Fighter's can't Fly, and you can't melee what you can't reach.


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

51 to 100 of 803 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | next > last >>

Gorbacz wrote:
deuxhero: Most classes can't heal hp without outside help. Does it make them unplayable?

A lot of classes can't do things without outside help. It is strange the flight is the only thing that gets a spotlight.

For what its worth whether you spend a rage power, feat, or gp you are still spending resources that could have went somewhere else. If the caster(wizard) chooses overland flight or fly he could have chosen a different spell.

The druid can wildshape, but his flying forms are not that good at fighting so he is better off letting the fighter handle it.

The paladin has to give up his weapon for the mount.

In short everyone has to make a sacrifice somewhere to effectively engage in melee while flying.


Nicos wrote:


1)How many enemies can fly without wings, because against winged oponet a tanglefoot bag will solve the problem

PF changed the flight rules so that sadly no longer works. Maneuverability is now just a fly bonus and you don't have to move half your speed or hover with less than perfect.

Dark Archive RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

5 people marked this as a favorite.

Oh, wait, you mean there's a situation in Pathfinder in which a given class isn't able to play to the utmost of its ability? A fighter might have to use a bow instead of his greatsword? Wow, that must be hard.

What does the sorcerer do when the party fights a magic-immune golem?

What does the bard do when the party fights undead?

What does the rogue do when the party fights incorporeal foes?

What does the paladin do when the party fights non-evil enemies?

Your character is not supposed to be at 100% effectiveness all the time. Sometimes circumstances exist that mitigate your character's usefulness. That's why you have a PARTY. In any situation in which you are rendered less effective, one or more of your party members should be right in their element. It's just part of the game.


How about... Half Elf Fighter 8

Str 19/21* (+2 racial +1 at 8th lvl) Dex 16/18* (+1 at 4th level)

*Belt of Str/Dex +2

1st Lvl: Power Attack
F1: Point-Blank Shot
F2: Precise Shot
3rd Lvl: Combat Reflex
F4: Rapid Shot
5th Lvl: Intimidating Prowess
F6: Cornugon Smash
7th Lvl: Manyshot
F8: Blind-Fight

Melee: +1 Falchion +15/+10 (2d4+9/18-20)
Ranged: +1 Composite Longbow +13/+8 (1d8+6)

He can hit that flying CR10 creature (Ac 24) half the time, and that's a ECL+2 encounter. He also has cool tricks in melee... Like making 5 AoO, intimidating enemies as a free action and having a decent chance of hitting inivisible creatures.

I'm sure he could be more optimized, but there you go.

Hitting things hard is not a problem for fighters. Everything else is.


^^^ Hence why I praised the guy who DID come up with a valid answer (even if wasn't a pure solution).

Wait...

^^Isn't actually immune to most spells.
Buffs the party
Actually is a problem
Actually is a problem

This isn't a an odd corner case. This isn't "The Paladin is screwed if he has to fight something not evil", this is "The Paladin is worse than most other classes at fighting evil things"

^Mundane fear effects don't stack anymore. Sorry. Would be pretty cool with Dastardly Finish if they did though.


bigkilla wrote:

Can't you guys tell this guy is not looking for help or answers. He is trolling everyone, just trying to get his kicks.

He has been given plenty of options and solutions but refuses to take the advise. Either he is truly stupid or trolling.

I think the issue is the he was proved wrong in the other thread and does not want to admit it. He was asked is this a problem for him in a "real" game, but he keeps ducking the question. He probably has not even played to that level yet.

He also has the opinion that melee sucks.. I a thinking it is because nobody in his group knew how play a melee type effectively until we showed him how in the last thread. It reminds me of situations when someone is finally confronted with the evidence that the answer was always there, but they just couldn't see it, so the mind tries to hide the truth from them.

He tried to dismiss leadership(unicorns, and pegasus for the win) by saying most GM's ban it, when according to many post on the subject most of them just modify it to get rid of the followers. Of course if we are only going to go by the book, and ignore what actually works in a "real" game like he is doing then, leadership is always valid.


@Fatespinner
Hey, I get your point. And I agree with you, but I gotta disagree with some of your chosen examples.

Fatespinner wrote:
What does the sorcerer do when the party fights a magic-immune golem?

He uses a spell that has SR:No, summon creatures or buff his allies.

Fatespinner wrote:
What does the bard do when the party fights undead?

He buffs his party and deals a decent amount of damage. Or uses spells other than Enchantment. Or uses his bonus to Knowledge skills (including Religion) to recognize the undead's abilities and weaknesses

Fatespinner wrote:
What does the rogue do when the party fights incorporeal foes?

Got me on that one... He... Runs away and hide? Makes a mental note to bring a Ghost Touch dagger next time? Yeah... Rogues got it rough...

Fatespinner wrote:
What does the paladin do when the party fights non-evil enemies?

Huh... I'd guess he uses his full BAB, heavy armor proficiency, high Strength, Divine Bond, minor spell casting, absurd saves, d10 HD and swift action self-healing to kick their asses?

Paladins are very capable of defeating non-evil enemies. The thing is, they are also very capable of utterly destroying evil enemies.


deuxhero wrote:


Buffs the party

If said undead is a fliying undead that bard could make the fighter fly for example.


Nicos's build (which was in THIS thread and I commended) is the only one to present a build that didn't simply ignore the problems brought up and insist that doing nothing for 1/3rd of the fight was valid, or saying the solution to the problems with melee is that your melee fighter should be an archer with passable melee skills that would have simply been better off skipping the melee part and focusing on their bow then insist it's a valid option after the holes are pointed out, but actually came up with a solution I had overlooked (the solution is not valid for the vast majority of fighters, but it does work for Strix and Aasimars).

And Leadership would be better spent having a Wizard to solve your problems for you than a horse if it exists.


deuxhero wrote:
Mundane fear effects don't stack anymore. Sorry. Would be pretty cool with Dastardly Finish if they did though.

I know. But hey, Shaken is still a -2 to attack rolls, saves and skll checks. That's like raising your whole party's AC by 2. And giving your caster Improved Spell Focus.

Honestly, I just like Cornugon Smash cause it gives fighter something else to do. I suppose it could be switched by Furious Focuss, Weapon Focus/Specialization, Improved Sunder or whatever.

I kinda dismiss the "archer with passable melee" point cause for me, that's kinda the whole point of fighters. Being good in combat in many different situations. Sure, he has to practice with his bow as well as his sword.

My problem with PF fighters is that all they got was higher numbers. And that is the one thing fighters didn't need.

But I gotta agree using Leadership is kinda cheating here. It's too powerful, everyone can get it and it's very often banned


deuxhero wrote:

Nicos's build (which was in THIS thread and I commended) is the only one to present a build that didn't simply ignore the problems brought up and insist that doing nothing for 1/3rd of the fight was valid, or saying the solution to the problems with melee is that your melee fighter should be an archer with passable melee skills that would have simply been better off skipping the melee part and focusing on their bow then insist it's a valid option after the holes are pointed out, but actually came up with a solution I had overlooked (the solution is not valid for the vast majority of fighters, but it does work for Strix and Aasimars).

And Leadership would be better spent having a Wizard to solve your problems for you than a horse if it exists.

1. If we are going directly by the book then leadership is an option.

2. If we are going by table play, not every enemy NPC will come from the book, nor will be a flyer. There will be cases where you have to fight inside so flying still won't really help. In that case less than half of the fights will require the fighter to be airborne. Leadership will still be an option, but most likely a modified one. If you are fighting outside the perception skill has good chance of allowing you to find a monster before they find you. That allows for that evil standard action to take place.

In short, no matter how you cut it the fighter will not be hindered by lack of flight enough for it to matter in a real game, and therefore he will not have to worry about using a standard action for every fighter or even half of every fight past level 8. I am sure if this were a real problem DH would have been able to give reasons as to how this is a problem in practice, but not in theory.

PS:Not having a solution, and not having a solution that someone likes are not the same thing.

For the 6th time is this a problem at your table? <--Don't expect an answer folks, just proving a point here.

I am done with the pretend problem. If he comes up with something legit feel free to PM me.


Lemmy wrote:

Honestly, I just like Cornugon Smash cause it gives fighter something else to do. I suppose it could be switched by Furious Focuss, Weapon Focus/Specialization, Improved Sunder or whatever.

Cornugon smash is a great feat. At higher levles use it with dazzing assault FTW. Not to mention that to have a high intimidate elps in non combat situations.

Dark Archive RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Lemmy wrote:

@Fatespinner

Hey, I get your point. And I agree with you, but I gotta disagree with some of your chosen examples.

I wasn't suggesting that there was NOTHING those characters could do, just like there isn't "nothing" for a fighter to do against flying enemies.

The fighter uses his bow against flyers. It's not his best skill, but he can do it.

The sorcerer summons or uses Conjurations with SR: No, even if he's primarily built for blasting.

The bard buffs the party and maybe attacks with a ghost touch weapon or, as you said, points out weaknesses.

The rogue really is kind of screwed, actually.

The paladin, yes, can just step up and be a sub-par fighter for awhile.

These are situations in which the character isn't at 100%, which is all I was illustrating. :)


humans can also gain flight by taking Racial Heritage (Aasimaar) to qualify for the aasimaar flight feats and sylphs have a feat they can also take to fly. Strix get it as a racial ability. anyone can also use a charisma boosting item to qualify for improved eldritch heritage (celestial).


The point is..why are you so @%!&$@ hung up on "max efficiency"? So the fighter spends a action pulling a bow, or getting a fly cast on him..big deal. Its not a game where you are timed, and most players don't operate at "max kill rate" mode. When a player has to be creative; like the rogue vs incorporeal foes..its not a "fail" on the class..its the fact that there should be moments that test the PLAYER as much as the numbers on the character sheet.
It's YOUR issue if you feel it is too much "effort" to pull the bow, or get the spell, and you assume in your examples that not only are those specific archetypes/spells are chosen..but said magic flying barbarian does not have to spend a round (the horror!!) pulling a weapon. The game itself is NOT what is broken simply because it does not play YOUR way.

If you want to talk actual tactics..if you are fighting something powerful enough that spending a single action is life or death..by confronting it in the open, you already failed tactically.
To use your monsters by CR example..in the Bestiary 1, CR 8 has all of 7 out of 19, CR 9 has 6 out of 21, CR 10 has 4 out of 11, all but one being dragons, and CR 11 5 out of 14. Only when you hit CR 14+ do you see the listing dominated by flyers, and thats simply bc most are dragons and major demons/devils.


there is also this thing called improvised solutions. it is reserved for stuff not covered by the rules. this can be anything from using a decanter of endless water to blind a foe long enough for the rogue to get a sneak attack at the guy whose eyes are being firehosed (effectively a ranged dirty trick manuever), or sharpening a quarterstaff into a spear, to something like leaping charge attacks (acrobatics checks) or using hydraulic push to put out a fire.


Fatespinner wrote:

I wasn't suggesting that there was NOTHING those characters could do, just like there isn't "nothing" for a fighter to do against flying enemies.

(..)
These are situations in which the character isn't at 100%, which is all I was illustrating. :)

I suspected that was the case, but I couldn't help myselft. ^^

And, since I'm here anyway...

Fatespinner wrote:
The paladin, yes, can just step up and be a sub-par fighter for awhile.

Actually, the paladin is only a subpar fighter if he falls.

Against a non-evil caster or non-evil creature with dangerous SLAs, I'd still rather have a Paladin by my side.

Divine bond can give him a free enchantment to his weapon. Even against good creatures. He can use it in 1-minute increments, and few encounters last more than 1 min, anyway (that's 10 rounds!).

LoH can not only heal the paladin himself and his allies, but also remove harmful status effects. And let's not forget he's immune to diseases, fear and, eventually, charm and compulsion effects. All while boosting his allies saves!

Paladin spell-casting not only allows him to use those lovely wands of CLW, but also lets him use cool stuff like "Grace", see that Huge dragon with 15ft reach? Pally can go up to him without provoking any AoO! Also, with a 13 Int, Paladin can have access to Bard spells, like, let's say, Invisibility. Or Haste.

Anyway, what I mean is, even without Smite Evil, Paladins are still a serious threat.

But I'm sidetracking... Ahem... I don't think Fighters are useless against flying creatures, even if they are not devoted archers.


Out of interest I had a quick look through the closest issue of Pathfinder that I had to hand, in this case book 6 of Jade Regent. Not too surprisingly the vast majority of encounters were ones in which a fighter could quite happily contribute in melee combat without the use of flight from any source. I'm fairly certain that I'd find the same situation in nearly every Paizo AP out there. I'd be interested in whether deuxhero has any examples of actual adventures where a fighter PC will be unable to contribute without constant use of flight.


Deuxhero wrote:
But a class should be able to do what their very NAME suggests they do

So a barbarian should be a babbling wild from a different country? I must have played him wrong.

But I must admit to miss the thief class, nowadays every stealing rogue is frowned upon by the law.


most of the creatures that have racial flight fall under one of the following criteria

1. outsider or dragon, where they are intended to be dangerous for their CR in exchange for increased treasure reward. they typically also have spells or spell like abilities and better defenses than you. they are meant to be difficult, due to the promise of treasure.

2. winged animals, they pay for their flight by usually sacrificing their combat ability. they usually don't have a lot of treasure to offer and thus don't provide a lot of challenge.

3. spellcasters, whether by spells or spell like abilities. these can be classed humanoids, fey, undead, or other magical entities such as magical beasts or aberrations.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Lemmy wrote:

@Fatespinner

Hey, I get your point. And I agree with you, but I gotta disagree with some of your chosen examples.

Fatespinner wrote:
What does the sorcerer do when the party fights a magic-immune golem?

He uses a spell that has SR:No, summon creatures or buff his allies.

Fatespinner wrote:
What does the bard do when the party fights undead?

He buffs his party and deals a decent amount of damage. Or uses spells other than Enchantment. Or uses his bonus to Knowledge skills (including Religion) to recognize the undead's abilities and weaknesses

Fatespinner wrote:
What does the rogue do when the party fights incorporeal foes?

Got me on that one... He... Runs away and hide? Makes a mental note to bring a Ghost Touch dagger next time? Yeah... Rogues got it rough...

Fatespinner wrote:
What does the paladin do when the party fights non-evil enemies?

Huh... I'd guess he uses his full BAB, heavy armor proficiency, high Strength, Divine Bond, minor spell casting, absurd saves, d10 HD and swift action self-healing to kick their asses?

Paladins are very capable of defeating non-evil enemies. The thing is, they are also very capable of utterly destroying evil enemies.

I think the thing here is that with the majority of the examples here, you have the guys relying on the abilities of other people to carry the battle through (example- the sorcerer or other caster buffing the party). The situation is not dissimilar to the fighter who does not choose to invest in other alternatives (eldritch heritage feats, use magic device w/ wands or scrolls of fly, archery, etc) needing to rely upon others to get him flying.

Basically, no, there's no single solution to this situation. However, taken together many of the above solutions (as adapted to the situation) can work. If the enemy flying wizard has buffed himself up too well with defensive spells, for example, wait for the wizard to dispel them (dispel magic targets all buffs now). That's the wizard's job, using magic to buff/debuff/control the battlefield so the fighter can get in there and strut his stuff. If the rogue's having problems being useful, have him use the wand/scroll/whatever on you to get you airborne, then you've solved two of your problems of usefulness. Better yet, plan ahead and cast fly BEFORE combat starts (it has a duration of minutes).

And if it's a flyer not using magic, use a harpoon/grappling hook/tanglefoot bag to bring it down. (it says under the description of a tanglefoot bag, btw, that a creature must make a reflex save or fall to the ground.) If you don't like drawing a bow or other weapon because of the action economy issue, there is Quick Draw (which is good for melee fighters anyway). You may also have the opportunity to fight other ground bound enemies (as flying casters and the like may bring about nonflying companions). Use knowledge: engineering (it's a fighter class skill now) and the power attack feat tree to find something tall to knock onto the flyers. Draw the creature's focus off of other characters with Antagonize and Intimidate.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Pathfinder is a group game. It is expected that there are others in the group who will help out. If the wizard cast fly on the fighter instead of on himself, the number of actions the wizard takes is the same. If the fighter is able to get to the enemy, and take it out, then the spell was not wasted.

The fighter need not be at the enemy to kill it. That's what ranged attacks are for. It's not hard to build a fighter that can be useful in a variety of combat situations.

Discounting every suggestion that a fighter could implement to gain flight shows that this isn't a conversation meant to do anything other than look for an argument. Every knows the fighter has no in-class ability to fly. However, using that criteria, then many other classes also become useless (since flight seems to be the crux of the problem). If the issue is just getting to the enemy, there are ways to deal with that too.

These types of discussions go nowhere because there is always someone who wants to complain and when presented with contrary evidence, will simply wave the evidence away so they can still be right. It doesn't work that way. I will be glad to provide a fighter that can be useful at melee and range if desired. I won't do it if it's going to be hand waved away because he can't fly.


few thing annoy me more than a player with a 12th level character, complaining his character cant reach the enemy

having got to that level you should know you will rarely get full attacks, and will have met lots of flying and other archers by now

why any Full BAB wouldnt have a bow as back up, when PF archers are so much more powerful than previous editions, is beyond me

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
deuxhero wrote:
But a class should be able to do what their very NAME suggests they do without depending on others and wasting the other party member's actions. Especially when multiple other classes can do it on their own without wasting someone's actions and throwing away money (Barbarian has dragon totem, Synthesist has overland flight or flight evolution, Magus has Force Hook Charge/Dimension Door+Spell Combat with Feather Fall prepared).

Do you understand the concept of cooperative gaming here? The Controller Wizard is depending on you ALL the time to do the chopping and the socking while he makes it easier for you to do so. It actually is permissible to not to be able to be solo responsibility on everything your group encounters.

My fighter made the investment in a magic composite mighty bow for a reason. He even sunk a feat or two into it. Doing actions on the behalf of others is a a "waste" only for people who have an inherent bias against cooperative effort.

Sovereign Court

So in your parties you leave the fighter on the ground and fly up to the danger? Hell I bring it to us with any number of spells say hideous laughter, hold, dispel, etc etc....

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
deuxhero wrote:
Nicos wrote:


1)How many enemies can fly without wings, because against winged oponet a tanglefoot bag will solve the problem
PF changed the flight rules so that sadly no longer works. Maneuverability is now just a fly bonus and you don't have to move half your speed or hover with less than perfect.

You do however have to make fly checks. Hovering I think is DC 15. and that's per round.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I've yet to meet a problem that cannot be shot out of the sky or forced to fight on my terms where flight means nothing.


Don't worry OP I think Fighters suck too. It's not like their are potions of fly or boots or anything like that man. God forbid I have to rely on my teammates.


"It's a cooperative effort" is true, but missing one VERY important thing: "It's a cooperative effort between an average of 4 people".

Tell me: Why is the Wizard's attention devoted ENTIRELY to helping the Fighter overcoming problems with what is supposed his specialty? There are at least two other party members (plus animal companions and summons) that the wizard can benefit instead. What makes the Fighter special?


2 people marked this as a favorite.
deuxhero wrote:

"It's a cooperative effort" is true, but missing one VERY important thing: "It's a cooperative effort between an average of 4 people".

Tell me: Why is the Wizard's attention devoted ENTIRELY to helping the Fighter overcoming problems with what is supposed his specialty? There are at least two other party members (plus animal companions and summons) that the wizard can benefit instead. What makes the Fighter special?

I've read the whole thread and I'm not sure I get what you're saying. Tell us again why the fighter can't just shoot his bow at the flying creature?

What if the party is fighting an invisible creature? Will you complain because fighters don't get Blindsense?


those who fly with wings are somewhat more vulnerable than those that fly without them


deuxhero wrote:

To avoid further derails of this

http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz68d8&page=1?Synthesist-more-powerful-than-a -fighter

Of the melee classes, Fighters are one of the few without some inmate method of reaching flying foes short of blowing WBL AND actions on activating flight.

Isn't this really a problem in any situation where the fighter can't swing his sword at the foe?

What about an enemy shooting arrows from a tower?


6 people marked this as a favorite.

So, I seem to be seriously missing something here. Is the fighter in this example somehow unable to fathom how to operate a bow?


5 people marked this as a favorite.
deuxhero wrote:

"It's a cooperative effort" is true, but missing one VERY important thing: "It's a cooperative effort between an average of 4 people".

Tell me: Why is the Wizard's attention devoted ENTIRELY to helping the Fighter overcoming problems with what is supposed his specialty? There are at least two other party members (plus animal companions and summons) that the wizard can benefit instead. What makes the Fighter special?

In your ear you feel a tickle. It's strange sensation as if something is coming for you from far away. You focus your senses their and you can feel, rather than hear, a cacophony of voices all screaming in unison. You feel your mind crack and then shatter completely as the full glory of your black and oozing lords voice rends your soul in something like a cross between primal lust, black hate, and the most comforting love. You have been chosen, chosen to become his priest on this quaint three dimensional realm.


Not to mention that several fliying creature might want to do melee.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
deuxhero wrote:

"It's a cooperative effort" is true, but missing one VERY important thing: "It's a cooperative effort between an average of 4 people".

Tell me: Why is the Wizard's attention devoted ENTIRELY to helping the Fighter overcoming problems with what is supposed his specialty? There are at least two other party members (plus animal companions and summons) that the wizard can benefit instead. What makes the Fighter special?

Because helping others suceed is the Wizard's specialty. Wizards who aren't specifically built for it generally don't do that well in taking foes down themselves. They rearrange the battlefield, apply buffs, and do other things so that the rest of the party INCLUDING the fighter can get the job done.

Fighting is not the fighter's specialty. His specialty is the unmatched breadth of tools that he brings to combat. What exactly is your problem? Are you feeling less manly, because you're getting assistance from Mr. Robes and Pointy Hat? When I play a wizard or buffing caster, animal companions and summons are the last on my priority list. Because they're much easier to replace than the guy who's really good with his blade or bow.

What makes the Fighter special? What made King Arthur special? or Sir Kay? It's the character that's special, not the class. Because whatever you say about the fighter that makes him ordinary, one of a crowd, can easily be applied to every other class out there.

BTW, I GM a lot of PFS tables. it's been rare that it's ever been down to as few as four people. I'd worry alot less about what it's theoretically "supposed to be" rather than whether or not the group is getting it together or not.

I played an Arcane Trickster rogue/sorcerer in the last days of Living City. The party was ambushed by a nightwing rainingdeath from above. The Paladin whittling his thumbs with his holy blade had no complaints when I hit him with a fly spell.


Grab your mighty +4 fire composit longbow and shot ?
Fighters have the highest BAB, so even with low Dex and feats, they can still shot a lot of arrows. Also high strengt = high dmg boni.
Also they have a lot of feats, taking 1 or 2 range feats (deadly aim ftw) can't hurt :)


Two words for you buddy. Flying Mount.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

deuxhero is right. Fighters should be able to fly so they don't bother the wizard. They should also be able to spontaneously heal themselves so they don't bother the cleric. Oh and they should 8 skill points per level and expanded class skills so the rogue needn't trouble himself either.


therealthom wrote:
deuxhero is right. Fighters should be able to fly so they don't bother the wizard. They should also be able to spontaneously heal themselves so they don't bother the cleric. Oh and they should 8 skill points per level and expanded class skills so the rogue needn't trouble himself either.

Or get a bow.

Web Product Manager

Removed a couple posts and their replies. Don't call other posters trolls and try to play nice, please.


Rogues cant fly
Paladins cant fly
Rangers cant fly
Monks cant fly
Inquisitors cant fly
Gunslinger cant fly
Ninjas cant fly
Samurai cant fly
Crusaiders cant fly (unless they have a flying mount)
Bards cant fly (unless they use an action and UDM)
Clerics cant fly (they have spells that do things that are close but are subpar for combat)
Oracles cant fly (same as the cleric)
Most Barbarians cant fly (because they pounce)

So that leaves 7 out of 21 classes that can fly.
Druid
Sorcerer
Wizard
Alchemist
Magus
Summoner
Witch

Not really seeing your point. Not one Full BAB on that list.


@deuxhero: Let me ask you a question: How would you fix the fighter so that he can fly? Thinking about that might be more productive than whining in two threads about that he can't.


Dragonamedrake wrote:

Rogues cant fly

Paladins cant fly
Rangers cant fly
Monks cant fly
Inquisitors cant fly
Gunslinger cant fly
Ninjas cant fly
Samurai cant fly
Crusaiders cant fly (unless they have a flying mount)
Bards cant fly (unless they use an action and UDM)
Clerics cant fly (they have spells that do things that are close but are subpar for combat)
Oracles cant fly (same as the cleric)
Most Barbarians cant fly (because they pounce)

So that leaves 7 out of 21 classes that can fly.
Druid
Sorcerer
Wizard
Alchemist
Magus
Summoner
Witch

Not really seeing your point. Not one Full BAB on that list.

- Rangers can get a flying mount as a class feature (Roc, and there's an archetype for Hippogryph)

- Monks can effectively fly at level 20 if you use the original text for Cloud Step feat. Just mentioning for completeness's sake.
- I'd be shocked if Bards have no flight spell at all
- Clerics have air walk and several sub/domains will get them flight, like Travel and Feather. Air Walk alone is sufficient to just get in the air and pelt a melee monster w/ no flight, teleport, or ranged options.
- Oracles can also get flight in numerous ways. Revelation spell-like abilities, Wind mystery's armor, nature's animal companion... Newest way is to be a Half-Elf w/ Paragon Surge!
- RAW, Totem Warrior archetype lets a Barb have multiple totems with no downsides. That said, Dragon Totem freaking sucks. But they can get a flying mount if doing Ragelancepounce build, anyway.

So...Paladin, Rogue, Ninja, Monk (pre-level 20, or at all levels if your DM isn't cool), Inquisitor, Gunslinger, Samurai, and Cavalier. That's 8 classes that can't fly.
Of those, 2 (Cav and Samurai) can if they can just find some way to expand their mount choices somehow. Another 2, Rogue and Ninja, can get Sniper Goggles and deal full SA damage from the ground w/ a bow and thus don't need flight as much. Paladin can apply smite evil bonus to bow damage and ignore DR and add cha to attack rolls, which alone makes him a deadly archer regardless of anything else he invested towards it. Gunslinger is pure ranged death....

But I'll grant you those 8.

51 to 100 of 803 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / General Discussion / Fighter's can't Fly, and you can't melee what you can't reach. All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.