
A Brigand! |
It's an idea i have had rattling around in my head for awhile. Basically, trying to make a TWF combat "rogue" that is viable regardless of sneak attack conditions.
STR 12
DEX 15 (17)
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 11
CHA 10
traits:
River Rat
Reactionary
1 Finesse
1 TWF
3 Combat Reflexes
5 Iron Will
7 ITWF
9 Toughness
11 Lunge
13 Following Step
15 Improved Iron Will
Fighter Feats:
1 Weapon Focus:Dagger
2(3) Improved Initiative
4(7) Weapon Specialization: Dagger
6(11) Step Up
8(15)Step Up and Strike
Rogue Talents
2(4) Fast Stealth
4(8) Surprise Attack
6(12)Deft Palm
8(16)Camouflage
The idea here is to full attack as often as possible, preferably with Sneak Attack (obviously). IF I can't, then I will try to charge with the Scout's Charge in an attempt to still get Sneak Attack on at least one attack. Failing all of that, I still have Weapon training and Weapon Specialization. Combined with light armor and Agile daggers, i feel I should do alright regardless.
Any advice or suggestions are much appreciated!

A Brigand! |
at what level will you start? in what order will you multiclass? I think you shoul not take more than 4 levels in fighter.
starting level would probably be 2. Order of classes would be Fighter, Rogue, Fighter, Rogue, etc. until 8 levels of rogue, after which the rest is fighter.
Why should i not take more than 4 levels of fighter? Seems to me fighter has more consistent damage than the rogue, hence the Weapon Master, to get that faster. The Rogue is for higher (but situational) damage, and skills which the Fighter very much lacks.
If anything, I expect people to argue to take less rogue.

Mort the Cleverly Named |

Some of your goals seem to be a bit at odds with each other.
Even with agile weapons, Weapon Training, and Specialization, your single attack damage will be pitiful, and your non-Sneak full-attack not much better. It is the curse of TWF builds. While the Scout abilities make sense (as you will get Sneak Attack), I couldn't recommend many of the other feats. Combat Reflexes won't help much unless you have someone setting up extra AoO for you. The whole Step Up line will be of little use as you usually won't end up in a position to Sneak Attack, and Skirmisher won't help here (as it requires the attack action to function). It might leave you in a position to full-attack, but the chances of that being with Sneak are not great, and even when it comes up the danger of being exposed might be too great (as Scout has taken away your Uncanny Dodge).
There isn't much need for Improved Initiative AND Surprise Attack. Improved Initiative and high Dexterity already mean you are likely to act early in the Surprise Round, making that talent a less useful choice. I'd recommend something to add a rider to Sneak Attack instead, personally. Camouflage wouldn't be a choice I would make for a combat character, especially when Combat Trick, Weapon Training, Offensive Defense, and others are still on the table. But if you want a bit of extra stealth, it is what it is.
With the stats, you might want to consider dropping Strength down. 1 damage on your main hand only is pretty irrelevant, and you'll be going for agile weapons anyway. Light armor and daggers means weight won't be a big deal either. I'd probably switch some of the Intelligence over into Wisdom as well (Perception+Will Saves, yay!), but with Improved Iron Will you are passably covered without it.
Overall, if you want consistent non-sneak damage, I'd recommend other options. Ranger/rogue with high Strength and a glove of storing could allow you to Power Attack with a weapon two-handed, then pop out a light weapon for when you can full/sneak attack. Just an idea. There are also several archetypes for both Fighter and Rogue that could be taken, but it would move further and further away from the dagger thing (which I don't know if you are interested in).

Nicos |
Nicos wrote:at what level will you start? in what order will you multiclass? I think you shoul not take more than 4 levels in fighter.starting level would probably be 2. Order of classes would be Fighter, Rogue, Fighter, Rogue, etc. until 8 levels of rogue, after which the rest is fighter.
Why should i not take more than 4 levels of fighter? Seems to me fighter has more consistent damage than the rogue, hence the Weapon Master, to get that faster. The Rogue is for higher (but situational) damage, and skills which the Fighter very much lacks.
If anything, I expect people to argue to take less rogue.
If you want to be a fighter that do more damage then a couple of levels in rogue do not help a lot. It hurts your BAB and the damage from the sneak attack is easily reproducible with piiranha strike, greter weapon focus and greater weapon specialization.

A Brigand! |
Overall, if you want consistent non-sneak damage, I'd recommend other options. Ranger/rogue with high Strength and a glove of storing could allow you to Power Attack with a weapon two-handed, then pop out a light weapon for when you can...
Wouldn't such a build be better with a spiked gauntlet or cestus? Its something I've offered to the gods of the forum for sacrifice, but there weren't many nibbles.
Maybe I'll try it again sometime....

Mort the Cleverly Named |

Wouldn't such a build be better with a spiked gauntlet or cestus? Its something I've offered to the gods of the forum for sacrifice, but there weren't many nibbles.
Good point. I always forget about the cestus. I usually jump to a kukri or something because TWF = crit fishing in my mind, and by the time critical feats are in play the cost of a glove of storing isn't particularly relevant. However, pre-level 11 or so, the is clearly the superior choice.

A Brigand! |
A Brigand! wrote:Wouldn't such a build be better with a spiked gauntlet or cestus? Its something I've offered to the gods of the forum for sacrifice, but there weren't many nibbles.Good point. I always forget about the cestus. I usually jump to a kukri or something because TWF = crit fishing in my mind, and by the time critical feats are in play the cost of a glove of storing isn't particularly relevant. However, pre-level 11 or so, the is clearly the superior choice.
whatevs, I started a different thread about a similar ranger rogue. I can always use these ideas for NPCs, whether or not they are considered good enough by the forum standards to be PCs.

Anetra |

Hi! Unfortunately, I'm stuck on my phone right now which makes me of limited utility where posting completed builds is concerned, but I have actually a lot of experience with builds like this!
In my experience, you're best served by picking fighter or rogue to be your main class, and then dipping into the other (a 2 level dip into rogue, or a 4 level dip into fighter).
If you do mainly Rogue, take the knife archetype on rogue and weapon master on fighter. Equip Gloves of Dueling to boost your weapon training by 2, and take the "Improved Two-Weapon Feint" feat from ... UC, I think. This will let you, at high levels, sacrifice one of your, like, 6 attacks to get sneak attacks on the other five. Take advantage of the Outflank teamwork feat and pair up with a fighter who is ideally also using a high crit weapon (you are using kukris, right?). If you both pick up Combat Reflexes, you'll be able to rock a lot of AoO's on each other's crits (especially your, in my imagination, 2H fighter with a falchion who is doing stupid amounts of additional damage on all these crits you get with your 8000 attacks).
If you do mainly fighter you'll actually want to be strength based. You'll need good stats to make this work, which can be difficult, but can be done without giving up too much. I've done it on 20 point buy while indulgint a decent int and cha.
With the mostly fighter build, you'll want to take the Two-Weapon Warrrior archetype to maximize your ability to make multiple attacks, take two levels in rogue with whatever archetype strikes your fancy (poisoner is fancy). Take the rogue talent in APG that lets you sacrifice your sneak dice (oh no 1d6 less) to let an ally treat the foe as if they were flat footed (either your best friend the rogue, or your wizard; the latter can then proceed to Enervate against flat-footed touch AC).
Take Outflank with your rogue rogue and be their best friend, and take Power Attack and Double Slice. Critical feats are also beastly, and you're a fighter so you can take Critical Mastery to stack Bleeding Critical and Staggering Critical to really deadly effect.