Consider...
The monk needs two weapons to do Flurry of Blows. Two +1 weapons would cost 4600 gold pieces. The Amulet enchants all unarmed strikes for 5000 gp. So the price difference is not all that big.
It is not overpriced for dragon who gains a benefit from it affecting all of his natural attacks, but a monk can just have a similar device that affects only punches or kicks, and be just fine. The ability to affect body parts not being used does not really help the monk. That is why gloves that only affect punches would ok with me.
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The quote is one page of the following: flurry of changes to flurry of blows.
Recapping for you:
Sean K Reynolds said wrote:
I just double-checked with Jason, and my statement is correct. Flurry works like TWF. You can't pick your best weapon and use it for all of your flurry attacks.
We're really talking about two different situations. Say we have a monk15 doing a flurry of blows. His attack sequence is +13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3.
1) If all of his potential attacks are identical (for example, all he's doing are unarmed strikes and none of his unarmed strikes are enhanced by magic fang or any other effect that would give it a different attack bonus or damage value, it doesn't matter if you justify all six of those as punches, all six as headbutts, all six as kicks, or three as kicks and three as punches, or punch kick knee elbow elbow headbutt, because those attacks are identical in terms of attack and damage. That's what the "any combination" text in the flurry rule means--the difference between the attacks is just flavor and has no game effect, so you can use them in any combination because what you call it has no effect on the dice.
(Just like if you have a TWF fighter using two identical +1 short swords with identical attack and damage bonuses, it doesn't really matter for each individual attack if he's using the left shortsword or the right shortsword, declaring it doesn't affect the dice, he can roll all his attack dice at the same time and doesn't have to call them out separately.)
2) If even one of the monk's potential attack forms is not identical to the others, such as using a special monk weapon with an attack bonus or damage different than his unarmed strike, or having magic fang on one hand but not any other body part, now the order and identity of each attack matters, and you have to specify what you're attacking with and you have to abide by the TWF rules because your decisions affect the die rolls. In other words that monk15 is actually making attacks with two weapons, one with a main attack bonus of +13 and iteratives at +8/+3, and another with a main attack bonus of +13 and iteratives at +8/+3. So if you have a +5 sai in your left hand and a normal sai in your right hand, you can't say you're using the +5 sai for all six of your attacks, you're doing +13/+8/+3 with the left hand (adding the sai's +5 enhancement bonus, of course) and +13/+8/+3 with the right hand.
Jason says that in this situation, the "any combination" text means you can swap in a regular unarmed strike in place of any of those attacks (though that's not clear in the text). (Doing so affects the attack and damage rolls for that attack, of course.) So you could swap out your left-hand +8 attack for an unarmed strike such as a kick or elbow (losing the +5 enhancement bonus to that attack because you're not actually using the +5 sai to make that attack), swap out all of the right-hand sai attacks for unarmed strikes, and so on, but you're still abiding by the TWF setup in that you have a series of attacks with one weapon and a series of attacks with your other weapon.
Note that he says potential attack forms, and he repeats that time and again. Not any legal attack which may be used in two-weapon fighting; not if his primary and off-hand weapons are not identical, but any potential attack form.
A monk has nine potential attack forms for unarmed strikes alone. Headbutt, two fists, two feet, two elbows, and two knees. If even one of these is not identical in nature to the others (i.e., in enhancement bonus), then you have split up your attack routine. In another post (read the thread), he says that if your enhancements are different you cannot gain all of your attacks with the highest enhancement bonus.
I don't agree, because I believe that unarmed strikes are a single weapon, not multiple, and that the decision to use fists, feets, elbows, knees, and headbutts is merely fluff. The spell description in magic weapon supports that interpretation, but the spell description in magic fang holds the opposite (pointing out specifically that you can enchant a single fist with one casting of the spell.
Also, for flurry as two-weapon fighting to work, they have to stipulate that unarmed strikes are multiple weapons. Is it really nine? We don't know because they don't answer this question.
All we know is that you need at least TWO and no more than NINE spells to fully enchant your body as the single unarmed strike it has.
MA
Yup, AA on a GMF potion is awesome, it's what makes the AoMF "affordable" for a Vivivsectionist - you're just using it for special properties, you get your enhancement elsewhere.
For an eidolon, same kind of deal, except he gets way more natural weapons so actually using the AoMF for enhancement is a good deal on its own.
The worst part is they changed the literal meaning of "any Combination"
: "That's what the "any combination" text in the flurry rule means--the difference between the attacks is just flavor and has no game effect, so you can use them in any combination because what you call it has no effect on the dice"
So any combination is now just flavor, instead of what the word means.
Why is the fact that adventure paths are written for 15 point average character's in mind a problem?
You may have misread what I meant, or I may not have written it clearly enough.
I've seen multiple posts where a dev or a "top guy" (like James Jacob) has said something like "the adventures and encounters are written so that average characters will win". And I say that is a load of manure. The adventures and encounters are FUN, they are well thought out and well DESIGNED, but Kingmaker, by and large, is NOT survivable.
The end boss fight in Varnhold Vanishing? A carnage fest if you don't go through the dungeon in the way the game wants you to. How does the game want you to? As a player you have no idea, because there are no clues whatsoever! The first 2 installments were just as bad, you need alot of creativity and to be on the ball for more fights than should be the case.
Kingmaker is the easiest AP. The only reason you "might" have a problem is because unlike other AP's the random encounter chart might roll up something well beyond what you can handle, but the GM is supposed to tell the group this so they know when to run.
Yes. I also noticed Flurry of Blows is barely similar to TWF at all, aside from using those feats to determine the attack penalties.Yeah with the exception of the whole of Flurry mentioning;
"as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat)."
or
"as if using Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat)."
or
"as if using Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat)."
So that's three feats for free and Flurry is better than normal two-weapon fighting since you automatically get to add full strength modifier to each attack. Sounds kinda like Double Slice for free.
So that makes four feats for free. Oh and you count as having FULL BAB.
Yeah Flurry in Pathfinder is such garbage since you have to follow the Two-Weapon Fighting rules like everyone else.
(As for Zen Archer i don't want to hear it. Even with the Two-Weapon Fighting thing it still works. Specific trumps broad rules. Zen Archer is the exception not the norm.)
Paizo actually said the Zen Archer does not work as written, and they intend to errata it.
"The Amulet of Mighty Fists is not grossly overpriced!" - Of course not, everything else is just grossly underpriced!
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The thing with Amulet of Mighty Fists is that it's more expensive for a Monk, but it's much cheaper for creatures with natural attacks, like druids, animal companions, and Eidolons.
Considering an Eidolon can have up to 7 natural attacks, compare
1 Amulet of Mighty fists = 5000g
7 +1 weapons = 16100g
SKR did put up his candid thoughts about the theme of the "impoverished monk, with nothing but the clothes on his back" as a character, though. Or was he copy/pasting someone else's thoughts on how such a character deserves to suck, too?
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First thing first.
There is no reason or excuse to throw personal attacks against Paizo staff members! At all. That is rude, unnecessary and childish.
Next, the reason I decided to post here...
Note that he says potential attack forms, and he repeats that time and again. Not any legal attack which may be used in two-weapon fighting; not if his primary and off-hand weapons are not identical, but any potential attack form.
A monk has nine potential attack forms for unarmed strikes alone. Headbutt, two fists, two feet, two elbows, and two knees. If even one of these is not identical in nature to the others (i.e., in enhancement bonus), then you have split up your attack routine. In another post (read the thread), he says that if your enhancements are different you cannot gain all of your attacks with the highest enhancement bonus.
I don't agree, because I believe that unarmed strikes are a single weapon, not multiple, and that the decision to use fists, feets, elbows, knees, and headbutts is merely fluff. The spell description in magic weapon supports that interpretation, but the spell description in magic fang holds the opposite (pointing out specifically that you can enchant a single fist with one casting of the spell.
Also, for flurry as two-weapon fighting to work, they have to stipulate that unarmed strikes are multiple weapons. Is it really nine? We don't know because they don't answer this question.
All we know is that you need at least TWO and no more than NINE spells to fully enchant your body as the single unarmed strike it has.
MA
Wait, is this the current ruling or the worst case scenario? Do monk really have to enchant 9 different weapons?
This is insane! This is not even TWF anymore! It's Nine-Weapong Fighting, but, somehow, still much worse than using only 2.
To go such distance simply to justify The Holiest of Items, AoMF... Paizo may as well ban monks.
Consider...
The monk needs two weapons to do Flurry of Blows. Two +1 weapons would cost 4600 gold pieces. The Amulet enchants all unarmed strikes for 5000 gp. So the price difference is not all that big.
However, the TWFer doesn't HAVE to buy two +1 weapons, does he? He can buy one, and use a masterwork weapon in his off-hand, and still get some benefit. Is there an "amulet of one mighty fist" somewhere at half price I don't know about? Then the monk doesn't get this.
What about the Shield Master feat that means a sword & board fighter can get an effective weapon up to +5 enhancement at half price?
TWFer pays 100,000gp for two +5 weapons, and they can be good ones and he can stagger buying them.
S&B fighter pays 75,000gp for two +5 weapons and gets +5 to AC into the bargain, and he can stagger buying them.
Monk pays 125,000gp for his unarmed strike, capped at +5 too, and can't stagger it to get any early benefits.
Doesn't look reasonable to me.
You see the AoMF is reasonably priced, but for a dragon with six attacks, not for a monk with an effective two and no other means of enhancement. It pushes him further behind the curve for hitting than he already is thanks to MAD, and as his weapons are somewhat sub-standard it's hardly fair to compare the only enhancement he can get to far better ones.
However, Paizo see the problem not as the AoMF but in the monk, and that's where the fix will be applied.
The quote is one page of the following: flurry of changes to flurry of blows.
Recapping for you:
[LARGE OMITTED, BUT VERY USEFUL BLOCK OF TEXT]
You know. I'm naturally a powergamer / rules lawyer. I don't really try, I just am. Being a proverbial rules lawyer and making words say what I want them to say is, in fact, a job skill for me. I try very, very hard to curb these tendencies in games for the mutual enjoyment of all, and even channel my habits into what is some good, cohesive, community-building actions.
Then stuff like this happens. On the one hand, making that thread actually support that Monks can, in fact, Flurry using entirely one body-part is possible. Trivial, really, since the design-team's side of the discussion is working via examples which means it works like case law and there's enough ammo just in the quotes you have in the first post of that thread to do it. I mean hell, I can probably make all interpretations other than that look silly.
On the other hand... What's the point? I understand what they were doing, from a design perspective (consolidating the problem, which allows them to tackle TWF and Flurry at the same time)... but honestly? The issue is, "fixing" the Monk class won't make Paizo any money. Hell, one could even argue that keeping the Monk below-par makes them money since it makes die-hard players like me, who enjoy the challenge, keep coming back to the class. This means it'd be free, unpaid labor, which means it won't get done unless one of the Devs loves the Monk and Monk players enough to do it out of the kindness of their heart, it won't happen. Sadly, self-entitlement and an overly aggressive community made that impossible (unless there's still a Dev out there who still doesn't vocally hate us).
But I digress, I'm getting whiny, which means it's time to take a step back for a while. Sorry for any derailment.
It will make them money. People who have stopped buying products will return. Keeping customers by showing that you care about them always helps your current and future profit margin. Bad or perceived bad customer service(PR) is the fastest way to lose a customer.
PS:I think Paizo is doing a good job, but I still won't have a core book until later this year. I did not buy one before because it had more errors than I wanted to deal with for 50 dollars. Just wanted to show that fixing things brings money in.
It will make them money. People who have stopped buying products will return. Keeping customers by showing that you care about them always helps your current and future profit margin. Bad or perceived bad customer service(PR) is the fastest way to lose a customer.
^ This ^
Fixing the monk is good customer services. Many times I worked for companies that felt this was 'unpaid and therefore unproductive' work, and they all went down the pan because they lost out on repeat business. A satisfied customer tells one other prospective customer, but an unsatisfied customer tells ten.
PS:I think Paizo is doing a good job, but I still won't have a core book until later this year. I did not buy one before because it had more errors than I wanted to deal with for 50 dollars. Just wanted to show that fixing things brings money in.
I agree. I think they are doing a good job, and I think that like many they did not appreciate that there were issues with the monk that players had expected them to fix in other ways before now. The monk has, with Paizo, been a victim of circumstance. They can fix this, and I am sure that they will.
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Do not forget
Spinning Lance (Ex)
At 7th level, a dragoon may alternate attacks with the piercing head of his lance with reach, or with the butt end (treat as a club) against adjacent targets. Unlike a double weapon, the masterwork quality and magical special abilities apply to both ends of the lance, except for those weapon special abilities that apply only to edged weapons.
So other classes get to attack with TWF with just one weapon, enchanted as just one weapon, but it's broken to let the monk do this...
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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The quote is one page of the following: flurry of changes to flurry of blows.
Recapping for you:
Sean K Reynolds said wrote:
I just double-checked with Jason, and my statement is correct. Flurry works like TWF. You can't pick your best weapon and use it for all of your flurry attacks.
We're really talking about two different situations. Say we have a monk15 doing a flurry of blows. His attack sequence is +13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3.
1) If all of his potential attacks are identical (for example, all he's doing are unarmed strikes and none of his unarmed strikes are enhanced by magic fang or any other effect that would give it a different attack bonus or damage value, it doesn't matter if you justify all six of those as punches, all six as headbutts, all six as kicks, or three as kicks and three as punches, or punch kick knee elbow elbow headbutt, because those attacks are identical in terms of attack and damage. That's what the "any combination" text in the flurry rule means--the difference between the attacks is just flavor and has no game effect, so you can use them in any combination because what you call it has no effect on the dice.
(Just like if you have a TWF fighter using two identical +1 short swords with identical attack and damage bonuses, it doesn't really matter for each individual attack if he's using the left shortsword or the right shortsword, declaring it doesn't affect the dice, he can roll all his attack dice at the same time and doesn't have to call them out separately.)
2) If even one of the monk's potential attack forms is not identical to the others, such as using a special monk weapon with an attack bonus or damage different than his unarmed strike, or having magic fang on one hand but not any other body part, now the order and identity of each attack matters, and you have to specify what you're attacking with and because your decisions affect the die rolls. In other words that monk15 is actually making attacks with two weapons, one with a main attack bonus of +13 and iteratives at +8/+3, and another with a main attack bonus of +13 and iteratives at +8/+3. So if you have a +5 sai in your left hand and a normal sai in your right hand, you can't say you're using the +5 sai for all six of your attacks, you're doing +13/+8/+3 with the left hand (adding the sai's +5 enhancement bonus, of course) and +13/+8/+3 with the right hand.
Jason says that in this situation, the "any combination" text means you can swap in a regular unarmed strike in place of any of those attacks (though that's not clear in the text). (Doing so affects the attack and damage rolls for that attack, of course.) So you could swap out your left-hand +8 attack for an unarmed strike such as a kick or elbow (losing the +5 enhancement bonus to that attack because you're not actually using the +5 sai to make that attack), swap out all of the right-hand sai attacks for unarmed strikes, and so on, but you're still abiding by the TWF setup in that you have a series of attacks with one weapon and a series of attacks with your other weapon.
Note that he says potential attack forms, and he repeats that time and again. Not any legal attack which may be used in two-weapon fighting; not if his primary and off-hand weapons are not identical, but any potential attack form.
A monk has nine potential attack forms for unarmed strikes alone. Headbutt, two fists, two feet, two elbows, and two knees. If even one of these is not identical in nature to the others (i.e., in enhancement bonus), then you have split up your attack routine. In another post (read the thread), he says that if your enhancements are different you cannot gain all of your attacks with the highest enhancement bonus.
I don't agree, because I believe that unarmed strikes are a single weapon, not multiple, and that the decision to use fists, feets, elbows, knees, and headbutts is merely fluff. The spell description in magic weapon supports that interpretation, but the spell description in magic fang holds the opposite (pointing out specifically that you can enchant a single fist with one casting of the spell.
Also, for flurry as two-weapon fighting to work, they have to stipulate that unarmed strikes are multiple weapons. Is it really nine? We don't know because they don't answer this question.
All we know is that you need at least TWO and no more than NINE spells to fully enchant your body as the single unarmed strike it has.
MA
MA, I really think you're misreading this comment from Sean.
I tagged the important part. Sean is saying, if you have differently enhanced attacks, you have to abide by the TWF rules.
Which means you don't need nine castings of magic fang. You need two, you know, to Two-Weapon Fight with.
And TWF is just an extra thing to do, the main draw of the lance still being the uber charge damage.
So it's not just another class getting to do it. It's another class that has TWF as a side hobby getting to do it. Something to amuse yourself with on rounds you start already engaged in melee.
Or they charge you first.
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If you go by SKRs ruling that each limb is a seperate weapon and needs to be enchanted seperately. You need NINE greater magic fang spells in order to enhance all of a monk's potential unarmed attacks. And he said quite clearly, that if even ONE potential attack differs from the rest, you have to divide up your attacks and not make them all with your highest enhancement. So if you have two GMF spells giving a +3 bonus (one on each fist), then you have to split your unarmed strikes between one fist and either your elbows, knees, feet, or head . . . which are not enhanced.
I don't believe that is what he said.
He ruled against being able to take all your attacks with one fist, so you couldn't enchant just one fist and get the bonus to all blows. But to the best of my recollection he said that if you had enchanted both fists (or both ends of a double weapon) you could flurry, alternating blows from just those two weapons, and get your full bonus for all attacks.
Removed some posts. Post civilly, and don't make attacks against other posters.
Or they charge you first.or fighting agaisnt several enemies.
If you're not already in melee, you can't full attack and thus TWF anyway. So previous point of when you start the turn already in melee stands. :p
I guess things get interesting when you pick up Mounted Skirmisher. Pretty sure RAW you can still charge with that. Only first attack's damage gets multiplied, but w/ TWF that's still pretty nasty.
Consider...
The monk needs two weapons to do Flurry of Blows. Two +1 weapons would cost 4600 gold pieces. The Amulet enchants all unarmed strikes for 5000 gp. So the price difference is not all that big.
The fact that you think you have to pay for Masterwork on top of Magic, when the rules very clearly state that the cost of MW is included in the cost of Magic, makes me have a hard time taking any of your argument seriously.
No offense intended.
Consider...
The monk needs two weapons to do Flurry of Blows. Two +1 weapons would cost 4600 gold pieces. The Amulet enchants all unarmed strikes for 5000 gp. So the price difference is not all that big.The fact that you think you have to pay for Masterwork on top of Magic, when the rules very clearly state that the cost of MW is included in the cost of Magic, makes me have a hard time taking any of your argument seriously.
No offense intended.
It isn't, though. Masterwork costs on top. Of course once you get past +1 it's a diminishing fraction of the total cost, but for your 1st weapon, it's a significant amount.
By this token, of course, the cost of a masterwork amulet should be added, but no-one ever seems to think to include that.
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Neo2151, you should perhaps go read the magic item rules. Magic weapons can only be made from weapons that are already MW. The cost of the MW is not included in the cost of the magic enchantment.
You are confusing special materials, which does include the cost of MW in the cost of the materials. Magic Enchantments do not work that way.
If you want to be criticize to someone, you should perhaps make sure your critique is correct. Otherwise, it's hard to take your criticism seriously.
EDIT :
Dabbler, Wondrous Items (like Amulets) already have the cost of the MW base item counted in. It's only the weapon/armor enchantments that don't.
Dabbler, Wondrous Items (like Amulets) already have the cost of the MW base item counted in. It's only the weapon/armor enchantments that don't.
Oh I know that, I was just wondering out loud why the cost of materials is included for wondrous items and not for weapons. I think it harks back to 3.0 where the cost of a MW weapon was 20x the standard cost, rather than a flat +300gp. That way the cost of a particularly expensive weapon being made masterwork was a lot more than a less expensive one, and it could make a big difference.
So other classes get to attack with TWF with just one weapon, enchanted as just one weapon, but it's broken to let the monk do this...Do not forget
Spinning Lance (Ex)
At 7th level, a dragoon may alternate attacks with the piercing head of his lance with reach, or with the butt end (treat as a club) against adjacent targets. Unlike a double weapon, the masterwork quality and magical special abilities apply to both ends of the lance, except for those weapon special abilities that apply only to edged weapons.
But that isn't true, it's a single archtype that gets the ability. So yeah maybe it is broken to let an entire BASE class do it.
Consider...
The monk needs two weapons to do Flurry of Blows. Two +1 weapons would cost 4600 gold pieces. The Amulet enchants all unarmed strikes for 5000 gp. So the price difference is not all that big.
I agree. It adds to ALL the flurry.
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make a new magic item call it amulet of mighty unarmed strikes and problem solved.At 2k the AMF is fairly priced for enhancing unarmed strikes.But not for natural attacks.
It seems pretty clear to me that designers feel that not having to take the two weapon fighting tree while getting the benefits of the tree is worth an increase in the cost of an enhancement bonus. Also, considering that your magic weapons can't be disarmed is pretty powerful.
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At 2k the AMF is fairly priced for enhancing unarmed strikes.But not for natural attacks.
Quite frankly, most of us who actually play monks and run games that have monks as player characters in them don't care about natural attacks. That is why we have asked, time and again, for an item that only enhances unarmed strikes and not natural weapons.
The answer we have received has been that such an item would be meta-gaming.
And yet, in Ultimate Equipment, they come out with the brawler armor property, which cannot be placed on bracers of armor (light armor only, and bracers aren't light armor). That has a price of only a +1 special armor property, so you can get it for as cheap as 4,150 gp, plus the cost of the armor (+1 brawling). That gives a +2 untyped bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls with unarmed strike. Not with natural weapons.
A fighter wearing brawling armor, with an amulet of the mighty fists, that has selected close combat weapons for his weapon training, and has gloves of dueling, has at least a +5 bonus on attack and damage rolls over a monk with the same AoMF and level of enhancement bonus. And has spent less money to do it. That is before Strength, before even BAB.
This one item is, forgive me for saying it, a slap in the face of everyone who has championed the monk. Monks cannot have an item which only affects unarmed strikes . . . but fighters? Rogues? Rangers? Barbarians? Paladins? Bards? Clerics? Druids? They can.
MA
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Quite frankly, most of us who actually play monks and run games that have monks as player characters in them don't care about natural attacks. That is why we have asked, time and again, for an item that only enhances unarmed strikes and not natural weapons.
The answer we have received has been that such an item would be meta-gaming.
And yet, in Ultimate Equipment, they come out with the brawler armor property, which cannot be placed on bracers of armor (light armor only, and bracers aren't light armor). That has a price of only a +1 special armor property, so you can get it for as cheap as 4,150 gp, plus the cost of the armor (+1 brawling). That gives a +2 untyped bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls with unarmed strike. Not with natural weapons.
A fighter wearing brawling armor, with an amulet of the mighty fists, that has selected close combat weapons for his weapon training, and has gloves of dueling, has at least a +5 bonus on attack and damage rolls over a monk with the same AoMF and level of enhancement bonus. And has spent less money to do it. That is before Strength, before even BAB.
This one item is, forgive me for saying it, a slap in the face of everyone who has championed the monk. Monks cannot have an item which only affects unarmed strikes . . . but fighters? Rogues? Rangers? Barbarians? Paladins? Bards? Clerics? Druids? They can.
MA
Except you are forgetting that Monk gains the following benefits for free:
Full BAB progression for a Full-Round attack
Unarmed Strike
Two Weapon Fighting
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Double Slice
Stunning Fist
Doesn't need a Dex of 19
Can deal non-lethal damage without taking a penalty
Can Disarm, Trip, Sunder and Stun as part of a flurry of blows
Starts Dealing a 1d6 with fists instead of 1d3 and does progressively more damage as he levels, eventually punching with fists that a greatsword's damage dice.
So yeah, you gotta pay a little bit more to enhance your Mack truck fists than other classes have to pay, but look at all you get for FREE that other classes don't.
Also, if one of those classes loses an arm, they can no longer TWF. A monk can, since he can use any appendage as a part of his Flurry.