Is Falconer Roc combo PFS legal?

[DJDesto]

Today I had a player who was a ranger with the Falconer archetype. They used that archetype to get a Roc animal companion at level 1, "At 1st level, a falconer earns the trust and companionship of a bird of prey.". We looked at the rules and I am torn. The Falconer first states "The bird can be of any type of large hunting or scavenging bird (even a vulture)." This would make you think that you could get the Bird, Roc and Giant Vulture animal companions as pets with the archetype. But looking further it states "but the falconer must take the bird animal companion". This now implies that you may ONLY take the bird, not the Roc or Vulture. I think the concept of the Roc works for this archetype, but I'm not sure if she can actually use this in a PFS game. I looked around on the forums and found this post about it, but that basically boils down to being up to the GM interpretation. That is never a fun place to be in PFS, and I didn't want to tell her that she couldn't or could without getting more input on it. Personally, I think it would be ok, but my opinion does not decide PFS legality. So, is there any place I could check for an "official ruling" or anyone we could ask?

[Nimon]

If it is possible, just make sure they are following the rules for a baby rock companion.They certainly do not get a CR 9 Gargantuan if thats what they were trying to sell.

[DJDesto]

Yea, I made sure they are using the baby roc, having a full roc would be breaking the rules for sure.

[drayen]

Odarshes wrote:

Today I had a player who was a ranger with the Falconer archetype. They used that archetype to get a Roc animal companion at level 1, "At 1st level, a falconer earns the trust and companionship of a bird of prey.". We looked at the rules and I am torn. The Falconer first states "The bird can be of any type of large hunting or scavenging bird (even a vulture)." This would make you think that you could get the Bird, Roc and Giant Vulture animal companions as pets with the archetype. But looking further it states "but the falconer must take the bird animal companion". This now implies that you may ONLY take the bird, not the Roc or Vulture. I think the concept of the Roc works for this archetype, but I'm not sure if she can actually use this in a PFS game. I looked around on the forums and found this post about it, but that basically boils down to being up to the GM interpretation. That is never a fun place to be in PFS, and I didn't want to tell her that she couldn't or could without getting more input on it. Personally, I think it would be ok, but my opinion does not decide PFS legality. So, is there any place I could check for an "official ruling" or anyone we could ask?

According to the Pathfinder Society FAQ, a ranger may only select animal companions from the list on page 66 of the core rulebook. Rangers do not normally get access to the animal companion lists in any of the three bestiaries.

EDIT: Good point about the Falconer archetype. Keep in mind that the UC Falconer points out large birds of prey or scavengers including, a vulture. A roc is an order of magnitude larger than any of these other birds. It is a great question for clarification, however; at this time a GM has the discretion to disallow it.

[Dragnmoon]

I can't answer The op, but I can comment on Marcus...

Marcus, some ranger archetypes open the list of ranger companions.

[DJDesto]

That ruling goes on to say "No additional companions are legal in Pathfinder Society Organized Play for Rangers except when granted from another legal source."

I don't know which book the Roc is in but if it's a "legal source" then does that count? If not then we got ourselves an answer :)

[Nimon]

The Roc is in the bestiary 1, and the Falconer I think is UC or APG, pretty sure its UC.

[Caderyn]

The archtype restricts you to the animal companion "bird" not any flying bird like animal companion that would normally be legal for a 1st level druid.

Relevant rules section

"This ability functions like the druid animal companion ability (which is part of the nature bond class feature), but the falconer must take the bird animal companion,"

note the bird animal companion has specific rules not associated with the Roc in anyway so the Roc is not a legal companion for a Falconer ranger (and the player should know this).

[drayen]

Marcus Mayes wrote:

EDIT: Good point about the Falconer archetype. Keep in mind that the UC Falconer points out large birds of prey or scavengers including, a vulture. A roc is an order of magnitude larger than any of these other birds. It is a great...

Got caught one minute outside of the edit window. Please disregard my edit above.

Caderyn is correct. The bird animal companion starts at small and the roc would start at medium. The ranger must adhere to the core rulebook for their choices. This keeps the roc an invalid choice for a ranger.

[Nimon]

It is unfortunate that we have to go to these lengths to prove someone wrong for something they probably knew was a grey area they wished to exploit. I could see if the player was a pirate type and wanted a parrot for flavor or something like that, but a Roc is simply someone wanting more power. Sad.

[DJDesto]

To the note about ranger animal companion selection:

*Additional Resources Specificly says - "Animal Companions: ankylosaurus, aurochs, brachiosaurus, dire bat, dire rat, dolphin, elasmosaurus, electric eel, elephant/mastodon, frog, goblin dog, hyena, monitor lizard, moray eel, octopus, orca, pteranodon, rhinoceros, roc, squid, stegosaurus, triceratops, and tyrannosaurus;"

* The faqs says - "No additional companions are legal in Pathfinder Society Organized Play for Rangers except when granted from another legal source."

*And the roc entry says - "Rocs taken as animal companions by druids or rangers are typically newly hatched birds"

*Leading me to believe that the bestiary allows rangers to a roc as a companion. Whether or not it is eligible for a falconer is a different story.

To the note about it being eligable for a falconer

*One one hand it says "The bird can be of any type of large hunting or scavenging bird (even a vulture)." Which would seem to allow Roc's.

*On the other (as Caderlyn pointed out) it says "but the falconer must take the bird animal companion".

To me this is unclear as it's contradicting itself. But I'm now leaning towards saying the Roc is not available to falconers.

Either way, this is a fairly new player and I know she's not trying to exploit anything or anyone. She plays for fun, but wants to have her Roc as a mount when she hit's 7th (Large size), when is why she is deadset on the roc.

[Tristram]

The thing about vague Animal Companions like "Bird" is that they are worded like that so you can pick a variety of creatures for it to be. (Eagle, Osprey, Falcon, Vulture, etc). It is by no mean a stretch to assume that this is what the designer meant by this description.

In a homebrew game I could see someone arguing for it, but in PFS the "falconer must take the bird animal companion" line is pretty cut and dry.

[Caderyn]

If its a PFS character its better for them if you tell them now its not a legal choice, as otherwise they will go to a big convention one day planning to ride on thier large animal companion they played 18 games to attain (levels 1-7) just to find out that the GM wont allow it as its not within the rules, thus possibly causing the player to be unable to contribute meaningfully to the scenario (as one would assume after 18 sessions they would start to rely on that AC).

Let them retain to a normal ranger (without the archtype as they are still level 1) they can take the roc at 4 (when rangers get an animal companion as its legal for normal rangers just not those with restricted AC lists) take boon companion at 5 (making your AC at your level) and it gets large size at 7 (which is what the player wants). This is completely rules legal so when they show up at the big con no one has to be the "bad guy" and tell them its not a legal build.

[Dragnmoon]

Caederyn, for PFS Roc is normally not legal for Ranger.

Only the following are normally legal for rangers in PFS unless an archetype gives them other choices

A ranger who selects an animal companion can choose from the following list: badger, bird, camel, cat (small), dire rat (see the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary), dog, horse, pony, snake (viper or constrictor), or wolf.

[Caderyn]

True, ok replace normal ranger in my earlier post with beast master from the APG, you still have a companion at ranger level -3 till you get boon companion, then it will be legal

Unlike a normal Ranger, a beast master’s choice of animal companion is not limited to a subset of all possibile animal companion choices—he may choose freely among all animal companion choices, just as a druid can.

[TGMaxMaxer]

However, Vulture is explicitly stated, and starts at small, then advances to large, which would work.

You're saying that using the stats for a small bird of prey at level 1, a medium roc at 4, and large advancement at 7, which are all within the rules is not legal?

Which is how it seemed the player was asking to do it?

I understand the reskin problem that has been shut down by the devs, but this player is asking to use animals that are all legal at each stage of character development, yet actually calling it a Roc the whole time is the only thing that makes it a problem?

[Brian Lefebvre]

Without a special boon expanding the animal companion selection, the only ranger archetype that can pick a roc as a companion is the beast master. Although the text for the falconer says any bird of prey, it then also says that the falconer must take the bird(eagle,hawk,owl) companion from the CRB. At level 4 you do not get to pick a new companion, your current companion gets boosted to normal starting stats.

This situation is a lot like the fluff text/mechanical rules text disconnect that the barbarian's titan mauler archetype has. The titan mauler says the mauler will take and use weapons from its fallen giant foes, but it offers no mechanical rules allowing it to ignore the light weapon>one handed>two handed>unwieldable progression rule. Sticking a medium titan mauler with a huge short sword doing greatsword damage at a -4 hit(before class ability modifiers) due to the incorrectly sized wielder.

[Caderyn]

However Falconers are limited to the "bird" animal companion, which overrides the fluff text around it as thats specific rules text singling out a specific type of AC and thus overriding the other possible options.

Having a Roc is only legal for the Beastmaster ranger (at least that I can find in the books I have), a Giant Vulture is not on the Falconers legal list, his list of available AC's includes exactly 1 animal which is the Bird AC, it can be written up as one of many predatory birds (including a normal sized vulture)

Giant Vultures start at Medium not Small. Once again reskinning is against the rules of PFS, especially when you try to ignore explicit class restrictions, as if you tried to bring said Roc to a Convention the GM would be required to inform you it isnt legal and prevent you from using it during the session which considering by the level that its a legal mount could be an issue for the viability of the character means the issue should be addressed as soon as possible. As what the player wants is legal with a different type of ranger, and thus we should encourage them to use the rules legal option to obtain the outcome they desire as then everyone wins, the player gets what they want out of thier PC, and no one has to be the Bad Guy and tell them that its not legal later on.

[DJDesto]

That makes sense. I'll tell her to re-tool to a beast master and take boon companion. Although, she may just take a level in druid.

This is what I've gather from this discussion as a re-cap:

*The falconer is restricted to the bird type. This means that the stat's must use the bird, but for fluff you can make the bird any type you desire (as long as you use the stats [and size] of the bird)

*A ranger cannot have a Roc as a companion unless they have the Beastmaster archetype. (Which according to additional resources, is PFS legal)

Thank you all for your responses!

[BigNorseWolf]

Whether somethinig is the "bird" bird or just a bird is a legitimate question, and not a bit of munchkining on the part of the player.

[Doomherald]

Quote:

Today I had a player who was a ranger with the Falconer archetype. They used that archetype to get a Roc animal companion at level 1, "At 1st level, a falconer earns the trust and companionship of a bird of prey.". We looked at the rules and I am torn. The Falconer first states "The bird can be of any type of large hunting or scavenging bird (even a vulture)." This would make you think that you could get the Bird, Roc and Giant Vulture animal companions as pets with the archetype. But looking further it states "but the falconer must take the bird animal companion". This now implies that you may ONLY take the bird, not the Roc or Vulture. I think the concept of the Roc works for this archetype, but I'm not sure if she can actually use this in a PFS game. I looked around on the forums and found this post about it, but that basically boils down to being up to the GM interpretation. That is never a fun place to be in PFS, and I didn't want to tell her that she couldn't or could without getting more input on it. Personally, I think it would be ok, but my opinion does not decide PFS legality. So, is there any place I could check for an "official ruling" or anyone we could ask?

This is ridiculous at this point, what the hell are you guys arguing?

"The bird can be of ANY TYPE of large hunting or scavenging bird (even a vulture)."
THIS CLEARLY defines what "The bird" ["but the falconer must take the bird animal companion"] be and even gave some examples (Thats the whole reason it is there).

[Seraphimpunk]

PFS FAQ goes into re-skinning for animal companions and mentions things like a lynx works as a "small cat" animal companion and is a valid way to role play your choices.

the question of whether the "bird" companion is referring only to the Bird one is legit. Its typically an Eagle, Hawk or Owl. Is the fluff text merely expanding Bird to cover ANY bird like an osprey , and a vulture, but you've got to use the Bird stats? In which case they can have a Condor or Roc, but they have a small one that uses the Bird stats , not the Roc stats.

Bird:

Bird (Eagle/Hawk/Owl)
Starting Statistics: Size Small; Speed 10 ft., fly 80 ft. (average); AC +1 natural armor; Attack bite (1d4), 2 talons (1d4); Ability Scores Str 10, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 6; Special Qualities low-light vision.

4th-Level Advancement: Ability Scores Str +2, Con +2.

or is it legitimately saying that you can choose any type of Bird as your animal companion?
that sounds like something that will fall under table / gm variation unless an faq or someone clarifies it. Its also more of a rules question than a PFS specific question, so asking for developer response / FAQ there could help.

And this isn't a question of , this is impossible in the game. If they had known that Falconer wouldn't work, they could have just chosen to be a Beast Master ranger, and gotten a Roc at 4th level. Falconer I hope just fits their creative vision of the character, and lets them have one at 1st level, with half as many hit points. Its a very toned down class feature.

roc:

Roc Companions
Starting Statistics: Size Medium; AC +5 natural armor; Speed 20 ft., fly 80 ft.; Attack 2 talons (1d4), bite (1d6); Ability Scores Str 12, Dex 19, Con 9, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 11; Special Qualities low-light vision.

7th-Level Advancement: Size Large; AC +3 natural armor; Attack 2 talons (1d6 plus grab), bite (1d8); Ability Scores Str +8, Dex –2, Con +4.

at first level they get a Medium Roc, with 2hp ( half the usual 9 from 2d8 HD, -2 for its low con score ). That they have to lug around for 3 levels. I doubt they'll be sending it into battle, so it will largely be a non-issue.

at 4th level as a Ranger it'll get its regular HP back, 7hp, and at 7th effective druid level ( aka probably 10th level for the ranger , barring Boon Companion ), the Roc will turn into a large creature instead of staying a Small bird the entire time.

At a point where a Ranger can have a Large Wolf at 10th level vs. a Large Roc, there's not a lot of difference between those two companion choices.

[LazarX]

Odarshes wrote:

That ruling goes on to say "No additional companions are legal in Pathfinder Society Organized Play for Rangers except when granted from another legal source."

I don't know which book the Roc is in but if it's a "legal source" then does that count? If not then we got ourselves an answer :)

There is a boon from completing a 3 part series

Spoiler:

"The Quest For Perfection" that gives an axebeak as an alternative mount and it has been ruled that the Falconer can replace his falcon with it.

[Seraphimpunk]

jinkies

[CRobledo]

Doomherald wrote:

This is ridiculous at this point, what the hell are you guys arguing?

"The bird can be of ANY TYPE of large hunting or scavenging bird (even a vulture)."
THIS CLEARLY defines what "The bird" ["but the falconer must take the bird animal companion"] be and even gave some examples (Thats the whole reason it is there).

Wait wait wait... are you surprised people are arguing on the internet?

[Doomherald]

Seraphimpunk wrote:

PFS FAQ goes into re-skinning for animal companions and mentions things like a lynx works as a "small cat" animal companion and is a valid way to role play your choices.

the question of whether the "bird" companion is referring only to the Bird one is legit. Its typically an Eagle, Hawk or Owl. Is the fluff text merely expanding Bird to cover ANY bird like an osprey , and a vulture, but you've got to use the Bird stats? In which case they can have a Condor or Roc, but they have a small one that uses the Bird stats , not the Roc stats.

** spoiler omitted **

or is it legitimately saying that you can choose any type of Bird as your animal companion?
that sounds like something that will fall under table / gm variation unless an faq or someone clarifies it. Its also more of a rules question than a PFS specific question, so asking for developer response / FAQ there could help.

And this isn't a question of , this is impossible in the game. If they had known that Falconer wouldn't work, they could have just chosen to be a Beast Master ranger, and gotten a Roc at 4th level. Falconer I hope just fits their creative vision of the character, and lets them have one at 1st level, with half as many hit points. Its a very toned down class feature.

** spoiler omitted **

at first level they get a Medium Roc, with 2hp ( half the...

read roc, it is a BIRD, explicitly stated: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/roc.html

Rocs are terrifying, legendary BIRDS renowned for their ability to carry off elephants and other big animals. A typical roc is 30 feet long from beak to tail, with an 80-foot wingspan and weight of up to 8,000 pounds. While their beaks are hooked like an eagle's and designed for slashing and tearing, most rocs prefer to seize prey in their massive, clawed talons and drop them from great heights before feasting on the shattered remains. For this reason, they are often followed by flocks of scavengers like rooks, buzzards, and eagles hoping to steal portions of the roc's messy meals. The roc generally ignores such opportunists, but if the scavengers don't take care, they nevertheless may find themselves accidentally consumed by the feeding roc.

Rocs are equally comfortable over land and sea. While they are capable of sleeping in the air as they soar solo across great ranges in search of food, they generally return home to the mountains to roost and procreate. They prefer rocky crags that are completely inaccessible by terrestrial means, building vast nests of tree trunks and ruined masonry. Once a decade, a mated pair lays a clutch of 3–5 eggs and raises its young. Outside of mating, rocs are extremely antisocial, and may attack others of their kind in vicious aerial battles in order to establish their territorial boundaries. When a nest contains eggs or chicks, parents trade off in their long-ranging flights, with one restricting its wanderings to within a 10-mile radius of the nest.

Rocs are most commonly white but can be a number of different colors, from dark brown or gold to black or blood red. Their massive feathers are highly prized, and their eggs even more so. Due to their scarcity and the high risk involved in harvesting them, a single man-sized roc egg can net 4,000 gp if transported to market undamaged. A roc can be trained as well as any other animal, but its great size makes this a daunting task for most would-be trainers of human size. The same isn't true for giants—particularly cloud and storm giants, who often use trained rocs as guardians for their lairs. Rocs are even large enough to serve as mounts for the most prestigious of giants.

Rocs taken as animal companions by druids or rangers are typically newly hatched birds—a baby roc is the size of a person and ready for flight and hunting within minutes of hatching. Unfortunately for druids seeking animal companions of legendary size, an animal companion roc is limited to Large size—still large enough for a Medium druid or ranger to use the flying beast as a mount.

[Benchak the Nightstalker]

I'm going to have to weigh in against the Roc on this one. The archetype definitely says you "must take the bird animal companion", not a bird animal companion, and the bird animal companion is the one labelled "bird" in the core rulebook.

The bit before that about what birds your companion can be is just flavor, allowing you to use the stats normally reserved for hawks, eagles, and owls for any sort of bird of prey. I guess yeah, it could be a roc, but it'll have to use the "bird" animal companion rules.

[Paz]

Doomherald wrote:

read roc, it is a BIRD, explicitly stated

The falconer doesn't get any old bird as an animal companion, it gets THE bird animal companion.

PRD wrote:

the falconer must take the bird animal companion

[Doomherald]

Paz wrote:

Doomherald wrote:

read roc, it is a BIRD, explicitly stated

The falconer doesn't get any old bird as an animal companion, it gets THE bird animal companion.

PRD wrote:

the falconer must take the bird animal companion

So eventhough it specifically says you can pick vulture (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/animal-companions#TOC-V ulture-Giant), youre saying it cannot.

Nit-picking over things like this as a DM is what makes your PCs have to make choices with their character to circumvent you to make the character they envisioned fleshed out. In this case, if you're going to give him so much hell, he just takes first level in druid, picks roc, the rest in ranger, which stacks. There ya go, youve forced him to multiclass around you to get the same result... ridiculous.

[Victor Zajic]

It doesn't say you can pick vulture. It says you have to use the bird animal companion, which is a very clearly defined thing.

[Doomherald]

Victor Zajic wrote:

It doesn't say you can pick vulture. It says you have to use the bird animal companion, which is a very clearly defined thing.

The Falconer first states "The bird can be of any type of large hunting or scavenging bird (even a vulture)."

[Paz]

Doomherald wrote:

So eventhough it specifically says you can pick vulture (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/animal-companions#TOC-V ulture-Giant), youre saying it cannot.

Eagle, hawk, owl, vulture, kite, buzzard, osprey, condor, falcon, whatever. It still uses the same statblock - that of the bird AC.

You've linked to the giant vulture, which is something else. Unless you think an ant and a giant ant are the same thing?

Quote:

Nit-picking over things like this as a DM

<nitpick>I'm a GM, not a DM.</nitpick>

Sorry, I couldn't resist...

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

Doomherald wrote:

Paz wrote:

Doomherald wrote:

read roc, it is a BIRD, explicitly stated

The falconer doesn't get any old bird as an animal companion, it gets THE bird animal companion.

PRD wrote:

the falconer must take the bird animal companion

So eventhough it specifically says you can pick vulture (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/animal-companions#TOC-V ulture-Giant), youre saying it cannot.

Nit-picking over things like this as a DM is what makes your PCs have to make choices with their character to circumvent you to make the character they envisioned fleshed out. In this case, if you're going to give him so much hell, he just takes first level in druid, picks roc, the rest in ranger, which stacks. There ya go, youve forced him to multiclass around you to get the same result... ridiculous.

Taking a level of Druid would definitely allow your two classes to stack for the hit dice and other statistics of your animal companion. But it does not expand the list of available animals for a class that has a restricted list.

[Doomherald]

Andrew Christian wrote:

Doomherald wrote:

Paz wrote:

Doomherald wrote:

read roc, it is a BIRD, explicitly stated

The falconer doesn't get any old bird as an animal companion, it gets THE bird animal companion.

PRD wrote:

the falconer must take the bird animal companion

So eventhough it specifically says you can pick vulture (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/animal-companions#TOC-V ulture-Giant), youre saying it cannot.

Nit-picking over things like this as a DM is what makes your PCs have to make choices with their character to circumvent you to make the character they envisioned fleshed out. In this case, if you're going to give him so much hell, he just takes first level in druid, picks roc, the rest in ranger, which stacks. There ya go, youve forced him to multiclass around you to get the same result... ridiculous.

Taking a level of Druid would definitely allow your two classes to stack for the hit dice and other statistics of your animal companion. But it does not expand the list of available animals for a class that has a restricted list.

It does not need to, your companion, acquired at lv1 as a druid will remain your companion, it will increase as your ranger levels at 2nd, 3rd, etc increase.

[Doomherald]

Paz wrote:

Doomherald wrote:

So eventhough it specifically says you can pick vulture (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/animal-companions#TOC-V ulture-Giant), youre saying it cannot.

Eagle, hawk, owl, vulture, kite, buzzard, osprey, condor, falcon, whatever. It still uses the same statblock - that of the bird AC.

You've linked to the giant vulture, which is something else. Unless you think an ant and a giant ant are the same thing?

Quote:

Nit-picking over things like this as a DM

<nitpick>I'm a GM, not a DM.</nitpick>

Sorry, I couldn't resist...

Well, if we want to be super RAW, like you suggest, NO companion can be utilized by the falconer, as it MUST BE LARGE. "Bird" is not on the list of LARGE animal companions.

The bird can be of any type of LARGE hunting or scavenging bird (even a vulture).

Bird (Eagle/Hawk/Owl)

Starting Statistics: Size SMALL; Speed 10 ft., fly 80 ft. (average); AC +1 natural armor; Attack bite (1d4), 2 talons (1d4); Ability Scores Str 10, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 6; Special Qualities low-light vision.

4th-Level Advancement: Ability Scores Str +2, Con +2.

Though, at lv 7, a Roc would be LARGE.

[Seraphimpunk]

* PFS has ruled in the strictest sense of stacking for animal companions. It would stack levels if you have the Bird companion, as it is on both the Ranger and Druid list.

* Large is not used in the game mechanic sense in the fluff text of the Falconer description. its used in the flavor sense of " a large bird ". In other words while a Bird companion is typically an Eagle, Owl or Hawk, thanks to the flavor text of Falconer, you can describe your Bird companion as a Vulture, osprey, or any other large bird of prey.

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

Doomherald wrote:

Andrew Christian wrote:

Doomherald wrote:

Paz wrote:

Doomherald wrote:

read roc, it is a BIRD, explicitly stated

The falconer doesn't get any old bird as an animal companion, it gets THE bird animal companion.

PRD wrote:

the falconer must take the bird animal companion

So eventhough it specifically says you can pick vulture (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/animal-companions#TOC-V ulture-Giant), youre saying it cannot.

Nit-picking over things like this as a DM is what makes your PCs have to make choices with their character to circumvent you to make the character they envisioned fleshed out. In this case, if you're going to give him so much hell, he just takes first level in druid, picks roc, the rest in ranger, which stacks. There ya go, youve forced him to multiclass around you to get the same result... ridiculous.

Taking a level of Druid would definitely allow your two classes to stack for the hit dice and other statistics of your animal companion. But it does not expand the list of available animals for a class that has a restricted list.

It does not need to, your companion, acquired at lv1 as a druid will remain your companion, it will increase as your ranger levels at 2nd, 3rd, etc increase.

Only if the animal is also on the Ranger List. If it can't be a Ranger Animal, then it won't advance.

[Benchak the Nightstalker]

Doomherald wrote:

Paz wrote:

Doomherald wrote:

read roc, it is a BIRD, explicitly stated

The falconer doesn't get any old bird as an animal companion, it gets THE bird animal companion.

PRD wrote:

the falconer must take the bird animal companion

So eventhough it specifically says you can pick vulture (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/animal-companions#TOC-V ulture-Giant), youre saying it cannot.

Nit-picking over things like this as a DM is what makes your PCs have to make choices with their character to circumvent you to make the character they envisioned fleshed out. In this case, if you're going to give him so much hell, he just takes first level in druid, picks roc, the rest in ranger, which stacks. There ya go, youve forced him to multiclass around you to get the same result... ridiculous.

It's worth remember also that the Giant Vulture appeared in Bestiary 3, which was released 5 months after Ultimate Combat and the Falconer came out.

So when the Falconer was being written, there was no Giant Vulture to take. There was no way to have a vulture animal companion. The author simply provided a way to take a vulture with the rules available--using the Bird Animal Companion.

[Seraphimpunk]

i just wanna cook and eat this whole thread. all these dead birds just makes my mouth water.

[Furious Kender]

Seraphimpunk wrote:

i just wanna cook and eat this whole thread. all these dead birds just makes my mouth water.

Dead vultures make your mouth water? And to think your picture looks human....

[Cheapy]

Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

Doomherald wrote:

Paz wrote:

Doomherald wrote:

read roc, it is a BIRD, explicitly stated

The falconer doesn't get any old bird as an animal companion, it gets THE bird animal companion.

PRD wrote:

the falconer must take the bird animal companion

So eventhough it specifically says you can pick vulture (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/animal-companions#TOC-V ulture-Giant), youre saying it cannot.

Nit-picking over things like this as a DM is what makes your PCs have to make choices with their character to circumvent you to make the character they envisioned fleshed out. In this case, if you're going to give him so much hell, he just takes first level in druid, picks roc, the rest in ranger, which stacks. There ya go, youve forced him to multiclass around you to get the same result... ridiculous.

It's worth remember also that the Giant Vulture appeared in Bestiary 3, which was released 5 months after Ultimate Combat and the Falconer came out.

So when the Falconer was being written, there was no Giant Vulture to take. There was no way to have a vulture animal companion. The author simply provided a way to take a vulture with the rules available--using the Bird Animal Companion.

Well that seems like some very important contextual information.

[Seraphimpunk]

Furious Kender wrote:

Seraphimpunk wrote:

i just wanna cook and eat this whole thread. all these dead birds just makes my mouth water.

Dead vultures make your mouth water? And to think your picture looks human....

fortunately my warped sense of humor has no outward manifestation.

[Ptolmaeus Arvenus]

The archetype refers to the bird animal companion as your only choice pretty clearly. Any other option for the advancement of the archetype is remarkably overpowered.

[Seraphimpunk]

well... not overpowered per se. but the abilities the archetype does grant? could've been better.
a Bird companion at 1 with full hp, and full progression as an effective druid level with your bird only, would have been a nice archetype by itself. Statting out a 1/2 hp Bird, its nearly useless anyhow. Its kind of no wonder why more hasn't been posted about the archetype given how kinda useless it is.

[Benchak the Nightstalker]

Seraphimpunk wrote:

well... not overpowered per se. but the abilities the archetype does grant? could've been better.

a Bird companion at 1 with full hp, and full progression as an effective druid level with your bird only, would have been a nice archetype by itself. Statting out a 1/2 hp Bird, its nearly useless anyhow. Its kind of no wonder why more hasn't been posted about the archetype given how kinda useless it is.

For what it's worth, I've been playing a Falconer in PFS for a while now (I think I'm 8th or 9th level?) and having a lot of fun.

The bird was a bit fragile until I hit 4th and got full hp, but he's been pretty useful ever since.

[Giltanis Redswift]

So fluff-wise I could call it a big *canary* as long as I use the "bird" stat block? Done.

I am Dances With Coyotes, a Shoanti of the Shiikirri-Quah, and this is my canary, Tweedie.

Gonna be tough finding a mini for this one. :)

[Paz]

PRD wrote:

At 1st level, a falconer earns the trust and companionship of a bird of prey. The bird can be of any type of large hunting or scavenging bird (even a vulture).

I'm not sure a canary fits that description...

[Jiggy]

Btw, I'm curious: what are all the PFS-legal means of getting a flying mount?

[James Risner]

Odarshes wrote:

The bird can be of any type of large hunting or scavenging bird (even a vulture)

but the falconer must take the bird animal companion

First line is flavor.

Second line is rule.

You must take the bird companion stats wise.
You may say it looks like anything including a Roc or Vulture, but mechanically it is a bird.

Jiggy wrote:

Btw, I'm curious: what are all the PFS-legal means of getting a flying mount?

Saber company marine?

[Rei]

Jiggy wrote:

Btw, I'm curious: what are all the PFS-legal means of getting a flying mount?

The pteranodon, dire bat, quetzalcoatlus, giant vulture, giant mantis, roc, and giant wasp all get big enough to ride at level 7 (except for the quetzalcoatlus, which decided to be weird and advance at level 9 unlike all the other animals) or are large enough to ride at level 1 by a small character. The dimorphodon and giant beetle become medium at levels 7 and 4 respectively.

Pretty sure all of those require you to be a druid, but if you really want to make a flying cavalier, I think there's one way of doing that: be a half-orc, take the Beast Rider feat (not the archetype, that doesn't allow flying mounts), take a pteranodon at level 7.

Not sure how body shape and all that affects taking exotic mounts, but since pteranodon is listed under the Beast Rider feat, I think that one at least should be kosher. The problem with almost all of the flying creatures is that they have very low strength scores before their advancements, so even a small character would likely struggle. Honestly, a summoner probably has the best chance of getting a flying mount.

An empyreal knight paladin's mount learns to fly at level 12, but that's a bit too late.