Firstly, I'd like to offer some insincere apologies for using this forum solely to air out pedantic interpretations of PF2e's rules. I've been gaming too long and the wrackworms in my brain keep telling me to read into things maliciously.
What does Wolf Stance do and how does it do it?
"You enter the stance of a wolf, low to the ground with your hands held like fanged teeth. You can make wolf jaw unarmed attacks. If you’re flanking a target while in Wolf Stance, your wolf jaw unarmed attacks also gain the trip trait."
Are these jaw attacks made with the jaw because they're jaw attacks, or are they made with the hands as implied in the text? Depending on the answer, being in wolf stance could (or couldn't) allow you to perform trips while armed with two weapons that don't have the trip trait or a two handed weapon without the trip trait.
If they're made with the hands, then you have to have free hands to use them, hence you can already trip, right? Does this trait give any benefit outside of adding an item bonus to the check once you get handwraps? It seems like you could more easily grab a sickle, stick a rune on it, and be able to trip outside a flank too. Come to think of it, that sounds like a fine choice even if you took wolf stance because now you've got all the physical damage types covered with one weapon and a free hand and all the sources have finesse, but I digress.
The trip trait itself stipulates that, if you roll a critical failure to trip, you can bump that up to a regular failure by dropping the weapon. How does that work for unarmed strikes in general? Do you get honorary dentures when you join the wolf clan and you can pop them out when things go pear shaped? Can you detach your hands like you ate the chop chop fruit? Can you simply not benefit from this part of the trait?
Has anybody else run up against these issues? This may be relevant to my game in the near future.
Let's break this down, shall we?
Are these jaw attacks made with the jaw because they're jaw attacks, or are they made with the hands as implied in the text?
You are not making "jaw" attacks, you are making "wolf jaw" attacks. They are totally different and entirely unrelated attack forms. A jaw attack is an attack made with the jaws. A wolf jaw attack is an unarmed attack made while in Wolf Stance.
As Wolf Stance, like all stances, does not describe in great detail its movements and attack forms (beyond what you've quoted), it can use your hands, feet, headbutts, or whatever other part of your body you the player wishes to describe, and that the GM deems acceptable.
Depending on the answer, being in wolf stance could (or couldn't) allow you to perform trips while armed with two weapons that don't have the trip trait or a two handed weapon without the trip trait.
Tripping requires a free hand or a weapon with the trip trait. Since Wolf Jaw strikes gain the trip trait when you're flanking (and only when you're flanking) you can trip targets even when your hands are full while in the stance and while flanking.
If they're made with the hands, then you have to have free hands to use them, hence you can already trip, right?
You cannot make a trip attempt unless you have a hand free, are using a weapon or attack with the Trip trait, or have an ability that specifically states otherwise.
Wolf Stance falls into all three categories, with caveats.
In short, if your hands aren't occupied, you can trip while in Wolf Stance even when not flanking (since you have a free hand). If your hands are both occupied, you can still trip while in Wolf Stance, provided you are flanking.
Does this trait give any benefit outside of adding an item bonus to the check once you get handwraps?
The trip trait let's you use the weapon's reach as well as gain a potential item bonus. This might come in handy if you find a way to add reach to your unarmed attacks (as Wolf Stance does not have reach on its own).
It seems like you could more easily grab a sickle, stick a rune on it, and be able to trip outside a flank too.
Since Wolf Stance does not prevent you from making other forms of attacks, you could absolutely do this!
Come to think of it, that sounds like a fine choice even if you took wolf stance because now you've got all the physical damage types covered with one weapon and a free hand and all the sources have finesse, but I digress.
Correct! A fine observation.
The trip trait itself stipulates that, if you roll a critical failure to trip, you can bump that up to a regular failure by dropping the weapon. How does that work for unarmed strikes in general?
I believe the intent is that it doesn't work at all.
Do you get honorary dentures when you join the wolf clan and you can pop them out when things go pear shaped? Can you detach your hands like you ate the chop chop fruit? Can you simply not benefit from this part of the trait?
LOL. That mental image just made my morning!
No. No. Yes.
Has anybody else run up against these issues? This may be relevant to my game in the near future.
You are not the first person to ask these sorts of questions. (I probably was.)
I hope that helps you on your road to adventure!
I'd like to offer some insincere apologies for using this forum solely to air out pedantic interpretations of PF2e's rules. I've been gaming too long and the wrackworms in my brain keep telling me to read into things maliciously.
I have one of those brains too. Welcome to the forums!
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Yes, you can trip with your hands anyway, regardless of flanking.
The trip trait allows you to use the item bonus.
Obviously you cannot drop your hands, this option is not available.
Using a weapon is possible, but keeping several options runed up is prohibitively expensive. Being able to deal bludgeoning (without a stance) or piercing damage should cover a lot of scenarios.
Obviously you cannot drop your hands, this option is not available.
I mean... We're in a game where you can play a skeleton that can detach and rearrange its bones/limbs. It's not that strange of a question. ;)
Obviously you cannot drop your hands, this option is not available.I mean... We're in a game where you can play a skeleton that can detach and rearrange its bones/limbs. It's not that strange of a question. ;)
Yes, but in the skeleton's case, there is a feat that specifically allows for it. It is not explicitly called out in a similar manner in Wolf Stance.
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Are these jaw attacks made with the jaw because they're jaw attacks, or are they made with the hands as implied in the text?
You are not making "jaw" attacks, you are making "wolf jaw" attacks. They are totally different and entirely unrelated attack forms. A jaw attack is an attack made with the jaws. A wolf jaw attack is an unarmed attack made while in Wolf Stance.
As Wolf Stance, like all stances, does not describe in great detail its movements and attack forms (beyond what you've quoted), it can use your hands, feet, headbutts, or whatever other part of your body you the player wishes to describe, and that the GM deems acceptable.
I see this as debatable. I'll present the opposing argument.
The way that I am reading the rules for Unarmed Attacks it is the "Fist" unarmed attack stats that are used by default when using any unspecified part of your body.
The Unarmed Attacks table (page 277) lists the statistics for an unarmed attack with a fist, though you'll usually use the same statistics for attacks made with any other parts of your body.
Many unarmed attacks reference a part of the body. Especially Ancestry unarmed attacks and Animal Instinct Barbarian unarmed attacks - those are the ones that I can think of immediately. And these fall under the next sentence in Unarmed Attacks:
Certain ancestry feats, class features, and spells give access to special, more powerful unarmed attacks.
A Strongjaw Kobold could make a bite attack while wielding a 2-handed weapon, but I expect most GMs will not allow a Clawed Catfolk to make claw attacks while their hands are full by claiming that they are doing so as a headbutt.
I conclude that the Wolf Stance feat specifies that Wolf Jaw unarmed attacks use your hands. Not your teeth. Or a headbutt. So you cannot make Wolf Jaw attacks while your hands are full.
Are these jaw attacks made with the jaw because they're jaw attacks, or are they made with the hands as implied in the text?
You are not making "jaw" attacks, you are making "wolf jaw" attacks. They are totally different and entirely unrelated attack forms. A jaw attack is an attack made with the jaws. A wolf jaw attack is an unarmed attack made while in Wolf Stance.
As Wolf Stance, like all stances, does not describe in great detail its movements and attack forms (beyond what you've quoted), it can use your hands, feet, headbutts, or whatever other part of your body you the player wishes to describe, and that the GM deems acceptable.
I see this as debatable. I'll present the opposing argument.
The way that I am reading the rules for Unarmed Attacks it is the "Fist" unarmed attack stats that are used by default when using any unspecified part of your body.
The Unarmed Attacks table (page 277) lists the statistics for an unarmed attack with a fist, though you'll usually use the same statistics for attacks made with any other parts of your body.Many unarmed attacks reference a part of the body. Especially Ancestry unarmed attacks and Animal Instinct Barbarian unarmed attacks - those are the ones that I can think of immediately. And these fall under the next sentence in Unarmed Attacks:
Certain ancestry feats, class features, and spells give access to special, more powerful unarmed attacks.A Strongjaw Kobold could make a bite attack while wielding a 2-handed weapon, but I expect most GMs will not allow a Clawed Catfolk to make claw attacks while their hands are full by claiming that they are doing so as a headbutt.
I conclude that the Wolf Stance feat specifies that Wolf Jaw unarmed attacks use your hands. Not your teeth. Or a headbutt. So you...
The Clawed Catfolk could have claws on both hands and feet, allowing it to kick to use it's claw attack. Nothing in the hertiage specifies exactly where, or how many, claws anyone has (ditto for lizardfolk and such).
Now, this has gotten even weirder with the Clawdancer archetype, because it's Talon Stance actually specifies you don't need a free hand to use those strikes. Which no other stance does.
But it's better to just go with what the Unarmed trait says, and it's very clear:
"An unarmed attack uses your body rather than a manufactured weapon. An unarmed attack isn’t a weapon, though has a weapon group and might have weapon traits. An unarmed attack can’t be Disarmed. It also doesn’t take up a hand, though a fist or other grasping appendage generally works like a free-hand weapon."
Otherwise you get into weird stuff like Mountain Stance or Ironblood Stance just being evergreen because they don't specify anything while Wolf/Tiger/Dragon do, which leads to awkward stuff like: Can Conrasu use any of these things? Can merfolk use Dragon Stance even though they don't have legs?
The answer is yes, because the prerequisites for these stances are clear and none of them are "you have legs" or "you have a free hand", etc.
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It's best generally not to specify "what parts of the body do you use for this kind of unarmed attack" in general since PCs can have all kinds of different anatomical configurations.
Like if you're someone with a literal tail, you should be able to make dragon tail attacks with that. Conrasu can still make dragon tail attacks despite likely not having feet.
But it's better to just go with what the Unarmed trait says, and it's very clear:
"An unarmed attack uses your body rather than a manufactured weapon. An unarmed attack isn’t a weapon, though has a weapon group and might have weapon traits. An unarmed attack can’t be Disarmed. It also doesn’t take up a hand, though a fist or other grasping appendage generally works like a free-hand weapon."
I'm not sure how clear this is.
But in any case, it doesn't address the problem.
You can’t attack with a free-hand weapon if you’re wielding anything in that hand or otherwise using that hand.
So if Wolf Jaw unarmed attack uses your hands and behaves like a Free-Hand weapon, then you definitely can't use Wolf Jaw attacks while your hands are full.
The problem that needs addressed is if Wolf Jaw attacks are only allowed to be made with your hands. Not your feet, or a headbutt.
It's best generally not to specify "what parts of the body do you use for this kind of unarmed attack" in general since PCs can have all kinds of different anatomical configurations.
Like if you're someone with a literal tail, you should be able to make dragon tail attacks with that. Conrasu can still make dragon tail attacks despite likely not having feet.
Yes, I would agree with that. If a character is of an ancestry with non-standard anatomy and they are allowed to take the feat that gives an unarmed attack like these, then they should be allowed to use them.
The sense here is that a wolfjaw unarmed attack is done by using two hands striking in some jaw mimicking form. Now that maybe doesnt matter but it is the imagery of the ability.
I mean could this be done with feet or a headbutt? its not restricted from happening its just strange.
The way you're supposed to visualize "monk fighting styles" is less "a video game where the animation of the specific attack plays every time you trigger it" and more "a martial arts movie where people are going to change up their strikes for tactical advantage/variety." Sometimes you're going to use your hands, sometimes you're going to use your feet for any style no matter what it says on the tin.
If you're looking for a real world analogue to "what sort of movements you would expect in wolf stance, look up the (somewhat rare) Chinese martial art of "dog boxing" which is a lot about "get your opponent on the ground."
Yes, but in the skeleton's case, there is a feat that specifically allows for it. It is not explicitly called out in a similar manner in Wolf Stance.Obviously you cannot drop your hands, this option is not available.I mean... We're in a game where you can play a skeleton that can detach and rearrange its bones/limbs. It's not that strange of a question. ;)
Why would it be called out in Wolf Stance? We're talking about Trip and the ability to drop your attacking weapon to avoid a critical failure as it applied to unarmed attacks. Nothing about that is specific to a particular stance.
Second, yeah it's feat based but how does that matter? It's was a question about the validity of asking of an unarmed attack could be dropped" and having something that says " Your detachable limbs offer flexibility" sure brings that question into play and takes the "Obviously you cannot drop your hands" off the table. It's important to think about all the ancestries: some have options voluntarily remove appendages. For instance, Lizardfolk have Shed Tail and could use Reflective Ripple Stance to make Trip attacks with their tail so asking if it's possible to drop a limb is a reasonable question: it's not limited to human-like physiologies [though even then, prostheses are a thing in the game too]. None of the options provide a RAW way to do it though but I can see some DM's allowing it.
Obviously you cannot drop your hands, this option is not available.
I was thinking maybe there had been some ruling on this that I hadn't been able to find, or at least a common alternative to Captain Buggy stance. Obviously you can't drop your hands (unless you can) but maybe there was something I was missing.
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Let's break this down, shall we?
A dork after my own heart. Thanks for the excellent breakdown. I've actually been on Paizoboardia for a long long time under a few different names, but I don't post much and I don't think you and I have ever interacted (though we probably did and I just forgot because my memory is terrible).
To describe it with a bit of inside baseball, I was present for the birth of the First Great "Can you trip a snake?" Argument.
Kinda nice to post now. Feels right. Feels like home.
A Strongjaw Kobold could make a bite attack while wielding a 2-handed weapon, but I expect most GMs will not allow a Clawed Catfolk to make claw attacks while their hands are full by claiming that they are doing so as a headbutt.
I've always allowed feet to have claws.
So if Wolf Jaw unarmed attack uses your hands and behaves like a Free-Hand weapon, then you definitely can't use Wolf Jaw attacks while your hands are full.
None of the attack forms being discussed have the Free-Hand trait, so I fail to see why you think it the least bit relevant.
So if Wolf Jaw unarmed attack uses your hands and behaves like a Free-Hand weapon, then you definitely can't use Wolf Jaw attacks while your hands are full.None of the attack forms being discussed have the Free-Hand trait, so I fail to see why you think it the least bit relevant.
Getting into dangerous territory here: the difference between "is" and "behaves like" is a cursed tarn carved in time immemorial by the glaciations of the primeval rules lawyers.
I do think there is a sticking point that not all unarmed attacks are "free body." When an unarmed attack is defined as a jaws bite, it is absolutely fair / correct to restrict that attack to only being possible when a bite is possible.
The same goes for unarmed attacks that define themselves into locations, like hands. The new grafted claws state they are placed on either hands or feet. If a PC has the hand claws, I would argue it's correct to require a hand to be available (same as a free-hand gauntlet) to make such a Strike, even if it's still in the general category of unarmed.
If I recall correctly, the way that non-typical body types work is that they declare the creature/PC: ~"uses ____ as if they had two hands". That approach is important, as it does not allow for shenanigans. Even if a PC uses a trio of tentacles in place of an arm/hand, they still need that substitute to be available.
It is also correct that many unarmed attacks are "body-part agnostic" and do not define a required limb.
With that norm established, we've got to inspect Wolf Stance and apply those rules to it as well.
You enter the stance of a wolf, low to the ground with your hands held like fanged teeth. You can make wolf jaw unarmed attacks. These deal 1d8 piercing damage; are in the brawling group; and have the agile, backstabber, finesse, nonlethal, and unarmed traits.
If you’re flanking a target while in Wolf Stance, your wolf jaw unarmed attacks also gain the trip trait.
Opposite of what I remembered, the text about the hands is only a description of what the stance looks like, and there is 0 limb restriction placed upon the wolf jaw attacks themselves. There's no text like "... and use your hands to make wolf jaw..."
In this case, I would say a hand-occupied / arm-unavailable PC can still make those wolf jaw strikes.