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Hey guys!
I have this monk in my group that I am GMing, and I am not sure what weaknesses I can exploit in combat.
He is currently level 4 and has a lot of experience with playing the monk class.
He is using a 20 stat build, monk of many styles.
The stances he uses are a combination of panther style (with claw) and boar style? Basically, he pwns small enemies, by running past everyone and hitting them hard. He has covered every "obvious" weakness.
(I forgot to take his character sheet from last session)
- Deflect arrows, self explanatory, but if I am lucky, and hit him with a ranged attack, he will deflect it. (naturally the enemies would start attacking other targets)
- +4 AC against attack of opportunity, which means that most enemies will not hit him during this free Aao.
- Monks have high will saves and good touch AC.
- He has plenty of monk weapons that deal different types of damage. (cold iron, admantine and silver)
Despite this, I have gotten lucky with a few rolls, and he is the only that have become unconscious in the group.
Is the only option to make him face big monsters that crit high, such as ogres? I am not interested in killing off his character, just so that I can easily create encounters that challenges everyone in the group. And he is the hardest one to figure out for me, since I am an unexperienced GM.
Thanks again Paizo Community!
edit: He has requested to houserule slow fall to have the same effect as feather fall, would you say that would be too OP in your opinion?
invisible monsters still have 50% miss chance.
U cry about moms monks?
Combat reflexes and ur problem is solved with him.
I dont even know how he can be the problem in this group.
Give him feather fall. Monks need every love they can get.
U cry about moms monks?
Combat reflexes and ur problem is solved with him.
I dont even know how he can be the problem in this group.
Give him feather fall. Monks need every love they can get.
Yeah, I never seen monks as weak at all tbh.
But then again I haven't run that many games over level 5.Is it unanimous that monks are weak overall, or is it a disputed issue?
I will give him feather fall, I trust your judgment :P
Big one here is Flurry of Blows - he doesn't have it, but you say he's using Boar Style, which does nothing unless he can hit the enemy two times in the same round. While he can still use a ki point for an extra attack, that's a resource that's probably a little too precious to be wasting on mook sweeping like I think you're describing.
Monk Master of Many Styles with Vow of Truth, Fasting and Cleanliness. Feats: Panther Style, Dodge, Panther Claw, Boar Style and Mobility.
Yeah seems so, but if I have counted right, he has 11 ki points at level 4.
That +4 to AC just annoys the hell out of me :P
He even brags about his ability to beat Tarrasque at level 13.
Some weird combo with enlarge potion and certain 3.5 books he wants to use. I probably won't allow those books, and the build seemed questionable at best.
Core Monk is generally considered weak, some of the archetypes are considered to be good, MoMS is a good archetype.
Assuming he's Human he should have 5 feats (1 Human, 2 from levels, 2 Monk Bonus feats) at level 4. You say he has Panther Style, Boar Style, Panther Claw, and Deflect Arrows, since you say he has +4 to AC against AoO that would imply that he's got Dodge and Mobility. That's one too many feats.
You don't say what his stats are, but with Medium BAB he should either be having some problems hitting or his AC shouldn't be all that great due to needing multiple attributes.
By what you are saying he likely has
Deflect Arrow
Mobility
Boar Style
Panther Style
Panther Claw
Panther Parry
Combat ReflexesHe moves around purposefully trying to provoke AoO. With Mobility, Ki AC+4, Wis, Dex, AC Bonus +1, and Magic added to his AC his AC may approach 30+ at 5th level.
They swing. They Miss. He get return attacks against enemy. Then at the end he make his regular attack. If he hits twice there is bleed damage.
The answer is obvious. Stop his tactic. Grapple, Grease spell, Range Touch Spells (arrows not the only range weapon), Cramped Spaces, Multiple arrows (a fifth level opponent with rapid attack has 3 shots), opponents with high attack bonuses or high AC bonuses.
Is he that tank in the group? Force him to protect his party rather than running around everywhere. Oh No, they are going to go for the cleric if I don't stay in front of the party.
Use tactics like trip, dirty trick (blind him).
You are correct on your analysis, thanks for the suggestions.
You may not want to fight all creatures with your hands. Some could have barbs on their bodies, fire around thier bodies. Just add these features to creatures if you cant find any.
I could go on.
Don't house rule feather fall. Tell him to get a feather fall ring.
Core Monk is generally considered weak, some of the archetypes are considered to be good, MoMS is a good archetype.
Assuming he's Human he should have 5 feats (1 Human, 2 from levels, 2 Monk Bonus feats) at level 4. You say he has Panther Style, Boar Style, Panther Claw, and Deflect Arrows, since you say he has +4 to AC against AoO that would imply that he's got Dodge and Mobility. That's one too many feats.
You don't say what his stats are, but with Medium BAB he should either be having some problems hitting or his AC shouldn't be all that great due to needing multiple attributes.
I just checked, he has every feat you mentioned except deflect arrows. He must have thought it was a class ability and not a feat.
I will talk with him tomorrow about the stats and post it here.
Like I said, he seemingly has too may feats for a level 4 Monk.
You need to take a good look at his sheet and make sure there aren't other errors on there.
I should also ask if you're running the AoO correctly, each movement provokes only on AoO per enemy, most enemies are limited to one per round. So he can't just run back and forth in front of a group of enemies and provoke multiple AoO each round, unless everything he's fighting has combat reflexes.
Like I said, he seemingly has too may feats for a level 4 Monk.
You need to take a good look at his sheet and make sure there aren't other errors on there.
I should also ask if you're running the AoO correctly, each movement provokes only on AoO per enemy, most enemies are limited to one per round. So he can't just run back and forth in front of a group of enemies and provoke multiple AoO each round, unless everything he's fighting has combat reflexes.
Will do. He only runs by certain amount of enemies each round. Never around the same enemy. But are you saying that leaving a threading square can only provoke one enemy?
You provoke from every enemy that can threaten him in that squarre when he leaves it.Althought most enemies get one AOO a turn.
Everyone who threatens a square gets an AoO against you if you do something to provoke. I was just making sure individual enemies weren't taking multiple AoO against him each round to help trigger his Boar style.
I should say that one of the weaknesses of this build is that you're provoking extra AoO, which means more chances that the luck of the dice will turn against you and that you'll eat a crit or two.
Also, much like charging builds, flying enemies and difficult terrain will severely hamper his preferred tactic. Enemies with reach will not be in his melee range when they take their AoO against him. The more levels you get, the more his Medium BAB will hurt his ability to hit enemies.
What's his Wis mod? at best it's a +5 at this lv but that would kill all of his other stats it's prob only a +2 maybe +3 but I doubt it make sure he isn't getting more free hits than he's suppose too. And you said he charges to attack and only get certain enemies AoO well that does 2 things for him 1) he gets a -2 to AC for the round don't let him "forget" that and 2)he still has to go in a straight line so he is very limited in how he moves
Also as was stated high AC is going to be a problem for him throw some stuff wearing full plate at them I played a MoMS a little while ago and my problem was hitting stuff.
Don't let him get feather fall as a class skill that is a spell/2,200 GP item for a reason he shouldn't get that ability until 20th level and even then it's restricted to having a wall being near by having featherfall forever for nothing is OP.
make sure his feats are correct if he's not a human he only has 4 feats and that would mean he has to drop not only deflect arrows but a style feat or mobility as well
make him fight things that have cover or invisibility to stop him in his tracks
Also make him state when he goes into his stances that's not something that just happens you have to say I want to go into my stances and at his level it takes him two rounds (two swift actions once per round one style per round) to get into both of his stances call him on it just because it's assumed don't let him get away with it just because it's "obvious I went into my stances" he has to do them in a specific order since it takes him 2 rounds it's not ambiguous at that point
Some surprise rounds would be good that way the enemies can have an action to get to him he can't do anything and then he has to take two rounds to get into his stances that will stop him in his tracks for a little
And I think it was said above but he doesn't get any extra attacks for using Ki you have to use FoB to get that
Make his vows a problem for him
Give him some undead he's not allowed to attack them with his fists because of his vow of Cleanliness and he can only get the bonuses from his feats if he uses unarmed strikes if you seal up his hands he becomes pretty crappy since he lost his flurry of blows and was crazy enough to take vow of Cleanliness my rule of thumb is never something that keeps you from attacking something especially for that low of a bonus
Make sure he uses his dodge bonus +4 from ki correctly he only gets a handful of those a day if they have 2 or 3 hard fights in a day than he will be out by the end and there is no way he has 11 ki points he gets 3 for his vows plus 2 for his level plus his Wis mod he would need a +6 which is impossible unless he's a human using the URG he probably only has 7 or 8 at best that's only a few rounds with that +4 dodge bonus to AC
there are a few ideas I hope they help
@Chris thanks for the suggestion
@Ninja thanks :)
@Will Pratt his stats are as followed : 16,16,14,10,18,7(20 point build, +1 stat for level 4 and +1 stat for starting level 3 with 0experience points)
He usually doesn't charge, he just moves past them.
They will be facing wicked knights soon (full plate).
I will talk to him to why he shouldn't get it feather fall for free.
I checked my chat log, it seems to be correct. He does not have deflect arrows. And his archetypes lets him get style feat without prerequisite.
To summarize, he has dodge, mobility, panther style and claw, and boar style.
He is indeed a human.
I haven't been keeping track of his stances. I will do so from now on.
(edit: he can activate two stances as one swift action)
He doesn't need to use ki or flurry to retalitate. It's only a free action that gets limited by his wisdom mod. The +4 to AC from AaO is from mobility. Not Ki.
I will tell him to count the correct number of ki points he has.
He has been fighting undead, he says he has been using knuckles against undead. He has actually avoided ugly stinky monsters.
He says he has a total of 11 ki points ( he forgot to add how he got to that number)
He has 20 AC, at first he said 21, but he couldn't get the math to work.
This guy is very nice and honest, so I believe him that he has been counting ki points so far.
a quickling is a good enemy to face. they have natrual invisibility, if they move they have 20% miss chance. evasion and uncanny dodge helps as well. and if he tries to switch to his cold iron to counter his dr then make him take a knoledge check. how does he know things about quicklings.
Here is how he calculated the ki points:
Half level + wis mod. + 1/4 human, 1/5 level cleanliness + 1/6 level fasting, + 1/5 truth. The last three is min 1.
That is then 2+4+1+1+1+1 = 10
He says he will correct it to 10 now.
Hey guys!
I have this monk in my group that I am GMing, and I am not sure what weaknesses I can exploit in combat.
Why would a GM need to exploit weaknesses in combat?
You're simply representing the enemy NPCs. They might want to do so, but they don't know who or what he is and can do.
Don't go down this route. Rather present reasonable challenges to the party and roleplay the NPCs accordingly.
If he's provoking AOOs and this winds up being bad for the NPCs, perhaps elect not to take them depending upon who these NPCs are.
If they are mindless undead, continue to make them. If they are moderately smart then have a moderately smart reaction to this wrinkle away from the norm.
-James
Just because I don't have enough experience with monks, also so that the encounter utilize and challenge every player's character, as much as possible.
So far the combat encounters have been to easy for the group.
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If you're looking to challenge the player, consider adding a recurring villain to the campaign that uses firearms (they target a much lower AC). They can be deflected, as arrows, but still pose a significant threat. Take a few shots from a safe range, keeping your recurring villain behind "minions" until they're almost the last ones standing... and have them retreat to plan another attack. You could also use phase spiders to catch him flat-footed or force him into fighting defensively and readying actions.
You could also restrict movement with terrain. A swamp can significantly hinder player mobility if built properly. Toss in a few terrain-based hazards (read: traps) and your encounter DC goes up as well.
Break out a Chase deck too, for that matter (it's easy enough to make your own), and make use of optional encounter mechanics to break your players out of the comfort of normal combat/social encounters.
If you're in an undead campaign, then I might suggest a few encounters with Mummies. That mummy rot can be annoying to deal with.
The only thing you should remember, is that your goal should be to "challenge" the player - not "kill" his character; don't over do things.
If you're looking to challenge the player, consider adding a recurring villain to the campaign that uses firearms (they target a much lower AC).
The AC they target is Touch AC, which is usually much lower because it bypasses armor. That's a good strategy for challenging a Paladin or Fighter, but to a Monk it makes very little difference.
I haven't been keeping track of his stances. I will do so from now on.
(edit: he can activate two stances as one swift action)
Fuse Style (Ex): At 1st level, a master of many styles can fuse two of the styles he knows into a more perfect style. The master of many styles can have two style feat stances active at once. Starting a stance provided by a style feat is still a swift action, but when the master of many styles switches to another style feat, he can choose one style whose stance is already active to persist. He may only have two style feat stances active at a time.
the next bonus he gets for his styles is at lv8 it says nowhere in here that he can activate more than one style at a time it says when he would switch his style (a swift action) he can have one persist he gets 1 swift action per turn it takes 2 turns to get into his stances when he's at a higher lv he is able to enter more than one stance at once but not as of yet
@Baron Thanks for some creative solutions, that firearm using villain sounds interesting!
@Roberta That is what I was thinking :)
@Will Thanks for the clarification
@James That might be, but that is how I create encounters. The latest encounters have been to easy, because I just put random monsters that were the exact CR for the group, it always ended up them killing them all with ease. (Might be my fault as I gave them an extra stat point, and the 20 point build system).
I am not interested in killing the players, just to provide a good challenge. AND a good story.
And to have fun :P
Equal CR challenges are supposed to be relatively easy for the group.
His stats look alright, assuming he's got a +2 magic item boosting one of them.
I wouldn't give him free feather fall as the spell, but I would allow his slow fall class feature to work even when not near a wall, as, otherwise, it's an incredibly situational class feature that may not ever see use.
Basically, he pwns small enemies, by running past everyone and hitting them hard. He has covered every "obvious" weakness.
(I forgot to take his character sheet from last session)
Mooks with long spears. They get lots of AoOs, but without reach he cannot hit them back.
- Deflect arrows, self explanatory, but if I am lucky, and hit him with a ranged attack, he will deflect it. (naturally the enemies would start attacking other targets)
- +4 AC against attack of opportunity, which means that most enemies will not hit him during this free Aao.
- Monks have high will saves and good touch AC.
- He has plenty of monk weapons that deal different types of damage. (cold iron, admantine and silver)
He suffers the main problems all monks do: with 3/4 BAB he cannot hit high armour classes, his damage output is poor, and if foes don't actually attack this build, he's going to have a hard time doing much to any of them.
That said, 4th level is a good level for monks, before the 3/4 BAB really tells against him and other combat classes enhanced weapons haven't got too powerful yet. Let him shine because later on he'll be struggling.
...and make sure he isn't using his unarmed strike damage with those Brass Knuckles, they are light weapons and do 1d3 damage with them.
He doesn't need to use ki or flurry to retalitate....he says he has been using knuckles against undead.And that leaves open two problems. If I may...
Benefit: You can deal bludgeoning damage or slashing damage with your unarmed strikes—changing damage type is a free action. While using this style, once per round when you hit a single foe with two or more unarmed strikes, you can tear flesh. When you do, you deal 2d6 bleed damage with the attack.The emphasis is mine. The first problem is, how is he getting two or more attacks on the same opponent while triggering Panther Style on multiple opponents? This should still be leaving him open to attacks before the second blow lands, at least.
The second is that brass knuckles (which I assume is what he means) count as armed attacks, and don't trigger Boar Style at all. Nor does Panther Style, for that matter.
Crap, I might need to sit down with him and make him explain what he usually does. (we haven't played in two weeks).
He has never used boar style at the end of run-by (move then attack), at least not by my memory.Regarding unarmed strike and "stinky" creatures (undead, corps etc) he can choose to use brass knuckles, but he will lose all the stance style benefits. Which makes him quite useless against such creatures.
Cool.
^^
...and make sure he isn't using his unarmed strike damage with those Brass Knuckles, they are light weapons and do 1d3 damage with them.
Actually if you read the weapon it states the following "Monks are proficient with brass knuckles and can use their monk unarmed damage when fighting with them."
However that doesn't mean they count as unarmed strikes and he won't be getting his feats with them anyways but he will deal reg dmg
...and make sure he isn't using his unarmed strike damage with those Brass Knuckles, they are light weapons and do 1d3 damage with them.Actually if you read the weapon it states the following "Monks are proficient with brass knuckles and can use their monk unarmed damage when fighting with them."
However that doesn't mean they count as unarmed strikes and he won't be getting his feats with them anyways but he will deal reg dmg
...they just do not get the enhancement with it, as the enhancement is to the light weapon that does 1d3 damage.
Personally I'd ignore the Brass Knuckles errata, as it was a needless nerf IMO. They are still a weapon and not an unarmed strike, so the things that usually depend on using an unarmed strike, like stunning fist or Ki style wouldn't work with them.
And again, if he doesn't he can't Boar Style at all because he can't flurry - that's what he gives up for the ability to stack style feats.
That's not true, he could hit someone with his panther style free attacks by provoking an AoO and then use his standard action to deliver his Unarmed Attack, trigger Boar Style against that enemy.
I guess the monk is a touchy subject :P
He is indeed Human KainPen, I might use that suggestion when they enter the next big dungeon :D