Total Richard move. I’d drop the DM before I’d let him drop a player for this sort of thing.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, I have the same problem with all white people.Shrug sounds like my experience with girls joining my table top games. Although I only had that happened twice it has been disastrous. They never bother to learn even the most basic rules. They don't even try and roleplay, or even bring a character concept.
Now I don't even bother with inviting girls to join our table top games anymore.
Oh, yeah. And white girls? OMG, they really can't play. I feel you, man.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Oh, yeah. And white girls? OMG, they really can't play. I feel you, man.Yeah, I have the same problem with all white people.Shrug sounds like my experience with girls joining my table top games. Although I only had that happened twice it has been disastrous. They never bother to learn even the most basic rules. They don't even try and roleplay, or even bring a character concept.
Now I don't even bother with inviting girls to join our table top games anymore.
But can they jump?
I forgot to add the rules thing may not be an interest issue. Some people learn differently. I have a friend who teaches at a university, I would go to him for advice on about anything. He cannot play magic the gathering well at all, he forgets rules makes lots of play errors etc. He isn't stupid or not interested his mind just doest work well for the game.
That's why I said the key indicator for player interest is showing up. If she's paying attention and not texting or serving the web while the game is on then the rules knowledge shouldn't matter.
|
|
But can they jump?
Well...I can't.
:P
Rather just engaging in some amusing sarcasm, I figure offering some possibly useful advice might be welcome too:
Think of running two campaigns - or putting off the epic campaign a little longer so everyone can join in. If you run two campaigns, "The Godlike Epicness Campaign" and "A regular campaign", you can stagger them every other week. That way people can join the one they prefer, or both, as needed.
Maybe you guys can switch the GMing up a bit. Give someone new a chance to run some modules or something, and make it a relaxed game where everyone's learning together.
Ditto on Mojart's addendum. I've been playing D&D and other rpg systems for about 12 years (I'm pretty young, shush), DM a Pathfinder game, and currently play in 3 others. I know how to play this game, I know the rules, but that doesn't change the fact that I regularly look things up.
I am not an encyclopedia. I look up things like whether channeling provokes an AoO every time I play a cleric, look up spells when I cast them, look up the demoralize DC when it comes up.
Combat takes longer and longer as you go up in levels. This is just cold facts. Also, some people are decisive and some people are ... not. Some people feel less confidence in their decisions, or are accustomed to/expecting other players to butt in and tell them their action is a poor choice (it is really easy to fall into this trap as an experienced player trying to help!).
She is giving mixed signals and you need to find out why. Did you ask her why she doesn't want to learn the rules? From what was posted so far you have a girl who IS interested in the game and likes playing it. She isn't there for any dating thing. There has to be a reason she doesn't want to learn. Did anyone bother trying to find out why?
You also have a total jerk of a GM who is going out of his way to make a rules heavy campaign just to remove her rather than talk to her like she is a real person and find out first hand if she is a good match for the group and where to go from there if she isn't... you know as adults would. And I am NOT talking about updating sheets (I have been slow to do this myself sometimes) or unwillingness to discuss her character (which I don't get... I often go on for hours), although maybe the second part is because she is new and it still feels weird play acting. You all need to talk to her rather than coming up with a thinly veiled excuse to eject her. If she really is just there to hang out and isn't interested in the game at all then maybe it's best she find other activities to share with you all. BUT you won't know till you talk with her.
I forgot to add the rules thing may not be an interest issue. Some people learn differently. I have a friend who teaches at a university, I would go to him for advice on about anything. He cannot play magic the gathering well at all, he forgets rules makes lots of play errors etc. He isn't stupid or not interested his mind just doest work well for the game.
That's why I said the key indicator for player interest is showing up. If she's paying attention and not texting or serving the web while the game is on then the rules knowledge shouldn't matter.
I dont agree that just showing up is contribution enough from a player. If the dm took the time to engage her away from the table, to try and get some input from her, and she wasnt interested in responding I can understand the frustration. The dm does alot of work away from the table to make the game happen. It is reasonable to expect the players to do a little of the same in the same vein.
For instance, in my game, characters are created at home, and communicated to me by email. If you want to take an option outside my core assumption, you email me about it i review it and get back to you. We do this on our own time before a game starts, because we all have work, families, social obligations etc. We dont have 20 hours a week to game anymore (oh for highschool again). So when we actually all get together I want to sit down and start roleplaying and rolling dice.
If a player refuses to attempt that (notice i didnt say do it, I said attempt) they arent welcome in my game. If they dont respond to my emails and texts, they arent welcome in my game. That isnt exluding someone for the method by which they learn. Its about engagement of the player and caring enough to do a little work to get more accustomed with things.
It seems to me thats what the case is. If I ask a player to level up their character, and their response is I didnt feel like it, I see no reason for them to be in my game.
|
What Aranna said. Talk to her and find out why, she could have a learning disability. She might feel totally overwhelmed by the rules and doesn't want to make a mistake and look foolish, so she wants others to do it etc. There is a lot of reasons this could be happening other than she is lazy. Yes that is a possible reason to but if you don't talk to her and find out you will never know.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ditto on Mojart's addendum. I've been playing D&D and other rpg systems for about 12 years (I'm pretty young, shush), DM a Pathfinder game, and currently play in 3 others. I know how to play this game, I know the rules, but that doesn't change the fact that I regularly look things up.
I am not an encyclopedia. I look up things like whether channeling provokes an AoO every time I play a cleric, look up spells when I cast them, look up the demoralize DC when it comes up.
Combat takes longer and longer as you go up in levels. This is just cold facts. Also, some people are decisive and some people are ... not. Some people feel less confidence in their decisions, or are accustomed to/expecting other players to butt in and tell them their action is a poor choice (it is really easy to fall into this trap as an experienced player trying to help!).
I think you missed the part where the players response was she didnt feel like it. I dont care what your gender race or creed is, if you tell someone who likely spent hours of his free time to set up something fun for you is 'i didnt feel like it' you dont deserve the fun.
Yeah, I'm not an encyclopedia either and I pretty much do nothing BUT run games. I dont remember the last time that I played.
But if I know that I have an NPC with Spring Attack and/or Mobility then I sure as hell better familiarize myself with AOO rules. If I'm running an underwater combat I better know how Underwater combat affects the movement and attacks of everyone involved.
And I have to do this stuff for multiple monsters and NPC's AND sometimes the players.
A player (typically) only has ONE character to keep track of. And to know the basic of the mechanics of the game is not a whole lot to ask for.
Besides the OP has already said it's not like she's having trouble with these things which would be understandable and should elicit her fellow players and GM wanting to help, it that she shows no interest in wanting to learn or do these things for herself. I'm sorry but in that case just showing interest isn't enough and quite frankly I think the behavior is as dickish as some of you are claiming the DM to be in this case.
Again, a player who is having trouble SHOULD be helped and have the support of his/her community. A player who purposefully cant be bothered and just wants other people to do the heavy lifting for him or her after 3 months of play time doesn't deserve the same leeway or sympathy.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
She is giving mixed signals and you need to find out why. Did you ask her why she doesn't want to learn the rules? From what was posted so far you have a girl who IS interested in the game and likes playing it. She isn't there for any dating thing. There has to be a reason she doesn't want to learn. Did anyone bother trying to find out why?
You also have a total jerk of a GM who is going out of his way to make a rules heavy campaign just to remove her rather than talk to her like she is a real person and find out first hand if she is a good match for the group and where to go from there if she isn't... you know as adults would. And I am NOT talking about updating sheets (I have been slow to do this myself sometimes) or unwillingness to discuss her character (which I don't get... I often go on for hours), although maybe the second part is because she is new and it still feels weird play acting. You all need to talk to her rather than coming up with a thinly veiled excuse to eject her. If she really is just there to hang out and isn't interested in the game at all then maybe it's best she find other activities to share with you all. BUT you won't know till you talk with her.
Im sorry but since when is the DM/Gm her therapist? I see a tremendous amount of onus being placed on the GM here and NO responsibility leveled at the OTHER individual here. If she has an issue then it's not the GM's responsibility to probe and question to find out if there is something deeper. She needs to pull him/her aside and SAY SOMETHING.
Again, since when is the GM a therapist here? The Gm here is NOT a jerk. The Gm wants to have fun just like everyone else at that table but if someone isnt taking steps to learn the rules OR ask for help if there is a deeper issue it's the DM's fault? NO.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If its not too late already, I would put the choice in the girls hands. "This is going to be a tough, high-level campaign. Anyone who doesn't know the rules is going to slow the game down, and make it less fun for everybody. If you would like to play, you are welcome, but you must show your understanding of basic rules by creating your own character. If you are willing to do that, you are more than welcome to join us."
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
ShinHakkaider, the GM is being a jerk by going behind her back to exclude her rather than having the balls to actually communicate with her outside the game and find out what her issues are. He certainly doesn't need to be her therapist, good grief, talk about going to extremes. But if the GM is unwilling to engage in dialog then he IS every bit as much at fault here as she is... No, even more at fault. Because she is new and may not have the confidence to talk about it yet on her own initiative. As the GM you should be regularly talking to your players about the game.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Thanks to all for the advices :)
To give some more info of the problem in the dm (and some players)perspective is that being in a big group ( 8 ) if one don't know the rule well combat tend to be toooo long, and everything else too. To be completly honest i think that the problem of her being new is more heavy due to the fact that we are A LOT.
The core group (me and other 5) is composed of "veteran" and some of them are easily bored with a game that suit the need of someone starting .
And the major problem is that in the last campaign she left a poor inpression on the dm in a couple of occasion:
1-The first time when se entered the gm asked to talk to her about the char and what she wanted to do since we were half-campaign, we were going to met 7 days later. She didn't talk to him and never answered and seven day later at the game she said she didn't "feel like it" (and the master had to improvise).
2-The second time she asked a guy if he can (again) make the upgrade of her pg. The gm said that it was better for her to start doing them for herself (of course with advice) or else she will never learn and the answer was again that she dind't want to do it ...
So the problem is that it seem to be some sort of resistance in learning the basic rule or in putting some effort in the mechanical creation of the pg.
And honestly i don't understand why since she seem to enjoy herself and have fun everytime we play, and rules aside she's a nice player with good ideas and a very nice person to be with.
_________________
@Chengar Qordath: she's someway inbetween the two types
@sgtrocknroll: Sorry, Italy :P
It sounds to me like she's not interested in character creation, but rather just enjoys playing the game. That's not that uncommon to be honest. I've got a player who for the most part, I have built all their characters because they have no interest in learning the rules to build the character, they just want to sit down with a pre-built character and roleplay.
Also, someone mentioned laziness, and while that could be the case, understand that just because YOU get the rules so easily does not mean that everyone else does. I have a friend who I have been intermittently teaching how to build characters for about 6 months now and they still have problems with basic stuff like calculating attack bonuses and spell DC's. And this is a very smart person with no learning disabilities. Some things just do not click with certain people.
I am very anti-exclusion at my tables. The only thing I have ever turned someone away from is rude behavior and sexual harassment. At one point I ran a game for 4 months with 10 people. Yes, things took a long time, but everyone had a lot of fun, and that is the goal of Roleplaying.
I once had the opposite issue; one of my players was ragging on me (as DM) and the other players because of our less than perfect knowledge of the rules. It got to the point where none of the rest of us were having any fun, so I ended up cancelling the game. Later I started a new game without this player. I have one other player who is much more rules heavy, but he gets that I'm not that kind of DM, and so he's adjusted.
Some people just have different play-styles.
|
|
For someone like me, creating characters and optimizing them is where I have a lot of fun. I really like theory crafting and learning new builds. I currently have a thread going asking for help in learning the Gunslinger. And that's just what I enjoy.
In fact, I have two folders I call my "Stables." One contains a ton of pre-genned characters for the campaigns I am in, in case I get killed I can simply whip out a new character without wasting time rolling it up then and there.
The other houses a bunch of custom BBEGs for my campaigns in case I ever need an encounter on the fly.
But it's just as common, and probably more so, that people prefer to play the game and not worry about their character. I see plenty of people playing things like Weds Night Encounters in D&D who are more than happy to run Pre-mades. All they care about is the roleplaying.
|
|
I once had the opposite issue; one of my players was ragging on me (as DM) and the other players because of our less than perfect knowledge of the rules. It got to the point where none of the rest of us were having any fun, so I ended up cancelling the game. Later I started a new game without this player. I have one other player who is much more rules heavy, but he gets that I'm not that kind of DM, and so he's adjusted.
Some people just have different play-styles.
You're DM, the rule is whatever the f%#! you say it is. I make up rules on the fly almost every night that I run to create the game flow that I want. Don't argue with the DM. (especially when they have a J.D.)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think you missed the part where the players response was she didnt feel like it. I dont care what your gender race or creed is, if you tell someone who likely spent hours of his free time to set up something fun for you is 'i didnt feel like it' you dont deserve the fun.Ditto on Mojart's addendum. I've been playing D&D and other rpg systems for about 12 years (I'm pretty young, shush), DM a Pathfinder game, and currently play in 3 others. I know how to play this game, I know the rules, but that doesn't change the fact that I regularly look things up.
I am not an encyclopedia. I look up things like whether channeling provokes an AoO every time I play a cleric, look up spells when I cast them, look up the demoralize DC when it comes up.
Combat takes longer and longer as you go up in levels. This is just cold facts. Also, some people are decisive and some people are ... not. Some people feel less confidence in their decisions, or are accustomed to/expecting other players to butt in and tell them their action is a poor choice (it is really easy to fall into this trap as an experienced player trying to help!).
The player said they "didn't feel like it," yes, but we don't know whether that was the honest truth or not. If I were sitting down in front of 9 of my friends and they Spanish Inquisition'd me demanding why I didn't do something, you better believe my answer would be some meek, reticent version of "I don't know," including many things that could have been interpreted by them to mean "I guess she just didn't feel like it."
Maybe I felt overwhelmed by the idea.
Maybe I felt embarrassed about it.
Maybe I couldn't come up with a character idea I felt was "good enough."
She clearly "feels like" showing up for the game. We have been told that she doesn't "feel ilke" doing three things: sharing a characters backstory, updating her own character sheet, and "learning the rules" (vague).
I don't weasel out of doing these things under the premise of "Not feeling like it," but -- important part -- I've been playing for 12 years. This person has been playing for 3 months, and may not have knowledge from other RPGs or stat-based games carrying over to help them pick it all up quickly.
Let me say this again: Three months. 3. I mean, how often does this group even meet? If they meet once weekly, that's a maximum of 12 sessions, assuming none of them have been cancelled.
You really want to kick someone out of a game because they're still being reticent with the rules when their total experience with the hobby is, at most, 12 sessions?
I think you missed the part where the players response was she didnt feel like it. I dont care what your gender race or creed is, if you tell someone who likely spent hours of his free time to set up something fun for you is 'i didnt feel like it' you dont deserve the fun.Ditto on Mojart's addendum. I've been playing D&D and other rpg systems for about 12 years (I'm pretty young, shush), DM a Pathfinder game, and currently play in 3 others. I know how to play this game, I know the rules, but that doesn't change the fact that I regularly look things up.
I am not an encyclopedia. I look up things like whether channeling provokes an AoO every time I play a cleric, look up spells when I cast them, look up the demoralize DC when it comes up.
Combat takes longer and longer as you go up in levels. This is just cold facts. Also, some people are decisive and some people are ... not. Some people feel less confidence in their decisions, or are accustomed to/expecting other players to butt in and tell them their action is a poor choice (it is really easy to fall into this trap as an experienced player trying to help!).
The player said they "didn't feel like it," yes, but we don't know whether that was the honest truth or not. If I were sitting down in front of 9 of my friends and they Spanish Inquisition'd me demanding why I didn't do something, you better believe my answer would be some meek, reticent version of "I don't know," including many things that could have been interpreted by them to mean "I guess she just didn't feel like it."
Maybe I felt overwhelmed.
Maybe I felt embarrassed.
Maybe I couldn't come up with a character idea I felt was "good enough."
Maybe I couldn't come up with a character idea that I felt my friends would like.She clearly "feels like" showing up for the game. We have been told that she doesn't "feel ilke" doing three things: sharing a characters backstory, updating her own character sheet, and "learning the rules" (vague).
I don't weasel out of doing these things under the premise of "Not feeling like it," but -- important part -- I've been playing for 12 years. This person has been playing for 3 months, and may not have knowledge from other RPGs or stat-based games carrying over to help them pick it all up quickly.
Let me say this again: Three months. 3. I mean, how often does this group even meet? If they meet once weekly, that's a maximum of 12 sessions, assuming none of them have been cancelled.
You really want to kick someone out of a game because they're still being reticent with the rules when their total experience with the hobby is 12 sessions? :<
Ofcourse. And in that case, the appropriate thing for her to have done is say 'Hey I was having alot of trouble with this, I really dont understand all of it. Could we maybe sit down on (insert day or time for meeting or phone call here) and go over it?'.
Its perfectly fine to not be able to build a character on your own at first. Heck you might never be able to really do it without some help and thats ok. But she also bears the responsibility for expressing to (presummably) her friend that she is interested in learning but needs help. Saying 'I didnt feel like it' is quite literally an unacceptable response if she is over the age of 12.
Edit for your edit:
Again, its not about picking it up quickly. Its about showing that you are willing to try to learn. Maybe she was indeed just overwhelmed and couldnt say what she really meant, but thats her responsibility not the GMs. Gaming experience or no, you are responsible for communicating your feelings to those you socialize with if you expect to have them taken into consideration. If you cant do that, that isnt the fault of the person who doesn't consider them.
"I didnt feel like it" whether intentional or not is blatently rude. If I invited you to a potluck, and you said you were brining the main course, and you showed up that day without it. "I didnt feel like it" is not an acceptable thing to say. Even if you meant 'I burnt the roast and was really embarrased about it so i didnt bring anything' or 'My little brother needed a ride to the emergency room so I couldnt do it', or 'Honestly I cant cook, i dont know what the hell i was thinking Im really sorry about not brinigng it let me order a pizza to make up for it', what you actually say is your responsibility, and that is what people have to go on. All those other things, perfectly ok, we'll laugh it off and figure something out. But saying you didnt feel like it, even if it isn't true, is insulting to the people that have put in work for this to be a fun evening.
Ofcourse. And in that case, the appropriate thing for her to have done is say 'Hey I was having alot of trouble with this, I really dont understand all of it. Could we maybe sit down on (insert day or time for meeting or phone call here) and go over it?'.
Its perfectly fine to not be able to build a character on your own at first. Heck you might never be able to really do it without some help and thats ok. But she also bears the responsibility for expressing to (presummably) her friend that she is interested in learning but needs help. Saying 'I didnt feel like it' is quite literally an...
Absolutely, I agree that her behaviour lacks maturity and that she is not handling this situation in a good way. But I also feel that the GM, based on what I know from this thread, is behaving similarly.
Maybe I'm wrong, maybe he has privately spoken with this player and they mutually agreed that the best thing would be for her to leave the game. The OP doesn't indicate that being the case, though, so I can't assume that it happened.
All I know is that the DM is kicking this player out of the game when, after 3 months, he doesn't feel she's learned the rules well, or quickly, enough, and that she said something 3 months ago that OP remembers as being along the lines of "I didn't feel like it" in response to the question of why she didn't contact the GM to speak in more detail about her character.
Edit for your edit to my edit (so many edits!)
I agree, but I'm to understand that this person is their friend. Being friends with someone (in my opinion) means that you don't say 'not my problem' to their weirdness and shut the door. Sure, yes, definitely her behaviour has been kind of rude, but ... she's their friend? I'm not going to call judgement on it. I'm just going to advise as best I can on a situation where someone's friend is being weird about learning a game's rules, even though they enjoy playing it.
If she isn't interested in learning these rules but likes to RP I would suggest a different game with less crunch.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If she isn't interested in learning these rules but likes to RP I would suggest a different game with less crunch.
I actuall suggested that up thread. But I get the feeling that solution is going to be ignored in favor or further arguing and blaming the DM.
If she isn't interested in learning these rules but likes to RP I would suggest a different game with less crunch.I actuall suggested that up thread. But I get the feeling that solution is going to be ignored in favor or further arguing and blaming the DM.
Ah I missed that. I admit the problem with our idea is getting group to maybe play more than one system but its just a fact not everyone is good at all games. I know someone that is GREAT to play Dogs in the Vineyard with but they are awful D&D/PF players. So we don't invite them to D&D but they are a constant in any heavy narrative games we play.
It's a little early to be considering what other games she should be in. Really is it THAT hard to just talk to her first before making any drastic decisions?
|
It sounds to me like she likes the roleplaying more then rulesplaying. This is a problem I have, the only group I can play with is very rules intensive, and I highly dislike rules intensive. The only reason I play with the group is that I already have a good handle on the rules and I am still searching for a group that better matches my play style, after two years with this group.
So maybe she finds the rules are to complicated for what she would like and plays with this group for lack of one that fits her interest and/or because it is her friends group. She may also be avoiding telling you that she thinks you guys are too rules intensive because she doesn't want to sound rude or hurt anybody's feelings.
edit, if the above is her reasoning, she may simply find it easier for play to let others handle the character making and such, to avoid rules debates and complaints about weak characters. (A problem I am constantly fighting) She may see it as the best way to make everyone happy, she won't have to worry about rules and she gets to play with rules intensive players.
It's a little early to be considering what other games she should be in. Really is it THAT hard to just talk to her first before making any drastic decisions?
What's so drastic about playing another game? Will she go into gamer shock? Oh noes! Extra options/advice are extra. We don't know what the will happen but its best to plan ahead. Or in my opinion think on what went wrong to start with. As maybe PF just isn't her game. Its nothing to be ashamed of.
The problem I have with this is that I've dealt with similar players. Players who refuse to learn the rules, even though they've had a lot of time to. The blame is on both sides.
The GM is frustrated because the player won't try to meet him/her halfway. The GM has asked the player to try to learn the rules, and the player has blatantly said she doesn't want to. This makes things harder for the GM, slows down the game, and implies she doesn't care about the work the GM is putting in to make things run smoothly.
Likely because of this inconsiderateness, the GM is basically saying "well, if you won't learn, you can't play in this game" by making a new campaign that requires good system mastery. The complex game may have been the plan, player or no player, but the frustration has definitely played a roll in the kicking.
All in all, the player needs to stop being lazy, and the GM needs to mellow out. They need to come to some sort of understanding.
|
|
What's so drastic about playing another game? Will she go into gamer shock? Oh noes! Extra options/advice are extra. We don't know what the will happen but its best to plan ahead. Or in my opinion think on what went wrong to start with. As maybe PF just isn't her game. Its nothing to be ashamed of.It's a little early to be considering what other games she should be in. Really is it THAT hard to just talk to her first before making any drastic decisions?
Because it is disruptive to the group as a whole particularly if they are dedicated solely to PF. Not to mention jumping to new system is confusing when you haven't finished learning the rules you are currently working with.
Because it is disruptive to the group as a whole particularly if they are dedicated solely to PF. Not to mention jumping to new system is confusing when you haven't finished learning the rules you are currently working with.What's so drastic about playing another game? Will she go into gamer shock? Oh noes! Extra options/advice are extra. We don't know what the will happen but its best to plan ahead. Or in my opinion think on what went wrong to start with. As maybe PF just isn't her game. Its nothing to be ashamed of.It's a little early to be considering what other games she should be in. Really is it THAT hard to just talk to her first before making any drastic decisions?
Jumping to learn chemistry has nothing to do with whether or not I was halfway into learning physics. It doesn't make it harder or easier. Same thing with BG's and RPG's. I don't see how me being halfway through Pathfinder would make me any-less receptive to learning Ryuutama.
Also its only disruptive if it replaces the time and days they have dedicated for their PF. Not if its another game on another day. Does your Monday football disrupt your Friday baseball game? No of course not. We can assume the players will avoid disruptive. In fact I think that's the basis of this thread. A desire to avoid a disruptive element.
|
|
The problem I have with this is that I've dealt with similar players. Players who refuse to learn the rules, even though they've had a lot of time to. The blame is on both sides.
The GM is frustrated because the player won't try to meet him/her halfway. The GM has asked the player to try to learn the rules, and the player has blatantly said she doesn't want to. This makes things harder for the GM, slows down the game, and implies she doesn't care about the work the GM is putting in to make things run smoothly.
Likely because of this inconsiderateness, the GM is basically saying "well, if you won't learn, you can't play in this game" by making a new campaign that requires good system mastery. The complex game may have been the plan, player or no player, but the frustration has definitely played a roll in the kicking.
All in all, the player needs to stop being lazy, and the GM needs to mellow out. They need to come to some sort of understanding.
It sounds to me as though the group and the GM are rules intensive players, and the GM is raising that aspect to new heights. If she has other lite rules groups to learn from then introducing her to those groups is best but if such groups can't be found then kicking her from this game will just result in kicking her from RPGs altogether, which also is not fair.
She may be trying to avoid conflict without realizing that she is actually making things worse, the GM doesn't sound very supporting either as I haven't heard anything about the GM trying to meet halfway.
If she is actually playing the game, then she might be considering herself as coming halfway, by letting the rules savvy take care of the rules without her interference slowing them down, and she tries to be helpful in-character. (What may be in her head)
8 players are too many in my experience. I'd be past looking for reasons to cut people from a game, and looking for reasons to let them in. I've found that anything more than 5 is too much for me to handle.
Splitting into two groups/games would let both groups have more fun. Do them both in the same room if this is also the chance for everybody to hang out, or alternate games and put together a schedule if it's only about the gaming.
|
|
Because it is disruptive to the group as a whole particularly if they are dedicated solely to PF. Not to mention jumping to new system is confusing when you haven't finished learning the rules you are currently working with.What's so drastic about playing another game? Will she go into gamer shock? Oh noes! Extra options/advice are extra. We don't know what the will happen but its best to plan ahead. Or in my opinion think on what went wrong to start with. As maybe PF just isn't her game. Its nothing to be ashamed of.It's a little early to be considering what other games she should be in. Really is it THAT hard to just talk to her first before making any drastic decisions?
Jumping to learn chemistry has nothing to do with whether or not I was halfway into learning physics. It doesn't make it harder or easier.
Also its only disruptive if it replaces the time and days they have dedicated for their PF. Not if its another game on another day. Does your Monday football disrupt your Friday baseball game? No of course not. We can assume the players will avoid disruptive. In fact I think that's the basis of this thread. A desire to avoid a disruptive element.
First, it depends on how closely related the games are, RPG to RPG is likely to be close enough that she reaches for the d20 instead of the d6 but then stops trying remember which one she needs because things just switched up on her, jumping to a card game is different enough to not suffer this.
Second, if they don't play other systems even on other days, it would still be disruptive to the group if they have no interest in learning, more so because they would only be doing it because of one player.
|
|
8 players are too many in my experience. I'd be past looking for reasons to cut people from a game, and looking for reasons to let them in. I've found that anything more than 5 is too much for me to handle.
Splitting into two groups/games would let both groups have more fun. Do them both in the same room if this is also the chance for everybody to hang out, or alternate games and put together a schedule if it's only about the gaming.
This depends solely on the GM. My first GM had several groups running and had the groups meet on occasion (usually boss battles) resulting in up to 14 people at table at once and she still had control of the game and kept things running smoothly and easily (if a bit slow).
Well if we are suggesting that PF isn't her type of game would you not assume the alternatives we would recommend be VERY FAR from PF rules wise? I sure as hell wouldn't ask her to go play Spycraft or Mutuants and Masterminds.
We don't know their schedule and I already said the hard sell on our suggestion was the other players. Not that expanding their RPing horizons would be bad thing IF they were open to the idea.
It sounds to me as though the group and the GM are rules intensive players, and the GM is raising that aspect to new heights. If she has other lite rules groups to learn from then introducing her to those groups is best but if such groups can't be found then kicking her from this game will just result in kicking her from RPGs altogether, which also is not fair.
She may be trying to avoid conflict without realizing that she is actually making things worse, the GM doesn't sound very supporting either as I haven't heard anything about the GM trying to meet halfway.
If she is actually playing the game, then she might be considering herself as coming halfway, by letting the rules savvy take care of the rules without her interference slowing them down, and she tries to be helpful in-character. (What may be in her head)
The problem with that reasoning is that she's not meeting them halfway by playing the game. Playing in a game is kind of a privilege. You owe it to the others to try to keep things going smoothly. Especially when the game's really full--things will be slow already.
We don't know that she's a roleplayer, do we? We just know that she doesn't like rules. Too easily we just go between "roleplayer" and "ruleplayer" without realizing there's a third camp: "apathetic player"
Again, the GM is at fault as well for overreacting. But it's my opinion that a player needs to be willing to pitch in. If they won't even try to learn the rules, they're being unfair to everyone, and something needs to be done about it.
The only thing the OP said was, "she is a good player". I think we assumed early that since she wasn't into the rules that meant good at role playing. But that's our assumption. (I admit it was mine.)
|
|
...
And honestly i don't understand why since she seem to enjoy herself and have fun everytime we play, and rules aside she's a nice player with good ideas and a very nice person to be with.
...
This was said later. To me this means she is actually playing the game, though I could be wrong, the OP seems to enjoy her gameplay if not her rule play.
Because it is disruptive to the group as a whole particularly if they are dedicated solely to PF. Not to mention jumping to new system is confusing when you haven't finished learning the rules you are currently working with.What's so drastic about playing another game? Will she go into gamer shock? Oh noes! Extra options/advice are extra. We don't know what the will happen but its best to plan ahead. Or in my opinion think on what went wrong to start with. As maybe PF just isn't her game. Its nothing to be ashamed of.It's a little early to be considering what other games she should be in. Really is it THAT hard to just talk to her first before making any drastic decisions?
LOL.
But she has no interest in learning the rules of the game that she's in NOW!
Kobold Cleaver it's pretty clear she isn't apathetic. Apathetic players only show up to be close to someone they want to spend time with and rarely get involved in playing. The OP made it clear she enjoys these games in her own right. And she clearly enjoys playing... just not rules (for whatever reason)... Did I mention someone should you know talk to her and find out more.
In my experience newbie players don't have a play style yet. And it only starts being a "privilege" when they grow out of that newbie shell and find their own pace in the game. Up until then YES they should be shown extra consideration. It may very well BE that she grows into a rules focused PF player just like the others if someone would just help her past whatever it is she is having problems with. This is also why shoving her into another game may not solve anything.
Isn't it better to find out from the one person who knows what is going on first? Once you know why then it becomes a lot simpler and fairer to come up with a solution.
|
|
.........
LOL.
But she has no interest in learning the rules of the game that she's in NOW!
That might be just because the group is rules intensive (which is overwhelming for newbies), she my display no interest because she wants to play the game rather then play around with stats and rules. If this is the case, then playing with rules intensive people is a huge barrier to learning that many such players would rather not deal with, not when they can just let others handle the unpleasant rules-lawyering and then just play character.
edit Yes I do agree with talking to her about it.
PS: I have been also assuming she isn't good with the rules... based on just not wanting to update her character? It may be she actually IS learning the rules and playing with the rules just fine. But if this IS the case then the GM has an even worse attitude problem than I thought.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I also get the feeling that if this were a guy we were talking about here he would have just been written off as lazy and or disruptive.
Instead we're playing lets blame the GM for this persons immaturity / lack of communication skills and or laziness.
We're also making a metric ass load of assumptions here. Going strictly by what we've been told the GM wants to start another game because this one player refuses to try and learn the basic rules of the system and it's as annoying as hell. when asked about the why of this the person has said they dont want to learn the rules or level up their character because they dont feel like it.
Somehow, the GM seems to be the one at fault here because he's not reaching out enough or mollycoddling her. He's been called everything from a jerk to a dick (more accurately saying HIS behavior is dickish) while this person gets to get away with "I didn't feel like it" as an acceptable response.
I'd like new players to our hobby but not all shoes fit all feet and not all games or groups are right for everyone. The detractors seem willing to force this person upon this group to satisfy some sense of duty and obligation and vilify the GM as some sort of insensitive and mean jerk for just wanting to play/run his game. Nevermind that there are SEVEN other people in this group some of which are probably just as annoyed with this player as the GM.
There are a couple things that can happen here.
She can either find a new group and/or rules light system.
She can make the effort to learn the rules.
She can communicate with her GM and ask for assistance with leaning the basics. As a GM i've helped make cheat sheets and or streamline character sheets for them. It something I dont mind doing as a DM.
But I'm not going to intrude on someones personal space to impose my will. Even with my friends. I think it's pretty obnoxious to keep prodding someone on what my be wrong with them. I'll ask once. If they dont want to tell me anything then that's their right but I let them know whenever their ready they can talk to me.
Once asked one of my players if she wanted me to talk to another one of my players about some semi-obnoxious stuff that was going on at the table. She declined and said that she should deal with it herself. I took her at her word and intent and left it alone. I dont know if she spoke to to the other player or not but that was where my involvement began and ended.
Part of being a GM isnt being someone's therapist prodding and poking them for a response that they may not want to give. I take my players at their word. If they want me involved they are mature enough to say so. If there's an issue passive aggressiveness is not how you handle it neither is mollycoddling your players. Say what you mean and mean what you say.
Pretty much anything else leads to misunderstandings and escalating conflict.
Try this: “Hey DM, this sounds like a fantastic game. But I’d prefer a game where we could all play. Got something else? Or how about if we set her up with a fully fleshed out easy to play PC?”
I dealt with a different but similar in some cases situation before. I was running a game and one of the players decided they wanted to play a Warmage. Up until this point said player had only run Fighters or Barbarians. Essentially every combat devolved into this player letting someone else at the table make their choices for them because they couldn't make up their mind what spell they wanted to use. If you remember the Warmage their spell list was mostly damage, damage, some stuff, and damage. I had to take this player aside and basically tell them that if they didn't wanna spend the time learning how to play a caster don't do it. It took 2 months, meeting weekly, of me letting them slide before I got fed up and had that talk though.
If it's a learning disability I'm very open to that my cousin is incredibly dyslexic and english is her second language so we're patient. If you're intelligent and aren't disabled just lazy I hand hold for the first bit, then put on training wheels so you can ride alone, then I remove them. If it turns out you can't ride without the training wheels I can't afford the time to carebear. When sessions are 4 hours long at max with my group on a weekly-biweekly meeting based on work schedules those windows are only open so long till my gamers have to run home to children none of which are over the age of 4.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
See Robert Jordan did the right thing. When he was fed up with his player he talked to her. He didn't just sit there stewing in anger and plotting how to remove the player behind her back.
If the GM can't communicate his displeasure then that is the real problem.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I dealt with a different but similar in some cases situation before. I was running a game and one of the players decided they wanted to play a Warmage. Up until this point said player had only run Fighters or Barbarians. Essentially every combat devolved into this player letting someone else at the table make their choices for them because they couldn't make up their mind what spell they wanted to use. If you remember the Warmage their spell list was mostly damage, damage, some stuff, and damage. I had to take this player aside and basically tell them that if they didn't wanna spend the time learning how to play a caster don't do it. It took 2 months, meeting weekly, of me letting them slide before I got fed up and had that talk though.
If it's a learning disability I'm very open to that my cousin is incredibly dyslexic and english is her second language so we're patient. If you're intelligent and aren't disabled just lazy I hand hold for the first bit, then put on training wheels so you can ride alone, then I remove them. If it turns out you can't ride without the training wheels I can't afford the time to carebear. When sessions are 4 hours long at max with my group on a weekly-biweekly meeting based on work schedules those windows are only open so long till my gamers have to run home to children none of which are over the age of 4.
Which is a great way to handle it.
See Robert Jordan did the right thing. When he was fed up with his player he talked to her. He didn't just sit there stewing in anger and plotting how to remove the player behind her back.
If the GM can't communicate his displeasure then that is the real problem.
maybe the gm is socially stunted (or awkward if stunted sounds too harsh:) and has trouble confronting/talking to women.