Because the fighter actually proves to be better at it. He loses nothing for using Brass Knuckles, for example (he does 1d3 anyway) and get full enhancement, his weapon training and fighter-only feats can boost his attacks and damage beyond anything a monk can dream of, he can wear a monk's robe or brawling armour...
Basically, the fighter actually proves to be WAY better at unarmed combat from a pure attack and damage point of view. AC will be a bit worse, but not much.
The thing is, the monk's rising damage dice look cool, but his MAD requirements and his lack of enhancement means his odds to hit and his static bonuses - the things that REALLY count in dishing damage - fall well behind the fighter's. By level 20, a fighter will be +5 ahead on attack bonus and will have a +8 static bonus on damage, and he can add another +2 on both for brawling armour (1d3+10 on average beats 2d10) and he has full enhancement on those brass knuckles, he isn't capped at +5.
Then there's the interesting titbit that the unarmed fighter gets proficiency with ALL monk-type weapons, which even the monk doesn't get.
Probably the optimal unarmed combatant is the brawler fighter archetype, with a 1-2 level monk dip.
The thing is, the monk's rising damage dice look cool, but his MAD requirements and his lack of enhancement means his odds to hit and his static bonuses - the things that REALLY count in dishing damage - fall well behind the fighter's. By level 20, a fighter will be +5 ahead on attack bonus and will have a +8 static bonus on damage, and he can add another +2 on both for brawling armour (1d3+10 on average beats 2d10) and he has full enhancement on those brass knuckles, he isn't capped at +5.
Don't forget that you can also toss on the Gloves of Dueling, to give the fighter a total of +10 to hit and +12 damage over the monk (which might be even wider when attributes/enhancements are tossed into the mix).
Another thing to consider is that a Brawler/Unarmed Fighter with a cestus has one other nice advantage over the monk's unarmed strike; the cestus has a 19-20 crit range.
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....How about the ninja? Once they hit level 10 they can take Unarmed Mastery and punch like a monk 4 levels lower. Which doesn't seem awesome, until they start adding in sneak attack dice, which they can get really easily. I think they are currently the unarmed combat kings.
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my opinion is that you don't pick a monk for the pure damage output alone. you pick him for the mobility tricks, the supernatural defenses, the low reliance on gear, and the special abilities. Sure, a fighter can hit harder and customize more, but the monk gets things that the fighter simply cannot get without heavy investment of magic items. I do agree that the monk can feel pretty lackluster at points, and the fighter can close a lot of gaps with the right items, but that's the point. A fighter has to SPECIALIZE to match a monk; a monk just does it naturally and has gold leftover for other stuff.
my opinion is that you don't pick a monk for the pure damage output alone. you pick him for the mobility tricks, the supernatural defenses, the low reliance on gear, and the special abilities.
I agree with all your statements save the last - a monk is NOT less reliant on gear, he is reliant on less gear, but he is more reliant on that gear. In short, he's just as reliant on gear as any other class.
Sure, a fighter can hit harder and customize more, but the monk gets things that the fighter simply cannot get without heavy investment of magic items.
Whereas I have to point out that the fighter gets things the monk cannot get at all, magic items or not.
I do agree that the monk can feel pretty lackluster at points, and the fighter can close a lot of gaps with the right items, but that's the point. A fighter has to SPECIALIZE to match a monk; a monk just does it naturally and has gold leftover for other stuff.
That's not strictly true, a monk has to put the same effort in to being effective that the fighter has to put in in order to specialise. The fighter can be an effective fighter without the effort, a monk has problems functioning at all without this level of effort. That's the problem with the current monk, really.
A fighter has to SPECIALIZE to match a monk; a monk just does it naturally and has gold leftover for other stuff.
And how much of the "left over" gold is the monk going to need to sink into trying to get a half-decent offense? Slow fall or being able to spend two ki for a free healing potion is a poor substitute for actually being able to hit and damage enemies.
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Weapon Training +4 to hit/damage
Gloves of Dueling +2 to hit/damage
Greater Weapon Focus +2 to hit
Greater Weapon Specialization +4 damage
*Brawling property* +2 to hit/damage (new from Ult. Equip.!)
= +12 to hit, +10 damage
Monk 20 = 2d10 = 11 average damage
Fighter 20 = 1d3 = 2 average damage
This is assuming they have same str, enhancement, etc... In reality, Fighter probably has higher str, because he has much much less wis reliance and can wear armor and deal w/ a lower dex.
Fighter 20 is hitting at +12 over the monk (even better when not full attacking and monk can't use his flurry's full BAB) and is doing 2+10 = 12 average damage from unique bonuses and feats + base weapon damage vs. monk's 11 avg. base damage. If the fighter translates some of his attack bonus superiority into Power Attack, the gap gets even wider.
Fighter is winning the damage contest in spectacular fashion.
And doing this at level 20 is kind of being nice to the monk. Until double digit levels, his unarmed strike is only going up by +1 avg. damage every 4 levels, generally. Fighter's getting +1 to hit and damage from weapon training alone every 4 levels.
Also, Fighter *can* dip Monk 1 or get a monk's belt to increase that d3 to d6 and boost his damage by another 1.5 points.
Monk has better saves and mobility, but making a saving throw never killed anybody, nor did moving really fast (unless using tome of battle, then moving fast can kill; I love that book...). And the faster the enemy's dead, the less saves you'll have to roll. In any case, reflex is only important if the foe has Dazing Spell, and Fighter has far more free to play with feats to afford Iron Will and close the gap in base will saves to a 4 point difference.
Another key advantage the fighter has is not having to dea lw/ flurry's stupid ass restrictions. Nothing's stopping the fighter from getting claws and a bite and tacking them on to his unarmed (TWF, if he wants) full attack as secondary natural attacks. Monk simply can't do that.
my opinion is that you don't pick a monk for the pure damage output alone. you pick him for the mobility tricks, the supernatural defenses, the low reliance on gear, and the special abilities.
See flavor wise the above is true, but in reality a Monk needs more gear just not mundane armor.
Monk is the most gear/magic reliant class in the game.
So I'm wondering why would you not use a sword as a fighter instead of your fist.
Because you've devoted your life to making monks cry?
I agree, there's no logical reason to do so. Unarmed combat is hella underpowered and terrible. People see all the class features (which are supposed to leave you off better than you were before in some way), and think, "wow! they get a lot of stuff!"
They don't realize how minor and un-synergistic that stuff all is, and how it can hardly even make up for the gimpy restrictions you need to follow (unarmed or godawful weapons, unarmored, no shield -- hell, even my WIZARD can use a mithral buckler no problem!), which means the class features aren't even really bringing you back to the starting line, let alone making you actually better.
So I'm wondering why would you not use a sword as a fighter instead of your fist.
Because sometimes flavor and concept trump our want for MORE POWER!
I personally have always wanted to run a heavily armored armored monk, but haven't got a chance to. My options for this would be A)Unarmed Fighter + a couple feats or B) The new Paladin/Monk PrC with TWF and a lot of a ability finagling.
Edit: I should clarify that I'm not saying anybody is being munchkin-y or powergaming with the "more power" thing. It's more a case of "I'll take a slightly substandard character so I can fit this flavor"
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i have to point this out every time someone compares a monk and a fighter...
a fighter will have enough of a bonus to saves even with a modifier of 0 to his wisdom. all he need take is:
+5 cloak of resistance
+1 guardian enchant on his main weapon (a +5 enhancement bonus will net a +5 when not attacking)
+6 head band of wisdom
+6 for being level 20
+2 iron will
+free reroll on a failed save improved iron will
a dragon has a dc 27 save as its best spell(will) while my fighter will have a static + 23 and i know i forgot a few extra bonuses here and there.
so saving throws are not really anything to brag about. and keep in mind this will work for any level, i just chose 20 as the standard because these levels have the highest saves.
Plus fighter are just boring to play. No monster standing right in front of me, well I have nothing to contribute to the party.
Now if you games are simply see monster, kill monster, see monster, kill monster - then full figher is great and full monk not so much.
However, fighter/monk is always great.
and then you realise that there is more to roleplay then skill ranks.
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To be fair, a monk can also become decent...
...by discarding as much of his "monk essence" as possible:
- Taking no more than a few levels in the actual monk class
- Taking archetypes like Sohei and Master of Many Styles to get rid of iconic monk features and styles such as flurrying
- Wearing armor and shield
- Possibly using weapons
The less like the iconic monk you resemble, the stronger your "monk" can become!
Who plays fighter or monk from level 1 to 20. I would certainly never do so with eiher. For that reason, these fighter v. monk conversation always bore me.
It not fighter v. monk, its fighter/monk. Fighter/monk has great saves, skills, evasion, plenty of damage and accuracy, escapability.
Yes, but if you have a made a monk to be scout (which is not such a bad idea actually) then you need those skill points.
Pure monk can be OK, but you have turbo the optimisation to the max just to make them function reliably.
Then there's the interesting titbit that the unarmed fighter gets proficiency with ALL monk-type weapons, which even the monk doesn't get.
Biggest slap-in-the-face I've ever seen, methinks.
Also, if your GM is good with the idea that you can further enchant specific magic weapons/armor, then your AC doesn't even have to suffer, since Celestial Chainmail will count as Light for that Brawling property.