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Andrew R wrote: or in your world does the hero just be all my little pony and make it cry and become friends in the end? Actually, Malifice earlier said that if the kobold were released, it would immediately have reformed and helped the party later as a proper civilized gentleman. Apparently being beaten half to death, seeing your friends killed, and then being tossed into the wilderness alone magically turns you Good in Malifice's fantasy world.
In other words, yes, that is exactly what Malifice expects to happen. And anyone who treats the game characters as running on actual logic or psychology, instead of making them inhuman cartoons, is evil for not recognizing that.
Roberta Yang wrote: Andrew R wrote: or in your world does the hero just be all my little pony and make it cry and become friends in the end? Actually, Malifice earlier said that if the kobold were released, it would immediately have reformed and helped the party later as a proper civilized gentleman. Apparently being beaten half to death, seeing your friends killed, and then being tossed into the wilderness alone magically turns you Good in Malifice's fantasy world.
In other words, yes, that is exactly what Malifice expects to happen. And anyone who treats the game characters as running on actual logic or psychology, instead of making them inhuman cartoons, is evil for not recognizing that.
Um yeah, happens all the time, in soaps, "Luke and Laura" anyone?
Andrew R wrote: So the death penalty is evil? In my mind (and from the POV of most of the developed and enlightened world including all of Europe, the UK and Ireland, Australia, New Zealand etc and most of the USA barring a few States) yes, it is.
You can differ of course, and youre entitled to that opinion, but in my game world, thats the way it is.
Of course capital punishement may be (and often is) Lawful - but its not (in my game world and in my opinion) Good.
Paladins fight to create a world where savagery, execution, violence and killing are no longer needed, and where mercy, charity and compassion rule the day.
They are righteous and benevolent divine warriors who take the battle to very forces that would undermine this goal, but must avoid slipping into darkness themselves in the fight.
This is why the code exists; Paladins must always strive to be better than those they fight against, should always pursue the higher moral ground, and must at all costs avoid resorting to the methods and tools of the evil they seek to vanquish.
Just the one willing act of evil, and the Paladin falls (till he attones).
Again; thats how it is in my game world - your interpretation may differ, and good on you - youre entitled to your own opinion.
What the Paladins should have done is untied the Kobold, tie a dagger to his palm, and then kill him in combat.
You can't say it is unarmed becayse it has a dagger. It can't even drop the dagger because it is tied in its hand. Thus killed in combat.
Roberta Yang wrote: Actually, Malifice earlier said that if the kobold were released, it would immediately have reformed and helped the party No I didnt.
It would have been surprised to have been released (it was expecting to be killed; its what it is used to coming from a LE society).
It probably would have ran away into the woods; the Kobold King likely wouldnt have been impressed with its failure to do its job and stop the Adventurers entering the lair.
Although having the Kobold be so touched by this act of mercy, and returning to help the PC's later on would have made a cool story (and a suitable reward for the Paladin making the correct moral choice).
My game world has a way of rewarding good moral choices; not punishing people for them. Just like evil tends to beget more evil, so does good tend to beget more good. Same deal with Krynn and Dragonlance where Evil always turns in on itself, and good deeds often get rewarded.
Call it karma ;)
Starbuck_II wrote: What the Paladins should have done is untied the Kobold, tie a dagger to his palm, and then kill him in combat.
You can't say it is unarmed becayse it has a dagger. It can't even drop the dagger because it is tied in its hand. Thus killed in combat.
The Gods are a bit smarter than to be fooled by such a ruse.
You should play a Knight Errant from Hackmaster.
Malifice wrote: My game world has a way of rewarding good moral choices; not punishing people for them. Just like evil tends to beget more evil, so does good tend to beget more good. Same deal with Krynn and Dragonlance where Evil always turns in on itself, and good deeds often get rewarded.
Call it karma ;)
In other words, you require characters to do stupid nonsensical things, then rewrite the laws of the universe to pretend they weren't stupid and destroy them if they don't act stupid. There are no decisions worth thinking about because the logical consequences of an action and its actual consequences have no relation to each other.
Sounds really fun.
Roberta Yang wrote: In other words, you require characters to do stupid nonsensical things, then rewrite the laws of the universe to pretend they weren't stupid and destroy them if they don't act stupid. There are no decisions worth thinking about because the logical consequences of an action and its actual consequences have no relation to each other.
Sounds really fun.
Not at all.
Why would the Kobold return to its King? He's just as likely to kill the thing for failure (he's evil) than to reward him for his loyalty, and the Kobold is well aware of his Kings general nastyness.
It might consider returning to protect its wife and kids, but OTOH its evil, so it might just call it a day and stay gone.
Its perfectly logical for the pathetic thing to run off. Its certainly not as far fetched as you make it out to be.
The entry for Kobolds describes them as being cowardly; you suddenly want this kobold to return to the dungeon (under assault by adventurers) in order to reach the King and risk getting executed for failure?
From a metagame perspective, Im certainly not the kind of GM that throws wave upon wave of surrendering Kobolds at my PC's, only to screw with them or punish them for making the correct moral decsions, and I think it makes a far better game if good deeds tend to go rewarded.
Maybe your DM has a habit of scewing your players over for making morally correct choices, and thats perhaps why you are see 'its a trap' the instant a moral choice needs to be made, but I certainly dont play my games that way. It makes for a poor game where the player of a paladin is constantly punished by the GM for trying to do the right thing, wouldnt you agree?
I certainly wouldnt want to play a Paladin in such a campaign where I get punished for doing good.
Of course that said, sometimes it may very well be a trap, and the creature could very well be lying or planning to return to kill you later; otherwise the choice isnt a difficult one for the player to make. (otwewise the player metagames and reasons that he can just release a creature and it stays gone). Thats where skills like sense motive and diplomacy (both Paladin class skills) and roleplaying come in.
The player is torn; killing it would be convenient for the character, while releasing it may be dangerous, even though its the right thing to do.
Moral choices are not supposed to be easy, just like in real life.
See: Tom Hanks character in Saving Private Ryan and the subplot featuring the captured German.
Finally, why you so mad?
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Malifice wrote: Andrew R wrote: So the death penalty is evil? In my mind (and from the POV of most of the developed and enlightened world including all of Europe, the UK and Ireland, Australia, New Zealand etc and most of the USA barring a few States) yes, it is
I love how you use your terms
It seems "Enlightened" = agreeing with you - OBTW, I'm against the Death Penalty but there are things I may reconsider that position
Malifice wrote: You can differ of course, and youre entitled to that opinion, but in my game world, thats the way it is. Well good for you. Does your game have "Lollipop Woods", do you players have to worry about "Molasses Swamp" at the foot of "The Gumdrop Mountains"? How do they take the "Rainbow Trail" to really make good time? Malifice wrote: Of course capital punishement may be (and often is) Lawful - but its not (in my game world and in my opinion) Good. Actually it doesn't have to be Lawful and as for "good", really depends as capturing an evil outside and killing it would be "good" and I dare say a mortal but thoroughly evil Mage Malifice wrote: Paladins fight to create a world where savagery, execution, violence and killing are no longer needed, and where mercy, charity and compassion rule the day. All together now! Kum-bye-ya m'Lord Malifice wrote: They are righteous and benevolent divine warriors who take the battle to very forces that would undermine this goal, but must avoid slipping into darkness themselves in the fight. And tricked with their pants down three ways from Sunday but any fiend with half a brain Malifice wrote: This is why the code exists; Paladins must always strive to be better than those they fight against, should always pursue the higher moral ground, and must at all costs avoid resorting to the methods and tools of the evil they seek to vanquish. All worth goals but fought with one hand tied behind their back and feet in concrete
I look at it very differently. From Star Trek when Spock, Kirk, Lincoln and the Vulcan hero went agains Kublia Khan, Col Green a really bad klingon, etc - Good and Evil fight the same way, use many of the same tactics but why?
Good doesn't want to fight and it took the threat of destroying Enterprise to get them to fight Malifice wrote: Just the one willing act of evil, and the Paladin falls (till he attones).
Again; thats how it is in my game world - your interpretation may differ, and good on you - youre entitled to your own opinion.
Yes we are and you're entitled to your game. I think you have it where it is all happy at the end as that is what you want it to be
I like my games a wee bit darker, grittier and the chooses are very bad, worse, and "Holy crap, what did I do" and you really don't have a clue which one it is
Of course my Paladins when they do find Evil, it is EVIL and the smart ones watch it, the dumb ones don't lose their powers, they generally lose their lives from a big deadly case of the "Stoopids"
BB36 wrote: It seems "Enlightened" = agreeing with you - OBTW, I'm against the Death Penalty but there are things I may reconsider that position Thats because youre probably Neutral IRL.
;)
Im also probaly N (CN to be preceise) with good tendencies. I work for a homeless charity, and do a bit of human rights stuff, but my personal relationships with women leave a lot to be desired (Ive broken a few hearts through selfishness). I can be a bit capricious at times. A bit of good, a bit of evil and a lack of empathy for the feelings of others at times, but no strong leanings either way.
I also regularly ignore the law and do my own thing (depsite being a Lawyer!), am unconventional and a bit of a 'lone wolf' (currently travelling the world for a few years for the experience).
Quote: Well good for you. Does your game have "Lollipop Woods", do you players have to worry about "Molasses Swamp" at the foot of "The Gumdrop Mountains"? How do they take the "Rainbow Trail" to really make good time? The Paladin can holiday there when he's not locked in a grim life or death battle with Demons, devils, undead monstrosities, violent barbaric Orcs and dark cultists.
Malifice wrote: Actually it doesn't have to be Lawful and as for "good", really depends as capturing an evil outside and killing it would be "good" and I dare say a mortal but thoroughly evil Mage Agree execution does not have to be lawful. Capital punishement often is however (the proscribed penalty for a fixed offence).
Re the evil mage, Im sure many people would subjectively see his execution as a good deed.
Most of them would be Neutral.
At the execution, you would likely have protesters from good aligned churches protesting the killing though.
Just like IRL.
Quote: And tricked with their pants down three ways from Sunday but any fiend with half a brain Tricked how exactly? The evil mage throws down his weapons and recants his evil, he must still pay for his crimes (lawfully) via imprisonment and set about making things right. An attonement spell (to allow a genuinely evil person to change alignment) would be a good start.
The Paladin drags the evil bastard before his peers, and sees to it that justice is done, and lets his mercy and compassion is an example to all. If not practical, he ties the evil sucker up, and comes back for him when convenient.
Bearing in mind, that many Golarion societies have the Death penalty (few people are as enlightened as the Paladin) so the Mage is probably fighting for his life (should he surrender and get handed over to the authorities) anyways.
You need to realise that 'punishing wrongdoers who threaten or harm innocents' does not allow execution, torture, selling them into slavery, or other cruel or unusual punishments.
Quote: All worthy goals but fought with one hand tied behind their back and feet in concrete No-one said being good was easy.
Far from it.
And what is stopping the evil mage from just lying about repenting and just blasting the naive morons in the face once he's freed?
Because apparently in your world Good is Dumb, and that's why Evil Wins.
Icyshadow wrote: And what is stopping the evil mage from just lying about repenting and just blasting the naive morons in the face once he's freed?
Because apparently in your world Good is Dumb, and that's why Evil Wins.
Sense motive and Roleplaying for a start.
Zone of truth, detect evil, attonement and so on for a mechanical perspective.
Just because the Paladin shouldnt mercilessly slay the bastard after he surrenders, doesnt mean that the paladin is restricted from ripping off his component pouch, binding and gagging him, and dragging him off to the courts (or his victims) to face justice.
You see a Paladins having to accept surrender as a weakness.
Its a strength.
If his foes wish to surrender to the Paladin without putting up a fight, so much the better for the Paladin. It makes his job easier, not harder.
When a group gets a reputation for not taking prisoners, you tend to find that most of their enemeies fight to the death. OTOH if you have a reputation for mercy, you will find many people will surrender without the need for violence, allowing you to achieve your objective without killing and mayhem.
Thats (in part) why the Paladin does what he does.
Not going to bother cleaning up this thread, but several posters have crossed the line of what is acceptable discourse. Take a step back from the keyboard, go enjoy the day.
Locking thread.
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