Deuxhero -
GET A DANG BOW!
Works just fine.
/endthread.
Really? Another one of these threads? Aren't there enough of them already?
Ahh but the real question AM .... Can you fly?Deuxhero = Wall
Others post = Your head
Topic = The sicking thud every time the two meet.BARBARIAN SMASHER RAGE POWER AM ABLE IGNORE HARDNESS OF WALL. BARBARIAN SUNDER TALKY WALL SMACK THUD TOPIC LIKE AM TUESDAY.
NOT CONSIDER THAT, HUH TALKY PERSON.
BARBARIAN RECOMMEND DIRE BAT FOR REASON, TALKY PERSON.
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^^ Because again, "the creatures should be run as idiots" is not a valid argument when even an int 1 bird knows not to land and let you attack it or make its lair in a place it can't fly. It's like asking why Giants don't live in a place filled with narrow corridors.
CR also assume there is no outside advantage like terrain features or an ambush (unless the monster is written TO ambush)
REALLY?????? ORLY?????????????
Lets take a small look at Beastiary 1 monsters, by Index ranked by CR at lvl 10.
bebilith, brachiosaurus, clay golem, couatl, fire giant, giant flytrap, guardian naga, rakshasa, red dragon (young), silver dragon (young), white dragon (adult)
Now, I count 11 monsters. First point, Only the Couatl and the 3 dragons actually fly (note to self, not 50% of creatures).
Secondly, the Couatl is an outsider, but his typical terrain on Golarion is...wait for it...
Ecology
Environment warm forests
Now...last time I looked, there were these tall things in a forest that you could climb, they were called brees or frees or grees or...soemthing like that. Wild huh??
He casts as a 9th level sorcerer, which means spells up to 4th level. He would have 4 at that point, barring any exceptional stats.
3rd and 4th level spells are hardly game breaking and would hardly do enough damage to our worthless and pointless (and bowless!) fighter guy.
Lets look at the scary one on that list...the Adult White Dragon!
Well now...this guy casts as only a lvl 1 caster, hardly anything to write home about or worry our fearless brave bowless fighter who stands around useless and pointless because he cant fly! Mr Dragon has a couple of cool powers, but nothing that can really damage the Useless non-flying Fighter. Whatever is the flying dragon to do? Surely it would NEVER EVER stoop to actual melee. But how does it stop the interlopers in its domain...
and what about its domain? Icy Mountains, right out of the book. Ever look at mountains? Hardly a featureless plain, and one where an enterprising Fighter (altho surely not one so enterprising as to bring a flippin' bow) would be able to climb on a rock, or leap of a small overhang and attack the Dragon.
Indeed, the Adult White Dragon's stats are:
Adult White Dragon CR 10
XP 9,600
CE Large dragon (cold)
Init +5; Senses dragon senses, snow vision; Perception +22
Aura cold (5 ft., 1d6 cold damage), frightful presence (180 ft., DC 17)
Defense
AC 27, touch 10, flat-footed 26 (+1 Dex, +17 natural, –1 size)
hp 149 (13d12+65)
Fort +13, Ref +9, Will +10
DR 5/magic; Immune cold, paralysis, sleep; SR 21
Weaknesses vulnerability to fire
Offense
Speed 30 ft., burrow 30 ft., fly 200 ft. (poor), swim 60 ft.
Melee bite +20 (2d6+10/19–20), 2 claws +19 (1d8+7), 2 wings +14 (1d6+3), tail slap +14 (1d8+10)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft. (10 ft. with bite)
Special Attacks breath weapon (40-ft. cone, DC 21, 12d4 cold)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 13th)
At will—fog cloud, gust of wind
Spells Known (CL 1st)
1st (4/day)—shield, true strike
0 (at will)—dancing lights, detect magic, ray of frost, mending
Statistics
Str 25, Dex 12, Con 21, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 12
Base Atk +13; CMB +21; CMD 32 (36 vs. trip)
Feats Alertness, Flyby Attack, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Vital Strike, Weapon Focus (bite)
Skills Fly +11, Intimidate +17, Knowledge (arcane) +17, Perception +22, Spellcraft +17, Stealth +13, Swim +31
Languages Common, Draconic
SQ icewalking, ice shape
SO again I ask, other than going into Melee with the Useless Non-Flying-Non-Bow-Wielding Fighter would an adult dragon EVER get this guy out of his habitat???
See....Duexhero, the problem here is you are refusing to use even the slightest bit of common sense.
Monsters HAVE to fight, even flying ones. And when they do, they HAVE to close into melee combat range at some point with the Fighter...and when they do that, the Fighter is no longer useless and pointless, even if he is bowless.
This isn't "playing the monster as an idiot" like you claim. This isnt that the monsters make their lairs in stupid places...Heck, half of them are outsiders and would be called to those dark, cramped, non-flying feasible places.
Once again, your argument fails.
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This thread is like a bad traffic accident - I try not to look, but can't help myself.
It is very obvious there is no point to this thread other than to fuel an unhealthy amount of nerdrage.
I'm flagging it for violation of the "don't be a jerk" rule. Please, guys. Stop feeding the troll and use your energy to provide advice to people who are actually interested in listening to it.
"Error 37"
Seriously, are they not teaching Critical Thinking anymore?
Is that a 3PP feat? My GM doesn't allow them.
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Blood is spilled
A drink for special occasions
Death's grip is weak
Actually a very good Haiku!
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So wait is this guy's complaint that the fighter isn't innately amazing at every encounter he will ever get in forever without investing in disposable items or relying on hit teammates? Also aren't many of your example martial classes that get flying totally reliant on the aforementioned classes spending hard earned class powers and feats to get them? How is this any different then a fighter picking up a weapon focus with a bow? What about if the aforementioned barbarian doesn't want to go dragon does that make him no longer viable, or a magus who doesn't pick up feather fall or dimension door how is this pigeon holing any more viable then the pigeon holing you complain the fighter suffers from?
In a sense it could be considered that way? I stated earlier that "it is feats, skills (cross-class, typically), and magic items that are not reflective of the class' personal abilities that do not add to an assessment of the class itself." In other words, in an assessment of only the class' chassis, it is not conducive to begin invoking workarounds as if it were part of the class itself (unless they use features that are a part of the class, but that should be a given).
But a class doesn't operate on it's own. A class is a pack of abilities for a character, and of course interacts with that characters other abilities.
Saying "fighter sucks for fighting because ze can't fly" is like saying "vorpal swords sucks for fighting because they can't make attacks" or "power attack sucks because it's useless if you don't use workarounds to get 13 strength so you can take it".
And if the chassis has access to UMD, we should assume that it has access to every spell in the game?
Yes, in limited dosage and in comparison to what stats it will have with a reasonable investment.
Saying that a bard is useful as a support character because it can use wands of CLW, has a few healing/status removals of it's own, and can use scrolls of restoration with UMD if needs be isn't in any way controversial. Saying that a cleric can easily have good AC if just picking up heavy armor proficiency and a mithral full plate is not controversial.
Stating that barbarians have no issue relying on scrolls of Wail of the Banshee to pwn everyone or that druids are good with their Holy Avengers is pretty weak arguments though.
There are a lot of variables at play and just disregarding all but one will lead to no new insights or ideas.
I can't believe I read the whole thing. I swear, we're just Smurf rule about bringing up Smurf of Smurfette on Smurfette to have covered it all
I read half of the first page, skipped to this one, and see no progress made.
OP: If your DM is running you against flying monster as often as you seem to say, and your Fighter, despite having a number of resources available to him, refuses to budge an inch to adapt the the fighting style of the campaign, YOU ARE GOING TO FAIL.
Either talk to your DM about helping out with some encounters where your Fighter gets to shine in melee, in the ground, or spend some WBL and GET SOME **** FLIGHT.
The tools are in the game already. If you refuse to adapt your Fighter to battle this never ending stream of flying monsters, then your failure is at your own hands. Period. Do you seriously advocate Fighters, who have no magic whatsoever, getting a Flight class ability?
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Let me get this straight. This is a thread about how fighters should be able to fly, and people are actually responding in it? How does this happen?
Wait, I just did it too. OK, I get it now.
Winged Boots are 16,000
Unless you spend gold to get new spells, which eats right through your WBL and therefore doesn't count, Wizards are pretty much strictly inferior to Sorcerers, since they know fewer spells and don't get the benefits of spontaneous casting. They're completely outclassed in the one thing they can actually do: cast spells.
What the game really needs is for Wizards to be made stronger. Maybe free access to all arcane spells instead of this spellbook nonsense, no opposition schools, and d8 hit die would be a good place to start.
Also getting lots of feats doesn't count as a class feature of fighters because I say so so no mentioning feats, that's not a valid argument.
Had thought Pathfinder got rid of Lurker Above and Lurker Below.
But saw this thread. Looks like brick wall, actually monster. Lurker beside?
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Now at post 267 and threadwinner post from five pages ago still applies.
get. a. bow.
Now at post 267 and threadwinner post from five pages ago still applies.
get. a. bow.
Nonsense. We all know the more optimal solution is to take a variant bloodline that allows a Ranged Touch SLA, pick traits that allow more uses of this SLA, then multiclass into some kind of Arcane spellcasting class so you can eventually craft Boots of Flying, or just cast Fly.
/paizo boards
Really? Another one of these threads? Aren't there enough of them already?
Yes. More than enough, sadly.
Spend a single feat (1/10th of your feats) on Deadly Aim, and invest in at least a halfway decent bow as your backup weapon (+2 easily within budget by 10th level), and just don't neglect Dex.
By 10th level, you should be getting 1d8+13 or so, at a +16/+11. You are looking at around a DPR of ~20 against average CR10 stats. This isn't insignificant for a backup option. That's about 1/6th of the creature's hitpoints in a round... that's two rounds of combat for a 4 person group.
Note, it's also independent of any kind of outside factors: a bard giving inspire courage, a cleric casting prayer, a spellcaster giving haste (big one).. heck, even the Slow spell reduces the enemy's AC giving your bow option even better DPR.
As was stated, that flying creature is likely to not have a lot of options to do anything to the Fighter while staying away from him. Readied actions deal with flybys, and if the creature wants to full attack him, he's going to have to get within reach.
Most of my Fighter builds include Quickdraw, Deadly Aim, and when I get the chance, Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot.
And I never neglect Dexterity on my Fighters. Between mithral and the Armor Training, you can easily boost Full Plate's Max Dex to 5 by 10th level (that's a 20 Dex score)... you aren't losing out by having a decent Dex score at all.
deuxhero, I think I am beginning to see your problem.
You can't understand why the fighter can't be teh awesome at everything all the time everywhere.
Or, to put it another way, you don't want to play Pathfinder. You want to play "Awesomesauce: The Game".
^ No, it's over 4 rounds, because you can't hit anything half the time WITHOUT Deadly Aim, even in optimal conditions for bow use. With deadly aim, you hit even LESS of the time.
I'm really getting tired people thinking "hit less than half the time and do a fraction of your normal damage" is a valid argument.
Average CR10 AC: 24.
At level 10, we're looking at +10 (BAB) +3 (Dex) +1 (WT) +2 (Bow) = +16, or needing an 8 to hit (65% hit chance). This is assuming no buffs whatsoever and a fairly strength-heavy low-dex build.
With deadly aim, it's 50%/25% hit chance for 1d8+2d6+15 or so damage (holy/bane arrows are dirt cheap for those circumstances).
And that is with a one feat investment. Out of twelve feats. And only minimal equipment investment.
So you can in fact hit half the time without deadly aim against an even-CR'd creature. And that's if you're up against a single CR10 creature; if you are four people against a single CR10 it's going to be easy even if you sit it out. More likely it's something like three CR7 (a CR10 encounter) where chance to hit is 75%/50% with DA.
So yes, against single high-CR flying opponents your efficiency when using a bow with nearly no investment is low. That's your problem for playing incompetently/lacking teamwork, not the issue of the fighter character hirself since ze has had many opportunities to pick up methods to combat this.
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Nah, just "I'm Not Terrible at the Thing in My Name Past Level 8 and Can't Do Anything Else to Compensate: The Game" (INTatTiMNPL8aCDAEtC:TG)
Your definition of "terrible at the thing" seems to match my definition of "pretty darn good at, but not quite awesome."
A fighter with a str adjusted bow and a decent dex is going to be a pretty good archer without feats. Invest a reasonable amount of gold into an enchanted bow to boost attack and damage and you're even better. Invest one or two of your ridiculous pile of bonus feats into a bow and you'll be even better. Then get the party wizard, cleric or druid to boost your dex and you'll be right back up there with awesome again.
Oh, but then you won't have those two feats making you even more awesome with your two-handed ogre-cleaver and that means some obscure build somewhere might theoretically do a tad more damage than you in melee. That simply is not to be endured, is it?
Sigh. Good luck with your gaming dude. You're gonna need it.
By the way, I would never put deadly aim on anything but a full BAB fully dedicated archer. There are much better feats for a part-time archer, and without deadly aim you might need one more arrow to put the enemy down, but you'll hit more frequently anyway.
Again, I remain skeptical of the value of deadly aim, and in this case for this situation I think it's a particularly poor choice for a part-time archer with very few feats invested in archery.
Did I tell people using that argument the math is terrible unless you are more Archer than (melee) Fighter? 'Cause, if not, someone should mention that.
-Deuxhero
Did anyone mention that the math you are doing is testable and that even your part-time archer does plenty of damage in a variety of easily obtainable situations requiring minimal investment of gold and feats but that because the result doesn't match the over-the-top awesomeness of your fully dedicated melee results you sneer at them as "terrible"?
Because if not, someone should mention that.
Secondly, unless you spend ANOTHER feat, you aren't getting that second attack.
Why not?
Moral of the story: all fighters should carry a bow.
/Thread
Moral of the story: all combatants should carry a ranged weapon.
/Thread
FIFY
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Deuxhero.
What do you propose?
Because I don't want to put words in your mouth but the impression I'm getting is that you feel extensive martial training should eventually lead to the ability to fly.
Is this correct?
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I'd like to throw in my two copper pieces, and say that a high-level fighter isn't like a 3rd level fighter; you shouldn't be expecting him to be marching around fighting things sword and board. A high-level fighter has RESOURCES and FRIENDS and there is a good chance he's got an ARMY at his beck and call, if not his own, then he's likely made friends with a king or queen somewhere who has.
What I'm getting-at, is the fact we need to get beyond this "this is my main" video game mentality, and look at these characters as part of an ongoing narrative. By the time you reach 15th or 20th level, aren't you a big player in the word? Doesn't everyone know and fear your name? Do the bards not sing songs about you?
A good GM will have given you the opportunities to develop your character beyond the stuff written on your character sheet, so that when it comes time to slay that ancient red dragon, you'll be able to obtain that pegasus, or enlist the aid of the Griffon Riders of Farreach, or enlist the aid of the Grand Wizard Suthaz, who loves casting Flying and making Potions of Flying and wears a Hat of Cast Flying Spells on Fighters and is willing to risk his old life to take down that dragon once and for all. Think he'd do that for an Oracle? No way.
I am confused why this is a problem.
Last time I checked, there were usually (I daresay over 95% of the time) other party members to help him fly, or to somehow bring the flying beastie down, or do something in order to help him.
Or, you know, big magic bows. It might not be optimized to use a bow if you are a fighter who hasn't spent about 500 feats to be an archer, but you can still do it, and typically far better than most other 3/4 BAB classes.
I *KNOW* this will come as a heresy, and I will get flamed big time for it...but...here goes:
NOT EVERY CLASS NEEDS TO DO EVERYTHING PERFECTLY AND BE BEST AT EVERYTHING.
omgwtfwwjd?!?
I don't always make blanket "you are playing the game wrong" statements, but when I do, I piss everyone off.
Flame on my friends, flame on.
Flame Flame Flame-ity Flame. Please change your name to Bomanzisonfire. Thank you!
It doesn't match the potential because it's not the optimal situation he's built for, right?
Just like a ranger isn't as good if he doesn't face his favored enemy, a paladin isn't quite as good if there's nothing evil to smite,a dedicated archer isn't quite as good in cramped dungeons.
Did I tell people using that argument the math is terrible unless you are more Archer than (melee) Fighter? 'Cause, if not, someone should mention that.
-Deuxhero
Did anyone mention that the math you are doing is testable and that even your part-time archer does plenty of damage in a variety of easily obtainable situations requiring minimal investment of gold and feats but that because the result doesn't match the over-the-top awesomeness of your fully dedicated melee results you sneer at them as "terrible"?
Because if not, someone should mention that.
It also doesn't match the damage potential of any character who
1: Is an actual archer
2: I wasn't aware half your normal damage output was a good goal to aim for.
Thank you for confirming my suspicions entirely deuxhero. You are not satisfied with the fundamental concept of trade-offs in character builds. You want your cake and to eat it too. As I said, you don't want to play Pathfinder.
Did I tell people using that argument the math is terrible unless you are more Archer than (melee) Fighter? 'Cause, if not, someone should mention that.
-Deuxhero
Did anyone mention that the math you are doing is testable and that even your part-time archer does plenty of damage in a variety of easily obtainable situations requiring minimal investment of gold and feats but that because the result doesn't match the over-the-top awesomeness of your fully dedicated melee results you sneer at them as "terrible"?
Because if not, someone should mention that.
It also doesn't match the damage potential of any character who
1: Is an actual archer
2: I wasn't aware half your normal damage output was a good goal to aim for.
*GASP* Roll up an Archer. You can even stay single-classed with Fighter. Crazy, I know.
Seriously, if you're looking at a game with as many flying encounters as you're theory-crafting, you're an idiot if you focus on melee.
Carry a ranged weapon. Hell, even a +1 Returning throwing axe if you're feeling saucy.
I've played in high-level games where nobody thought to bring a bow(seriously, everyone thought someone else would do it) and we resorted to leaping off of ledges to hit it out of the air, and taking fall damage. We felt like idiots, and rightly so. We deserved a TPK, but the DM gave us the ledge and a low flying enemy out of mercy. Now? EVERYONE carries a ranged weapon.
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Ranged Weapon or Item that gives Flight.
If those can't solve the problem then whatever game or idiotic theory-craft world you play in Deuxhero is the real problem.
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^ I know, I've been telling people to do that instead of pretending to be a melee fighter myself.
So you insist on the equivalent of bringing a knife to a gunfight, and wonder why nobody here agrees with you?
