How do you handle shopping?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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*maybe


wraithstrike wrote:
3.5 Loyalist wrote:

In my low magic games, there was a high magic fellow, he loved all the items, filling the slots, and once claimed a magic item "was essential to his character concept". Funny stuff, but when he was dumped into a low magic frontier game, set in Isger, with no magic item shops. He eventually adapted and started doing more rp. I could sense some inner conflict though, because he still wanted to hoard items, but there was so much to do, and they were on the clock, that he was kept busy.

Then he tried to kill the rest of the party, his coup failed.

For magic items?

I hope you booted him from the table.

He was gathering whatever was worth something in the region, taking control of a beleaguered garrison and trying to push for mob justice so as to increase his popularity. It led to a great conflict, where it was the party and some npcs just trying to survive in a harsh land, versus the commander and his large number of soldiers. What a battle.

Good won that day, but it was close. So many soldiers died, everyone bled on the Isgerian snow. The commander was crit, K.O, robbed but spared, then he later got himself deliberately killed rushing at bandits. Some people can't handle a loss, I was quite happy to run two parties in the one setting, a half kingmaker as it were. After that, mr obsess over loot and power left. So no need to kick him out.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Skylancer4 wrote:


Magic items aren't supposed to be inordinately hard to obtain.

They're also not supposed to be orderable in Sears Roebuck catalog either. As always the GM has to find her own balance in such things.


I always like the assumption, from the fill my slot questors, that their characters know exactly what they are looking for, what they need. Especially if they have no arcana.

It is meta-gaming-shopping. Fortunately with a new crew, or a cool crew as mentioned above, you don't have to worry about this.

I've heard of ways to rationalise this, that all adventurers would do a crash course in adventuring necessities (what they will require as they level) and despite their backgrounds, they will know of what they want to find. Har har.


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I blame MMO's for the gotta fill every slot with a +5 item mentality. I tend to be a generous GM up to a point. Some items, wands and weapons I assume they are always in stock. (Example - Wand cure light wounds, +1,+2 items) But anything above +3 or equivalent I make sure that they earn it or are very rare. I don't believe in the wealth by level rules and adjust all encounters according to my players abilities. If players think that they can get anything they want eventually, then it cheapens one of the most important aspect's of the game. The excitement of finding a really cool item.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

3.5 Loyalist wrote:
After that, mr obsess over loot and power left. So no need to kick him out.

Why did you invite someone to play in your game if you knew his playstyle was radically opposed to your own?

If I know someone won't enjoy the way I run my game, I direct them to other games being run in town that might be more to their liking. I don't drag them along through my campaign until they inevitably get bored, attempt to sabotage the game, and walk away, nor do I invent condescending nicknames for them based on their playstyle.


Arslanxelan wrote:
I blame MMO's for the gotta fill every slot with a +5 item mentality. I tend to be a generous GM up to a point. Some items, wands and weapons I assume they are always in stock. (Example - Wand cure light wounds, +1,+2 items) But anything above +3 or equivalent I make sure that they earn it or are very rare. I don't believe in the wealth by level rules and adjust all encounters according to my players abilities. If players think that they can get anything they want eventually, then it cheapens one of the most important aspect's of the game. The excitement of finding a really cool item.

Yes, MMOs, collect it all and steadily upgrade games where that is very important. That is an influence right there!

D&d is not a mummorpoger.


Epic Meepo wrote:
3.5 Loyalist wrote:
After that, mr obsess over loot and power left. So no need to kick him out.

Why did you invite someone to play in your game if you knew his playstyle was radically opposed to your own?

If I know someone won't enjoy the way I run my game, I direct them to other games being run in town that might be more to their liking. I don't drag them along through my campaign until they inevitably get bored, attempt to sabotage the game, and walk away, nor do I invent condescending nicknames for them based on their playstyle.

I give players a chance to try something new. People can also change, or they can repeat similar behaviour over and over. There was no draggin or grappling. This was truly a game he had not played before and his behaviour did change in a sense. He went to the dark side when he couldn't be selfish adventurer that does some good indirectly, but only cares about magic items (his usual char).

As for condescending names, there is that, and there is also the truth behind what they play and how they play. The nicknames are just a shortened descriptor.


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I'm with the magic should be rarer and, well... magical, crowd. I don't want magic taking the place of technology in my game and becoming common and unremarkable. I don't think a character should have to load up on magic to be viable. It's one of the aspects of 3.x that makes me look fondly back on older editions (although overall I really like 3.x). As a result I've made magic items rarer, more difficult to craft and generally, as a result, more desirable / valuable. The primary means of obtaining items is adventure. It works because I run a sandbox game. I suspect that a lot of APs go smoother with PCs who are loaded up with magic. Adventuring in my game doesn't require all the goodies just to make it through and survive. In the end, it's a different style of play and to each their own...


3.5 Loyalist wrote:

I always like the assumption, from the fill my slot questors, that their characters know exactly what they are looking for, what they need. Especially if they have no arcana.

It is meta-gaming-shopping. Fortunately with a new crew, or a cool crew as mentioned above, you don't have to worry about this.

I've heard of ways to rationalise this, that all adventurers would do a crash course in adventuring necessities (what they will require as they level) and despite their backgrounds, they will know of what they want to find. Har har.

It is how most groups play so you can't really fault them for it.

My first GM made us make gather information checks in 3.5 to see if could find someone that had the item. Your idea, and his both have merit, but the player should be warned of such things up front.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

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3.5 Loyalist wrote:
[A well-reasoned response.]

Fair.


Ah but wraith, it is only how some groups run after they have played a bit, got into optimisation and learned about magic items in depth, crafting and the purchasing rules over multiple characters. A single char without a truly high arcana focusing on magic manufacture, isn't going to know all that the player knows. It is the old, don't play yourself, play your character, player and pc knowledge divide.

So, say you are playing a level 1 rogue, a pick-pocket and sneaky chap from a poor background like many rogues. You get a level, and then the player says the character goes looking for gloves of dex. Wait a minute, when did that char learn about gloves of dex? Not so long ago it was a thief living on the streets, now it has some wealth, it wants to buy a magic item it has never heard about. Player says, ah he heard about that off the guild thieves he works with. Dm says, hold on a sec, I never said that, these thieves do not talk about magic items to buy, they are interested in heists, robberies and muggings. Magic items are beyond their means.

It can get a bit silly is what I am saying, and many approach it from the outset of my char wants this, or he will have this at this level. Whoa buddy, try playing your character first and earning them, and try to play the accounting chronicles a bit less. :)

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
3.5 Loyalist wrote:

Ah but wraith, it is only how some groups run after they have played a bit, got into optimisation and learned about magic items in depth, crafting and the purchasing rules over multiple characters. A single char without a truly high arcana focusing on magic manufacture, isn't going to know all that the player knows. It is the old, don't play yourself, play your character, player and pc knowledge divide.

So, say you are playing a level 1 rogue, a pick-pocket and sneaky chap from a poor background like many rogues. You get a level, and then the player says the character goes looking for gloves of dex. Wait a minute, when did that char learn about gloves of dex? Not so long ago it was a thief living on the streets, now it has some wealth, it wants to buy a magic item it has never heard about. Player says, ah he heard about that off the guild thieves he works with. Dm says, hold on a sec, I never said that, these thieves do not talk about magic items to buy, they are interested in heists, robberies and muggings. Magic items are beyond their means.

It can get a bit silly is what I am saying, and many approach it from the outset of my char wants this, or he will have this at this level. Whoa buddy, try playing your character first and earning them, and try to play the accounting chronicles a bit less. :)

The Ars Magica forum is ----> that way.


If a player wants to claim, ah, my char learned about magic items ages ago, even though they are low level they did a training course on what their class should have at levels 2-20, I would want to check their knowledge: arcana and appraise skills. If they don't have it, their char has no idea, regardless of what the player knows. Even if they do have the skills, there might be rolls involved, first to know of it, next to know its cost.


There are RAW rules for all sorts of knowledge skills. There are rules for identifying found magic items. There are rules for what value of items can be found in various settlements.
There are no rules for what items a character might know about. None.

So what are the DCs? What skills cover it? You've suggested arcana and appraise(?) Can a cleric with religion and Crafting feats and skills make items he hasn't come across or does he need arcana? Does the wizard need appraise?

Further, how specific does this have to be? If a thief doesn't know about gloves of dex, can he just go looking for some kind of magic to increase his dex instead? (Which is usually a belt, right?) Is it the concept that basic physical abilities can be increased by magic items that's so hard to grasp? Or what the specific item is and how much it's worth? If DCs go up with item cost, which might seem reasonable, does it really make sense that the character might have learned enough to know that there is a belt of dexterity+2 and maybe even have one, but not be able to come up with the idea that there may be a more powerful version without investing more points in the skill?


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I don't use the 'xdx items' parts. I don't think it's necessary and as a GM it means I have to do bookkeeping on what is a very miniscule part of the game.

I use a standard 75% availability of any item up to the Base Value in most cities, and modify that off the top of my head depending on the size of the community and the current socio-economic factors of the region/time-of-year.


Gorbacz wrote:
So, say you are playing a level 1 rogue, a pick-pocket and sneaky chap from a poor background like many rogues. You get a level, and then the player says the character goes looking for gloves of dex. Wait a minute, when did that char learn about gloves of dex? Not so long ago it was a thief living on the streets, now it has some wealth, it wants to buy a magic item it has never heard about.

Your example is a good one in the sense that it talks to what the character may have seen themselves, but from a rp perspective I think its fair to say that this same thief would be aware of the world around him.....aware enough to know that there are magic items out there that can make you stronger/smarter/stealthier etc. And now that they have some $ when before they had none they want to go out and get themselves some new toys to help their new career. So maybe not asking for gloves of dex as a specific name but shopping for something you think should exist.

That thief can ask the question "Im a nimble guy, what do you have to make me even more nimble?". I am aware of lots of tech gadgets out there, but even in the real world I often find myself in Best Buy or whatever saying "hey, do you have a thigamagig that does X?".


I find myself really adjusting items and availability by the specialisations of the area. On a logging frontier plagued by rocs, far from any large cities, no magic item shops (certainly can get axes, spirits and fine hafted weapons made though). In the cities of a theocracy, getting healing, holy and cleric items won't be that much of a problem. In an area of freeholders suspicious of non agricultural commerce, can't buy magic items of power, but some traders of the towns (not the villages) might help you buy something unusual.

thejeff, when that character goes looking for a specific magic item, one of the big six, an essential slot filler, that character is ceasing to be an active character engaging in rp and adventure, and merely being a stat booster through often meta-gaming actions.

thejeff, to answer your question on magic and what is known, arcana covers (to name but a few) "magic traditions" and "arcane symbols" while religion covers "holy symbols". It seems your crafting cleric would need some arcana to know magic items more in depth. Religion doesn't cover all of what you want, but religions makes a cleric with religious knowledge, not magic item encyclopedic knowledge.

Now reading along from core's skills, spellcraft is very relevant, covers crafting a magic item, identifying properties of a magic item. This best covers magic item knowledge, with arcana being a close second, but religion covering religious symbols that are magic items and important to the faith.

If chars are lacking in these, their magic item knowledge should be played as low to non-existent. Or it is meta-gaming and substituting player knowledge to compensate and ensure the char uses the opportunities and wealth they have to get more and better stuff to make them better mechanically.

Well a short story. Once a party a char of mine was in, finished a dungeon. We headed back to town, and the rest of them stocked up and put their wealth into magic items which they got via shopping. My char didn't, he didn't care for such things, know much about them or want them. The rogue spent his wealth on sins and delight, because that is who he was. The rest hit the stores and filled the slots as best as they could, trying to get the most for their buck. Their obsession with raising modifiers through magic led to their individuality disappearing. They were all just shopping bots acting the same, they had to increase the numbers.

When we go shopping in game I ask that you ask yourself (??) a few questions. Would my char know what magic items they are looking for? Would they direct most of their wealth in this direction and not to other sources? Could I be doing more interesting things with my gaming time than shopping?


Deylinarr wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
So, say you are playing a level 1 rogue, a pick-pocket and sneaky chap from a poor background like many rogues. You get a level, and then the player says the character goes looking for gloves of dex. Wait a minute, when did that char learn about gloves of dex? Not so long ago it was a thief living on the streets, now it has some wealth, it wants to buy a magic item it has never heard about.

Your example is a good one in the sense that it talks to what the character may have seen themselves, but from a rp perspective I think its fair to say that this same thief would be aware of the world around him.....aware enough to know that there are magic items out there that can make you stronger/smarter/stealthier etc. And now that they have some $ when before they had none they want to go out and get themselves some new toys to help their new career. So maybe not asking for gloves of dex as a specific name but shopping for something you think should exist.

That thief can ask the question "Im a nimble guy, what do you have to make me even more nimble?". I am aware of lots of tech gadgets out there, but even in the real world I often find myself in Best Buy or whatever saying "hey, do you have a thigamagig that does X?".

That makes a lot of sense. Thief wants better tools, goes looking for tools but without thinking of it like filling all the slots, and get me the gloves of dex, then another ring, and some boots, lol.


You're being very vague.
I'm trying to think about how to implement this and what problems would arise. I'm curious how you'd set DCs for things and whether that would make any sense, like in my example of not being able to conceive of a +4 belt of dex, despite having a +2 version, because your spellcraft/arcana/whatever isn't high enough yet. You're responding with vague handwavy talk about characters lacking those skills having low to non-existent knowledge. How many points lets you know about what? Does the high-level fighter with no relevant skill points not understand that swords can be enchanted to be better than his dad's trusty greatsword?

More generally, 3.x is designed to be heavily reliant on magic items. You can call it meta-gaming if you want, but there are rules for WBL and similar concepts for a reason. If one character wants to for roleplaying reasons spend his share on "sins and delights", he's going to be significantly weaker than his companions who are more practical. That's the way the game works. I'm not all that fond of it. I actually prefer games where items don't play so much of a role or are more personalized and tied to the character than they tend to be in D&D.
And personally, I tend to skim over both the shopping and the "sins and delights". I don't find either very interesting to roleplay, so don't spend very much time on them.
Using OOC knowledge to ask about specific items, rather than roleplaying out long conversations where the merchant describes each thing he has in IC terms and I try to figure out what that actually corresponds to or I ask vaguely for "Something that can make me stronger", just speeds up the process.
In reality, what you'd get with characters who didn't know any details about what magic was available wouldn't be characters who didn't look for items at all, but ones who would think up things they'd like to have and ask for them even though they're not available. You'd have to have some wizard or merchant explain in IC terms to each new character all the various concepts, like why he can't get both a belt and gloves of strength. Remember, a lot of these items aren't hard concepts. "Magic that makes me stronger", "Magic that protects me from magic", "Magic weapons", "Magic armor", etc., etc.

The idea that a character without technical knowledge of how magic works, wouldn't get the idea that magic items can do all sorts of useful things that might keep him alive and that there are merchants who sell some of these things is absurd. Some might prefer to drink all their money away anyways, but, especially as the treasures get richer, that becomes hard to do.


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3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Deylinarr wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
So, say you are playing a level 1 rogue, a pick-pocket and sneaky chap from a poor background like many rogues. You get a level, and then the player says the character goes looking for gloves of dex. Wait a minute, when did that char learn about gloves of dex? Not so long ago it was a thief living on the streets, now it has some wealth, it wants to buy a magic item it has never heard about.

Your example is a good one in the sense that it talks to what the character may have seen themselves, but from a rp perspective I think its fair to say that this same thief would be aware of the world around him.....aware enough to know that there are magic items out there that can make you stronger/smarter/stealthier etc. And now that they have some $ when before they had none they want to go out and get themselves some new toys to help their new career. So maybe not asking for gloves of dex as a specific name but shopping for something you think should exist.

That thief can ask the question "Im a nimble guy, what do you have to make me even more nimble?". I am aware of lots of tech gadgets out there, but even in the real world I often find myself in Best Buy or whatever saying "hey, do you have a thigamagig that does X?".

That makes a lot of sense. Thief wants better tools, goes looking for tools but without thinking of it like filling all the slots, and get me the gloves of dex, then another ring, and some boots, lol.

I think that sums it up better than I did. In far less words.

I'd just add that it's abstraction: The character's off browsing, looking for tools to do his job better. The player abstracts that process by asking about the things he knows he wants.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Unless the player has his character ask in-character for a specific item, I don't sweat it.


I love seeing people wanting magic to be rare and special in a game where every servant of a church above altar-boy status can create 2 (or more) gallons of water from nothing or close debilitating wounds in a handful of seconds
(( In other words, 1st level cleric using Create Water or Cure Light Wounds ))

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Not everyone in the church has to have cleric levels.

I need to make sure priests in my games have expert levels as often as cleric levels, just to keep my players from getting the wrong idea.


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Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:


I love seeing people wanting magic to be rare and special in a game where every servant of a church above altar-boy status can create 2 (or more) gallons of water from nothing or close debilitating wounds in a handful of seconds
(( In other words, 1st level cleric using Create Water or Cure Light Wounds ))

My main organized Church includes Clerics, Adepts, Inquisitors, Paladins, Warriors, Experts, and Commoners. The typical ordained priest is an Adept. Clerics tend to be specific orders along with Inquisitors and Paladins. The Church maintains it's own miltary of Church soldiers (Warriors, led by Clerics). Lay employees of the Church include various Experts and Commoners doing everything that needs doing from smithing to labor to helping out at services. You can find the odd Bard as a Deacon running choirs, etc. If all your Church employs are Clerics, or even just all casters (Adepts, Clerics, Inquisitors), you have a pretty limited organization... do Clerics muck out the stables, repair the buildings, and the thousand other mundane tasks that any temple / church requires? Just how many casting clergy do you have per thousand population? It should't be too common. There, but still a miracle if you will. And spells are one thing, magic items should be rarer than the odd spell. It's one thing to cast a spell, it's more resource intensive to make magical items. Ymmv, of course.

Grand Lodge

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Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:
I love seeing people wanting magic to be rare and special in a game...

The view of magic being rare and special typically comes in tandem with spellcaster's (outside of the PC's) being rare as well. This was easier to accomplish in editions prior to 3rd, where every other class did not have some form of spell casting ability...

Don't get me wrong, I love 3.x/Pathfinder, but my favorite remains 2nd edition...


Fight the power elf, we can take games back however magic reliant a system supposedly is.

Yesterday I ran a game, mostly a combat game. One monster had DR, and the low magic party found a way around it, via maneuvers and good teamwork.

Not all slots need to be filled, and you don't need the best of the best magic items, except in some games emphasising high end crunch. I give my items flavour, some power and use, but pushing numbers higher and higher, meh, that is what levels are for. So far, in multiple low magic games, balancing the foes to the party isn't hard. This without magic item shopping (potions and knick-knacks like a fairy bread summoning pouch exempted of course).


3.5 Loyalist wrote:

Ah but wraith, it is only how some groups run after they have played a bit, got into optimisation and learned about magic items in depth, crafting and the purchasing rules over multiple characters. A single char without a truly high arcana focusing on magic manufacture, isn't going to know all that the player knows. It is the old, don't play yourself, play your character, player and pc knowledge divide.

So, say you are playing a level 1 rogue, a pick-pocket and sneaky chap from a poor background like many rogues. You get a level, and then the player says the character goes looking for gloves of dex. Wait a minute, when did that char learn about gloves of dex? Not so long ago it was a thief living on the streets, now it has some wealth, it wants to buy a magic item it has never heard about. Player says, ah he heard about that off the guild thieves he works with. Dm says, hold on a sec, I never said that, these thieves do not talk about magic items to buy, they are interested in heists, robberies and muggings. Magic items are beyond their means.

It can get a bit silly is what I am saying, and many approach it from the outset of my char wants this, or he will have this at this level. Whoa buddy, try playing your character first and earning them, and try to play the accounting chronicles a bit less. :)

Many handwave it because they don't want to deal with shopping aspect. So instead of making it an in-game activity, they let the players have the items since is not going to break the game*. It is more along the lines of keeping things simple. Now if the items were taking over the game for those GM's then I am sure they would find a way to make acquisition more difficult.

*If the items do upset the balance of a GM's game then I can see why making them more difficult to obtain would happen.

edit:Personally I prefer concrete rules on such things, and the rules don't provide any. Myself and others don't feel the need or desire to detail what magic items may or may not be known to a player. If I was a player in such a game I would just ask someone who knew about such things, and pay them for their knowledge. I would find it hard to believe that just because my character does not know, that nobody knows. :)


You may have found a way to kill the monster, but you still needed magic to bypass that DR unless it was nonmagical in nature, in which case only a knowledge check was needed.


Not so. The DR could be beaten by tripping, grappling and then a monk using power attack and flurry. Another reason I love 3.5, maneuvers being able to be used even on strong foes (no CMD over 30) for the benefit of the party as a whole.

Magic was not the answer, the golem was immune to magic.


By beating the DR I was talking about ignoring it the way a magic weapon does against DR magic, not doing enough damage to overcome it like power attack would allow. What you are talking about is using teamwork to defeat a monster with DR. That is not the same as bypassing DR.


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I've always thought that pathfinder has made it to easy for players to buy magic items
And in doing so has to my way of thinking reduced the impact that a new magic item has in the game
But each to there own


It was just as easy in 3.5., IIRC.

I will admit that I don't tend to bother with things that don't upset the game mechanically. I also hate shopping* interfering with adventuring time so me doing a quest to make you look for item X to craft Y, or to anything else related to the acquisition of a magic item is not going to happen.

*This also includes crafting.

Many times I ask players to send me an email if they see something they want in between sessions, just so that when we meet again it is already taken care of.

In short magic item acquisition is not something I care about. It seems that many others I have met feel the same way. That is why if a GM does care about such things I feel like it is only fair to warn the player up front. You may think it is silly, but obviously if other GM's just handwave it, and considering the amount of posts on these boards it seems to be pretty popular. Just as if you have a house rule you like to use you should warn the player about any common known deviations from standard styles of play.

3.5 loyalist said "A single char without a truly high arcana focusing on magic manufacture, isn't going to know all that the player knows." I am sure if it were that common someone would have came up with concrete rules for it. 3.5 loyalist could not even say how it is done, other than to be vague. There is nothing with on the spot rulings, but I don't think one should say such a thing is as common as he says it is when it is not. Not only that but optimization has nothing to do with throwing such rules away. You can optimize and still use those rules if you were using them before. In case you missed it he also said "Ah but wraith, it is only how some groups run after they have played a bit, got into optimisation and learned about magic items in depth, crafting and the purchasing rules over multiple characters."
That is just like saying everyone does it the way I do, and then they change it later on, but that can't be the norm, or I would have met posters and players that do it that way. I would have at least met enough that I can't count them on one hand.

The truth is a single character in his game won't know it, and any GM that makes you use gather info checks, knowledge(arcana), and so on should give you a heads up.

With that aside I will get back to my main point:
I(as a player**) am not asking you to give me whatever I want. I am asking you to inform me about things I would need to know due to how you(any GM) runs the game. I think that is reasonable.

**I normally GM.

Example: I like to use monsters that grapple people, and poison will come up. I make sure players know this, and I advise them to not dump constitution since it has traditionally helped people live.* Now if the player decides to ignore my advice that is on him/her. I have done my part.

*Players have come to within 1 or 2 hp of death, and I don't do a lot of dice fudging.


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I find it funny that some people don't like certain elements in a fantasy game cause it feels too modern or sci-fi. Yet they expect a magic item walmart within a days ride. At least Golarion has Absalon and Katapesh witch allows you to accommodate these players up to a point. But in a game set in Ravenloft of Darksun you get what you get.


Arslanxelan wrote:
I find it funny that some people don't like certain elements in a fantasy game cause it feels too modern or sci-fi. Yet they expect a magic item walmart within a days ride. At least Golarion has Absalon and Katapesh witch allows you to accommodate these players up to a point. But in a game set in Ravenloft of Darksun you get what you get.

I think they don't want certain modern elements depending on their personal taste. I also don't think they expect for every town to have every item. Actually they should not even expect for a metropolis to have every item.

With that aside I do think the players would not expect such things in Darksun*. I like it when shopping does take up gametime as a player. I hate shopping in real life also, so that may be why, but if I play in Darksun, which I have before, I know things are going to be hard, and I should be happy to get whatever I can find. I have yet to play a Ravenloft game, but I would like to try it one day. :)

*This assumes they have had a proper introduction, and they were actually paying attention.


Skylancer4 wrote:
maybe tack on a 10% fee for crafting it on demand

Strikes me as completely illogical. Why would you require MORE money for an insured sale over just making something that MIGHT sell?

Have them put down a deposit is valid.

Honestly, just let the PCs spend their WBL how they want. Not doing so punishes the weaker classes and barely effects the stronger ones.

3.5/PF is built as very high magic and is absolutely terrible as a low magic system and should NEVER, EVER be used for such a game without major house rules.


deuxhero wrote:
Skylancer4 wrote:
maybe tack on a 10% fee for crafting it on demand

Strikes me as completely illogical. Why would you require MORE money for an insured sale over just making something that MIGHT sell?

Have them put down a deposit is valid.

Honestly, just let the PCs spend their WBL how they want. Not doing so punishes the weaker classes and barely effects the stronger ones.

3.5/PF is built as very high magic and is absolutely terrible as a low magic system and should NEVER, EVER be used for such a game without major house rules.

If you read the posts completely and not take one sentence out of context, you'll see that I don't agree with restricting players choices in terms of 'shopping' at all. That quote is in regards to charging a little more instead of denying the option at all. I (as well as most others I know) would rather pay a bit more to get what we want, instead of not having a choice.


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deuxhero wrote:


Skylancer4 wrote:


maybe tack on a 10% fee for crafting it on demand

Strikes me as completely illogical. Why would you require MORE money for an insured sale over just making something that MIGHT sell?

Have them put down a deposit is valid.

Honestly, just let the PCs spend their WBL how they want. Not doing so punishes the weaker classes and barely effects the stronger ones.

3.5/PF is built as very high magic and is absolutely terrible as a low magic system and should NEVER, EVER be used for such a game without major house rules.

My game is "low magic" compared to the norm in 3.x (I'd call it "medium" for availability -- less than standard PF/3.5, more than Original D&D etc.). My players have had no problem with it. I think the problem lies with the expectations of many players and the way APs are built. I gather they are built around 4 players with WBL for items. If I'm wrong about the expectations of APs, let me know. What I think is based only on what I have read on the boards here about APs. I don't use them. The work necessary to have a low magic game is minimal -- if you're running your own adventures. Bump up the cost / difficulty of crafting magic, keep it fairly rare in treasure and consider that in your encounters (low or high magic I'ver never felt CR was a good measure of encounter difficulty and I've heard a lot of complaints about it here). If you're using APs it might require more work, I don't really know. Then too, my version of "minimal adjustments / work" in house ruling might not match others' expectations...

The mechanics of 3.5 are very robust and adaptable. Imo you can pretty much run any style of game you want with some adjustments.


I agree that it is robust, I disagree that it can handle any style. Anime type, super hero and simulationist games fare badly with the system. Can it be done? Sure, will it be pretty or smooth? Not a chance.

Having to ignore or break basic rules of the game tends to cause a cascade effect, breaking more rules to make more things possible. Eventually you aren't playing the "game" any more.


Skylancer4 wrote:


I agree that it is robust, I disagree that it can handle any style. Anime type, super hero and simulationist games fare badly with the system. Can it be done? Sure, will it be pretty or smooth? Not a chance.

It took some work with Anime, but the old Guardians of Order d20 BESM seemed to work fine. The Anime d20 SRD still lurks online for it. Super hero's been done as well of course. It requires changes. When I said "any style" I should have clarified that I meant typical FRPG in terms of simple adaptation. The more difference, the more work, but it can be done. I'd say the same for any system. I think the d20 / OGL is more adaptable than most.

Grand Lodge

Skylancer4 wrote:
Having to ignore or break basic rules of the game tends to cause a cascade effect, breaking more rules to make more things possible. Eventually you aren't playing the "game" any more.

Yeah I, like R_Chance, run a game that comes nowhere near the level of the expected availability of magical items and such. And I must say, it really doesn't require much at all in the way of modifications to the RAW.

But this style of play does have the expectation that characters start out like Bruce Wayne (i.e. your "average joe") and through adventuring, become like Batman, as opposed to the characters starting out already like Batman, and then go on to become like Superman (all figuratively speaking of course)...

Thus far, I have seen no cascading effects (and I assure you, we ARE playing the "game").

I think that the problem many have with a low magic game is that the characters in such a game are not "heroes" 100% of the time; that the characters in such a game are quite often fairly fragile (such as not always having full hit points).

But that's just my opinion. Perhaps I'm way off the mark here, I don't know, but that's just how it seems from reading many of the posts on these boards over the years. And that's fine, because I know that my style of play is not for everyone...


Arslanxelan wrote:
I find it funny that some people don't like certain elements in a fantasy game cause it feels too modern or sci-fi. Yet they expect a magic item walmart within a days ride. At least Golarion has Absalon and Katapesh witch allows you to accommodate these players up to a point. But in a game set in Ravenloft of Darksun you get what you get.

Yes! There are some really backwards and under threat areas in Golarion, those are my favourite places, and you won't find pretty little magic item shops waiting for adventurers. Where survival is a daily struggle, a shop couldn't keep its items, people would steal them to survive. I really like the backwoods rural settings, then there isn't magic shopping.


deuxhero wrote:
Skylancer4 wrote:
maybe tack on a 10% fee for crafting it on demand

Strikes me as completely illogical. Why would you require MORE money for an insured sale over just making something that MIGHT sell?

Have them put down a deposit is valid.

Honestly, just let the PCs spend their WBL how they want. Not doing so punishes the weaker classes and barely effects the stronger ones.

3.5/PF is built as very high magic and is absolutely terrible as a low magic system and should NEVER, EVER be used for such a game without major house rules.

Nope, 3.5/pathfinder is great fun as a low magic game/system. Give it a try, it is really cool. Have to rely on teamwork a lot more, and not just your items to save you.

To wraith on overcoming DR, the golem only had a DR of 5, the monk went over it easily. What they needed was teamwork so that the monk could go over DR with all attacks (most of which hit once it was tripped and grappled). The monk didn't need a magic weapon, it was a good offensive build!


I don't allow shopping. Special orders is another matter entirely. Find someone to craft the object you want, pay them for their time and trouble, and wait for them to make it.

Holding inventory is modern, and no one has the wealth to make a +1 flaming sword and hold that wealth sterile until you find a buyer. Its much easier to wait until the customer shows up, cash in hand, and his purchase buys your materials.


When I allow characters to buy more expensive items that is how I approach it as well. It makes the most sense. Though, I'm okay with the odd merchant in a big city having a few minor magic items for sale.

Vertico wrote:

I don't allow shopping. Special orders is another matter entirely. Find someone to craft the object you want, pay them for their time and trouble, and wait for them to make it.

Holding inventory is modern, and no one has the wealth to make a +1 flaming sword and hold that wealth sterile until you find a buyer. Its much easier to wait until the customer shows up, cash in hand, and his purchase buys your materials.


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I have the players give me a "wish list" and I try and incorporate those items into the adventures, or otherwise create opportunities for them to obtain them.

Headband of Intellect: Wouldn't everyone in Golarion be wearing one of these? Would they really be for sale anywhere?

Isn't "Magical" a synonym for "special"? How can anything be magical if it's mass-produced and sold in Magic Mart?

No Magic Marts please.

And I'm considering the use of Heroic Distinctions (detailed in another thread), although my group seems to be doing fine without them so far.


I tend to roll what's available in the city per week as per the CRB. However, a couple of things about my setting.

First, the majority of towns are villages and small towns, with the occasional large town. Small cities are uncommon and Large cities are rare. There may be one or two metropolises per continent that are centers of learning, trade, and culture. These are the Romes and Constantinoples of the area. So usually, my players are rolling on the small-large town with the occasional city here and there.

Second, I don't do just stores. Many times, especially for rare, major items, it's usually a collector that has it that may be willing to part, or a nobleman/baron that may have it from their adventuring days. Or it could be some lucky museum curator or fence that may not fathom how powerful and rare such an item is.

Finally, I roll up things per week and, from my Kingmaker setting, I have a monthly Sale Check on each item to see if it is gone. It's something I liked from Kingmaker and I use it.


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I'm reminded of a fighter who got his +1 sword shattered. HAd to fall back to using a masterwork one. Character spent the remainder of the session and the next session singing a repetitive tune. The tune went something like:"I'm useless now."


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That would be a bit annoying, given that a +1 sword isn't really that much better than a MW sword- suck it up player. The only way he would be useless would be if the party was fighting a lot of creatures with DR/magic (in that case his song might be warranted).

The equalizer wrote:
I'm reminded of a fighter who got his +1 sword shattered. HAd to fall back to using a masterwork one. Character spent the remainder of the session and the next session singing a repetitive tune. The tune went something like:"I'm useless now."


Must have forgotten he had feats, and that the fighter is very baller.

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