Maybe it isn't evil--but it sure doesnt make you honorable and heroic. People won't look at you with respect.
If all Goblins must be killed--it will be interesting to see what Paladins do now that there will be like 30 or so Goblins in the pathfinder society? even if you dont do PFS--that means there would be goblins legally running around absalom if you ever visit.
Are you going to kill them?
are you going to keep allowing the slavers to live?
so you will kill the pathfinder goblins but ignore the slavers enslaving little kids?
yes--there are moral quandries to running a Paladin. They shouldn't all affect your powers---but they sure will affect your reputation.
I'll pick out that bit rather than quote the whole thing. You're misunderstanding the nature of Lawful alignments. At it's core Lawful= a belief in order. For a Paladin the Lawful in his alignment stems from his church and code. Any other power (such as a king) comes a distant second. Paladins should be respectful of good authority, but Church and Code come first. Part of his code and divine mandate is to slay evil. They answer to a higher "law".My point. If there is no lawful... then you are can not execute 'lawfully'.
One of the keys though... is that it's YOUR code. How can you lawfully punish people for not following YOUR code?
Really... a LOT of these conversations take the Paladin from the bright and shining beacon of good... and push them into 'Spanish inquistion' O.o
It's one thing to slaughter goblins, orcs and undead... but people like to use the same reasoning on guards and bandits...
Paladins HAVE to be more the 'Might makes Right...'
It's one thing to slaughter goblins, orcs and undead... but people like to use the same reasoning on guards and bandits...
I'd say there is no difference at all.
Both are equally monstrous actions.
Paladins must judge by actions and character, not the nature of one's birth. Good does not play favorites. Evil done to others does not become less so simply because of their race.
I'll pick out that bit rather than quote the whole thing. You're misunderstanding the nature of Lawful alignments. At it's core Lawful= a belief in order. For a Paladin the Lawful in his alignment stems from his church and code. Any other power (such as a king) comes a distant second. Paladins should be respectful of good authority, but Church and Code come first. Part of his code and divine mandate is to slay evil. They answer to a higher "law".My point. If there is no lawful... then you are can not execute 'lawfully'.
One of the keys though... is that it's YOUR code. How can you lawfully punish people for not following YOUR code?
Really... a LOT of these conversations take the Paladin from the bright and shining beacon of good... and push them into 'Spanish inquistion' O.o
It's one thing to slaughter goblins, orcs and undead... but people like to use the same reasoning on guards and bandits...
Paladins HAVE to be more the 'Might makes Right...'
Moral Relativism has very little in a Lawful mindset, especially not a paladin's. Remember that given the existence of absolute alignments, Law is a fundamental building block of the universe. Of course a paladin's Law obviously applies to everyone else, since it applies to everything in the universe, according to a paladin's thinking.
Paladins are awe-inspiring, fearsome symbols of ultimate Law and Good. At best they are incorruptible and absolutely just. They are not bound by the laws of piddly temporal rulers.
This of course, depends on deity. Paladins of Ioedae or Torag are more likely to stick to this party line completely. A paladin of Sarenrae can set aside justice for mercy, but if the redemption is not sincere or does not stick, they are ruthless with Evil.
1) Not MY god... Kinda sucks for EVERYONE to be held to Torag's divine Justice... Especially if your a Paladin of ANOTHER god. I can see Torag and Sarenra getting QUITE annoyed with each other on philosphy...
And on SOME of these threads.. Sarenrae's quest to lead to redemption... would be considered 'evil' by Torag's followers...
And dragging the kobold back to town is kidnapping, which is evil and sucks for the poor kobold, so we'd better not try that either. In fact, until the paladin receives notarized missives of approval signed by the highest possible representatives of 25 different deities, the paladin should just sit in her home city arresting common pickpockets and debtors.
What you get by not slitting the throat of a helpless prisoner is more kind of a respect from your party
You must play with a very unusual group if statements like "No need to prioritize our urgent rescue mission, let's take random unrepentant kobolds alive and drag them back to the nearest village for trial" are met with respect rather than disbelief.
I'll pick out that bit rather than quote the whole thing. You're misunderstanding the nature of Lawful alignments. At it's core Lawful= a belief in order. For a Paladin the Lawful in his alignment stems from his church and code. Any other power (such as a king) comes a distant second. Paladins should be respectful of good authority, but Church and Code come first. Part of his code and divine mandate is to slay evil. They answer to a higher "law".My point. If there is no lawful... then you are can not execute 'lawfully'.
One of the keys though... is that it's YOUR code. How can you lawfully punish people for not following YOUR code?
Really... a LOT of these conversations take the Paladin from the bright and shining beacon of good... and push them into 'Spanish inquistion' O.o
It's one thing to slaughter goblins, orcs and undead... but people like to use the same reasoning on guards and bandits...
Paladins HAVE to be more the 'Might makes Right...'
That's very NG attitude to have. :)
Paladins are more than might makes right when you keep in mind they are still good. They shouldn't throw their weight around with Neutral of Good NPCs, but evil is another matter entirely. The Paladin doesn't even have to make a judgement call on whether someone is evil or not. They can detect evil at will. That's not to say just because some evil merchant is having a drink at the same inn as the Paladin he has a right to kill the guy. Once that evil translates into harming the innocent though...
To me a vital part of playing a Paladin is a lack of equivocation. They KNOW what's right and act on it. They also don't put up with excuses when it comes to evil. That may be a little Spanish Inquisitiony, but Paladins are holy warriors. A little bit of that comes with the territory.
To me, killing an unarmed prisoner is murder. Period.And thats how I see it. (And Im the GM in this campaign).
Killing a helpless sentient creature who is helpless, begging for his life, crying and so on and totally at your mercy is an evil act.
Should a Paladin intentionally do so, he breaks his code.
Iced2K - Hint hint.
A real paladin would've taken the kobold back to receive justice at court (as silly as that seems).Justice for 'what' exactly? Why on earth are Kobolds subject to human laws? From the Kobolds perspective he was defending his tribe from adventurers (he has a wife and kids down there remember).
A Paladin is expected to uphold the highest values of good, mercy kindess and benevolence. There are many ways for a Paladin to deal with an enemy who surrenders, execution out of frustration isnt one of them.
He can intimidate, interrogate or cajole information or co-operation out of the prisoner. He certainly cant torture the prisoner. He can offer the prisoner a chance at attonement or redemption. He can leave the prisoner tied up (but if possible not merely tied up to die).
Also note, the tied up Kobold didnt have a clue what the big armored slashy man was saying (He doesnt understand Common, only Draconic - which no-one in the party spoke). The party OTOH knew exactly what the Kobold was saying (The cleric had cast Comprahend languages).
It went along the lines of 'Please dont kill me, I dont want to die.. sob, balther, sob'
Then, out of frustration and anger, *Snick*.
Evil act? Check. Intentional? Check.
Might want to look up that Paladin code again.
It was crying and pleading for it's life? Wow... that's... Yeah, good call, man.
To me, killing an unarmed prisoner is murder. Period.And thats how I see it. (And Im the GM in this campaign).
Killing a helpless sentient creature who is helpless, begging for his life, crying and so on and totally at your mercy is an evil act.
Should a Paladin intentionally do so, he breaks his code.
Iced2K - Hint hint.
A real paladin would've taken the kobold back to receive justice at court (as silly as that seems).Justice for 'what' exactly? Why on earth are Kobolds subject to human laws? From the Kobolds perspective he was defending his tribe from adventurers (he has a wife and kids down there remember).
A Paladin is expected to uphold the highest values of good, mercy kindess and benevolence. There are many ways for a Paladin to deal with an enemy who surrenders, execution out of frustration isnt one of them.
He can intimidate, interrogate or cajole information or co-operation out of the prisoner. He certainly cant torture the prisoner. He can offer the prisoner a chance at attonement or redemption. He can leave the prisoner tied up (but if possible not merely tied up to die).
Also note, the tied up Kobold didnt have a clue what the big armored slashy man was saying (He doesnt understand Common, only Draconic - which no-one in the party spoke). The party OTOH knew exactly what the Kobold was saying (The cleric had cast Comprahend languages).
It went along the lines of 'Please dont kill me, I dont want to die.. sob, balther, sob'
Then, out of frustration and anger, *Snick*.
Evil act? Check. Intentional? Check.
Might want to look up that Paladin code again.
If you have time read the whole thread Malifice.
I strongly advise we don't use this forum to speak to each other on.
It was crying and pleading for it's life? Wow... that's... Yeah, good call, man.
Hang on!
Firstly this is a trained soldier, that the DM had expressly gone out of his way to point out.
A trained and lethal enemy combatant complicit in and maybe responsible for the capture, torture and consumation of 5 human children.
What's more an Evil (yes I detected) Kobold. And here's a direct quote from their description in the Bestiary:
'Cowards and schemers, they never fight fair if
they can help it, instead setting up ambushes and doublecrosses,
holing up in their warrens behind countless
crude but ingenious traps, or rolling over the enemy in
vast, yipping hordes.'
My character executed the creature for it's crimes, because it was evil and because it did not accept my offer of mercy.
As many people have quoted from Sarenrae's Paladin code:
'I will not abide evil, and will combat it with steel when
words are not enough.'
'I will redeem the ignorant with my words and my
actions. If they will not turn toward the light, I will
redeem them by the sword.'
I've emailed you, as I mentioned I'm interested in other people's opinions on a topic of debate in this thread, not on us having a conversation over it in public.
Where's BB36 when I need him!
The forces of good are weak, if they can't redeem and bend an evil baby killer to the service of the greater good.
Killing is easy, but a new servant of good is not something you can make by killing.
Arguments like 'Yes I committed genocide and rounded up and exterminated all the Orcs on Golarion in gas chambers, but it was for the greater good' or 'These Drow babies are going to grow up and be evil, so Im doing a good thing by throwing them in the fire now before they grow up' dont wash on the deities (and they shouldnt wash on any sane GM either).
I don't recall anyone making that argument?
It was crying and pleading for it's life? Wow... that's... Yeah, good call, man.
To be fair, there are going to be times when bad guys will cry and plead for their lives when they've been captured, but won't hesitate to stab the Paladin in the back the instant he shows mercy and/or drops his guard.
But that's why I always take plenty of ranks in sense motive when I play a Paladin. Paladins need to be righteous, but that doesn't include an obligation to play the sucker when dealing with all the unrighteous folks out there.
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Sounds like leadership is a mandatory feat then, so the paladin has someone to babysit all the lying scheming NPCs who ask for mercy, waiting for the chance to stab the party in the back. Since they can't be killed and it would be foolish to release them before everything is over, you need someone to babysit them. The only thing worse than falling for killing a helpless victim would be falling because you left him tied up and something came along and ate him. After all, that would be a mark on him since he was reponsible for its safety.
How is it any worse to have given him a dagger and have him run off, only to get magic missiled in the back or run through from behind by the barbarian? Is it okay because the paladin's hands aren't the ones directly getting dirty? If so, fantastic, we have our preferred method of execution now.
Heres a test, what would the kobold do if it ran across a helpless human child after fleeing the party? If the paladin can't honestly answer "leave it alone or help it", then killing this destructive evil creature should be justified. Remember, the paladin in this example is chasing down child kidnapping kobolds, not some random one out in the woods foraging for his family.
If you want to follow these high paladin ideals, you have to give the paladin some parameters. Making the same standards apply to known evil races as you would apply to a neutral with evil tendencies human bandit is not fair to the paladin or his party. Is he going to bring back a troll who covers his face and cowers in the corner? Let it go so it can come up behind and eat the cleric in the next heated battle? What are his choices here really?
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FACT: All children have Neutral Evil alignment...
Setting aside the horror show of this specific situation, I'm still of the opinion that killing him isn't an evil act. In itself. There are some mitigating factors (dude, crying?!?) in this one case. I do think confirming that he's evil does help Iced2k's case a bit.
This Kobold was involved in the kidnapping of children for strait up evil reasons. He's no innocent. Him defending his tribe and family is totally beside the point. Short of somehow redeeming himself, his fate should be sealed. If he doesn't die by an adventurers sword, the townsfolk would hang him. I don't see a problem with the Paladin being the instrument of justice here. That's part of what they do. Granted, there could be some nit picky argument about the law of the land (not that Kobolds apply), but the Paladin is loyal to his church first. Applying divine justice may seem presumptuous, but that's the nature of the class.
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First off Malifice, my arguments on this thread are not directed at you or any specific GM. My experience with paladins playing under GMs ( from hearsay and direct experience) is that the game starts with GMs watching for reasons to have the paladin fall. If there is a strong valid reason, fantastic. If it is over a goblin children, a captured kobold or the like, thats a strong penalty for a minor transgression. Thats my issue, all sins seem to be cardinal and not venal.
If you enforce the same strictures of alignment on all your players, forcing them all to make the same sort of choices to stay non-evil, then good on you, you make it possible to play a paladin in your group. That however, almost never happens. The paladin is almost always singled out as the target for all alignment issues and is usually the only one to pay the price.
Obviously there needs to be a long discussion at character creation about expectations, and if that happened and wasn't conveyed here, I'm suprised at the OP for posting in the first place.
My experience has been that the nitpickingly high standard that GMs tend to hold paladins to makes adventuring so incredibly dangerous that he becomes a liability. I mean things like taking prisoners and having to guard them, releasing bad guys (at high levels, this=asking to be TPKed), not allowing sentient beings to be charmed or mind controlled, and in general exposing the other party members to a long more danger than they would normally face. My other earlier comments hopefully give some context to the most recent ones since you joined the discussion.
...good stuff...
There are whole races of treacherous, cowardly, vicious creatures out there, in fact most of the small humanoids tend to be that way in the face of stronger opponents.
We arent necesarily talking about surrender. Having creatures captured alive can happen, especially if the party is trying to accomplish this end.
The Barbarian (or Wizard) would edge closer towards an Evil alignment if they did this.
Wow, seriously?? evil for killing a threat to their safety and the children? If I was a chaotic neutral or even chaotic good barbarian, I think I would be rather unhappy with this judgment. Unless it was perfectly clear that this kobold would not return to his tribe and potentially risk the lives of the other children, I don't see how you could let him go, fanatic, coward, scared little rabbit, however you classify him.
What is this?Minority Report?
Umm, no. If a serial killer begged for his life and was set free, do you really think he isn't going to continue his evil ways? Are you not responsible for any deaths he causes after that if you are a paladin? How is this different. We aren't talking about a bandit forced into the lifestyle to feed his family. The example is a child kidnapping evil humanoid race that is part of a larger tribe that still has the children.
Paladins cant go around killing creatures for evil stuff they might (or might not) do in the future!
True, however paladins should be able to go around killing known evil creatures that pose a threat to the nearby communities for evil stuff they have already done and might (or might not) do in the future.
This is why as a GM and Player of a PC who may have a "Code" be it Paladin's, Druidic or Clerical I thrash out before play what is and isn't acceptable.
Both Player and GM write the "Code" together before playing the PC so this kind of situation is avoided. They both have input so each gets a say in how the PC is played (Player's concept) and what is "wrong" and the consequences of breaking the Code (GM). Until that agreement has been made between the player and GM the PC shouldn't be played or there should be no repercussions for "breaking" the code.
What 99% of "Will my Paladin fall" threads have been caused by is not doing this. IMO.
FACT: All children have Neutral Evil alignment...ROFL.. are you a teacher? My daughter says this all the time and she's a high school latin teacher.
They shift to Chaotic Evil over time but their actual alignment isn't "fixed" until the hormones have stabilised...
Not a teacher...parent... same thing but with more responsibility
To me, killing an unarmed prisoner is murder. Period.And thats how I see it. (And Im the GM in this campaign).
Killing a helpless sentient creature who is helpless, begging for his life, crying and so on and totally at your mercy is an evil act.
Should a Paladin intentionally do so, he breaks his code.
Iced2K - Hint hint.
A real paladin would've taken the kobold back to receive justice at court (as silly as that seems).Justice for 'what' exactly? Why on earth are Kobolds subject to human laws? From the Kobolds perspective he was defending his tribe from adventurers (he has a wife and kids down there remember).
A Paladin is expected to uphold the highest values of good, mercy kindess and benevolence. There are many ways for a Paladin to deal with an enemy who surrenders, execution out of frustration isnt one of them.
He can intimidate, interrogate or cajole information or co-operation out of the prisoner. He certainly cant torture the prisoner. He can offer the prisoner a chance at attonement or redemption. He can leave the prisoner tied up (but if possible not merely tied up to die).
Also note, the tied up Kobold didnt have a clue what the big armored slashy man was saying (He doesnt understand Common, only Draconic - which no-one in the party spoke). The party OTOH knew exactly what the Kobold was saying (The cleric had cast Comprahend languages).
It went along the lines of 'Please dont kill me, I dont want to die.. sob, balther, sob'
Then, out of frustration and anger, *Snick*.
Evil act? Check. Intentional? Check.
Might want to look up that Paladin code again.
Yep. Good points. I have mentioned this to some gamers. Not to kill all the wicked but to try and lead them back to the righteous path. Not every evil individual is beyond redemption. Some of them will say:"but the villain/villains who surrendered could be bluffing. Preparing to shiv the paladin after he walks closer. Its safer and more practical/pragmatic to just kill them." There we have it, pragmatism which at its best is morally questionable most of the time. Paladins can't just take the path of most convenience, neither can other good-aligned individuals.
I believe many of the comments here have made assumptions that were not in the OP, which is why I stated that the only relevant fact is that we and the paladin knew was that he killed a helpless sentient.
Two key assumptions of the situation have distracted from assessing the act as evil:
1. Kobolds are all evil in Golorian. The Kingmaker AP has a tribe of neutral kobolds, so this statement is not true.
2. The prisoner kidnapped or was a party of kidnapping children. I don't believe that this was established. All the we and the paladin knew was this guy was a sentry to his household.
A. The OP said that the village was unhelpful. Maybe they lied about seeing kobolds kidnap their children.
B. Even if kobolds did kidnap the kids, it doesn't mean the sentry knew about it. The kidnappers could be a small, evil cult within the tribe. Or a political rival who wants to draw humans to attack the tribe, so they could replace the chief.
The point is that we and the paladin don't know. Instead of a kobold, this helpless sentient could very well have been a random human militia guard who can only say "Please don't kill me," in common.
And to the posters who don't believe in the paladin code of conduct, I would say it's there in the game for fun. Some players enjoy the challenge. And paladins losing their divine powers is not the end of the world. It's an opportunity for good role-playing and character-building. Without evil, one does not know good.
Yes, leaving this helpless sentient to be killed by the fighter or rogue is fine, but it doesn't make the act in less evil... only a lack of game mechanic consequences.
cheers
Given the DM's input to this particular conversation, I think a warning is absolutely justified and it's up to the player whether or not to take that warning and apply it or not.
People keep saying that the Paladin is Judge, Jury and Execution. But really, in this case that's the DM's role. If the DM sees the act as evil then that's all the end of the discussion, in my opinion.
And before people get all fired up about DMs taking advantage of players and all that, I say that as a guy who plays a lot more than DMs. I think the DM should be the final arbiter as to whether or not my paladin is breaking the rules. As the player, it's my job to know what the DM expects. Either that or I play something else. It's not that complicated.
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Okay, here's how I see this. Those who adhere to modern ethical standards can leave this discussion because truly Golarion is not the same case, as pointed out by the canon text on multiple occasions, all the way from warning about all manner of monsters killing you (or perhaps doing worse, in the case of beings like ogres) as well as the way of dealing with bandits, even if they were normal humans. The law in one Kingmaker text (check the first book of the AP) clearly states that the PCs have the right to take matters into their own hands, and that the judgement passed for banditry is death, by hanging or by the blade. THERE ARE NO OTHER OPTIONS.
Also, I have seen that it's more an exception than the norm to have DMs who let typically evil beings (such as orcs, kobolds, goblins and whatnot) to have that change of heart. It's much more likely that it will backstab you after pretending to play along. Even if you redeem five guys in a row, all it takes is one backstab for the whole party to go "never again" and start killing all things with the "EVIL" label on it on sight, even if they'd claim otherwise, to the point of ignoring Sense Motive checks with the excuse "he was probably lying and beat my Sense Motive with a better Bluff check", which is meta-gaming but still a character action, as in the decision NOT to trust the guy regardless of the gut feeling saying "coast is clear". The deciding factor is the DM's view on redemption.
Barring house-ruling Paladin codes and behaviors to suit a wider range of alignments (like I do), the way I see a Paladin approach law is not as an inconvenience but as something solid and safe in a sea of chaos.
When dealing with "Who's law does he champion" then a Paladin is either a direct agent of his deity in which case the religion defines where and when he needs to act, or he's acting as a divine agent of state, injecting his particular deities brand of justice into regular law enforcement.
When 'Paladining around' in civilization I can imagine the Paladin almost needing a letter of marque from whatever local administrative body serves the area so he can feel free to dispense justice on the fly, given he adheres to the law (and given the laws are not in major conflict with the Paladins code).
BB36's comparison with Judge Dredd is perfect really...so perfect I need to make him real and get to play him! =D
Holy Gun archtype, speaks to his weapon to activate its special abilities, "Throw down your weapons and prepare to be judged!", "I am the Law".
This is happening.
Paladin in action
Lawful Good Paladin & a Chaotic Evil Blackguard arguing
Dreihaddar, interpretations like that are the reason why I'd love to play a Paladin / Hellknight.
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Here's a few things I've heard over the years as a DM and player on Paladins:
#1 "Paladins should ALWAYS follow the law of the land"
#1 - Ans: Great what if the "law of the land is LE/NE and all escaped slaves must be returned (so they can be beaten nearly to or just to death)"? Does the Paladin lose their Paladinhood for not following the law?
#2 "Killing prisoners is not good"
#2 - Ans: Well Texas is going to hell. But there are many precedents where evil people were captured, made sure who they were and killed. A prisoner that a Paladin's captured can and SHOULD expect fair treatment. They can still expect to be killed if their crimes are horrid enough (cooking babies of any sentient species after torturing them is more than good enough for me) or they are unrepentant, only thinking of themselves (mewing "Don't kill me" over and over instead of trying to undo what they did and helping out shows they only care about their own skin)
#3 "Paladins are social workers"
#3 - Ans: Why do Paladins only get 2 skill points + Int per level? Many use Int as a dump stat, how is that going to work? How does one be all of that and still a good Orator and decent Fighter? As far as feats go, Paladins don't get extra feats but are expected to have a good selection of Fighting, Spells and Social Feats. Yeah, that's going to work
#4 "Paladins must return prisoners to 'Legit Authority'"
#4 - Ans: Great, what's "Legit Authority" to a Paladin when they get their orders from a higher power? Would a collection of CG Cantons be a source of Legit Authority especially when each Canton has their own unique take on the "rules" they all more or LESS follow? What about a LE Tyranny? Is that Legit?
#4a - Ans: On "taking prisoners to trial" to say even a LG Kingdom, what type of Kingdom spends a great deal of wealth on jailing not to mention rehabilitating them, not to mention any "Special Needs Kids" that are Spell Caster, Evil Cleric, Psion, Outsider, etc? Who pays for all of that?
#4b - Ans: How far must they travel? What happens if they come across a slaver caravan that have been routinely abusing/raping/torturing their "property" in no man's land, 1000 miles from any civilization? The Slaver has a Legal Writ from said LE Tyranny, would attacking them be bad as the Slaver is legal? So the Paladin should do what?
Here's my take on Paladins
They are Human/Demi-Human/Humaniod, not Saints though they strive to be
They have the right to mete out Justice, which includes KILLING PRISONERS that show no sign nor inclination of truly repenting, ANYWHERE though they should defer to LN/LG/NG regimes and work with them. Likewise an NG Paladin works with LG/NG/CG perhaps an enlightened N power centers
If you're going to demand that Paladins do things that there are Feats for, Vow of {Insert Vow Here}, BoED Feats, etc and you want them to behave that way, give them the Feat including the bonuses that come with it
Paladins are the tool that goes into the wilderness and make it more "civilized and good" not errand boys/girls/whatever that have to run back to get Temporal Power to agree with them. They should mete out justice, even deadly justice, to those who are evil.
Remember Evil is EVIL, not spit on the sidewalk, use bad words, make rude gestures, etc. If a DM has a "evil person" who is evil because they are mean, the DM is not doing their job. Evil people like causing pain, go out of their way to harm or allow to let others die for their own personal gain. A guy who throws an old woman out of her hovel because he was told to do so but feels terrible is not evil. The landlord that does it so they can make more money knowing beforehand the woman will die of exposure IS EVIL
The Kobold was evil and it is the Kobold's job to repent. Yes the Paladin needs to give them a chance but the time allotted depends on the circumstances. Needing to rescue the kids, where a Kobold that escapes custody can really ruin the rescue, means the Kobold doesn't have much time
The NG Paladin was right in Killing The Kobold, and even though it took an extra day, was correct in getting the Cleric to take Comprehend Languages as there were definitely issues at the Village and the way the Party was treated, perhaps the Kobolds had a different agenda
The Paladin did it right and needs to get a promotion, not a reprimand
The Kobold was evil
Still an assumption.
Here's a few things I've heard over the years as a DM and player on Paladins: Lots...
That is why I advocate establishing the "Code of Conduct" be it for Paladin, Cleric or Druid between the Player and GM before actual play starts to avoid the "Will my Paladin fall because I done this" threads
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The Kobold was evilStill an assumption.
Pathfinder lists Kobolds as LE.
This is a member of of a group that kidnaps kids and most likely eats them. Sorry but knowingly being part of a group that goes out and captures sentient children for food and eating the "bounty" is Evil. That they guard it seals the deal.
Yeah, it's evil, especially when it was defending the nest where the kids are about to meet a horrid fate and the Kobold, who doesn't live at his station but is relieved and goes back to the main nest, knows what is going on and is most likely looking forward to dinner, not to mention torturing a few first for fun.
From the SRD on Kobolds:
"Kobolds are creatures of the dark, found most commonly in enormous underground warrens or the dark corners of the forest where the sun is unable to reach. Due to their physical similarities, kobolds loudly proclaim themselves the scions of dragonkind, destined to rule the earth beneath the wings of their great god-cousins, but most dragons have little use for the obnoxious pests.
While they may speak loudly of divine right and manifest destiny, kobolds are keenly aware of their own weakness. Cowards and schemers, they never fight fair if they can help it, instead setting up ambushes and double-crosses, holing up in their warrens behind countless crude but ingenious traps, or rolling over the enemy in vast, yipping hordes."
They live in a LE nest and they do to other Kobolds as well as others outside
I'd say you're reaching
Here's a few things I've heard over the years as a DM and player on Paladins:
#1 "Paladins should ALWAYS follow the law of the land"
#1 - Ans: Great what if the "law of the land is LE/NE and all escaped slaves must be returned (so they can be beaten nearly to or just to death)"? Does the Paladin lose their Paladinhood for not following the law?
#2 "Killing prisoners is not good"
#2 - Ans: Well Texas is going to hell. But there are many precedents where evil people were captured, made sure who they were and killed. A prisoner that a Paladin's captured can and SHOULD expect fair treatment. They can still expect to be killed if their crimes are horrid enough (cooking babies of any sentient species after torturing them is more than good enough for me) or they are unrepentant, only thinking of themselves (mewing "Don't kill me" over and over instead of trying to undo what they did and helping out shows they only care about their own skin)
#3 "Paladins are social workers"
#3 - Ans: Why do Paladins only get 2 skill points + Int per level? Many use Int as a dump stat, how is that going to work? How does one be all of that and still a good Orator and decent Fighter? As far as feats go, Paladins don't get extra feats but are expected to have a good selection of Fighting, Spells and Social Feats. Yeah, that's going to work
#4 "Paladins must return prisoners to 'Legit Authority'"
#4 - Ans: Great, what's "Legit Authority" to a Paladin when they get their orders from a higher power? Would a collection of CG Cantons be a source of Legit Authority especially when each Canton has their own unique take on the "rules" they all more or LESS follow? What about a LE Tyranny? Is that Legit?
#4a - Ans: On "taking prisoners to trial" to say even a LG Kingdom, what type of Kingdom spends a great deal of wealth on jailing not to mention rehabilitating them, not to mention any "Special Needs Kids" that are Spell Caster, Evil Cleric, Psion, Outsider, etc? Who pays for all of that?
#4b - Ans: How far must...
One more common one:
"Paladins must show mercy."There is nothing in the paladin code that says they need to show mercy or allow redemption. I agree that they should, but they don't have to. Punishing those who do evil is part of their code, however. This means that summary execution of a captive is as allowable as going to great lengths to redeem a captive. Even the LG alignment doesn't enforce redemption, in fact one could argue that a LG character should be harsher on transgressors and allow less of a chance for redemption than a NG/CG character. Now with a paladin of Sarenrae, redemption gets more important, but Torag and even Iomedae are not all about hugs and redemption to those who transgress. Slaying an evil captive may even (depending on circumstances) be preferable than letting them live and seek redemption.
For those who are interested. My DM has stated I have broken my code as he interprets it. The code he has given me is this:
'A paladin must be of neutral good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, the paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority but only as long as that authority is not used for evil ends, strive to act benevolently at all times (showing kindness, charity, mercy and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.'
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One more common one:
"Paladins must show mercy."There is nothing in the paladin code that says they need to show mercy or allow redemption. I agree that they should, but they don't have to. Punishing those who do evil is part of their code, however. This means that summary execution of a captive is as allowable as going to great lengths to redeem a captive. Even the LG alignment doesn't enforce redemption, in fact one could argue that a LG character should be harsher on transgressors and allow less of a chance for redemption than a NG/CG character. Now with a paladin of Sarenrae, redemption gets more important, but Torag and even Iomedae are not all about hugs and redemption to those who transgress. Slaying an evil captive may even (depending on circumstances) be preferable than letting them live and seek redemption.
Good Point.
Looking at the Class Skills of the Paladin gets "Smite Evil" and "Detect Evil" long before they get "Mercy" but the "Mercy" is laying on hands to help those the Paladin chooses to assist
I see far more Combat and not much Social Working going on for the Paladin
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For those who are interested. My DM has stated I have broken my code as he interprets it. The code he has given me is this:
'A paladin must be of neutral good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, the paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority but only as long as that authority is not used for evil ends, strive to act benevolently at all times (showing kindness, charity, mercy and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.'
Wow, so you must:
"punish those who harm or threaten innocents"
I guess you committed an Evil Act. I'd roll up a new character and say Paladins just aren't worth playing in his game. Be TN and do what you want. Obviously he wants a robot for a Paladin
There are neutral kobolds in Golorian. Therefore, an evil kobold is an assumption. Quoting SRD will not make it a fact.
This argument about the alignment of the kobold would be moot if the character did not have easy way to detect if his helpless sentient was evil. However, the paladin can easily Detect Evil and game mechanically smite anyone who pings as Evil. It's a character-building experience for a paladin to learn to wisely use his divine ability to Detect Evil.
EDIT All this discussion reminds me why I enjoy paladins.
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There are neutral kobolds in Golorian. Therefore, an evil kobold is an assumption. Quoting SRD will not make it a fact.
Did the TN Kobolds go out and eat kids after they kidnapped them? I rest my case
I not you didn't address the other parts that add to being evil
This argument about the alignment of the kobold would be moot if the character did not have easy way to detect evil. However, the paladin can easily Detect Evil and game mechanically slaughter anyone who pings as Evil. It's a character-building experience for a paladin to learn to wisely use his divine ability to Detect Evil.
True but that is a minor issue and the odds are heavily that the Kobold is Evil
What do you say about someone who willingly stays around and is a GUARD of a place where kids are tortured and butchered?
You're reaching and not being productive. Are you just arguing to argue?
There are neutral kobolds in Golorian. Therefore, an evil kobold is an assumption. Quoting SRD will not make it a fact.
This argument about the alignment of the kobold would be moot if the character did not have easy way to detect if his helpless sentient was evil. However, the paladin can easily Detect Evil and game mechanically smite anyone who pings as Evil. It's a character-building experience for a paladin to learn to wisely use his divine ability to Detect Evil.
I did detect. I detected evil.
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Killing an unarmed, helpless prisoner is evil. That's all there is to it. Precedent does not make an action good. What is good is offering the creature the chance to live and make amends on its own. If it doesn't, and you are forced to stop it again, then you stop it again, for as long as you need to. If you need to imprison it, then do so, but do not be so eager to hand out death and judgment.
For those who are interested. My DM has stated I have broken my code as he interprets it. The code he has given me is this:
'A paladin must be of neutral good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, the paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority but only as long as that authority is not used for evil ends, strive to act benevolently at all times (showing kindness, charity, mercy and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.'
Since you did detect evil, and even were offering the kobold a chance at redemption, and the kobold was not willing to seek it, I don't see how you should have lost your power. You showed mercy, and the kobold, though begging for his life, was not being repentive. Mercy isn't necessarily free and the kobold has to deserve said mercy. He detected evil, refused to repent and help you as penance, and probably would have done more harm had you let him live. I don't see how you could release him and keep your paladin status. Even returning him to the village to stand trial I would say could cause a fall, because a swift thrust of your sword is probably a lot more merciful than what the village would do.