Cutting of someone from the game because she don't know the rules well - aka when the technical side of the game go too far ?

[LearnTheRules]

Pretty much every guide to GMing ever tells you to take aside problem players after or between games and talk to them about what they feel are potential issues. It's as much a part of being a GM as running the game itself, and is vital when introducing new players, who may be anxious about bringing their problems to the GM, an excellent point made by people in this thread.

We can't make assumptions about either the GM or the girl in this scenario, so looking at it objectively we see what appears to be a problem player who happens to be new. Now I'm very good at remembering rpg systems and rules in general, but when I started learning 3.5 (my introduction to the d20 system and rpgs in general) I found it incredibly daunting. A new player may well be reluctant to open such a hefty tome as the pathfinder core rulebook, even though they need only learn a small fraction of it.

Your job as a GM is to find out why the player doesn't want to learn, so just try to get a private moment or even a facebook chat going in which you ask her about it. If she is put off by the size of the rulebook, maybe make a one page appendix of the most basic rolls; attack, saves, skill/ability checks etc (maybe even put in her own BAB, saves and so on as single numbers)... In games I've played with noobs, many of them are intimidated by the character sheet, which to the untrained eye is a confusing jumble of numbers. Most people starting off at 3.X can't level up by themselves, so again put aside some time to go through the process with her.

Now to end my tl:dr post (I am aware and truly sorry :P ), if she herself is unwilling to set aside some time to address these concerns then you have a problem on your hands, and should politely exempt her from the game unless she makes some sort of effort to learn the basics. Some people are not rules-savvy but they should still know a bare minimum of the system to keep the game flowing. It will not happen overnight but as long as she makes some attempt to pick up the basic rules then don't kick her from the game.

[Shadowwalker]

Its our job as experienced gamers to pass on our love of gaming to new players kicking her out the group wasnt cool. We are suppose to support newbies.

[Kobold Catgirl]

I'm pretty much agreeing with y'all now, but I'll do the devil's advocate thing so the argument will never be resolved.
;)
Firstly, Shadow, the problem is not that she's a newbie. The problem is that she won't learn the rules.

Second, to everyone, refusing to learn the rules when the GM requests it is simply disrespectful. It comes across as, "sorry, GM, got bigger things to do than make your job easier".

In light of the player being 'good' (I'm assuming that does refer to roleplaying), and in light of what I already believed, kicking her out is overreactish and a tad spiteful. Someone needs to talk to the GM and tell him to lighten up.

Someone also needs to talk to the player and explain the problem to her in a more polite and logical fashion than "you had your chance, hit the road".

[DrDeth]

Kobold Cleaver wrote:

I'm pretty much agreeing with y'all now, but I'll do the devil's advocate thing so the argument will never be resolved.

;)
Firstly, Shadow, the problem is not that she's a newbie. The problem is that she won't learn the rules.

Second, to everyone, refusing to learn the rules when the GM requests it is simply disrespectful. It comes across as, "sorry, GM, got bigger things to do than make your job easier".

I

That's not how I read the OP.

Otherwise, I agree.

[Kobold Catgirl]

Well, it was stated later that, when asked to read the rules, she said no. Is that what you're wondering? Wasn't in the OP, so no big.

Heck, I didn't read any of the second page, and I'm sure I'm missing a ton from there. So far, I don't think anybody's noticed I haven't got any clue what I'm talking about.

First post: Oct 17, 2007, 10:35 AM.
Nobody's noticed, right?
>_> <_<

[stringburka]

I think a gaming group should be like any social group - it should have a feeling of mutual support and friendship. Now, I know that is not the case in all places, but I wouldn't go to a game if I knew that these people could never be considered my "friends.

And I think that such a group _as a collective_ has a responsibility to make everyone feel comfortable in the situation. And I think the responsibility is greater with those with greater power (a cliché that fits very well here). Now, this shouldn't all be up to the DM even if ze's the person to exclude her - this should be up to all players, including both her and the DM, to discuss.

Unless someone is directly making someone else feel uncomfortable through sexism/racism/homo- or transphobia or insults or anything like that, I never think saying "you're not welcome here" is the right answer.

I think "I didn't feel like it" may very well be an answer that comes from feeling pressured. And someone feeling pressured IS a problem for the collective, just not that person. Gaming groups _often_ have quite a macho attitude, even if they don't see it themselves, and in such a situation, being both new and female can make one uncomfortable which leads to not being able to answer such things very well.

Regardless, a DM excluding someone alone isn't right. At tops he should be able to exclude himself and go start another game, but that's akin to me telling my beer gang that "Well, since Kim doesn't drink enough, I'm going to drop of this gang and start a new one. Someone willing to join is free to do so, except Kim."

Now, others may not view roleplaying groups the way I do, seeing them more as sports teams or whatever. That's up to them. But for me to be comfortable enough to do something as exposing as roleplaying, that would not work and I know many, many players who feel the same.

EDIT: I'm not saying that the answer is necessarily to play the campaign with her slowing you down, or that it is to make another campaign with easier focus. I'm saying that it's good to get better group dynamics so that even new and/or shy people feel like they can discuss such issues without being pressured socially.

[Grimmy]

I say grow the hobby! Anyone that wants to play gets to play!

Of course it's not that simple but you get the point I hope.

[eleclipse]

First of all thank you again for the opinions! It's alway helpfull to have more point of view as possibile in case like this.

To respond to some argument that were raised:

Anetra wrote:

The player said they "didn't feel like it," yes, but we don't know whether that was the honest truth or not. If I were sitting down in front of 9 of my friends and they Spanish Inquisition'd me demanding why I didn't do something,

Nobody expect the spanish inquisition!!!

Joke aside there wasn't any spanish inquisition and any attitude like that, ever, he just asked to her and me and another where present in another corner ot the room eating a pie.

1) "Didn't feel like" it is the accurate response, in italian was "non ho voglia" if any italian want to know

2) The gm is not awkard with girls, or at least i hope so for his girfriend

3) She don't have any learning disability at all (and i don't want to even start arguing on the fact that i think that 80% of the time i hear this is just poor teaching or other problem exused as a "illness"). She read TONS of book and she's actualy styding (tough not now since it's summer) to be a lawyer (and man, ironically the italian legislation is hardcore).

4) The new game is starting since the last campaign ended and was planned long before she joined us, everyone is exited about this.

5) She's not being discriminated as a girl, on the contraty i think that part of the problem is that the gm and the other, worried about scaring a new player build up some steam untill it was too much.

Moar data (sorry i dind't tough that they would be usefull if else i would have included them before):

- We are actually running two campaign (and some cthulhu one-shot run sometimes) and she play in both, in the second game i'm the master and luckly i'm more permissive (even tough i was also thinking of how to resolve the problem, i was thinking of organizig a "tutorial day" for her and the other new guy ) so if this thing go on she still get to play with me.

- I assure you that the gm is no jerk, it's just pissed of something he see (not without any reason at all) a lack of respect for his work. Not mature enough in this particular case maybe that i can concede.

Also when we where discussing if letting other people in (you know, 8 is a big number) he was the most supporting to let her play and i was the skeptical (you can also find a thread here were i ask advice to how to handle big group).

______________________________

Anyway i've talked to the dm, and will do again, now he "just" want to calmly tell her that the next game will be expecilly fast-paced and ruthless and that will need all the player to at least have the basic comprehension of the rule and pg to play. That if she won't we'll take a day or two of simulating combat and other thing to teach her, and of course we will give her advice. But that nobody will do the work for her (you know, "give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime" ). And then leave this up to this decision.

[CuttinCurt]

Aranna wrote:

ShinHakkaider, the GM is being a jerk by going behind her back to exclude her rather than having the balls to actually communicate with her outside the game and find out what her issues are. He certainly doesn't need to be her therapist, good grief, talk about going to extremes. But if the GM is unwilling to engage in dialog then he IS every bit as much at fault here as she is... No, even more at fault. Because she is new and may not have the confidence to talk about it yet on her own initiative. As the GM you should be regularly talking to your players about the game.

Not to say anything that isnt known throughout the gaming commmunity, but most introverted gm's avoid confrontation, even if they are men and supposedly have a set a balls.

[Elven_Blades]

Waruko wrote:

In my group we had a few people like this, they were significant others. They just wanted to be with their BF/GF's not play the game so they made no effort to actually learn the game. For the record one of them was my own. Which I found very rude to the people that actually took the time to learn them. It bogs down the game tremendously and that is disruptive. Again there is NOTHING wrong with slow learners, I do however find something grossly wrong with those that won't make the effort to learn.

This...

I also find it quite runs to not even bother learning the simple rules. I can totally understand wanting to spend time with your SO, but put the effort into learning.

I think the same goes for who the OP is talking about. You don't need to learn every single rule, but should at least be familiar with everything in combat section. That's really all you need to not slow the game down for everyone else, that's just one mere chapter. Aside from that, just be familiar with your class. Those 2 sections of the CRB are all you need to play the game as a beginner. About 45 minutes reading by my estimation.

Has the player in question at least read this much? If not even this much effort has been put in, I can understand kicking. Otherwise, I would cut her some slack but ask her to step it up a bit and work on gaining a firm grasp on the rules. Heck, I've been playing since 2000, and I still don't know all the rules (let alone how often I mix up rules between 3.x and PF)

[DrDeth]

So, OP, what was the end resolution?

[Tequila Sunrise]

eleclipse wrote:

Anyway i've talked to the dm, and will do again, now he "just" want to calmly tell her that the next game will be expecilly fast-paced and ruthless and that will need all the player to at least have the basic comprehension of the rule and pg to play. That if she won't we'll take a day or two of simulating combat and other thing to teach her, and of course we will give her advice. But that nobody will do the work for her (you know, "give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime" ). And then leave this up to this decision.

Sounds reasonable. I'd like to hear how this turned out as well.

[DeathQuaker]

eleclipse wrote:

Anyway i've talked to the dm, and will do again, now he "just" want to calmly tell her that the next game will be expecilly fast-paced and ruthless and that will need all the player to at least have the basic comprehension of the rule and pg to play. That if she won't we'll take a day or two of simulating combat and other thing to teach her, and of course we will give her advice. But that nobody will do the work for her (you know, "give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime" ). And then leave this up to this decision.

Sounds like a reasonable conversation to have and I hope it turned out well. Either way, if it's left up to the player, I think that is a nice way of going about it -- if she can't be bothered with learning the rules to the point she even refuses to update her character sheet properly, which is what I thought I read earlier in this thread, she herself won't want to play if it's made clear she will be expected to do her own work. Let us know what happened.

I discovered this thread late and just wanted to say that I think I was in a somewhat similar situation, and this thread's helped me.

Spoiler:

In mine, the player in question I had played in other games in other systems for years, and she had demonstrated ample ability to develop system mastery (one game we played had a complex magic system and she understood it better than the rest of us). I ran a D&D campaign in particular and over the course of nearly two years, she did the barest minimum possible to actually learn the rules. Worst, she played a spell caster, and often forgot how even the simplest spells or other class features worked--I don't expect anyone to memorize a spell list, but if you're playing a 10th level cleric and you still don't remember the size of dice used in a cure spell, something's up. To a degree I was willing to be patient with her since she's generally an enthusiastic player, but something wasn't gelling with her and the d20 system. She wasn't willing to back out because she didn't want to leave her friends or the opportunity for roleplaying, but as the campaign progressed it became clear she had no interest in the system. It was hard to notice at first, but at higher levels she wasn't understanding certain aspects of gameplay, slowing the game down to take forever to determine her actions in combat, and was in fact saying things like, "Yeah, I know I should have looked that up earlier, but I just didn't feel like it." Making matters worse, her husband was in the same game and kept telling her what to do so she wouldn't be forced to learn how things worked herself. Again, this is someone who I'd known a long time and SEEN her master other game systems--and was usually quite a crack decision maker without her husband on the scene--so something clearly was up. I did the best I could to talk to her at the time to ask her to make more of an effort, which helped, but I she also made it clearer to me she just didn't dig the rules very much. When I joined or ran other d20 games, I by a natural course of progression found a different group to play with anyway, so moved on playing without her without any kind of awkward kicking-out-of-game-ness (she's found another group of her own to play with as well, in systems she enjoys).

Puzzlingly, though, she has occasionally said to me she wants to play a game I run again, and is interested in trying Pathfinder (even though I've made it clear it is simply a revision of the rules we were playing before). I've honestly avoided the subject. This thread has helped me see the obvious solution -- tell her a reasonable willingness to learn the rules is expected and that she needs to be able to act in combat without hubby chiming in, and let her decide from there on her own.

[Aranna]

Unwillingness to update her sheet may not be "can't be bothered" DQ. I have been unable to update my own sheet before and I am extremely well versed in the rules. In 3.5e and Pathfinder by extension you need to plan almost your whole career ahead of time just to make sure you are still effective at higher levels. In my case I knew a LOT about who my character was and what she could do... but I hadn't decided where I wanted her to end yet and that was making it extremely hard to do her levels.

Still my above point is moot. This has probably resolved itself long ago. And the decision they made to leave the decision to learn in her hands is the best one. So hopefully this ended well.

[DeathQuaker]

Aranna, I am responding to something said much earlier in the thread, where IIRC the person in question downright refused to do anything with her own character sheet and insisted on someone else to doing all the work for her. That and your situation are not the same thing, by a long shot. Perhaps I misinterpreted the earlier description, but regardless I am talking about someone blatantly refusing to ever work on their sheet, not about someone who is reluctant to update before double checking their build.

[Drejk]

DeathQuaker wrote:

I discovered this thread late and just wanted to say that I think I was in a somewhat similar situation, and this thread's helped me.

Spoiler:

Was the system Mage (either incarnation) or Ars Magica? I have similar experience with decent Mage players having serious problems with d20 mechanics. They are so used to WYSIWYG dice paradigm of WoD mechanics that they have (greater than average) problems with keeping up with all the modifiers rolled.

Mage also makes players very spoiled when it comes to magic. Many of them have problems with using fixed magic creatively if they can't tailor the effect specifically to their desires...

[DeathQuaker]

Drejk wrote:

DeathQuaker wrote:

I discovered this thread late and just wanted to say that I think I was in a somewhat similar situation, and this thread's helped me.

** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:

It was Exalted's sorcery system, which is basically in a similar paradigm as Mage and Ars. And she had also played Mage the Ascension in the past (she and I met in a Mage game). So yes, that she was used to White Wolf and similar style systems were probably a big part of it. But I tried to make as clear as I could from the start though that the system was going to be quite different.

OTOH, my earliest gaming experiences, apart from simply reading old D&D books, were (old) World of Darkness as well--and at length for several years. And I love both it and d20, if for different reasons. But I agree you have to approach each with a very different mindset.

[Aranna]

My point DQ is that we shouldn't attach reasons to her without knowing her. For all we know her issue with updating might be very similar to mine. Maybe (since she has only played 12 sessions so far) she recognizes that she is clueless on pre-planning her career and wants one of the veteran players to handle her build. Maybe she should also tell that player that is the reason too (if that is the reason)... but this is all new to her and hopefully she will find her voice if given the chance to do so.

[DeathQuaker]

Aranna, you seem to be taking this personally. I am not intending any offense, and I am not attacking you. I based my comments on the ample information the OP provided in the thread, which I read in full before I commented. Based on what I felt was adequate information provided by the OP, I do not think the situation you describe is the situation the OP described. If you disagree, then we will have to agree to disagree and chalk it up to differences in interpretation.

I do not think you or any one else is a bad person for wanting to plan out a build. I don't think the person in question was a bad person, simply not suited to an intense style of RPG play.

I do think that if you're going to play a game, you need to be willing to learn the rules, do your best within your personal capabilities to do so, and maintain your character sheet within a reasonable period of time. Hopefully that expectation is not unreasonable.

At any rate, as you say, hopefully the situation is resolved.

[Aranna]

I am not taking offense.
I am just saying don't jump to conclusions.

She was described as a good player and fully involved during play.
That doesn't sound like the type who is "unwilling" to learn.

[Kobold Catgirl]

Didn't she say she "didn't want" to learn?

Quote:

The second time she asked a guy if he can (again) make the upgrade of her pg. The gm said that it was better for her to start doing them for herself (of course with advice) or else she will never learn and the answer was again that she didn't want to do it.

[Aranna]

I doubt she meant that literally... it makes no sense, and people make sense.

So the question someone should have asked her was "Why didn't she want to update her sheet? or Why didn't she want to learn?" She enjoys it... so what on earth is holding her back? It might be something simple and fixable. Why throw her away before knowing what kind of player she will become?

The answer may very well solve everyone's discomfort.

[Kobold Catgirl]

It makes sense. She didn't want to do it. Not that nonsensical. :P