4th-5th level, so I was seeing a 1k gold increase delaying it by 2 levels, which seemed weird.
I like how you also made the Monk using Core only. How using some style feats? How about actually using those other options. If your using Agile and Brawling which are not Core than perhaps the Monk should have some items that are not Core.