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Hail and well met fellow gamers.
I've put together a 6 part (and growing) series in which I teach a total noob, a totally stunning noob, all the ins and outs of tabletop gaming using the Pathfinder system. From basic stats and features, to spells, to an actual roleplaying session all major aspects of building a character are covered here.
Additionally on the channel you will find rules discussion, live gaming sessions and many other gaming related topics. I'd love to hear your feedback and have you contribute to the conversation we have going about all the wondrous aspects of our hobby.
Pathfinder Basics
Monday Night Gaming (Live Sessions)
Is It Legit? (Rules Discussion)
Many thanks for your time and happy gaming!
Andrew
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Hi Andrew,
I'm sure that your heart is in the right place, here, but I'm not sure that this "beautiful / totally stunning noob" angle is an approach that I'd consider when it comes to generating traffic for a Pathfinder video series.
As it stands, there are a lot of game tables and "friendly" local gaming stores out there that treat female players and visitors like something of a spectacle. There are any number of female gamers on the forums - our own Dark_Mistress is one - who could no doubt attest to the trend of the chest-high-stare, the creepy-cornering, and the blatant ogling that all too often follows our female counterparts' arrival at the local hobby gaming store.
If I were a woman considering joining a Pathfinder game - and I saw your thread - I wouldn't be able to help but wonder: "If I join a game, will my gender be made a spectacle of or a 'selling point' for the table, too? Would my fellow players feel obligated or entitled to point out or remark upon my appearance?"
I guess what I'm getting at is - you probably wouldn't make a point of specifying that you were "Teaching Pathfinder to a Gorgeous Guy" - even if that's what you were doing - because the gender and appearance of the "noob" in question generally don't seem to matter within the confines of our beloved hobby unless the aforementioned "noob" happens to be a lady.
Is that your fault? No! But it is an unfortunate truth, and it's something to consider.
Good luck with your series, Andrew, and happy gaming.
Daron Woodson
Abandoned Arts
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Thanks Abandoned Arts, you answered before I could. My reply would have been far more caustic since this topic is pretty sexist.
looks like a compliment/throw away line got blown out of proportion. The topic is "Hey I've got a web channel that teaches people how to play Pathfinder and roleplaying games in general" which happens to star a new player who happens to be female, who the OP highly compliments.
It's not "HEY WATCH ME TEACH DND TO THIS BIMBO WHILE SHE FLASHES HER CANS! GET YOUR CREDIT CARDS READY!"
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yukongil and LearnTheRules,
I know it's easy to call the push-back in respect to the original post "blown out proportion" or a case of "welcome to the internet," but a double-standard doesn't need to be an excessive injustice or a gravely offensive misstep in order to be a double-standard.
While you're probably intending to defuse the potential for an argumentative or explosive thread, what you're actually doing is downplaying this instance of "female gamers as a spectacle" as just a harmless drop in the ocean.
The problem with your no-doubt-well-intentioned idea that we ought to gloss this one over or "let it go" is that there wouldn't be an ocean of awkard and alienating obstacles for female gamers if we didn't let so many drops drip into it.
Pointing and "advertising" the very presence of an attractive female gamer who happens to take a seat at any given table doesn't do our male-dominated hobby any favors. It doesn't make us look mature or progressive - it makes us look like a bunch of creeps that feel the need to point and stare whenever a lady shows any interest in our game. It also absolutely is - "blown out of proportion" or not - a double-standard. So what if it's not the end of the world... a little bit unfair is still some degree of unfairness. A little bit offensive is still some degreee of offense. Quit dripping double-standard drops into the double-standard ocean.
Your mileage may vary, I suppose, but just because the video does not specifically refer to the lady in question as a spectacle (or address her "a bimbo" or reference her "cans") doesn't mean that she hasn't been portrayed as one in the original post. That may or may not bother the young woman in the video series, but it bothers me, and it harms the credibility of our hobby (and hobbies like ours - comics, film, video games, in particular).
Daron Woodson
Abandoned Arts
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Still, the criticism holds the answer.
Remove "to a beautiful girl" from the thread title.
There ought to be no difference in your approach based on gender or appearance.
Your biggest challenge has nothing to do with the game. You need to look at this person as a person, not an object and not on a pedestal. If you do that, maybe she'll even go out with you. ;)
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16
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Honestly, using the Beginner Box as the introduction would work best; at GenCon this year, I had several players at my tables who started off with PreGens used from the Beginner Box and enjoyed it so much they wanted more. If you're going for the noob angle (beautiful or otherwise), highlighting and using this product as the basis of the tutorial is suggested.
Still, the criticism holds the answer.
Remove "to a beautiful girl" from the thread title.
There ought to be no difference in your approach based on gender or appearance.
Your biggest challenge has nothing to do with the game. You need to look at this person as a person, not an object and not on a pedestal. If you do that, maybe she'll even go out with you. ;)
Yeah, this. Looks like the videos themselves are just called "Pathfinder Basics" and other neutral titles. That's all folks need to know.
Also, thanks Abandoned Arts for your diplomatic posts.
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I watched the videos. You can tell from the content, and Andrew's demeanor and happy go lucky approach to this stuff that he meant no offense. Like, at all.
Maybe watch the stuff and get a sense of who you're talking to/about to see if there's even a concern before jumping on the 'sexism' wagon.
Wow.
Yeah alright maybe I jumped the gun.
I was hot off a blatant actually-sexist post when I wrote all that. Mea cupla.
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Oh, I think it's clear that Andrew meant no offense. Meaning no offense doesn't necessarily constitute making no offense, however. Look at it however you like, but the fact remains that this trend is very tiresome and potentially alienating in the minds of many female gamers.
Attractive women do make for good marketing, but that doesn't make the use of sexist marketing any less of a double-standard - intended or not.
Daron Woodson
Abandoned Arts
Change it to "Teach a Blue Tentacled Dog Pathfinder " and I'm happy :)
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Attractive women do make for good marketing, but that doesn't make the use of sexist marketing any less of a double-standard - intended or not.
True, they can do. However, coming across as a complete tool to the people you are trying to market to usually negates the effect. The OP may wish to read up on the Ratner Effect.
10 to 1 that is his girlfriend. Regardless, its not dismissing anything because there is nothing to dismiss. It isn't a double standard, it isn't sexist, it isn't creepy, its paying a girl a compliment. I know as guys we're a little wierded out by it because nobody ever tells us how good we look or notices that we shaved our legs for our date, but in most social circles its perfectly acceptable and even *GASP* downright polite to pass on a nice compliment.
Also, white knighting is just as or even more demeaning than any percieved sexism the OP may have envoked.
Oh, I think it's clear that Andrew meant no offense. Meaning no offense doesn't necessarily constitute making no offense, however. Look at it however you like, but the fact remains that this trend is very tiresome and potentially alienating in the minds of many female gamers.
Attractive women do make for good marketing, but that doesn't make the use of sexist marketing any less of a double-standard - intended or not.
Daron Woodson
Abandoned Arts
As being offended is highly subjective, I think the best you can be expected to do is to mean no offense. As my sister says, "You can get glad the same way you got mad, all by yourself." I find it infuriating, but true.
So, is the OP saying that less attractive girls don't need to learn how to play?
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As it stands, there are a lot of game tables and "friendly" local gaming stores out there that treat female players and visitors like something of a spectacle. There are any number of female gamers on the forums - our own Dark_Mistress is one - who could no doubt attest to the trend of the chest-high-stare, the creepy-cornering, and the blatant ogling that all too often follows our female counterparts' arrival at the local hobby gaming store.
True enough, there is a whole thread about that kind of thing in I think Gamer Life forums.
I do agree I think using the beginners box would be better. I don't think the OP meant anything by the title, but I must admit I did a bit of a eye roll at reading the title. I watched a bit of the first one, I just don't have time right now to watch 40+ mins of them each. I looks from what I seen of it like it was well done though.
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Conversely, Daron, some people see offense in everything, and it waters down and desensitizes others to actual cases of sexism.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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As my sister says, "You can get glad the same way you got mad, all by yourself."
I'll make no comment right now on the topic of this thread, but I wanted to say I like this line. Heck, sounds like something I could picture about three of my psych professors from college saying.
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Imagine for a moment that you are significantly wealthy.
People treat you pretty well, but wherever you go, people comment about your wealth. Go to the gym? Gymgoers comment about your wealth. Go to lunch? Your friends comment about your wealth. Take up a hobby? Participants comment about your wealth.
Let's assume that you're a smart guy-or-gal. Let's assume that you're pretty skilled at several things. Fairly talented. Fairly well-balanced. So why does your wealth come up in contexts where these other qualities would have more significance?
Would you be annoyed by the attention? What does your wealth have to do with your fitness, or your lunch, or your hobby? Your money doesn't impact any of those things, so why is it a subject that everyone feels the need to address, and refer to, and allude to, whenever you approach an activity or a social gathering?
We have surely established that Andrew meant no harm, but that doesn't change the trend, or alleviate the wisdom in seeking change it by letting up on eye-rollers - to use Dark_Mistress' term - like this one.
There are no villains here - but there is an opportunity to acknowledge an annoying an alienating theme that plagues the "nerdier" hobby-circles (if not the whole of the Western world and beyond).
Best wishes and good gaming,
Daron Woodson
Abandoned Arts
As my sister says, "You can get glad the same way you got mad, all by yourself."I'll make no comment right now on the topic of this thread, but I wanted to say I like this line. Heck, sounds like something I could picture about three of my psych professors from college saying.
Yeah, you don't win often against a sibling 9 1/2 years older, but you come out of it with a few good lines.
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I guess what I'm getting at is - you probably wouldn't make a point of specifying that you were "Teaching Pathfinder to a Gorgeous Guy" - even if that's what you were doing - because the gender and appearance of the "noob" in question generally don't seem to matter within the confines of our beloved hobby unless the aforementioned "noob" happens to be a lady.
This is actually kind of genius. Gentlemen, I think we have finally found a way to attract more women to our hobby. Would any of you qualify as 'gorgeous' and consider partial nudity for a series of YouTube videos?
C'mon? Anybody? OK, not even gorgeous . . . just, like, slightly better looking than Seth Rogen?
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10 to 1 that is his girlfriend.That was my assumption, but it did seem like an unnecessary addition to the title. However getting upset about it is equally unnecessary.
This.
I love to tell my girlfriend she's attractive. I also tell the world. I once bragged about her in a FB status because I think getting to brag about her to your friends is one of the benefits to having an awesome girlfriend.
It isn't disrespecting her to make complimentary comments about her to others, and that seems to me what the OP was doing in this instance.
Frankly, while I understand the problems of reducing women to sex objects prevalent in the hobby, I think getting bent out of shape over any mention that an attractive woman is actually, well, attractive, goes too far in the other direction.
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Thanks DawnforgedCast!
Unlike the haters (above) I actually watched the videos. I played them today and think you're doing a fine job. I'd like to see you keep going into intermediate and advanced. As a GM of many years, a video/audio presentation reinforces my knowledge of the game, and addresses my preferred learning style as well.
If you keep the series for basics/beginners, I think that's cool as well. Hopefully a number of folks will appreciate you taking the time to film.
I also have the following feedback:
> You remained neutral, approachable, and inviting. Well done.
> You presented the content logically
> You selected good scenarios/examples as illustrations
> Your "first-person" style when speaking to someone else is a nice way for beginners to feel like the tutorial is for them. Seeing reactions and questions will be helpful for new Pathfinder RPG gamers
I started watching this morning when only three folks had posted... I'm glad to see more folks took a look. I've been meaning to do something like this for new gamers myself, and am glad to see you're doing it.
P.s. I enjoyed your tone, characterization, and friendlyness, especially without ego. I would recommend your series to someone just starting out. Thanks!
-Pax
Buh. Seconding that the original post is annoying.
Seconding that being "complimented" or singled out just for having the same interests as everyone else at the table is annoying.
Seconding that this thread makes me immediately have a negative opinion of the OP, despite the fact that the videos seem fine and he is probably a nice guy.
I have never seen a "Teaching a Hot Dude to Play Pathfinder" thread. Where is that? Seconding EntrerisShadow's idea.
Seconding that crap like this is why I hang out and "talk tabletop" on EnWorld (and other forums, like this one) instead of at my FLGS.
One vote in the "this is annoying and must stop" corner.
-Sarah McLean
PS: Oh, and yukongil? I get what you're saying, but there is a lot wrong with what is considered socially acceptable and polite.
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As a woman reading the OP's post, I took it as a gamer's attempt at flirting. I thought 'awww, how cute, he's hoping she'll read this.'. Then again I am a sucker.
Ha ha, someone can't even acknowledge beauty in a beginner anymore. Welcome to ridiculous town: where you must always watch what you say.
Well my bride is a beginner and she is beautiful too, so take that representatives of gender equality.
Good luck dawnforgedcast.
Still, the criticism holds the answer.
Remove "to a beautiful girl" from the thread title.
There ought to be no difference in your approach based on gender or appearance.
Your biggest challenge has nothing to do with the game. You need to look at this person as a person, not an object and not on a pedestal. If you do that, maybe she'll even go out with you. ;)
A person can indeed be beautiful. Praise isn't always objectification, whatever feminism might try to tell you (and I took units in feminism).
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So if someone tells me I'm good at math, should I get mad at them for reducing me to nothing more than a calculator? If they tell me I'm funny, should I insist they think of me as more than just a comedy routine? Why don't people get upset at these things?
Also, given that the OP is about Pathfinder, why did this get moved to Gamer Talk?
Well satirised there Dererk.
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While some people who are able to look at something objectively and see the videos are not sexist, many people due to past experiences will ignore all evidence in favor of what they want to see. <--Most of us have met this person in real life or even here on the site in a debate.
That means they will focus on the title. The people saying the title should be changed are not accusing the OP of being sexist. They are saying someone will see it that way, no matter how good his intentions are and complain about it, or at the least not even look at the video. Before I watched the video I was expecting to see something sexist, but I see a very laid back group instead. Not everyone is even going to go so far as to watch the video before throwing accusations at the OP. Yeah I know it does not make sense to say the video is about _____, without watching it, but that does not change anything.
I don't have to deal with the issues that many women have to deal with so I don't know how offensive the title might be. I only know that I have met enough people who like to make assumptions and/or that are so wilfully stubborn that no amount of reasoning or logic will get to them once they have made their minds up.
PS:Not taking sides, just providing perspective. :)
Just a reminder, I already retracted my crap upthread.
If you guys had seen the other post I just came from, you'd understand the freakout. Seriously, apologies for derailing things.
I hope the thread is not forever lost to kneejerk responses to my kneejerk response.
Teaching Pathfinder to a Wanton Harlot who is actually a Glammered Sheep
Bad jokes aside, did anyone follow the third link? Seemed like a rules question someone here could help with.
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I will never get this "wow! gamergirls exist" thing.
I play RPG since I was 7 I will be 30 on december, and since the age of 9 aside from some chapters of PFsociety I never had a single group without at least a girl in it (and do not get fooled, I am a guy)
and I am not talking about someone girlfriend.
to me gamer girls are pretty normal I actually know a couple of female rule lawyers.
(and yes, I know your next question, they all ranged between cute and gorgeous)
Just a reminder, I already retracted my crap upthread.
If you guys had seen the other post I just came from, you'd understand the freakout. Seriously, apologies for derailing things.
I hope the thread is not forever lost to kneejerk responses to my kneejerk response.
It's ok EL. I've commented in that thread too.
Added this thread to my "Advice" list. Commentary on the thread title aside, it looks to be a useful video series and a valid learning resource. Thanks for taking the time and effort to do this, DFC.
