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Dudeacles,
I agree about Step Up. It's a core feat, it's new in Pathfinder, and it would serve the community of 3.5 veterans well to see that feat used in a sample character.
But the pre-gens aren't supposed to be better than average. If they had all the useful skills, there would be less motivation to build your own PC.
Even as a starting off GM, having someone sit down with one as a spur of the moment impulse, I have seen more frustration with the icons. A caster with no spell craft skill? A complaint I get is 'I can't contribute' to skill rolls with them. It is hard to encourage a player to roleplay whe the have ZERO skills to do a faction mission skill check or help move the game along by identifying something that 'most (insert class name here) would know'.
They don't have to be uber specced but they could use a LITTLE polish for society play.
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Dudeacles,
I agree about Step Up. It's a core feat, it's new in Pathfinder, and it would serve the community of 3.5 veterans well to see that feat used in a sample character.
But the pre-gens aren't supposed to be better than average. If they had all the useful skills, there would be less motivation to build your own PC.
Even as a starting off GM, having someone sit down with one as a spur of the moment impulse, I have seen more frustration with the icons. A caster with no spell craft skill? A complaint I get is 'I can't contribute' to skill rolls with them. It is hard to encourage a player to roleplay whe the have ZERO skills to do a faction mission skill check or help move the game along by identifying something that 'most (insert class name here) would know'.
They don't have to be uber specced but they could use a LITTLE polish for society play.
Exactly! Frustration sets in when you are severely limited as to what you can contribute. So prospective players get turned off when they can't contribute with a skill check that their character SHOULD have.
It's just a big bummer :(
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Dudeacles,
I agree about Step Up. It's a core feat, it's new in Pathfinder, and it would serve the community of 3.5 veterans well to see that feat used in a sample character.
But the pre-gens aren't supposed to be better than average. If they had all the useful skills, there would be less motivation to build your own PC.
Even as a starting off GM, having someone sit down with one as a spur of the moment impulse, I have seen more frustration with the icons. A caster with no spell craft skill? A complaint I get is 'I can't contribute' to skill rolls with them. It is hard to encourage a player to roleplay whe the have ZERO skills to do a faction mission skill check or help move the game along by identifying something that 'most (insert class name here) would know'.
They don't have to be uber specced but they could use a LITTLE polish for society play.
Exactly! Frustration sets in when you are severely limited as to what you can contribute. So prospective players get turned off when they can't contribute with a skill check that their character SHOULD have.
It's just a big bummer :(
Well, I can confirm that 1st level Ezren in the NPC Codex has Knowledge (Arcana, history, nature, planes), as well as spellcraft and two other trained skills.
So, please stop worrying and fretting over it and wait until the book comes out.
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Dudeacles,
I agree about Step Up. It's a core feat, it's new in Pathfinder, and it would serve the community of 3.5 veterans well to see that feat used in a sample character.
But the pre-gens aren't supposed to be better than average. If they had all the useful skills, there would be less motivation to build your own PC.
Even as a starting off GM, having someone sit down with one as a spur of the moment impulse, I have seen more frustration with the icons. A caster with no spell craft skill? A complaint I get is 'I can't contribute' to skill rolls with them. It is hard to encourage a player to roleplay whe the have ZERO skills to do a faction mission skill check or help move the game along by identifying something that 'most (insert class name here) would know'.
They don't have to be uber specced but they could use a LITTLE polish for society play.
Exactly! Frustration sets in when you are severely limited as to what you can contribute. So prospective players get turned off when they can't contribute with a skill check that their character SHOULD have.
It's just a big bummer :(
Well, I can confirm that 1st level Ezren in the NPC Codex has Knowledge (Arcana, history, nature, planes), as well as spellcraft and two other trained skills.
So, please stop worrying and fretting over it and wait until the book comes out.
That's good to know. There were several times while I was playing Season 4 scenarios at Brewfest last weekend where the GM asked "Does anyone have Knowledge(planes)?" and I could swear that crickets had found there way under our table.
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Well, I can confirm that 1st level Ezren in the NPC Codex has Knowledge (Arcana, history, nature, planes), as well as spellcraft and two other trained skills.
So, please stop worrying and fretting over it and wait until the book comes out.
Sweet, I'm with Dragonmoon and Josh with: Some extra knowledge skills go a long way :!)
And thanks too Michael for the earlier PM-response about character xp.
Venture-Lieutenant, Maryland—Baltimore
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Does anyone happen to have a better character sheet printout of the Iconics (PreGens) other than the ones linked here?
I'm still fairly new, and will be using a PreGen tomorrow, however, I could use a better printout of the skills/feats/traits/etc. if it exists. Thanks ahead!
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Robyn,
Not quite what Dunkren was looking for. He appears to be looking for a standard character sheet write-up for the pregens, rather than the stat block version provided by Paizo.
I remember seeing something like that mentioned during one of the various discussions on this forum on the pregens, someone posting PDFs printed from HeroLab for them, IIRC, but I don't know the thread, nor am I certain they are recent enough to be the current versions of the pregens.
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Most of the abilities, etc on the pregens are either explained on the sheet, or are static bonuses that are already factored into the stats. Why do we need an alternate pregen sheet? It has the necessary stat block information and some role-play details to help understand their nitch and outlook. There are descriptions of each feat, power, ability that should suffice in being able to play the character. For space concerns, there are a few things that you need to reference the core rulebook for, like spells, a more thorough description of two-weapon fighting, etc. No character sheet is likely to be 100%, totally usable without the CRB for reference. There is just too much information to be contained on one page.
Are you asking for a different version just because you prefer a different layout visually or are there specific issues you have with lack of descriptive information from a particular pregen? Updating the pregen sheets, yet again, is probably not high on Paizo's "to do" list, but Mike does keep a list of notes for things to accomplish if/when something is updated in the future.
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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Can I pregen a level 1 for one of the First Steps intro scenarios and apply it to my level 2 character?
No.
First steps must be played with a level 1 character, and the only option for a chronicle earned by a 1st-level pregen is to apply the chronicle to a newly created character.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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I'd recommend putting almost all your characters through "First Steps"; after a while you find that there just aren't enough scenarios you haven't played to get another character up through the lower levels. (For example, season 4 has exactly six tier 1-5 and seven tier 3-7 scenarios; that will get one character up to level five, with one scenario left over). Putting two characters through all three parts of "First Steps" adds another six chronicles to the pool; stepping up as GM for another six scenarios gives you enough to get that second player up to level five.
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I was asking because my (just now level 2) character played 2/3 of the First Steps after playing one other scenario. Would've been neat to play through all 3 with the same character. I'm sure it'll happen eventually, though. I have three characters so far and haven't been able to do it with any of them.
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I was asking because my (just now level 2) character played 2/3 of the First Steps after playing one other scenario. Would've been neat to play through all 3 with the same character. I'm sure it'll happen eventually, though. I have three characters so far and haven't been able to do it with any of them.
That happens, sometimes,
Sometimes, the best option is to step up and GM the full First Step yourself, and put all the credits on a new PC. You get to see them as a more-or-less coherent whole, and get the extra PC at 2nd level.
Warning! Warning!
If you use GM credit, or other non-play credit (non-play being credits gained from using pregens or modules like We Be Goblins! where you aren't actually playing your own PC), it limits you to an all-or-nothign approach with that PC.
Since that PC starts at 2nd level, you won't have any ability to rebuild it after playing it.
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Spoiler:Which is the problem I am having, due to a required rebuild of my Dhampir PC, once he gets played, he is locked in, and with no experience playing him at 1st level as what he will be from now on. Former Undead Lord Cleric, with 3 XP.
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Just wanting to make sure of something about pregens, Herolab and hand outs at games. I've gone in and built the iconic pregens from scratch, meaning I didn't use the pregens that come with Herolab, but started with a blank character sheet and the downloaded Paizo pregens for Society play, and filled in all info from that. I'm just wanting to be sure it's legal to hand out these to players at my table. I like and am more familiar with the Herolab layout, making it easier to help a newer player quickly find the info needed. "What do add for a fort Save?" "Where does it tell me what to add for attack and do I add that to my damage?" The layouts different enough I have to search helter skelter for the info on the official pregen sheet because I started out using Herolab from the get go. Wondering if doing so violates any of the "Personal use" clauses? Any thoughts?
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on the point about pregens not being "too good" because whats the point of building your own character.
If the pregens were the best, most optimized characters in the world, people wouldn't want to play them because it's not their character. I don't think that is a reasonable argument.
If people can feel useful with a pregen, they are more likely to play pregens when needed as opposed to skipping days if they don't have a character in the level range.
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I actually like the stat block format for the pregens. It is a good introduction for players into the GMing world, where every monster and npc uses the standard stat block.
One of the things I have noticed as I GM more and more is how much quicker I am about reading stat blocks and finding the most important items I need in them. I am sure I must not be alone in this.
I have even taken it a bit further, and for most things except keeping track of equipment, I am fine running all my PFS characters from a stat block output from HeroLab
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It has come to my attention that there are iconic pregens built into the Hero Lab program of various different levels, including 8+. I spoke to John Ryan at Wolflsair about it this morning and he advised the following:
Yes, we provide pre-gens of 8+ levels with Hero Lab. All the pre-gens we supply come from various Adventure Paths when they included sample characters in them. For example, the level 10 Kyra came from Pathfinder AP #40, Vaults of Madness.
These pregens included with Hero Lab are not legal for PFS and should not be used for PFS games. The only pregens legal for PFS are the level 1, 4, and 7 pregens available for free download here a Paizo.com. This is especially true for people wanting to use high level pregens, such as level 10, to play in sub tier 10-11.
I will update the FAQ in a bit.
Even the 1, 4, 7 Hero Lab Iconic Pregens are not legal. They have a 15 point buy and we use 20 points.
Saiman
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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@David: Maybe you should take another look at the ACG pregens.
We played Carrion Hill with the level 4 Zadim (Slayer) and he proved quite capable of pulling his own weight. We all cheered when he used his potion of invisibility to sneak up on a nasty wizard and shove that wizard into his own Black Tentacles. I've also heard from other people that the ACG pregens are better-built, with more useful consumables and ability to handle more situations themselves.
Of course, the ACG pregens are considerably more advanced than CRB pregens, and not ideal for starting players; but the same is true for adventures where you'd need level 7 pregens anyway.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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I'd be somewhat surprised if a 7th level character was a full contributor in a 8-9 tier, but it's doable. For a pregen, you'd have to be bringing one that has just the right things the party was still lacking in. Doing it at 10-11 would be a huge surprise.
But in tier 6-7, I'd expect a pregen to be a good contribution to the party and fun to play.
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And Lini and Amiri and all of the others. I don't really recall seeing someone play a pregen and not have some positive impact on the scenario. Heck I've seen a person playing in their first ever PFS scenario play Valeros through the 10-11 subtier of The Elven Entanglement and not only survive, but contribute to the encounters leding up to the finale. Granted, he got paralyzed by an SLA from the BBEG alongside another person playing up with their own PC, but the rest of us pulled together and finshed the encounter.
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Nope, I just finished looking them over, they're pretty solid. I'm not looking for muder machines, just solidly built characters, and those three are all solidly built. Could they be built better? Sure, but they are all able to show up and make a difference at a table as they are.
Eit: As an aside, I find it funny (funny ha-ha, not funny weird) that we are having this conversation in a thread necro from over a year and a half ago, necro'd by someone who just repeated what the Brock said previously.
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Both Ezren and Oloch have the versatility of being casters, and Oloch's fervors basically let him cast whatever buff he wants as a swift action six times a day, which seems really good, plus he hits pretty hard without buffs. Ezren has AoE spells prepped and can either get a second Fireball or a Lightning Bolt from his arcane bond, so he can put out damage and deal with swarms. Harsk could benefit from a better selection of feats, but if he gets to reprep his spells it expands his abilities a bit further. He can also help the party by readying to disrupt casters, and he has a badger, which seems cool to me. I want a burrowing, raging hate machine.
You say you've seen "too many tables go south because of pregens" but can you actually give me a specific example? And where were the PC's at those tables? Characters can contribute in more ways than just DPR, and I find it quite humorous that you are holding a lack of damage dealing against the Investigator. However, with studied strike he's doing 3d6+3 a hit, which alongside his CL 7 wand of scorching ray doesn't seem too shabby to me, and also benefits even further if he gets the chance to reprep his extracts.
As for leaving tables with pregens playing up, whatever. It wouldn't stop me, and hasn't stopped me, and still won't stop me from playing with others in the future.
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Pregens directly contributed to failures on the part of the PCs when I GMed King of Storval Stairs and also Fabric of Reality. Oloch didn't hit anything when fighting the harpy archers.
We nearly wiped on Sealed Gate because pregens couldn't contribute and they massively underperformed in Assault on the Wound, too.
I didn't tell others to leave. Go ahead and play all you like with them.
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The problems you bring up are all problems I saw with PC's in the scenarios you mentioned, those aren't problems unique to pregens. In Sealed Gate we only had 3 people able to deal with swarms. Storval Stairs is just notoriously brutal, with that encounter you mentioned being particularly dangerous. I haven't played/GM'd Fabric of Reality so I can't comment on it. But using two notably dangerous scenarios as reasons why the pregens aren't good is not making a very compelling argument.
As for Assault on the Wound, there are only two fights where the character being played really mattered, one of which is against things which can very easily kill normal characters, and the other is against the BBEG that is a class that many consider to be very deadly, so again criticizing a pregen for not excelling in that fight is also puzzling.
Also, I didn't say you told others to leave, I could have been more clear about that. I think that wimping out on a table because of a pregen is a pretty weak excuse, but it's your right to not play at a table if you don't want to.
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I don't think it's wimping out in a finite-resource campaign. That and people playing pregens have nothing to lose; that's one half or maybe a third of the problem with them.
I'm more inclined to be willing to play with a pregen in a season 0-2 7-11, but even those sometimes will throw out a random glabrezu, against which the level 7 pregens are basically useless. At least for dpr.
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You seem to be just be using DPR as the only apparent metric for determing the value of a character, which I strongly disagree with. It just appears to be a fundamental difference in the way the two of us play Pathfinder. You're entitled to your opinion, I disagree with it, but I respect your right to it. I'm going to have to just agree to disagree, and bow out of this conversation.
Edit: for clarity.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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I don't think it's wimping out in a finite-resource campaign. That and people playing pregens have nothing to lose; that's one half or maybe a third of the problem with them.
I'm more inclined to be willing to play with a pregen in a season 0-2 7-11, but even those sometimes will throw out a random glabrezu, against which the level 7 pregens are basically useless. At least for dpr.
Any level 7 is basically useless against a glabrezu or other high CR demon. I always advise against a level 7 playing up in a 7-11. Often because something will have
Up to caster level –5 | Paralyzed, weakened, dazed
That's a very un-fun way to spend a 1-2 hour fight.