I have 2 gaming groups; both have had their campaigns kicked off at 1st level. However one group I've played with for years now and both seem to be headed down the same path: they have no idea or care to know their villains.
How do I overcome this? In both current campaigns I've forewarned them that there will be evil fey and that said fey often have very unique resistances. I've also strongly encouraged them to use knowledge skills at the outset of combat or immediately following. Also both campaigns were kicked off by me
1. asking specifically if there's anything they want to know about their current missions besides the intro
2. handing out clues to the identity and/or defenses of the main villains (followed the 3 Clue Rule to with at least one written hand out)
3. attacking the party with minions of the main villain to provide the possibility of an interrogation (this option was not pursued by either group).
What am I doing wrong? One group is fairly new to me so they may catch on but my long-term group...they're seasoned players, they're my age (which is to say "old fart") and I feel like I've been pretty obvious though that's admittedly subjective.
My fear was realized when, in the final battle, it became a real-time hour and 15 grind to defeat the BBEG despite a couple chances to use resources and contacts, re-supply, plan, etc.
Please offer your critiques on my GMing so I don't wind up with a TPK.
I'd say you're doing everything right as far as clues and whatnot. I use the three clue rule as well as lots of foreshadowing, opportunities for interrogation, etc. Basically, all the stuff you do.
It seems that it would be your players that are dropping the ball on this one. The noob group, they'll probably catch on, the long-term group however, is probably just in the habit of playing a certain way.
Before you begin play next time just address the problem. Tell them politely that they seem to be rushing into things uninformed and it's making the endgame drag and be generally not fun. Encourage them to do that researching and interrogating and tell them that it really will be more fun that way. Then, just keep on keeping on and if they seem to forget, remind them.
Also, if there is a TPK it will probably encourage them to do a little legwork next time.
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Curbstomp them.
Have them run into the villain and get horribly beaten and left for dead. Revenge is a powerful motivator. Of course, you need to make it believable that they would be spared. Most players nowadays find 'you are not worth destroying' to be the mark of a stupid villain, and that it ruins their immersion.
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I think the only time I've ever had players get to know a BBEG's strengths and weaknesses is if they weren't considered the BBEG at the time (knowledge checks notwithstanding).
Some possible ideas:
* Make the "BBEG" status ambiguous. If the character seems like an ally or at least possible ally, the players may pay more attention to what they can do since it might (or maybe does) help them directly.
* Have the players, in one fashion or another, observe the BBEG fight without actually participating. (Maybe the BBEG showed up during a larger conflict, such as army-on-army contact? Maybe the BBEG wasn't know to be the BBEG at the time but was indirectly helping the players -- though not on purpose -- so they didn't try and stop the BBEG.)
* Have the players face the BBEG and flat-out lose, big time, due to the fact that the most obvious way to fight them plays right to their strengths. The BBEG doesn't kill them because he found them amusing. They might leave them to bleed out, stabilize them and leave them, imprison them, etc.
* Have rumors that make the BBEG seem WAAAAY more bad-ass than they actually are. Do this by having the stories exaggerate their strengths and neglect to mention any weaknesses, possibly even attributing the work of others to them. If the players refuse to investigate, the BBEG is exactly that bad-ass. If they investigate properly, the BBEG is manageable if they take advantage of the weaknesses.
Remember that strengths can be enhanced heavily via tactical situations.
If you really want to have it hit them heavily, come to a session one day and lay down a single playing card (preferably a Joker) and say "This is your one 'get out of jail free' card. If you TPK, you can use this to rewind time and make different decisions leading up the encounter that kills you. You will not get another one." After doing this, proceed to have a BBEG with such an immensely overwhelming tactical advantage that even preparation might leave the fight difficult, and allow them to TPK. If you need tactical advice, try playing some famously hard games like Dark Souls and take note of how enemies are laid out relative to each-other. The basics are: Think of the most unfair possible thing, and do it. Then add one non-obvious way to mitigate it.
When dealing with BBEG's, there are two approaches I use:
1. BBEG sends harassing but useless minions in his/her name to confront the PCs every so often. I usually don't give much more than a name, prompting my players to search for a motivation for the attacks. Another variation of this is the BBEG is hands-on but prefers to taunt than kill or test the PCs mettle. It may be my players, but PCs usually respond to consistent attempts on their lives.
The basic goal of this approach is to provide an air of mystery to the BBEG by giving the minimal amount of information at the outset of the campaign.
2. This second approach is a bit more niche: The BBEG leaves a trail of destruction prompting the PCs to investigate. However, this approach heavily depends on how well players RP. If you have a bunch of CN mooks who couldn't give two copper what anyone else does, then this approach is useless.
If you're using specific enemies and such, just throw a couple baddies that would be fairly challenging at the party, beating them senseless, if need be. Be merciful at first. If the party doesn't adapt to their enemies, then decide what is best for everyone involved (you included). If you can live with hack and slash, then cater to your players. It's not the end of the world and you are always given other opportunities to add something to the game that will be interesting to you. If you feel that this is an ongoing problem and you're often bowing to the whims of your players, then stick to your guns and let them reap what they sow.
Above all, you're the GM and it's your world. You're the author of the PCs tale. Be flexible when it doesn't matter and don't cave when it does.
I, more or less, force my players to know what they're facing. I have them make Knowledge checks before the start of combat.
1. asking specifically if there's anything they want to know about their current missions besides the intro
2. handing out clues to the identity and/or defenses of the main villains (followed the 3 Clue Rule to with at least one written hand out)
3. attacking the party with minions of the main villain to provide the possibility of an interrogation (this option was not pursued by either group).
This situation may be less a fault in your DMing, and more a result of different expectations between you and your players. You are looking to build a story with at least some complexity (clues to be unraveled, mysteries to be investigated). Perhaps your players are looking for a more casual experience.
On the other hand, some things to consider based on the items quoted above:
1. Asking "anything they want to know" sounds very open-ended. If you really phrased it that way, I can imagine your players going blank and not seeing the things they could ask about. Better to prompt them more - perhaps call for a few specific knowledge rolls and give them bits of extra info, and ask if they have any other skills they think might let them figure out additional info.
2. Three clues sounds good. I assume from how you said this that these were obviously clues/info, not concealed in the background with other information. Still, it might be good to look at how obscure the clues were. If the players are being clueless, then choosing some clues next time that can be handed out in a short timespan, and that more obviously go together, might help your players realize this is what you're doing.
3. If you want the PCs to capture and interrogate an NPC, it helps to do something to prompt the players that this NPC is somehow sympathetic. If it's just a normal combat, most players won't think to do anything but whittle down the enemy's hit points til they're gone. You might want to try mentioning that an interrogatable enemy is acting particularly fearful and desperate, and/or is surprisingly young. You could foreshadow a foe as a relative of someone they like, or have a bounty for a particular NPC to be brought in alive. You could even have an NPC surrender outright (or blubber "I don't wanna die" or whatever seems appropriate). Regardless, if they ever do capture and interrogate an NPC, make CERTAIN that you have that NPC give them at least some useful information, or they won't bother to repeat that behavior in the future.
I, more or less, force my players to know what they're facing. I have them make Knowledge checks before the start of combat.
I've never forced them on it but I've said "this is a creature you don't immediately recognize but knowledge skills may reveal more about them" and gotten no reaction. I think they simply don't care or are so confident in damage that they figure it doesn't matter what the fey's DR is; they will murder it eventually.
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Design encounters with the monsters in mind. A shark out of water albeit is pretty scary and could hurt you but it still a fish out of water.
You know your players, you know their weaknesses, play on them as the DM. Hell most players weaknesses are common human weaknesses, that enemies can use to their advantage, so the story would probably not be compromised by your players calling foul on your use of "DM" knowledge. Villains always look for every advantage they can get, don't worry because your players are doing the same thing. Creating encounters that are bland and featureless becomes very boring very fast, your game will just become a video game like Gauntlet, waves of monster pour out and your players just kill them mechanically and collect exp and loot rinse and repeat.
There's so many tools in the game to screw players over here Ill throw out a few...
10th level Vampire fighter with an +2 Unholy/Viscous Greatsword, hell he slam attacks with his first attack since its the highest BaB then unloads 2D6+4D6 (irreducible)+ 1.5 STR damage attack. Nice and the sword is useless to any good party members...
Hey there's this pretty useful spell called CREATE PIT your players are using it you should too....
Lure players into cramped tunnels then attack them with monsters with burrow or that can braciate, nothing scarier than a party lured into a huge tunnel warren with so many twists and turns they don't know wich way is up then pounce on 'em with a family of 6 green dragons.
Have the party move into a large stone room, then lock doors and bum rush them from below with about 10 wraiths, hell flood the room too while your at it.
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A shark out of water albeit is pretty scary and could hurt you...
*ding dong* Candygram!
Curbstomp them.
Have them run into the villain and get horribly beaten and left for dead. Revenge is a powerful motivator. Of course, you need to make it believable that they would be spared. Most players nowadays find 'you are not worth destroying' to be the mark of a stupid villain, and that it ruins their immersion.
+1
Bring the smack down nothing motivates like an @%%whooping. We recently ran headlong into a liche's tomb screaming "Who needs to rest and form a plan! We can take him". We left screaming "Run for your lives." "I'm blind!" "I think it killed the cleric!" "Oh lord He ripped off my arm!".
The liche didn't bother to follow and destroy us because he needed to be somewhere and we just got in the way. He had a ritual going and timing was of the essence. It was the Dm's way of saying you guys are too stupid for me to kill. Although his liberal use of finger of death made me think that maybe he was bored of Dm-ing.
Umm...I'm trying NOT to TPK them. They're first level in both campaigns; a well-placed rat swarm would end either game w/out some lucky rolls.
Ex: the party has come to a mausoleum by the sea. The one thing they DO know of the hero buried within is that he was legendary for being a shielded warrior that held the line like a one-man 300 at a place called Felder's Gap (no one investigates despite starting the first scene in a library.) Upon arrival at said mausoleum I note numerous fluid figure motifs, women holding shields. I inform them that there is no time frame, there is a city nearby with a guildhall and library aligned with their Archivist's Guild and that on one well-rolled knowledge-arcane they note that there is a summoning circle oriented to summoning elementals...at the edge of the sea...with fluid figurines and motifs displaying water everywhere.
Long story boring the party gets to the final chamber, locked into a slowly flooding hall with...wait for it...water elementals. One player was ACTUALLY surprised. "I figured there'd be a giant snake or something; we're only first level!" 2 small water elementals but they melded in and out of the rising water seamlessly and the one PC's Sacred Touch trait got a serious workout.
And in that instance there wasn't even a super-fancy DR to worry about. The next villain is a wererat. The party is headed for a above & below ground ruin with said wererat commanding hordes of rats, rat swarms, ratkin and a few other wererats. He will become a recurring BBEG.
Short of "curbstomping" the PC's (thanks for conjuring THAT image btw TOZ; years of therapy down the tubes...) and then leaving them for dead for no apparent reason I can't really FORCE them to investigate him and following previous play as an example I can almost expect them to blunder into their first encounter w/him blind.
Here are some thoughts I had:
1. infect one of the players w/lycanthropy then have BBEG dangle the cure: this puts them into a love/hate thing w/the guy but might motivate SOME kind of investigation
2. interrupt BBEG at the task of beating down some more powerful hero NPC: the party so far has played like mooks that don't care about saving/interacting with NPC's, so this might backfire, but it might also reveal a silver allergy...
3. have the wererat ally with the party for some greater purpose: again, right now the players are being a little sandboxy and don't really care about "big picture" stuff, so there's a potential backfire here
What do you all think?
One of the techniques I use is pulled from another RPG.
Each player has to come up with three NPCs who can do something useful for the party that they cannot do for themselves.
Each antagonist (not villain, antagonist) also has a set of three helper NPCs.
Some of those NPCs will like and dislike each other independent of the rest of the plot. Some of those NPCs will take out vendettas against each other, cheat each other, lie to the party members to avoid being embarrassed, accidentally tell the truth to the party members and further a plot point...you get the drift.
The Three Clue Rule is fine - but do remember that you don't get to write the PCs. Make those clues almost, but not quite, as subtle as a double-tanker truck semi full of Pure Kaboomium getting T-boned by a red-hot chunk of metal piloted by a caecodemon.
Good points all, especially yours Pan. I knew it to be true but with only a couple days left til the next game was avoiding going back into re-writes. A GM's work is never done eh?
Oh well, it's only an outline anyway. I'll pull a Kingmaker here - they're already planning on delving deeper into my homebrew wilderness, so I'll just put some independent events in some hexes and ad lib everything else for the session, just to see where it goes.
Adaptability is important. As an example, I love epic games and plotlines that span months of play. My primary group of players have a hard time with a plotline that goes for more than a month of play time and a handful of levels. With them I now need to write and play smaller plot arcs even though I would love to do another epic campaign.
So next adventure, try the sandboxy thing and see where that takes you, that's a great idea. My suspicion is that they will likely still charge headlong into the things you have set up with minimal research.
I still say that before you sit down to play next time take a few minutes to talk to them about it. Politely suggest that they use their skills and resources to learn more about the enemies they will be facing or, and this is a big one in a sandbox game, the areas they will be exploring. This will allow you and your players to discuss what you, as a group, expect out of a game and I'm sure you can all reach a common ground and more fun will be had because of it.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Long plotline I ran where the party knew and loved to hate their BBEG.
They succeed in killing both 'Dragons' and restoring the trade routes to the town. They get back to the town, and find another adventuring band has run the gauntlet getting wagons of food to the town they were saving. Their leader is an Aasimar knight (I let them assume Aasimar = Paladin), with his two side kicks. Seeing the town is in safe hands, they go on their merry way.
In another town, they end up saving the life of the local weather witch, the Stormwarden. When they defeat the Green Dragon they discover he's one of the Aasimar knight's sidekicks. Now they're angry, they've been duped.
They're approached by a Woman in Blue, who offers to take them to her master, so they can get up to speed. After a trip under the mountains (which involved sidetreks) they emerge on the other side of the mountains into a bowl shaped environment where hoards of goblins are besieging a fortress. They're able to slaughter the goblin leadership (conviently their exit was close to the command tent) and the owner of the castle invites them in.
Yup, he's the Blue Dragon. :-)
He explains that he's sworn an oath to the Aasimar (now outed as the Red Dragon) that he'd not oppose him. At the same time, he now owes the PCs a debt, that must be repaid. So he will let them rest and recover in his castle, under a truce. He then leaves them alone, in his library, with the Red Dragon's plans 'accidentally' left out on the table.
They use these plans to ambush the Red Dragon and his body guards, and kill him.
Returning to the town they rescued (and turned over to the bad guys) they expect a fight. Only to find the Blue Dragon has taken the town, removed the Red Dragon's troops, and is currently rebuilding and reinforcing the town. The townspeople, having been traumatized by the CE Red Dragon's troops, are more than happy to accept the order of Lawful Evil.
After a couple of side adventures, they're contacted by the Blue Dragon again. He calmly explains his plans, and asks for their help. He wants to restore the status of the previous empire's faiths (Myrr, Loviatar, Tanil and Orcus) to positions of power, but the delegation from the Loviataran church is over due. Since the party cleric is a cleric of Loviatar, would the party be willing to find the delegate? They rescue said delegate from a group of kobold monks, but she's too injured to represent the church. So the PC cleric is elected. Expecting foul play (from the Blue Dragon) they prepare for the worst. They are able to foil an assassination attempt (from the Orcus delegation) and get the three remaining churches 'recognized' by the Blue Dragon. Then they find out that he had followers of a LN death god there as well, and with the discrediting of the Orcus church, he appoints them in their place. Once again, the BBEG has manipulated the heroes into doing his work for him.
Real life (and a TPK) killed the game soon after, but the party HATED the BBEG with a passion because not only did he oppose them, he manipulated them, used them, and was nice to them. He'd been taking Xanatos lessons. The funny thing? At the point the game fell apart, he was looking to recruit (most) of the party. Making the PC cleric the head of the official church of Loviatar. ("Yes Dorothy, you get a pope hat.") Appointing the bard at the head of the official histories, reinstating the order of the battle maidens under the ranger's command, etc etc. Now the conditions would have been impossible to meet (they'd have to kill their half orc barbarain, he was a purist) but he was always polite.
So my advice. Make it personal. Make the BBEG manipulate the heroes into doing his dirty work. They clean out a dungeon? His forces move into the empty space. Hired to retrieve a princess? It's the princess he plans to marry. Offer them jobs, complimenting the least favourable things. "You did a wonderful job cleaning out that nest of goblins. I've a tennament I need burned to the ground. Would you be willing? Please. What's the difference between Goblins and Halflings?"
Have the villian run Xanatos gambits where he wins either way. Don't have him gloat, just smug satisfaction that he got his way. Even when the party finds a third option that sets his plans back, don't have him lose his cool. They'll hate him soon enough.
One that I have done that sometimes works and sometimes doesn't is this. Let them be stupid down grade the BBEG just a bit so they don't die, but try to get them all beat up a bit. Then give them the critique with their xps. Tell them specifically the things they could have done to make the job easier.
"Well, you did manage to finsih the BBEG. I'm not going to give the XP bonus for good tactics because their weren't any. Just so you know for the future:
An easy DC=15 knowlege dungeoniering check would have told you he had DR that was bypassed by cold iron (of which you had 2 in your treasure).
At least 3 of the minions could be easily interrogated to find out he is terrified of cold iron.
If you had read through the papers in his office you would have found out that he has been secretly buying up and hiding cold iron weapons.
I told you at the begining that fey have odd resistances and damage reduction.
Remember the bad guys are just going to get tougher investigation and tactics are necessary."
Next time, don't take it easy on them.
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One that I have done that sometimes works and sometimes doesn't is this. Let them be stupid down grade the BBEG just a bit so they don't die, but try to get them all beat up a bit. Then give them the critique with their xps. Tell them specifically the things they could have done to make the job easier.
"Well, you did manage to finsih the BBEG. I'm not going to give the XP bonus for good tactics because their weren't any. Just so you know for the future:
An easy DC=15 knowlege dungeoniering check would have told you he had DR that was bypassed by cold iron (of which you had 2 in your treasure).
At least 3 of the minions could be easily interrogated to find out he is terrified of cold iron.
If you had read through the papers in his office you would have found out that he has been secretly buying up and hiding cold iron weapons.
I told you at the begining that fey have odd resistances and damage reduction.Remember the bad guys are just going to get tougher investigation and tactics are necessary."
Next time, don't take it easy on them.
That is a bit far. There is no reason to tell players they are dumb or try and push them towards a style of play that doesn't come naturally imo. I have had GMs like this before and I tell you it feels insulting. I prefer one of two approaches myself. First adapt to the party. If they just want to take a load off and have a good time and not think about it too much, just throw them a bone. Point is to have fun right? Lets say that really doesn't sit right with you the GM and its important that you have fun too. Then I suggest not pulling any punches. Kill them over and over until they quit or learn from the mistakes.
This advice is of course assuming you have been giving hints and clues and you are still not getting the desired results from the game. I think Mark has reached this point.
Thanks for this thread Mark Hoover. It has some wonderful input and was a great read.
As for your issue, I think it might be worth having a "pre-game" conversation with the players. Talk to them and have a open conversation about your concerns.
I have found that there have been times where just asking the players how they feel about the game brings some interesting feedback. Also by being honest with them about your concerns you might find they are unsure what to do or that they are clearer on what is to come than you thought. Either way, I am sure the conversation will be good for you and them.
Good Luck
I would agree with Pan on there being different expectations.
Sit down away from the game with them and ask them what they want. Tell them you've been trying to give them clues, but they don't seem to be picking up on them. If they want a sandbox, wait until they find an enemy THEY think is interesting.. who THEY think is worth following up on. Then build on that.
And reward them when they *do* perform any research. If they ask a question like "how do we kill THAT?", then bring out the knowledge checks. Also, reverse it. Drive home the value of the Knowledge by asking "how does your character know that" if they decide they know what gets past some DR, etc.
Use knowledge more liberally in general. If they ask "what kinds of monsters live in these parts," that's a knowledge check. Start with less combat-oriented stuff, like "where would the goblins be hiding?" leads to a Knowledge check to know they're coastal creatures.
Umm...I'm trying NOT to TPK them. They're first level in both campaigns; a well-placed rat swarm would end either game w/out some lucky rolls.
Of course you don't want to TPK them, but they seem to be challenging you to TPK them. If you can't force them to think before they attack, the only tool to do this is TPK. If your party can't be smart about their approach to combat, they need to learn that it's dangerous. Nothing works better than PC Death.
Back in the days of 1e, very few characters seem to reach high levels because they tend to die somewhere before getting there and usually before they have access to spells that will bring them back. It was accepted as to how dangerous adventuring was, and expected to happen.
It seems your Pathfinder players are spoiled into thinking this is no longer true. You have to teach them that it's still true.
When my players act stupid, death is the result, but seldom is there a TPK, because once the first or second character dies, the rest seem to figure it out. Give them a chance to escape and you won't have TPK only a partial 'PK'. Use this, and your problem should be solved.
... That is a bit far. There is no reason to tell players they are dumb or try and push them towards a style of play that doesn't come naturally imo. I have had GMs like this before and I tell you it feels insulting. I prefer one of two approaches myself. First adapt to the party. If they just want to take a load off and have a good time and not think about it too much, just throw them a bone. Point is to have fun right? Lets say that really doesn't sit right with you the GM and its important that you have fun too. Then I suggest not pulling any punches. Kill them over and over until they quit or learn from the mistakes.
This advice is of course assuming you have been giving hints and clues and you are still not getting the desired results from the game. I think Mark has reached this point.
It was not intended to be insulting. That may be stating it a bit more blunt than usual, but it sounds like these players (like me) do not catch hints very well. Some of us need a simple statement of here is how the module writer assumed you might try to get some information.
From the players side, being told where I could have done better is less insulting than just killing me over and over without saying anything. That would just make me feel like the GM is out to get me.
Ok - as for what they want: I've had that conversation with both groups.
Group 1/Seasoned players wants to go on missions, Indiana Jones style, and either uncover numerous individual dungeons and ruins to explore or have one megadungeon broken into sections - hack n slash mostly. The challenge here is that these are the ones that charge in, use no knowledge checks and despite having set mission objectives are getting sandboxy on me as the game goes on (I'll adapt the storyline and let them wander). I think this group may actually respond to the TPK some of you have suggested.
Group 2/new (to me anyway) wants definite exploration of a smal area they can roam around in and have a different adventure each month. Very laid back, almost hippie kind of play style, heavy roleplaying and non-optimized characters; not even optimized for roleplaying. These guys are more challenging to my mind; they seem eager to use their skills and want to roleplay but...they come to no concrete conclusions. In the last game they got tons of great info but at one point I just sat there, staring, while the mused over the clues. Normaly this leads to SOME kind of deduction, even wrong, that I can use to move the plot forward but they honestly didn't make any. This group seems to want to be led, so I'm going to try and Xanatos them and give them a super-helpful NPC, one that's even kind of into one of the PC's, but in the end turns out to be bad.
Wererat: he will make an appearance w/my seasoned group (group 1). If they follow their usual pattern they should be completely destroyed to the last w/in an hour.
Manipulator NPC: she's a business woman. Maybe a little...suggestive from time to time, but she's not in Friendness, she's in BUSINESS. She'll provide a good anchor point, has plenty of spells and contacts for the aspiring Loremaster wizard et al. Now I just have to figure where her business is really taking them all...
As Matthew Morris said, "Make it personal."
How well does your Enemy know the PCs?
Does he threaten their friends and family? Send them snide letters? Plant false clues that lead to dangerous red herrings? Ask minions to report about their magic items and then steal or sunder these?
If you Enemy bothers to know the PCs, the PCs will reciprocate.
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... That is a bit far. There is no reason to tell players they are dumb or try and push them towards a style of play that doesn't come naturally imo. I have had GMs like this before and I tell you it feels insulting. I prefer one of two approaches myself. First adapt to the party. If they just want to take a load off and have a good time and not think about it too much, just throw them a bone. Point is to have fun right? Lets say that really doesn't sit right with you the GM and its important that you have fun too. Then I suggest not pulling any punches. Kill them over and over until they quit or learn from the mistakes.
This advice is of course assuming you have been giving hints and clues and you are still not getting the desired results from the game. I think Mark has reached this point.
It was not intended to be insulting. That may be stating it a bit more blunt than usual, but it sounds like these players (like me) do not catch hints very well. Some of us need a simple statement of here is how the module writer assumed you might try to get some information.
From the players side, being told where I could have done better is less insulting than just killing me over and over without saying anything. That would just make me feel like the GM is out to get me.
I might have spoke with a little bit of bias there. Sorry about that mate. I forget not everyone plays like my group does. We dont use XP and I never give out DCs. We try to keep the game part of PF under the hood and let the story steal the show. I guess when I heard your advice I started having flashbacks to my not so favorite gamer days. Maybe I suffer from PTSD from a gamey killer GM. I get now that you meant to be helpful.
As Matthew Morris said, "Make it personal."
How well does your Enemy know the PCs?
Does he threaten their friends and family? Send them snide letters? Plant false clues that lead to dangerous red herrings? Ask minions to report about their magic items and then steal or sunder these?
If you Enemy bothers to know the PCs, the PCs will reciprocate.
Ironically my seasoned group's last campaign is where I tried this and prompted part of my worry. In the first game session the party saves a bunch of teens from the crypts beneath a haunted abbey. An ancient evil; a former nun-turned-ghoul who's been in stasis beneath the ruins for decades has awoken and the party finds her at the end of the adventure as she's about to consume one of the kids while her "children" (minon ghouls) are about to receive the others in a pit.
So as the adventures went on I revealed the evil lady, when she was alive, had been the last of a noble line...one that was directly tied to the church of one of the PC's. Meanwhile the BBEG takes a direct hand; using spells she masquerades around town learning of these "heroes". The party's main NPC in town was the main teen they saved.
Well after a couple unrelated adventures and the ghoul lady'd learned what she needed...first she started a cult in the town, a cult of gluttony. This distracted the party from the fact that a terrible disease had befallen the town. While dealing with the cult all of the key clerics in town were slain or corrupted and at the end the cult leader praised his "ghoul queen" for his power.
Then, w/the clerics gone they had to cure the disease. I used a modified Hollows Last Hope and the party hunted all over for the ingredients. Along the way they learned that the fungus causing the infection could ONLY have come from the ancestral estate of the lady's noble line.
Returning to save the town once more they received a taunting letter threatening that the ghoul queen had only just begun. Finally when they went to visit their NPC contact the boy had been kidnapped, semmingly by his own fiancee; the fiancee was killed and replaced by the ghoul lady.
Now when I say they "learned" all this it wasn't that they were trying to, only that I revealed it. No one took notes so between games they'd constantly forget. I started doing recap emails and summarizing them at game starts but they still couldn't keep it straight. My most frustrating moment was when a new high-priestess arrived from the one PC's church arrived at the end of the game. I had meant for her to be a red-herring character but got so fed up (the PC had earlier been given the mission to go take out the ghoul lady for heresy) that the PC's weren't moving the game along or actively pursuing the ghoul lady that said NPC high priestess called the party together and literally laid out ALL the clues:
you fought a once-living noble beneath an abbey of our faith
she committed heresy and is now undead
she's a kind of undead that creates ghouls
ghouls were created here in town
a cult of gluttony took credit for said ghouls and associated themselves with a "ghoul queen"
another disease was caused by a fungus only found on her once noble estate
you received a taunting letter from her, on old paper monogrammed w/her family crest, tied to a corpseflower which only grows in the swamps just outside said noble estate
evidence of the undead, possibly ghouls, beat up and took Baden (the PC's NPC contact), heading out of town toward the swamps bordering her estate.
The high priestess looked around, glaring and shouted "go to her estate and SEE if she's hiding out there and if she is DESTROY her!"
The players were mad I was railroading them. It was...challenging. The game melted down soon after and I took a 3 month break from gaming...
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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@Mark Ugh. Nothing worse than people who don't get proactive, then complain they're being railroaded.
For your first group, if they want to be Indiana Jones types, give them a Belloq style 'friendly nemesis'.
The second group sounds like they need a Xanatos. :-)
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M squared: I concur. My second group just met yesterday and I completely made up the adventure off the top of my head, so I didn't even know the villain. I have no right complaining that they didn't roll any knowledge checks on the lycanthrope they fought. That being said the wererat (I've had them on the brain now so I guess I now have 2 wererats in my games) got away.
I'm going to bring him back. I didn't even have a stat block for him so I don't know anything about him other than he wields a pair of sickles 2wf style and he has masterwork studded leather and a decent Dex.
I'm going to flesh him out and make him a rogue/warrior of some kind. Since the party's never seen him outside of rat form I'll bring him in Xanatos style; He's got some kind of legitimate business out there, a healer perhaps or an inkeeper. He honestly wants to help...but only to the point where he endangers the party. He'll find out about them, the fact they've got family in the next town or an old, doddering mentor in a nearby tower.
No I've got it...a Robin Hood type! He claims he's a kind-hearted highway man, gives the party security in the wilds, even hears that their home town nearby is under attack and offers his men to aid the cause! He recognizes the party even if they don't know him, so he's careful not to use his sickles within view of them. But then he and his men get to their home town, mingle w/the locals, and the rats and diseases start to follow...
Oh man this is going to be good! Now, I've got to plan an ambush on the road, a really big one they couldn't possibly just fight their way out of. Then, just as things look bleak, from the treeline...ZWIP! Down come the arrows of Ratty Hood and his Merry Ratmen! Only they'll all look human. GT's my friends; GTs...
Maybe if your first party is all about hack and slash, an evil campaign could be fitting