RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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So, if they're underpowered (relative to the Tiefling), why would you want to play one?
How badly do you want to play one?
And, if the possibility presented itself, that you could gain the right to play such a character if you attended a near-by convention or large game-day at a local game store, would you be interested in attending in order to win that boon?
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So, if they're underpowered (relative to the Tiefling), why would you want to play one?
How badly do you want to play one?
And, if the possibility presented itself, that you could gain the right to play such a character if you attended a near-by convention or large game-day at a local game store, would you be interested in attending in order to win that boon?
I would absoultely want to play an elemental race, specifically the Undine because they got the coolest archetype in the ARG.
Con boons is not the point. I would go to a con without boons because right now I have 0 chance to play PF in person so I would jump at the chance.
The important part of the legalization of the Tiefling and Aasimar and Tengu is that it sets a possible precedent for rotating races into actual availability eventually.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Achija, you've just said that you'd be willing to attend a convention in order to play a character of those races.
It's in the interest of the Pathfinder Society Campaign Manager to get you to attend conventions and get to know the other PFS players in your area.
That's why the races require a boon from attending conventions, and why they're not open to everyone.
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While I can understand really wanting these races opened as they are definitely cool, they've only just released Tengu, Tieflings, and Aasimar for everyone. These were three of the earliest race boons available and it's been a good long while that they've been boon races until Season 4 opened them up.
In all likelihood the elemental blooded characters will eventually be released as playable for all, but for the time being I'd enjoy what we've got available now.
Personally, I'm all for keeping things a bit more restricted for the time being because as soon as these other races are opened up, we're going to see fewer of the core races because they're not as "special". Yes, I understand not everyone can make it to the cons to get these, and that not everywhere can manage to make a big enough event to get such boons happen in their area, but what would you propose the replacement boons be if they just opened this up right now?
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Please don't flood the game with races!
That's what happen when I played D&D 4ed and it got messy really fast.
People start playing only certain class/race combinations, cos they are just plain better (In terms of numbers) then other races.
It gets a little lame, when every "teleporter" build is an Eladrin (Cos they get racial Teleporting.)
Really don't want to see every "Fire Sorcerer" in PFS an Ifrit... (Or other elemental-bloodline combo.)
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Please don't flood the game with races!
That's what happen when I played D&D 4ed and it got messy really fast.People start playing only certain class/race combinations, cos they are just plain better (In terms of numbers) then other races.
It gets a little lame, when every "teleporter" build is an Eladrin (Cos they get racial Teleporting.)
Really don't want to see every "Fire Sorcerer" in PFS an Ifrit... (Or other elemental-bloodline combo.)
This is not something that I have seen in PFS. My experience has been that the player base is able to resist the temptation to do what you are decrying here.
Lets do a little experiment. Now that the Tiefling, Aasimar and Tengu are legal wait a little while and see if PFS is suddenly swimming in "special" races. I think that we can collectively resist the temptation.
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Please don't flood the game with races!
That's what happen when I played D&D 4ed and it got messy really fast.People start playing only certain class/race combinations, cos they are just plain better (In terms of numbers) then other races.
It gets a little lame, when every "teleporter" build is an Eladrin (Cos they get racial Teleporting.)
Really don't want to see every "Fire Sorcerer" in PFS an Ifrit... (Or other elemental-bloodline combo.)
This is not something that I have seen in PFS. My experience has been that the player base is able to resist the temptation to do what you are decrying here.
Lets do a little experiment. Now that the Tiefling, Aasimar and Tengu are legal wait a little while and see if PFS is suddenly swimming in "special" races. I think that we can collectively resist the temptation.
Sadly, that experience isn't necessarily one that we're all sharing. I've already noticed an influx of Aasimar characters because of how their favorable stats make optimizing so much easier.
Mind you, I don't mind Aasimar, personally, I'm just saying that I'm fairly certain a lot of places are going to experience a far higher number of these sorts of characters now that they're readily available.
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Please don't flood the game with races!
That's what happen when I played D&D 4ed and it got messy really fast.People start playing only certain class/race combinations, cos they are just plain better (In terms of numbers) then other races.
It gets a little lame, when every "teleporter" build is an Eladrin (Cos they get racial Teleporting.)
Really don't want to see every "Fire Sorcerer" in PFS an Ifrit... (Or other elemental-bloodline combo.)
This is not something that I have seen in PFS. My experience has been that the player base is able to resist the temptation to do what you are decrying here.
Lets do a little experiment. Now that the Tiefling, Aasimar and Tengu are legal wait a little while and see if PFS is suddenly swimming in "special" races. I think that we can collectively resist the temptation.
Which I am very glad to know/realize.
I had seen 1 of each of those 3 races in my few PFS games, but their race/class combination are quite varied.
The Tiefling is a Paladin! While the Tengu and Aasimar are a cleric and oracle respectively.
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Please don't flood the game with races!
That's what happen when I played D&D 4ed and it got messy really fast.People start playing only certain class/race combinations, cos they are just plain better (In terms of numbers) then other races.
It gets a little lame, when every "teleporter" build is an Eladrin (Cos they get racial Teleporting.)
Really don't want to see every "Fire Sorcerer" in PFS an Ifrit... (Or other elemental-bloodline combo.)
I was gonna say the same. :) I've opposed every race addition, be it boon or otherwise, but I'm only one man.
Why? I find all the extra races to ... 'destroy' the image of the Inner Sea Region, which suddenly hosts numerous special humanoids. Tieflings I can tolerate because of Cheliax, though.
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I agree that Elemental Races should be added to the game eventually (I don't think they pose a balance problem at all), but I also think they should only be given out as Racial Boons (and this is coming from someone who really doesn't get many chances to get Racial Boons at all). These races should be rare, and not filling up the PFS world. I still sorta question whether it was wise to open up Tengu, Aasamir, and Tieflings for /all/ players to play.
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So far, in my region, I have only seen two Aasimar characters out of a dozen total players in my burgeoning player base. So we're talking a sixth, or approximately 17 percent so far. I'm sure the numbers and percentages are even smaller in bigger areas.
The influx of new races is to be expected. They're new, they're shiny, on the surface they even look to be more powerful. But as with most new things, I am sure that it will calm down after a while. The great irony is that one of my players, who plays an Aasimar Bard, got his character to level 2 only to realize he doesn't like roleplaying that character, and is going to try something else instead--perhaps even one of the HEDGEHOG races.
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@Achija: Mechanical issues aside, how do you see these uncommon races being common members of the Pathfinder Society? In other words, how do they fit in with the campaign and Golarion world setting? We haven't seen any of them in any scenarios that I've run or played, and I've played or ran a good chunk of the available ones so far.
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Once again people cannot be happy with what they have. They just want more. I was happy with the core races and having alternate races as prizes. I hope it continues that way as well.
I second the motion.
We should of had the 1 exotic Race per player limit instituted as chronicle 04-RB like I said in a previous post, exclusive of convention boons.
This would have ended all the endless "I want a [insert race]" They would have gotten their 1 whatever and unless that character died or achieved 12th level that was it.
Hopefully we can retrograde for next season.
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@Achija: Mechanical issues aside, how do you see these uncommon races being common members of the Pathfinder Society? In other words, how do they fit in with the campaign and Golarion world setting? We haven't seen any of them in any scenarios that I've run or played, and I've played or ran a good chunk of the available ones so far.
They fit into Golarion just fine, thank you. In Tian Xia there are literally entire countries full of Aasimar, Tengu and Nagaji. There is a sizable Tiefling underclass in Cheliax.
The demographics of PFS are already wonked up compared with the demographics of Golarion and the demographics of the in game Pathfinder Society. For example, summoners are supposed to be the rarest character option on Golarion, but I see an awful lot of them in PFS. Also the vast majority of PAthfinders do not belong to a faction, but every PFS character does. You premise that a PFS character is an average Pathfinder is wrong, so I really don't see a problem with uncommon races.
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Not even a month after the three new exotic races were added and already there are posts about wanting more. This is exactly the slippery slope I wanted to avoid when the discussion about the opening up alternate races started back when the ARG was released.
Sometimes, it's tough being right all the time :P
To reiterate, the limitation of races fulfills the following:
1. Matches the rarity of finding X race in the Inner Sea region.
2. Provides a cheap way for Paizo to support local gaming conventions and boost attendance.
3. Gives something unique to the player, otherwise known as bragging rights.
#3 is debatable whether or not it's a 'good' thing, but it's common knowledge that role players like their characters to be more unique than the next guy at the table.
The fact is, there is no better alternative to race boons for conventions. Either some of the ideas posed were too powerful, or not big enough of a draw to make the cut. Race boons fill this niche perfectly and you won't dislodge this limitation from the games without some sort of paradigm shift.
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@Achija: Mechanical issues aside, how do you see these uncommon races being common members of the Pathfinder Society? In other words, how do they fit in with the campaign and Golarion world setting? We haven't seen any of them in any scenarios that I've run or played, and I've played or ran a good chunk of the available ones so far.They fit into Golarion just fine, thank you. In Tian Xia there are literally entire countries full of Aasimar, Tengu and Nagaji. There is a sizable Tiefling underclass in Cheliax.
The demographics of PFS are already wonked up compared with the demographics of Golarion and the demographics of the in game Pathfinder Society. For example, summoners are supposed to be the rarest character option on Golarion, but I see an awful lot of them in PFS. Also the vast majority of PAthfinders do not belong to a faction, but every PFS character does. You premise that a PFS character is an average Pathfinder is wrong, so I really don't see a problem with uncommon races.
Technically, it's correct. EVERY Pathfinder has a faction. The vast majority of them have the Grand Lodge faction.
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Technically, it's correct. EVERY Pathfinder has a faction. The vast majority of them have the Grand Lodge faction.@Achija: Mechanical issues aside, how do you see these uncommon races being common members of the Pathfinder Society? In other words, how do they fit in with the campaign and Golarion world setting? We haven't seen any of them in any scenarios that I've run or played, and I've played or ran a good chunk of the available ones so far.They fit into Golarion just fine, thank you. In Tian Xia there are literally entire countries full of Aasimar, Tengu and Nagaji. There is a sizable Tiefling underclass in Cheliax.
The demographics of PFS are already wonked up compared with the demographics of Golarion and the demographics of the in game Pathfinder Society. For example, summoners are supposed to be the rarest character option on Golarion, but I see an awful lot of them in PFS. Also the vast majority of PAthfinders do not belong to a faction, but every PFS character does. You premise that a PFS character is an average Pathfinder is wrong, so I really don't see a problem with uncommon races.
I remember the official word being that they don't participate in the faction conflict at all, as in they don't get asked to do faction missions at all.
That might have been before the Grand Lodge was a faction though, so you might be right as of a few years ago.
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Not even a month after the three new exotic races were added and already there are posts about wanting more. This is exactly the slippery slope I wanted to avoid when the discussion about the opening up alternate races started back when the ARG was released.
Sometimes, it's tough being right all the time :P
To reiterate, the limitation of races fulfills the following:
1. Matches the rarity of finding X race in the Inner Sea region.
2. Provides a cheap way for Paizo to support local gaming conventions and boost attendance.
3. Gives something unique to the player, otherwise known as bragging rights.#3 is debatable whether or not it's a 'good' thing, but it's common knowledge that role players like their characters to be more unique than the next guy at the table.
The fact is, there is no better alternative to race boons for conventions. Either some of the ideas posed were too powerful, or not big enough of a draw to make the cut. Race boons fill this niche perfectly and you won't dislodge this limitation from the games without some sort of paradigm shift.
3 is an argument against con boons. The stratification of PFS was one of the reasons behind the call for making races available, catalyzed by the ARG and all the race splatbooks.
I think that Mike addressed the problem in a perfectly equitable way. I agree that people should not be wanting new races again already. Presumably the beginning of each season is when new races will be made legal on a rotation. I think that Shivok's solution is better, but Mike made a very good call, as we have come to expect.
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I like my tiefling. She's new and shiny BUT I like my 'plain Jane' Varisian Gunslinger/Alchemist as much or more. Are there thing I want as special boons, yes. More races opened up aren't among them.
I think four seasons before rotating in some new fresh races is about right. I look forward to making a Kitsune rogue or bard in season 8 and have LOTS of ideas to play with till then involving nothing but core race types.
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Willing is different from able Master Mortika. If it was a large local game-day I could certainly attend the further out from blacksburg one goes the more difficult it would be for me to attend and once one goes beyond Roanoke VA it's all but impossible.
Organize a game day in your local area then and ask Mike Brock just what you need to do to get some special boons in your area. If you find getting to the bigger events an issue then simply just bring the events to you.
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Willing is different from able Master Mortika. If it was a large local game-day I could certainly attend the further out from blacksburg one goes the more difficult it would be for me to attend and once one goes beyond Roanoke VA it's all but impossible.Organize a game day in your local area then and ask Mike Brock just what you need to do to get some special boons in your area. If you find getting to the bigger events an issue then simply just bring the events to you.
Define 'Game Day' in size.. one of our organizers has been doing a once a month three table event (1 afternoon/2 evening) gig for 3 months now.. is that big.. or do we need to get bigger?
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Define 'Game Day' in size.. one of our organizers has been doing a once a month three table event (1 afternoon/2 evening) gig for 3 months now.. is that big.. or do we need to get bigger?
We get prize and/or boon support for events that seat 15 tables or more over the course of the event. If you can seat 3 tables for 5 slots, 5 tables for 3 slots or any other combination that adds up to 15 or more, then you qualify.
Mike may make exceptions based on the needs of the campaign in your area, but that's the guidelines we (Venture Officers) use for requesting support for conventions (or large gamedays).
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Define 'Game Day' in size.. one of our organizers has been doing a once a month three table event (1 afternoon/2 evening) gig for 3 months now.. is that big.. or do we need to get bigger?We get prize and/or boon support for events that seat 15 tables or more over the course of the event. If you can seat 3 tables for 5 slots, 5 tables for 3 slots or any other combination that adds up to 15 or more, then you qualify.
Mike may make exceptions based on the needs of the campaign in your area, but that's the guidelines we (Venture Officers) use for requesting support for conventions (or large gamedays).
There you go.. we'll just have to keep plugging. I really hope to one day fill ALL the tables at the local store on a Saturday.. (we got 2 more to go). Small goals for a small but growing group here in Jax.
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Willing is different from able Master Mortika. If it was a large local game-day I could certainly attend the further out from blacksburg one goes the more difficult it would be for me to attend and once one goes beyond Roanoke VA it's all but impossible.Organize a game day in your local area then and ask Mike Brock just what you need to do to get some special boons in your area. If you find getting to the bigger events an issue then simply just bring the events to you.
Heh. I am on hiatus as a local GM because I gave up on riding the bus to the game store (about an hour ride or more, on two buses) because I was seeing maybe one player. Given the local big con went defunct, I am fairly sure we ain't gonna be ablke to get up enough tables to make a legal event for Race for the Rune-Carved Key here. :(
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What source are you seeing this information from?
The PFSRD
Just for the record, Achija, I don't care one way or the other about races being further opened up.
Todd's point, though, is that there's very little in Golarion lore about Undines. The PFSRD is not an official document, in general. In this case, it's quoting the Advanced Race Guide, which is world-neutral and doesn't address Golarion specifically.
Todd is wondering if there's anything in the Pathfinder Chronicles/Campaign Setting or Player Companion lines that mention anything about Undines, because many times a race, archetype, or other game option is restricted is because it doesn't fit within the world of Golarion.
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Heh. I am on hiatus as a local GM because I gave up on riding the bus to the game store (about an hour ride or more, on two buses) because I was seeing maybe one player. Given the local big con went defunct, I am fairly sure we ain't gonna be ablke to get up enough tables to make a legal event for Race for the Rune-Carved Key here. :(
I mean this not to be a dick but to be brutally honest, this kind of thinking and behavior wont get a bigger event in the area. Initiative is rewarded and if you simply don't make the effort to build up the community then you wont hit that needed 15 table mark.
Reach out to your community. Maybe the day you played didn't work or maybe it was the location. Make that push and build up that community. Maybe you would even be rewarded for doing this.
Differing waves of race options seem to make more sense, depending on adventure region. For example, a season set in the Shackles including merfolk, undines and gillmen makes sense, but not for a story arc set in the lands of the Linnorm Kings.
If this were true, I would not want to bring my merfolk character to a convention game taking place in Qadira or something like that. I love the new races... provided they fit in the region or geography if the story somehow.
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Differing waves of race options seem to make more sense, depending on adventure region. For example, a season set in the Shackles including merfolk, undines and gillmen makes sense, but not for a story arc set in the lands of the Linnorm Kings.
If this were true, I would not want to bring my merfolk character to a convention game taking place in Qadira or something like that. I love the new races... provided they fit in the region or geography if the story somehow.
Dont' forget Tengu for the Shackle's region (where they are considered good luck). I agree that a good list of 'who lives where' could come in handy. Tengu are in Tian and the Shackles, and so on would do a LOT to help out with who and where.
