One technicality is that this isn't exactly true for a character who is either already in the situation of being able to hit only on a 20, or able to only miss on a 1 even with the -2 penalty.That's true. However such situations are unusual, and this talent isn't going to have any meaningful impact on the outcome of the battle.
If you need a natural 20 to hit, an extra point or two of damage on a lucky natural 20 isn't going to help.
And if you only miss on a natural 1, the encounter is a walk-over.
And really, with a 3/4 BAB class, without any attack increasing class abilities, that's really only going to ever happen with things like oozes...
...which are immune to sneak attacks.
Even if you're just a level 10 rogue killing off CR 4-5 mooks, the ability is still a wash because you would be killing those weak, weak creatures anyways. Might as well invest in something that makes you more proficient in killing something that's difficult to kill.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Axl, I think we are just having a semantic disagreement over what 10% means in this context. I'd be happy to argue it with you in another thread, but the short version is that I agree with you but also don't think that what I wrote was wrong.
The basic point that using the talents reduces your dpr except in odd corner cases is something I think we both agree on.
When looking at Elephant Stomp, I wonder if maybe the intent was that you could continue your movement after taking the attack? Sort of Trample as a feat?
Assuming you're a level 20 Rogue only hitting on a natural 20, Powerful Sneak increases your sneak attack damage from 35 to just under 37. That's still an improvement of less than +2. Which means it still does less than Weapon Specialization.
So even in the bizarre corner case it still isn't worth considering.
...a few of their more loyal forum lackies.Come on man, was that necessary? Regardless of it being true?No. It absolutely wasn't necessary.
New feats, spells and other "options" that restrict what you can do rather than expand upon it have always been a soar spot for me. Drives me crazy, sometimes causing me to say things.
Particular examples include Strike Back (which anyone could do sans feat had it not existed) and interplanetary teleport (which greater teleport could do prior to its release).
Interplanetary Teleport is understandable for the sake of campaing consistency, otherwise all liches would be space travelers, and gives a reasonable handwave of why Greater Teleport is not enough. Also, Distant World wasn't out when the core came out so it isn't really a nerf.
Strike Back has no excuse, if they feel that option needed clarification they should've added a paragraph in the combat section not in the feat section.
Yawar
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I don't see strike back as a bad feat at all. It's not a great one, but it's definitely not something I would allow my players to do without the feat. The BAB requirement seems high, but whatever.
Why wouldn't you allow it if the feat didn't exist?
One of the reasons to use readied actions in the first place is to take your action in disruption of someone else's action (otherwise, you'd be better off just delaying until immediately before or immediately after that person's turn and getting your entire full round action).
Monster with 15 ft reach due to size goes in to claw me. I have an action readied to stab at him when part of his body somes within reach, so I stab him in the wrist. How is that not exactly what the ready system was meant to handle? Maybe you can't do precision damage because you can "only strike at limbs" (whatever; plenty of vital bloodlines and such are in limbs as well, but that's a separate issue), but you should certainly be able to melee attack for normal damage!
There was no need to make an already existing simple use of the ready system into a feat, and giving it super high requirements is just mean.
The problem with allowing that action is that it disrupts existing game mechanics.
If a huge monster makes an AoO against me while I move up to attack it, can I stop after it attacks me and attack its limb instead of moving the full distance to close melee?
What about an enemy with a polearm?
You would need to draw up houserules to cover these situations. If you wanna do that for your game, that's fine. I suppose that the Paizo/WotC staff decided that it was unnecessarily complicated.
You can ready an action to sunder the attacker (an attack) or the weapon (sunder) already.
So polearm users get sundered without feat.Non-polearm users can just be attacked with a ready as they must have limb within your threatened range.
How did this feat add anything?
The most you can move during a ready is 5 ft.
And you can already ready to 5 ft step in and attack a guy w/ a reach weapon as he is about to attack you to screw him over.
Why is this any worse?
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I suppose that the Paizo/WotC staff decided that it was unnecessarily complicated.
The WotC staff (or at least the FAQ writer) suggested a house rule for making AoOs against reach creatures using grapple/sunder/etc:
consider the following house rule that the Sage has used in his games in the past: If a foe would provoke an attack of opportunity with any action that brings him (or something he holds) into contact with you or your space, you can make an attack of opportunity against the foe (or the object he holds, if that’s what’s contacting you). This means that an ogre trying to initiate a grapple would provoke an attack of opportunity that you could make against the ogre (since his hand and arm are clearly coming within your reach to grab you), while the same ogre trying to sunder your weapon with his greatclub would provoke an attack of opportunity that you could make only against the greatclub (that is, with a disarm or sunder attempt).
The same house rule could easily be used to also apply to readied actions.
It certainly is; I just wanted to point out that WotC at least had some thoughts on the matter :)
My vote for worst feat ever goes to HAMMER THE GAP. Not because it doesn't do anything but because the feat promises so much.
I first saw it and was reminded of Tome of Battle's move: Girrillon Windmill Flesh Rip.
Because the feat adds extra damage based on consecutive hits.
For a TWF with some 7 odd attacks it sounded awesome.
Till you do the math realizing the word CONSECUTIVE kills the feat. You need to hit like 5 consecutive times to equal Weapon Spec.
Do the odds of 5 consecutive hits.
This is only to be taken for 20th level with a hasted, +45/45/45/40/40/35/35/30 attack routine. Before that it blows.
Improved Critical or Crit focus is sooo much better.
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Over any adventuring career, the rogue with the sneak attack talents will lose more damage due to the hit penalty than they will gain due to the better sneak attack rolls.But if you happen to hit with every single attack and then you happen to roll 1's on every single sneak attack die, then those talents make you turn a profit! So provided you're using d20's loaded toward you and d6's loaded against you, they're useful.
ive used it on my rogue before, and i liked it. play smart and build you character competently and it will be a boon.
this board thinks in terms of averages, i think in terms of worst case cenario, and i can tell you i have had games where i wouldnt see anything higher then a 3 on my d6.
and interplanetary teleport (which greater teleport could do prior to its release).
Interplanetary Teleport lets you go on very basic information (like the planet's name) and you arrive in a place where you won't die of the environment (and if such a place does not exist the spell doesn't work). Greater Teleport does not do these things.
But worst case scenerio isn't that you role a bunch of 1's; worst case scenerio is that you get into position, set up for the sneak attack, and then completely miss and accomplish nothing. Rouge isn't a full BAB class, so this happens too much anyway. With this it's even worse.Over any adventuring career, the rogue with the sneak attack talents will lose more damage due to the hit penalty than they will gain due to the better sneak attack rolls.But if you happen to hit with every single attack and then you happen to roll 1's on every single sneak attack die, then those talents make you turn a profit! So provided you're using d20's loaded toward you and d6's loaded against you, they're useful.ive used it on my rogue before, and i liked it. play smart and build you character competantly and it will be a boon.
this board thinks in terms of averages, i think in terms of worst case cenario, and i can tell you i have had games where i wouldnt see anything higher then a 3 on my d6.
and here is where i say again " play smart and build you character competently and it will be a boon." my character went 3 levels of weapon master (wakazashi),1 level of urban barbarian, gloves of dueling, and was completely capable of hitting a flanked target 80% of the time.
yes i lowered by SA by 2d6, but i increased my damage by +5 and my to hit by +7 so the gain was worth the loss.
i will say it one more time, because i know people are going to say things like you can only do it by minmaxing (stupid term), or by not playing a solid rogue.
"play smart and build you character competently and it will be a boon."
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and here is where i say again " play smart and build you character competently and it will be a boon." my character went 3 levels of weapon master (wakazashi),1 level of urban barbarian, gloves of dueling, and was completely capable of hitting a flanked target 80% of the time.
yes i lowered by SA by 2d6, but i increased my damage by +5 and my to hit by +7 so the gain was worth the loss.
i will say it one more time, because i know people are going to say things like you can only do it by minmaxing (stupid term), or by not playing a solid rogue.
"play smart and build you character competently and it will be a boon."
If you're hitting 80% of the time with Powerful Sneak, then you're hitting 90% of the time without it.
At 20th level, when Powerful Sneak helps you the most because you have the most Sneak Attack dice, it increases your average damage on a hit by... 1.3. Woohoo. Meanwhile, the miss chance it induces reduces your average Sneak Attack damage by 2.8, and that's not even counting your weapon's own regular damage or any damage lost by the reduced crit chance. It doesn't even help the "worst-case scenario" because the worst-case scenario is still a flat miss for no damage, and you've doubled your chance of that happening.
So even with your "smart" build, Powerful Sneak is still making you worse.
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wow its like talking to a brick wall...
ok i will live in your world where ever npc has an insane ac, never moves into a flanking position,dice are perfect, and all damage results in averages. by those qualifications YOU WIN DA ARGUMENT!!! gratz to yaz!
now in real life, im blending mooks in 1-2 hits, im hitting often enough to be satasfied with my increase in minimum damage, and dont care about average damage or its equations because i know, pay attention now!,dice ARE NOT RANDOM. they favor particular numbers, either by a wide margin, or a small. ever wonder why your gm crits so much when he pulls out his "special" dice? its because they are lopsided, you need to take that into account with your math... wait you cant account for that variable when computing the numbers? i already knew that.
now this varible will skew any paper math. so before you open your mouth telling me im "worse off", just dont. like i said i use this class feature and i was very happy with never rolling lower then a 3 on my unlucky, lopsided, d6 dice.
would i take this at low levels, no
would i take this as a solid rogue, no
peace out, im now irritated and dont want to take part in a discussion insults me using flawed math.
Then elephant stomp is a strong candidate to the worst feat ever.As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square.
Strong contender right besides Prone shooter and Monkey Lunge.
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Strong contender right besides Prone shooter and Monkey Lunge.Then elephant stomp is a strong candidate to the worst feat ever.As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square.
I think it's currently in the win position. It's the only one of the feats so far that actually makes you worse if you use it. Monkey Lunge had some out of combat utility that was brought up (like stretching that extra little bit to grab a ledge/item/etc.), and Prone Shooter just does nothing.
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wow its like talking to a brick wall...
Indeed it is, when people refuse to learn math and goes with anecdotal "evidence"
Even if dice aren't random, that doesn't change anything. The d20 you use to hit isn't random either. Fact is, when you use power sneak, you do less damage, on average, than when you don't. That's not something to argue, because it is a fact. Just like 2+2=4, or the Pythagoras Theorem. It's not opinion. There's no opinion in math.
Power sneak is a trap feat. By definition, a trap feat is one that does not "look" bad when you see it, so a lot of people go and take it. But it IS a bad feat, because the net effect makes you worse (and a feat poorer). Now you can learn about this, and avoid trap feats, or keep using them, and having characters that are mechanically worse. It's up to you. Nothing wrong with wanting to be mechanically worse. I once had a player that took a blind character. It was mechanically worse, but he was happy. If you are happy, keep using Power Sneak. But your character would do more damage if you took Skill Focus in Profession: Street Sweeper. At the very least, you wouldn't be gimping your to hit ratio.
This isn't technically useless, but it's pretty awful:
Echoing Spell (Metamagic)
You have learned how to release most, but not all, of a spell's potential when you cast it.
Benefit: When you cast an echoing spell, it does not disappear entirely from memory, and you can cast it one additional time during that day. No effect that allows you to reprepare or recast a spell can affect the echoed spell. If you prepare spells, this second casting does not require you to prepare it in another spell slot. If you spontaneously cast spells, this second casting does not expend another available spell slot. An echoing spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell's actual level.
So you use a slot 3 levels higher to cast the spell twice. I can envisage occasions where that might possibly be handy, but no way is it worth a feat.
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wow its like talking to a brick wall...
ok i will live in your world where ever npc has an insane ac, never moves into a flanking position,dice are perfect,
Reading is helpful:
If you're hitting 80% of the time with Powerful Sneak, then you're hitting 90% of the time without it.
I was granting as an assumption that you were indeed hitting 80% of the time even with Powerful Sneak. Guess what? Even with that assumption, it still hurts you. You might still be decent in combat even with it, but you'd be better without it.
The crocked dice argument is just nonsense. By that logic, I may as well say that the Critical feats are the real worst feats in the game because I might be using a loaded d20 that is incapable of rolling higher than a 14.
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Some people just want to see maths burn.
My vote for worst feat ever goes to HAMMER THE GAP. Not because it doesn't do anything but because the feat promises so much.
I first saw it and was reminded of Tome of Battle's move: Girrillon Windmill Flesh Rip.
Because the feat adds extra damage based on consecutive hits.
For a TWF with some 7 odd attacks it sounded awesome.
Till you do the math realizing the word CONSECUTIVE kills the feat. You need to hit like 5 consecutive times to equal Weapon Spec.Do the odds of 5 consecutive hits.
This is only to be taken for 20th level with a hasted, +45/45/45/40/40/35/35/30 attack routine. Before that it blows.
Improved Critical or Crit focus is sooo much better.
Hammer the Gap won't be so bad once Mythic Rules are released. Removing iterative penalties will go a long way to helping this feat. Granted, that will only apply to Mythic characters but it's still an improvement.
As for worst feat, put me in for Elephant Stomp and Prone Shooter. I just chalk up the crap from Monkey Lunge to a typo (should be move action or immediate action).
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And here's another dreadful one:
Improved Stonecunning
Your sense for stonework is uncanny.
Prerequisites: Wis 13, dwarf, stonecunning racial trait.
Benefit: You receive a +4 bonus on Perception checks to notice unusual stonework. This bonus replaces the stonecunning ability's normal bonus on Perception checks.
So it gives you a smaller bonus (+2) than Skill Focus (much smaller with 10 ranks) or less benefit than Alertness, and it only works on funny rocks. I'm sold.
So it gives you a smaller bonus (+2) than Skill Focus (much smaller with 10 ranks) or less benefit than Alertness, and it only works on funny rocks. I'm sold.
But it stacks with them! So once you've taken Skill Focus (Perception) and Alertness, if you really really want to be slightly better at noticing unusual stonework, it's helpful!
...yeah, all the really situational minor racial bonuses that I never even remember the one time in a blue moon they show up are already inconvenient to work with; there's no way I'd ever consider burning a feat on slightly improving one. It's not really the "worst" since it does at least give a benefit and the only way it hurts you is in opportunity cost, but it's still awful.
LOL at improved stonecutting. That one is awful too.
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I'll say it before and I'll say it again.
Summoner's Call
Whenever you summon your eidolon, it is more powerful for a brief period of time.
Prerequisite: Eidolon class feature.
Benefit: Whenever you summon your eidolon, you may give it a +2 enhancement bonus to its Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution. This bonus lasts 10 minutes after the summoning ritual is complete.
Is the worst feat ever. Name me a situation this is useful? Do not say "when I use Summon Eidolon" because the Augment Summoning feat is better AND you only get a +2 to ONE physical score AND it's an enhancement bonus so it doesn't stack with the Eidolon evolutions.
I forgot to mention that this is especially unhelpful after the 1 minute summoning ritual you have to cast to summon your eidolon. Name me a time where you are in combat "conviently" within 10 minutes after you happen to spend a minute summoning your eidolon.
I'll say it before and I'll say it again.
Summoner's Call
Whenever you summon your eidolon, it is more powerful for a brief period of time.
Prerequisite: Eidolon class feature.
Benefit: Whenever you summon your eidolon, you may give it a +2 enhancement bonus to its Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution. This bonus lasts 10 minutes after the summoning ritual is complete.
Is the worst feat ever. Name me a situation this is useful? Do not say "when I use Summon Eidolon" because the Augment Summoning feat is better AND you only get a +2 to ONE physical score AND it's an enhancement bonus so it doesn't stack with the Eidolon evolutions.
I forgot to mention that this is especially unhelpful after the 1 minute summoning ritual you have to cast to summon your eidolon. Name me a time where you are in combat "conviently" within 10 minutes after you happen to spend a minute summoning your eidolon.
It's useful when you play a race (such as elf) that can summon their eidolon in 1 round via their 3rd favored class option (which reduces summoning time by 1 round per level, to a minimum of 1).
I don't see strike back as a bad feat at all. It's not a great one, but it's definitely not something I would allow my players to do without the feat. The BAB requirement seems high, but whatever.Why wouldn't you allow it if the feat didn't exist?
One of the reasons to use readied actions in the first place is to take your action in disruption of someone else's action (otherwise, you'd be better off just delaying until immediately before or immediately after that person's turn and getting your entire full round action).
Monster with 15 ft reach due to size goes in to claw me. I have an action readied to stab at him when part of his body somes within reach, so I stab him in the wrist. How is that not exactly what the ready system was meant to handle? Maybe you can't do precision damage because you can "only strike at limbs" (whatever; plenty of vital bloodlines and such are in limbs as well, but that's a separate issue), but you should certainly be able to melee attack for normal damage!
There was no need to make an already existing simple use of the ready system into a feat, and giving it super high requirements is just mean.
Huh... Good point. I guess it just seems like it wold take a lot of training, and that's what feats are about.
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That's because no one ever took it.
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From the 3.5 Sandstorm book (which was in most other regards a great book), there is a feat called Blessed of Tem Et Nu...
Prerequisite: must have defeated a hippopotamus in single combat, Patron deity Tem-Et-NuBenefit: Hippopotami cannot attack you unless they are magically compelled.
In addition, if you possess the turn or rebuke undead class feature, you can rebuke and command hippopotami as an evil cleric rebukes or commands undead.
You gain a +2 sacred bonus to your Armor Class against chaotic-aligned creatures with the fire subtype.Special: If you ever lose favor with Tem-Et-Nu, or change your patron deity to another deity, you lose all benefits of this feat and take damage as if you were bitten by a hippopotamus. You do not gain a replacement feat. If you later return to Tem-Et-Nu's faithful and receive an atonement spell, you regain the benefit of this feat.
If for some reason I was playing in campaign world where hippos and hippo varients were a common type of enemy, I might take this feat.
That would be a pretty funny world. Maybe there is an vast world-spanning guild of evil rangers and druids that all take hippos as animal companions? Lol.
Spelljammer and Giff :D
At 12th level a monk of the four winds can spend 6 ki for 3 standard actions - monkey lunge is still totally not worth a feat, though.
Skill Focus: Profession (Lackey) is worth 1.5 gp per week of lackeying (not sure exactly what it's worth for PFS Day Job rolls), not to mention giving you a bonus to answering questions about lackeying. Sure, most traits are probably better than it, but it has some value.Skill Focus: Profession (Lackey)
Unless you have a lackey hireling, and he gets the feat.
Not a standard list profession.
I remember the days when Toughness (back in 3.5e) was the worst feat ever.
It was great if you were a 1st level Elf Wizard. People forget that few 20th level builds ever got that far.
I don't see strike back as a bad feat at all. It's not a great one, but it's definitely not something I would allow my players to do without the feat. The BAB requirement seems high, but whatever.Why wouldn't you allow it if the feat didn't exist?
One of the reasons to use readied actions in the first place is to take your action in disruption of someone else's action (otherwise, you'd be better off just delaying until immediately before or immediately after that person's turn and getting your entire full round action).
Monster with 15 ft reach due to size goes in to claw me. I have an action readied to stab at him when part of his body somes within reach, so I stab him in the wrist. How is that not exactly what the ready system was meant to handle? Maybe you can't do precision damage because you can "only strike at limbs" (whatever; plenty of vital bloodlines and such are in limbs as well, but that's a separate issue), but you should certainly be able to melee attack for normal damage!
There was no need to make an already existing simple use of the ready system into a feat, and giving it super high requirements is just mean.
You can't hit him if he has a reach weapon. But yes, as has been pointed out this isn't B&W and some DM disagree whether it could be done without the feat.
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Some people just want to see maths burn.
I do! I do!!
Huh... Good point. I guess it just seems like it wold take a lot of training, and that's what feats are about.I don't see strike back as a bad feat at all. It's not a great one, but it's definitely not something I would allow my players to do without the feat. The BAB requirement seems high, but whatever.Why wouldn't you allow it if the feat didn't exist?
One of the reasons to use readied actions in the first place is to take your action in disruption of someone else's action (otherwise, you'd be better off just delaying until immediately before or immediately after that person's turn and getting your entire full round action).
Monster with 15 ft reach due to size goes in to claw me. I have an action readied to stab at him when part of his body somes within reach, so I stab him in the wrist. How is that not exactly what the ready system was meant to handle? Maybe you can't do precision damage because you can "only strike at limbs" (whatever; plenty of vital bloodlines and such are in limbs as well, but that's a separate issue), but you should certainly be able to melee attack for normal damage!
There was no need to make an already existing simple use of the ready system into a feat, and giving it super high requirements is just mean.
Well, as it has BAB +11 prereq, and maximum normal human is level 5 or so, it does take a LOT of training. Like... nobody in Earth can do it. O_O