If a sorcerer casts spells innately, that is, they were born with magic, and a wizard had no magic and was forced to study to learn it...
...then how is it you can play a 1st-level wizard at all? Shouldn't all wizards be multiclassed characters?
The same can be said of any other class that requires extensive training.
Just some food for thought.
Discuss.
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The wizard only becomes a first level wizard AFTER years of training to master those few basic spells he knows: he's basically done high school and going on to university. A 1st level sorcerer represents someone who just began his career- he dropped out of elementary school.
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RD, I like to think that "extensive training" kind of converts that 1 level of commoner/expert to a real PC class. I also think of children as commoners, though, regardless of their backgrounds. At some point, the child either converts his/her commoner level or accepts the least of classes and carries on with life.
Just my made-up "how it works."
Some people just get things naturally, with no training at all. My wife is unbelievably good at understanding complex topics in chemistry without studying at all, while I have spent hours upon hours of studying the same topics to start to get close to the same level as her.
I view sorcs and wizards in a similar fashion.
Because LONG ago a sorceror with very little Charisma and a High IQ started trying to figure out more details on how the magic worked (he wanted to summon a succubus). He used the principals of spellcraft and experimented with it until he became a wizard. Then when he realized he coulf replicate this he founded an academy and taught others how to be wizards so all his nerd friends could have their own succubi liek the cool sorcerors. This laid the groundwork for your PC to start as a wizard without first taking a level of Sorceror.
That's a clever little excerpt from the unwritten book of history of arcane magic!
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If a sorcerer casts spells innately, that is, they were born with magic, and a wizard had no magic and was forced to study to learn it...
...then how is it you can play a 1st-level wizard at all? Shouldn't all wizards be multiclassed characters?
The same can be said of any other class that requires extensive training.
Just some food for thought.
Discuss.
That is akin to saying that it is surprising that I'm not a qualified bricklayer in addition to holding a degree in mathematics. Your very question baffles me.
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Fighters have to learn their trade too. As do Bards. And Clerics. Rogues too, at least most of them. Even Barbarians aren't born barbaric. Neither are Witches. Alchemists have to learn their trade too. As do Monks. And, eh... well, you get the idea.
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Fighters have to learn their trade too. As do Bards. And Clerics. Rogues too, at least most of them. Even Barbarians aren't born barbaric. Neither are Witches. Alchemists have to learn their trade too. As do Monks. And, eh... well, you get the idea.
You could even argue that sorcerers and oracles need to practice and learn a bit about themselves before being considered a 1st level PC-class character.
Fighters have to learn their trade too. As do Bards. And Clerics. Rogues too, at least most of them. Even Barbarians aren't born barbaric. Neither are Witches. Alchemists have to learn their trade too. As do Monks. And, eh... well, you get the idea.You could even argue that sorcerers and oracles need to practice and learn a bit about themselves before being considered a 1st level PC-class character.
This. I've always played it that sorcerers still have to train to refine their skills. They do so differently than wizards--they have to learn to focus the magical energies within themselves and learn to direct them.
This also explains why, like the wizard, they grow in power with time and experience, because they are always practicing and refining their skill, and learning how to do new things with it.
Most 1st level adventurers are assumed to have come of age and thus gone through whatever schooling they've needed to go through, whether learning which end of the sword to point at people or how to refine that mystic energy within you so you can turn it into a magic missile.
While there's no real mechanics for "0 level" in Pathfinder, I always kind of figure everyone starts off as a "0 level commoner" so to speak, and then when they come of age they gain a level in whatever class they more or less have trained to be.
Alternately, I at some point want to run a game where PCs start as 1st level NPC classes. When they level, their 1st level NPC class will gestalt with their 1st level PC class. From there they level normally as PCs, but that way their pre-adventuring day career does have some affect on things like what class skills they have and so on.
Alright, so a 1st-level wizard isn't a wizard until he spends a lifetime studying to be a wizard. So...
...what were they before that?
If I were to walk into a wizard's academy, what would all the students be? If I were to attack and attempt to kill a student before he was a 1st-level wizard, what would his stats be?
More food for thought.
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Alright, so a 1st-level wizard isn't a wizard until he spends a lifetime studying to be a wizard. So...
...what were they before that?
If I were to walk into a wizard's academy, what would all the students be? If I were to attack and attempt to kill a student before he was a 1st-level wizard, what would his stats be?
More food for thought.
Same exact question can be made for a sorcerer. What are that stats for a sorcerer that has only learned to cast one spell, and not the full allotment that a first level sorcerer gets? If a sorcerer is born with it, when do the magical energies bloom? Puberty? Some other point? If the sorcerer has to train to develop the spells, what is a half trained sorc?
Or does the sorc get all her spells at one exact moment in time with full knowledge of how to cast them? If that's the case, then why does practice and experience grant more spells?
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There are first level wizard's because you can't have higher level wizards without them.
It's like a level tax.
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Alright, so a 1st-level wizard isn't a wizard until he spends a lifetime studying to be a wizard. So...
...what were they before that?
If I were to walk into a wizard's academy, what would all the students be? If I were to attack and attempt to kill a student before he was a 1st-level wizard, what would his stats be?
More food for thought.
If I needed stats for apprentices, I would use stats for a 1st level adept and adjust as needed to make it more wizardy. Depending on the youth of the apprentices, I would apply the "young" template to them as well.
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Alright, so a 1st-level wizard isn't a wizard until he spends a lifetime studying to be a wizard. So...
...what were they before that?
....
Bullied? Persecuted? You know how it is with nerds when they're young.
If I needed stats for apprentices, I would use stats for a 1st level adept and adjust as needed to make it more wizardy. Depending on the youth of the apprentices, I would apply the "young" template to them as well.Alright, so a 1st-level wizard isn't a wizard until he spends a lifetime studying to be a wizard. So...
...what were they before that?
If I were to walk into a wizard's academy, what would all the students be? If I were to attack and attempt to kill a student before he was a 1st-level wizard, what would his stats be?
More food for thought.
Seriously, now.
DQ has it right. You could even start with stats for commoner, expert, or noble for a raw untutored apprentice. Those ability numbers are meant to be juggled a bit to suit special NPCs.
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Alright, so a 1st-level wizard isn't a wizard until he spends a lifetime studying to be a wizard. So...
...what were they before that?
If I were to walk into a wizard's academy, what would all the students be? If I were to attack and attempt to kill a student before he was a 1st-level wizard, what would his stats be?
More food for thought.
My choice would be crappy first level wizards with no or fewer spells, A bard wouldn't bother to record them in his tale. Or its up to the GM...Half levels are not in PF.
If I needed stats for apprentices, I would use stats for a 1st level adept and adjust as needed to make it more wizardy. Depending on the youth of the apprentices, I would apply the "young" template to them as well.Alright, so a 1st-level wizard isn't a wizard until he spends a lifetime studying to be a wizard. So...
...what were they before that?
If I were to walk into a wizard's academy, what would all the students be? If I were to attack and attempt to kill a student before he was a 1st-level wizard, what would his stats be?
More food for thought.
Seriously, now.
DQ has it right. You could even start with stats for commoner, expert, or noble for a raw untutored apprentice. Those ability numbers are meant to be juggled a bit to suit special NPCs.
Yep, here. I made an apprentice.
I’ve taken the Adept class and made a few changes to make it the Apprentice class. Apprentices cast arcane spells and their spell list is the sorcerer/wizard spell list (going up to 5th). Their casting stat is Intelligence. They have and must use spellbooks, and know 6 cantrips and 1 1st level spell.
Here is a statblock, to be used as stats for pre-wizard apprentices in a school of magic. I used the “Basic” NPC stat spread: 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, and 8. The human character gets a +2 to Int from the racial bonus. I then applied the young template (rebuild rules).
If I wanted to level this character later as he got older, I'd just use the same stats (updating to Heroic stats if need be) but rebuild as a Wizard, adding school, additional spells, etc. etc.
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Young Human Apprentice 1
Small Humanoid (Human) CR 1/4
AC 15 touch 15, flat footed 10 (10 + Dexterity +3 + Dodge +1 + Size +1)
HP 2 (1d6-2)
Fort -2; Ref +3; Will +2
Melee dagger -3 (1d4-3)
Ranged dagger +3 (1d4-3)
Apprentice spells (CL 1, Concentration +3)
Spells In Spellbook
Cantrips (Prepare and Cast 3 per day)
Arcane mark, detect magic, light, mending, prestidigitation, ray of Frost
1st Level Spells (Prepare and Cast 1 per day)
Shield
Str 5
Dex 16
Con 7
Int 15
Wis 10
Cha 8
BAB +0; CMB -4, CMD 12
Skills
Craft Alchemy 1 rank = +6
Knowledge Arcana 1 rank +6
Knowledge History 1 rank +6
Spellcraft 1 rank +6
Feats
Combat Casting, Dodge
Gear
Scholars Outfit, apprentice’s athame (dagger), spellbook, spell component pouch, scribe’s kit
Description
This wide eyed child wears an oversized black robe of a scholar, and speaks enthusiastically of the days he will become a "great adventurer!" and of indecision as to which wizard school he will specialize in. Surprisingly able to hold his own in spell duels, even with his limited spell repertoire, he would still fold if you sneezed on him too hard.
Notes: Sadly, I think he kind of just resembles a 1st level AD&D wizard. ;)
You could also always restrict feats and skills in some way if you wanted him to look even less experienced.
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That would require an "apprentice" based system, where you start your class at 0-level and slowing gain abilities until you officially reach level 1 and are the full fledged class. There are a couple third party folks that have put together some good systems for that. The only problem with them is that the 0-level, in theory, takes quite some time to finish, not just several weeks of adventuring. The make it more "real", there would need to be custom adventures that took place over several months while the skills were mastered. The system does not have anything in place mechanically for the "before I was a <some class>" That is simply hand-waved backstory.
As the system stands now, an apprentice at a wizard academy should simply be treated as a level 1 wizard. To show that lower status in a quick way, 1 less spell per level could be prepared and the DCs dropped by 1
Alright, so a 1st-level wizard isn't a wizard until he spends a lifetime studying to be a wizard. So...
...what were they before that?
If I were to walk into a wizard's academy, what would all the students be? If I were to attack and attempt to kill a student before he was a 1st-level wizard, what would his stats be?
More food for thought.
Alright, so a 1st-level wizard isn't a wizard until he spends a lifetime studying to be a wizard. So...
...what were they before that?
If I were to walk into a wizard's academy, what would all the students be? If I were to attack and attempt to kill a student before he was a 1st-level wizard, what would his stats be?
They were commoners, although specially gifted (ie: with the heroic stat array instead of the basic stat array).
The only difference between a commoner and a wizard is the spells and class skills. Everything else is the same (skill, HD, BAB). So, what the wizards learn at wizard academy is the use of spells and the use of bookly knowledge. In other words, they convert their 1 level of commoner into 1 level of wizard.
Does anyone remember that in Dragonlance, wizards up to level 4 still had the status of apprentices? They were required to pass the test at the towers to gain access to level 3 spells. Of course, that doesn't mean the low-level wizard was not allowed to go adventuring. And only relatively few wizards achieved level 5 or beyond, and were considered to be the elite.
Education starts early, maybe at age 10 or 12, when the child's talent is discovered. That talent does not mean that the child has any magical powers. IIRC, Raistlin was taken on because his high intellect (for his age), his quick fingers, and his rare prophetic dreams (which he inherited from his mother).
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Alright, so a 1st-level wizard isn't a wizard until he spends a lifetime studying to be a wizard. So...
...what were they before that?
Treasure hunters.
Why would wizard learn all of their craft at once and suddenly become powerful. Also why can't I be trianed for being a wizard at birth. If you were still in training oyu might be a kid with maybe d4 hit die smaller and maybe one rank in spellcraft and knowledge skills with maybe one being known enough to be a class skill. But how often does this come up in play. Not everything in universe is stated out yet. I haven't seen UE but I don't know if we had hardness for copper brass and other metals in case you need to sunder some of those.
Interestingly, it does not take very long to pick up the skills of a new class if you pick it up at 2nd level. In theory, you could begin play as an illiterate 15-19 year old 1st level human barbarian. Once you gain enough experience, you are suddenly a literate 15-19 year old barbarian 1/wizard 1 on your way to becoming an eldritch knight.
Weird cases like this are the primary reason that they should have gone with a single starting age roll for each race.
Creative Director
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Pathfinder doesn't do "0 level" stuff. The best way to simulate things like that, though, is to assume pre-class characters are either 1st level commoners, experts, or warriors. In the case of those who go on to become adventurers or whatever, they swap out their 1st level in that NPC class for a PC class as soon as they hit their starting age for that class.
On the other hand, in the Forgotten Realms, you could be an 8th level or so wizard and still be someone's apprentice.Does anyone remember that in Dragonlance, wizards up to level 4 still had the status of apprentices? They were required to pass the test at the towers to gain access to level 3 spells. Of course, that doesn't mean the low-level wizard was not allowed to go adventuring. And only relatively few wizards achieved level 5 or beyond, and were considered to be the elite.
In Dragonlance as well. You just didn't have the overall status as apprentice anymore, because you had access to High Sorcery.
Well the way I look at it this is apply this logic too a baby or child they are really nothing in this world.
You could called them commoner but then every class would have started as commoner and be a commoner lv 1 at least.
So pathfinder like any game system finds it pointless too have everyone have a meaningless lv and removes it.
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The wizard only becomes a first level wizard AFTER years of training to master those few basic spells he knows: he's basically done high school and going on to university. A 1st level sorcerer represents someone who just began his career- he dropped out of elementary school.
How do you explain a 5th level fighter all of a sudden multiclassing to become a wizard.
Things like this are best not asked...
The wizard only becomes a first level wizard AFTER years of training to master those few basic spells he knows: he's basically done high school and going on to university. A 1st level sorcerer represents someone who just began his career- he dropped out of elementary school.How do you explain a 5th level fighter all of a sudden multiclassing to become a wizard.
Things like this are best not asked...
no, that is exactly the thing best asked. That is for the player to come up with and to explain and justify. One should always seek to add to their story by explaining such things and building upon them, just not *handwave* *POOF!* "Looky ya'll, IMA WIZARD!!!!!!1!!!"
Alright, so a 1st-level wizard isn't a wizard until he spends a lifetime studying to be a wizard. So...
...what were they before that?
If I were to walk into a wizard's academy, what would all the students be? If I were to attack and attempt to kill a student before he was a 1st-level wizard, what would his stats be?
More food for thought.
I like to use NPC classes to represent PC-class users in-/pre-training.
A learning fighter, barbarian or other Full BAB character would be a warrior.
A divine caster in training would be an adept.
Skill monkeys like rogues or bards in training are experts.
As for wizards and other very study intensive classes as well as anyone who has not yet or only very recently started training for a class, they are commoners until told otherwise.
RD - Why don't you worry this much about situations that might actually occur?
It's an uncommon situation that hasn't been touched on. It's at least provided some interesting discussion. Granted, I'm not looking for a mechanic for this situation, but at least we're all talking about things that don't usually get talked about. As a bonus, at least it's not another "x" thread. (Pick your posion for that one.)
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I've also assumed that some NPC class levels can be converted over when one becomes a PC class. Experts can go on to become Rogues, Warriors to become Fighters, and Adepts to become Clerics or Wizards (using the idea from either the Eberron Campaign Setting or the Game Mechanics book Temple Quarter that there are both arcane and divine versions of 'Adepts').
So, a wizard's academy would have a bunch of kids, some with no magical powers yet at all (1 HD humanoids) and some with a 'class level' in 'Arcane Adept.' When they graduate, they can swap that out for a class level in Wizard.
But, really, it's best to not think too much about such things, for the same reason mentioned upthread, that training times (or classes that derive from special bloodlines) don't really acount for the 5th level Fighter who decides just now that he's taking his next level in Sorcerer or Wizard or Cleric or Monk.
Lots of picky details are handwaved, for ease of play, allowing a wizard, for instance, to learn two new spells when he 'levels up' even if he's out in the field at the time because 'he was studying them in his spare time, and just figured them out.' Anyone can learn a new feat or skill, or even a new language, without ever having previously trained in or even encountered that item.
"Ding! Level 3, and now I speak Terran!"
"The language of earth elementals? Have you ever met an earth elemental? Have you ever even *heard* Terran?"
In Terran "It's just a game, you should really just relax."
If a sorcerer casts spells innately, that is, they were born with magic, and a wizard had no magic and was forced to study to learn it...
...then how is it you can play a 1st-level wizard at all? Shouldn't all wizards be multiclassed characters?
The same can be said of any other class that requires extensive training.
Just some food for thought.
Discuss.
For the same reason you can read and write. Someone learned/invented how to do it and passed it on and it got popular.
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Alright, so a 1st-level wizard isn't a wizard until he spends a lifetime studying to be a wizard. So...
Who says it takes a lifetime to be a first level wizard?
Alright, so a 1st-level wizard isn't a wizard until he spends a lifetime studying to be a wizard. So...Who says it takes a lifetime to be a first level wizard?
This ^
The OP's initial argument and followup seem to have some basis in this assumption, which I believe is a false one. Even if it were true, you could be a 60 year old level 1 Adept, and as James Jacobs said, replace that with a level of Wizard.
I don't believe that any newborn babies have levels in anything other than baby, yes, even sorcerer babies. Sorcerers may not even know they're sorcerers until they've discovered their untapped innate abilities.
Conclusion: Considering whether or not I think the purpose of this thread was for trolling. Hmmm....