So this question came up during game play last night that erupted in a series of debates.
Do HJ's actually violate the Vow of Celibacy?
I think it would, unless he's giving said HJ, and is not enjoying himself... however some disagree.
I appreciate any feedback, or a ruling.
Thanks You
Yes, that would break the vow:
Vow of Celibacy: The monk must abstain from all sexual and intimate physical activity. A monk with this vow takes it to an extreme, refusing to even share a room with another person, or sleeping on the opposite side of a camp from other people in a group. A celibate monk is not allowed to touch others or have others touch him (including touch spells from allies). Striking enemies in battle or being struck by enemies is not prohibited, but the monk shuns all peaceful or pleasurable contact. A monk with this vow increases his ki pool by 1 ki point for every 5 monk levels (minimum +1).
Giving it to himself breaks the first sentence I bolded, while receiving one breaks both of the bolded sentences.
YES
Mr. X, a heterosexual man, can only become a priest if he makes a vow of celibacy – if he vows to remain unmarried to a woman.
With his priestly vow of celibacy per se he does not, as is frequently believed and wrongly reported, make a vow to refrain from sex. But since he vows to remain unmarried, he is required by his Catholic faith to refrain from sex. He must remain chaste – he cannot have sex because, according to his Catholic faith, sex outside of marriage is morally wrong.
ü Since he cannot have sex, he is taught by his Catholic faith that he should be modest in his relations with women - he should observe conventional and prudent proprieties in his speech, behavior and dress around women.
ü Since he should be prudent in his associations with women, he is instructed by his Catholic faith that he should avoid the temptations inherent in certain situations, relationships and behaviors – he should avoid the near occasions of sin with women.
ü Since he should avoid the near occasions of sin, he is taught by his Catholic faith that it would be wrong for him, without a compelling reason, to live with women, or to associate exclusively with women in situations outside of his work or the necessities of his ministry, or to develop particularly close, or personal, or secret, or intimate relationships with women. And of course it would be wrong for him to access pornography as a substitute for the sex he cannot have.
If he were to engage in such imprudent living arrangements, associations and behaviors, and if these improper situations were not kept wickedly secret, they would rightly create a scandal for the faithful who would, quite correctly, believe that such imprudent living arrangements, associations and behaviors would naturally lead to serious sins with women in thoughts, words and deeds. And thus these situations would seem to violate the intent and the spirit of his priestly vow of celibacy - to remain unmarried - to remain personally, emotionally and intimately un-associated with a woman.
Such imprudent living arrangements, associations and behaviors could eventually lead to the direct violation of his priestly vow of celibacy by leading to a scandalous and sinful marriage between the priest and "that woman." According to the canon law of the Church, such a marriage would not be recognized as a valid marriage, and the consequence to the priest would be an immediate removal from ecclesiastical office by virtue of the law itself (Canon 194).
So wait?
If he technically keeps this "wickedly secret" or someone did it and he wasn't aware of it...
Is it a vow violation?
Are, what if he is the individual giving it?
The Catholic vow as described by Zotpox isn't the same as the Pathfinder vow.
Keeping it secret won't help the monk, since he knows he violated the vow. If someone did it to him while he wasn't aware, but he later found out, he should probably atone to keep the benefits of the vow (at least that's what I would have done, if I had made such a vow and this happened to me).
Are, what if he is the individual giving it?
That would also violate both of the sentences I bolded. It's both an intimate physical activity, as well as touching another person.
So if he really didnt want to do it... and he gave it to said male NPC involved to save Korvosa.
Is it STILL a violation?
Will he have to atone?
Vow of Celibacy is one of the worst things a monk can do. by denying yourself access to touch spells. you are basically denying yourself the ability to be healed by magic and the ability to receive many excellent buffs due to your vow. the only thing that comes close is the vow of poverty. which is also known as the vow of put all your eggs in one basket.
What if it's done for medical purposes, under the watch of medical professionals?
That's neither sexual nor intimidate.
It would still be touching another person, which is also prohibited.
I have to amend an earlier statement: If the monk was unaware and not a willing participant, then he'd keep the vow as per the general vow rules. But in keeping with the spirit of the vow he should probably still pray for guidance.
So if he really didnt want to do it... and he gave it to said male NPC involved to save Korvosa.
Is it STILL a violation?
Will he have to atone?
Yes, and yes.
But that sounds like an extremely unlikely situation.
So if he really didnt want to do it... and he gave it to said male NPC involved to save Korvosa.
Is it STILL a violation?
Will he have to atone?
A celibate monk is not allowed to touch others or have others touch him.
So this question came up during game play last night that erupted in a series of debates.
Do HJ's actually violate the Vow of Celibacy?
I think it would, unless he's giving said HJ, and is not enjoying himself... however some disagree.
I appreciate any feedback, or a ruling.
Thanks You
How did this come up? What were you doing? I feel like there is a decent story behind this.
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I'm sorry, but this is the BEST thread I've read in weeks.
My wife's complete response: "Who the hell is he? Bill Clinton?"
How did this come up? What were you doing? I feel like there is a decent story behind this.So this question came up during game play last night that erupted in a series of debates.
Do HJ's actually violate the Vow of Celibacy?
I think it would, unless he's giving said HJ, and is not enjoying himself... however some disagree.
I appreciate any feedback, or a ruling.
Thanks You
Unlikely? You kidding me?
This came up several times in roughly 4 sessions...
All that can really be said is one of the NPC's has an excellent buff score... but the monk THINKS he's saving the city. Does is still require atonement?
How did this come up? What were you doing? I feel like there is a decent story behind this.So this question came up during game play last night that erupted in a series of debates.
Do HJ's actually violate the Vow of Celibacy?
I think it would, unless he's giving said HJ, and is not enjoying himself... however some disagree.
I appreciate any feedback, or a ruling.
Thanks You
Unlikely? You kidding me?
This came up several times in roughly 4 sessions...
All that can really be said is one of the NPC's has an excellent buff score... but the monk THINKS he's saving the city. Does is still require atonement?
Wow...
Otherwise yes giving hand jobs even for the sake of the world would violate the vow.
All that can really be said is one of the NPC's has an excellent buff score... but the monk THINKS he's saving the city. Does is still require atonement?
Excellent typo.
Problem with Vow of Celibacy is that it is fused with Vow of Chastity (even BoED didn't do that)... and the benefits are seriously weak for such a combined vow.
which is also known as the vow of put all your eggs in one basket.To be fair, it is more like taking all the eggs and trowing they through the window :)
VOC, you can still drink potions and use scrolls via UMD, but can't ever benefit from from spells that require you to be touched and can't have others use wands upon you. this screws you more than it helps because all non potion based healing comes from touch, whether by wand or hand.
VOP, you can't use consumable items, and may only have 1 item of value. which must be the focus for all of your magical properties. effectively, by piling all these powers on a single item, you are pouring extra resources that item and effectively putting all of your eggs into a single basket.
What about delivering touch spells through a weapon?
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The part about the Vow of Celibacy that actually trips me up is its ban on touching others to save their lives, whether it's to drag someone out of a burning building, catch someone that's falling, administer first aid, or even a comforting hand on the shoulder of the distraught and mourning.
These may be unintended consequences, but they're really jarring ones.
(honestly at a loss for words on the opening question)
I think we need some background on this scenario before this discussion goes any further.
Exactly what kind of PC is this who is administering the HJ.
Who is this NPC in question and are they some kind of pornomancer?
A Bluff that far-fetched easily garners the -10 bluff penalty...possibly the -20 for it being impossible. I'm curious exactly how this is supposed to save Korvosa.
I think we need some background on this scenario before this discussion goes any further.
Exactly what kind of PC is this who is administering the HJ.
Who is this NPC in question and are they some kind of pornomancer?
A Bluff that far-fetched easily garners the -10 bluff penalty...possibly the -20 for it being impossible. I'm curious exactly how this is supposed to save Korvosa.
** spoiler omitted **
I am guessing GM's houserules and modifications to the AP.
Unlikely? You kidding me?
This came up several times in roughly 4 sessions...
All that can really be said is one of the NPC's has an excellent buff score... but the monk THINKS he's saving the city. Does is still require atonement?
/makes note of ANOTHER Table I would never enjoy playing at....
The Bill Clinton reference is SPOT ON... Anything you couldn't convince your WIFE is not sexual... You can't convince the VOW that it isn't ;)
This has to be the best thread I've ever seen on these forums, hands down.
This has to be the best thread I've ever seen on these forums, hands down.
Agreed!
I would say the Monk needs to Atone... and wash their hands...
The part about the Vow of Celibacy that actually trips me up is its ban on touching others to save their lives, whether it's to drag someone out of a burning building, catch someone that's falling, administer first aid, or even a comforting hand on the shoulder of the distraught and mourning.
These may be unintended consequences, but they're really jarring ones.
(honestly at a loss for words on the opening question)
Well, it could make an interesting RP moment when you sacrifice something and heighten your selflessness. Or you can make it into a riddle of sorts when you try to drag wounded friend out tied to a rope or on a makeshift stretcher...
This has to be the best thread I've ever seen on these forums, hands down.
No not hands down. Hands off or you'll violate the vow.
No not hands down. Hands off or you'll violate the vow.This has to be the best thread I've ever seen on these forums, hands down.
That takes the cake... wait what do you mean the cake is a lie!
On a more serious Note... did this character dump WIS?
I think this vow isn't so strange.
I don't know if it really was that way in ancient Japan but acording to L5R there wans't any touching other people. (unless you were married and where alone at home, which this vow vorbids, too).
Medicine was mainly done by looking at someone and telling him what to do. There was no surgery.
Only people of lower class did touch other people or dead bodies.
Blood was bad too (unless in combat) to butchers where of the low class.
If you want to help someone you can always hand him a rope or the like. But no touching.
Behaving like that can be really cool RP wise.
One side question: If someone with this vow was a veterinarian and did a HJ to a male cow because he needed the result for breeding issues would that be ok? I guess for the vet that wouldn't be a sexual or intimate activity...
With some animales this kind of thing IS done in zoos and the like.
All I can think of is the BoEF...
As I understand it, it's touching dead bodies that is prohibited. Corpse-haulers were among the lowest of the low for this reason. Then came entertainers, prostitutes and merchants, because they did not produce anything of value. Higher up were the farmers and the craftsmen, then the various stripes of warriors, and finally the nobility at the top.
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So if you want to be truly humble, you must be the lowest of the low.
Touch all the corpses.
I say Booksy has the right idea with a conscience method. Though maybe make it a WIS(or whatever Stat is used for Ki) check.
And what book are the Vows from?
You can still accept infused extracts. No touching there.
spectral hand, metamagic rods of reach.
Many of the vows are quite good for Npcs anyway, including poverty and celibacy.
And what book are the Vows from?
Ultimate Magic.
In the monk section, because monks are the only ones who can be this devoted to a principle. As this thread has shown, the players of said monks are a different issue altogether.
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Sounds like a contrived situation by the DM to get the Monk to break his vow. That is only wrong on the DM's part if the they just whipped that out to be sick and twisted. However:
I have NPCs in my world that once they learn the characters weaknesses, they exploit it. If they know that the PCs gain some benefit or if they can use/put/allow others to come to harm to hinder/enrage/keep the PCs at home, they should use it. If the Bad Guy/Girl, BG, had an idea that the Monk was a Celibate, you be damn sure that would be an issue for the Monk.
BG's who are worth their salt know that outright killing is a waste of resources as it is usually an expensive task. Better solutions is give their enemies a taste of their power. In situations where "Do it or die", the object there is to show the party the BG is in charge and that they will only get nastier. Word to the Wise: Go away and realize you've been beaten and you've compromised your inner self and acquiesced to their Dominion.
But there are other things a BG can do. Hey what a better way to ingratiate a truly nasty BG to the party. On top of that, they know the BG doesn't play fair nor nice. Prepare to make compromises if you're going after them. The Party has a choice now, know that the BG will do everything in their power to weaken their powers, make them choose between the lesser of great evil or worse. The Party can then decide to risk their calling/powers/morality or simply go away with their tails between their legs.
What is the warning about "Staring into the Abyss"?
It would be a great reason why so many don't go out adventuring or at best semi-retire when they have families. No matter how bad you are, a 5 year old kid is a 5 year old kid. Threaten a person's family and you get their attention. Note the real power is in the threat, if one has to carry it out, prepare for no holds barred warfare. Be prepared to back it up and a suitable display, kidnapping a kid or two, even from a trusted adviser or highly placed servant can do the trick. Generally, the lower in station the horrid the death of the child but for a kid of a trusted adviser or better yet the PC's kid, having them come home safe and sound THIS TIME, works really well.
From a DM's perspective, what's the sense of allowing negative traits that increase the PC's power if there is no way to test the PCs? If a player takes a Trait or Feat that gives them a bonus in one area but hinders other areas, don't forget the exploit the weakness the Trait/Feat offers up.
The Vows are great, just try to keep them.
OBTW, "Yes", doesn't matter if the Monk thought it was the most disgusting thing around or secretly enjoyed it and wants to do it again, he broke his Vow. The excuse, "You made my character do it", rings hollow as the Monk made a choice. He took his self or others preservation over his Vow
And what book are the Vows from?Ultimate Magic.
In the monk section, because monks are the only ones who can be this devoted to a principle. As this thread has shown, the players of said monks are a different issue altogether.
Now I see them... Hmm weird...