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The whet stone does not say it only grants a bonus to Blades category of weapons. It grants a bonus to any weapon with a blade.Using this logic, you can use a whetstone on a greatclub, as long as you add a decorational blade.
A blade on an arrow and is not decoration. It is large, heavy and sharp. If you wield it in your hand you use it as a dagger. Your argument doesn't hold.
Nothing says that improvised weapons arent weapons. The ruled regarding what is and isnt a weapon is awfully vague.
So how would you use a bullet as a weapon?
"Ammunition" is a subheader, just like reach weapons or double weapons. The rules are slightly different, but the rules do not exclude any of them from still being weapons.
You wouldn't. The design of a firearm is different from the design of a bow. You are comparing apples to oranges.
An arrow, if we're speaking on real life terms now, can easily be used to stab something if that is your intent, even with field points (target shooting points do not have blades, but are still pointed).
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So how would you use a bullet as a weapon?
"Ammunition" is a subheader, just like reach weapons or double weapons. The rules are slightly different, but the rules do not exclude any of them from still being weapons.You wouldn't. The design of a firearm is different from the design of a bow. You are comparing apples to oranges.
An arrow, if we're speaking on real life terms now, can easily be used to stab something if that is your intent, even with field points (target shooting points do not have blades, but are still pointed).
Yes, maybe. But rules state arrows are ammunition, bullets are ammunition. If arrows can be used to stab something then bullets can be used to punch something, yet you don't agree.
Why would arrows deserve special treatment and bullets not. By pf, all ammunition is same, only designed for different weapon.
This is mechanic, not real life.
On a side note, I agree that they can be sharped because sharpening is similar mechanic which grants masterwork quality but arrows alone are not weapons. If used as a weapon they would be used by your own hand which "transforms" arrow into weapon.
So how would you use a bullet as a weapon?
"Ammunition" is a subheader, just like reach weapons or double weapons. The rules are slightly different, but the rules do not exclude any of them from still being weapons.You wouldn't. The design of a firearm is different from the design of a bow. You are comparing apples to oranges.
An arrow, if we're speaking on real life terms now, can easily be used to stab something if that is your intent, even with field points (target shooting points do not have blades, but are still pointed).
Yes, maybe. But rules state arrows are ammunition, bullets are ammunition. If arrows can be used to stab something then bullets can be used to punch something, yet you don't agree.
Why would arrows deserve special treatment and bullets not. By pf, all ammunition is same, only designed for different weapon.
This is mechanic, not real life.
:) You're absolutely right. It doesn't make any sense.
That's why one of my main points is that the rules are already illogical by providing damage listings for bows rather than arrows.
This is why I propose using common sense and logic rather than RAW, and why I disagree with the "draconian" interpretation that arrows can't be sharpened.
The difference between arrows and bullets is that arrows can be used as melee weapons per RAW. Bullets cannot.
A sling with a bullet in it can be used as a melee weapon with the Whip Slinger feat, I believe.
I know you cannot throw firearm bullets to any effect, but I wonder if there is anything that cites throwing sling bullets without a sling? Those suckers are rather heavy, after all.
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The difference between arrows and bullets is that arrows can be used as melee weapons per RAW. Bullets cannot.Can I get a quote from rules please.
Arrows: An arrow used as a melee weapon is treated as a light improvised weapon (–4 penalty on attack rolls) and deals damage as a dagger of its size (critical multiplier ×2). Arrows come in a leather quiver that holds 20 arrows.
Arrows and bolts are the only ones listed this way. All other ammunition are not available to be used as melee weapons. For instance:
Bullet: The ammunition of most one-handed and two-handed firearms, firearm bullets typically take the form of small balls of lead or some other metal.
or
Bullets, Sling: Bullets are shaped metal balls, designed to be used by a sling or halfling sling staff. Bullets come in a leather pouch that holds 10 bullets.
The difference between arrows and bullets is that arrows can be used as melee weapons per RAW. Bullets cannot.Can I get a quote from rules please.
Not a definitive quote, but some supporting evidence of arrows potential use in melee.
Another feat that would allow it is catch off-guard, though that requires a judgment call from the DM.
I should note that in the feat stabbing shot, damage is not listed for the arrow used; it is loosely implied that the damage is the same as if you has shot the arrow from the bow. I was unable to find any references on the forum to the damage dealt. 1d8+Str seems excessive, though it is a melee attack. I wonder if you can use finesse with that attack. I would say an arrow is a light weapon.
EDIT: Ninja'd, and with much better information! Cheers!
My interpretation is that the arrow is part of the weapon, much like the axe blade is part of the axe. Bladed weapons can be sharpened with a whetstone, so in effect you sharpen your bow by sharpening the arrows it shoots. Blunt arrows cannot be sharpened, just as bullets cannot be sharpened.
Modern broadheads are razor sharp. They are designed to penetrate an animal easily and cause bleeding. Field points would be useful for penetrating heavy armor, where more delicate broadheads would be ineffective.
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@StrangePackage:
Searing Arrow
.....Source: APG/Magic Items/weapons
Ammo can be magically enhanced and it bestows that enhancement to the launcher that fires it because you're not just using a bow; you're using a bow and arrow. Just as the arrow imparts its flaming enhancement to the attack from what is strictly defined as the weapon in your argument, a sharpened arrow bestows its bonus to the weapon it is fired from.
I don't recollect stating that ammunition couldn't be enchanted. I don't recollect saying ammunition couldn't be masterwork, of made of special materials. I don't know the point you're trying to make here. There are clear rules for the creation of such items. Rules that, by the way, are different than for weapons. Rules specifically for ammunition. While you might classify that as hypertechnical or splitting hairs, I see that as a faithful observance of RAW. If they were not different things, the developers would not have bothered to write different rules for them.
Again, the RAW:..."...sharpen a blade..."
It doesn't specify a weapon from the Blades category of weapons, simply the generic term 'a blade'."...Honing a blade... and 'grants' the 'weapon' a +1 bonus..."
Again, it states that the action is to 'hone a blade'; the blade, not the entire object. It goes on to state that this process 'grants' the 'weapon' the bonus. You'd sharpen the 'blade' of a shortsword and that grants a +1 bonus to the weapon based on what was done to its functional end. If the sword, for whatever reason, had non-functional blades you could sharpen them till the cows come...
The point is that ammunition is NOT a weapon. I cannot apparently say this enough. You argue that it should be the "functional part" of the bow and arrow- I would really like to see one reference to the "functional part" of any other weapon in Pathfinder. Or I would challenge you to demonstrate any other weapon in the game that requires ANOTHER weapon to be functional.
Bows are the weapons. Arrows are the ammunition. The chapter on Magical Items makes that very clear. Ammunition may have it's own properties apart from the Bow- by your argument, that one is the "functional end" of the other, that shouldn't be the case. Unless you want to suggest that I can begin enchanting my pommel, hilt, and blade independently from one another.
Ranged Weapons and Ammunition: The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies.
Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon.
You exhibit a classic flaw of reasoning. You came to the conclusion that it would be OP to allow it so you tried fabricating reasons to deny it. Instead, argue the point that you're actually thinking; that you think allowing such an action would be system-breaking and why. Then go on to suggest that while such an action may comply with RAW, it goes against RAI and that a specific change or special limitation should be made regarding the case. But don't pop in and say that it violates RAW based on logical fallacies because we've shown quite clearly that it is in line with both RAW and basic common sense.
I don't actually follow this assertion, but apparently you have misunderstood something.
My opinion on whether or not this is a question of OP or system breaking.
De minimis - from the latin, meaning minimal or trifling in nature. This is not overpowering. It is not system breaking. And it is also neither RAW nor RAI, in my opinion.
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Looking at this from a RAW stance (and being a PFS player, that holds a fair amount of weight for those games), I've got to weigh in with saying no, you can't, with a caveat. It's not because I view this as OP or system-breaking. It is because I agree with strange_package in his assessment.
RAW written an arrow fired from a bow is ammunition, not a weapon. that is it's classification as per RAW.
Here's the caveat, and pulled from a quote above:
Arrows: An arrow used as a melee weapon is treated as a light improvised weapon (–4 penalty on attack rolls) and deals damage as a dagger of its size (critical multiplier ×2). Arrows come in a leather quiver that holds 20 arrows.
If you use an arrow as an improvised melee weapon, sure, I would allow the sharpened blade of the broadhead to gain the +1, as you are using it in a way where it takes on the weapon classification.
Fired from a bow though, nope. As far as RAW goes.
For a home game, sure, what the hell. As stated at the beginning of the post, I don't think it's OP or system breaking, so sure, if a player wants to have their PC sharpen their arrows for days on end for a single use bonus (if that), go for it. But it would not be RAW.
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If you use an arrow as an improvised melee weapon, sure, I would allow the sharpened blade of the broadhead to gain the +1, as you are using it in a way where it takes on the weapon classification.
Fired from a bow though, nope. As far as RAW goes.
Quick question:
What would you consider the difference between the arrow piercing an opponent driven by your hand, versus piercing an opponent driven by the bow string?
The head of the arrow hasn't changed.
Quick answer: the classification of the arrow as per RAW. Fired from a bow, it is ammo, used in melee it is an improvised melee weapon.
I'm not going to argue the logic of the point, because truthfully, every now and then you will encounter some aspect of RAW which will make you scratch your head and go "Huh?". In those instances, for a home game, house rule it and keep going. For a PFS game, though, it is RAW all the way.
Several ways to adjudicate this either way. I always try to us game balance. Since I believe it doesn't unbalance the game, I would allow it. But it would take a looong time to sharpen a score or more arrows.
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This is yet one more reason I prefer 2nd edition...
On the equipment list, the bow itself lists no damage. It's the arrows that have the damage listed (which also opened things up for different types of arrows that did different amounts of damage - which is much more realistic IMO)...
This was also true for crossbows, slings, and darts...
A good majority of the RAW in Pathfinder are just rules imported directly from 3rd edition, and 3rd edition did away with a lot of these "minor" rules just to simplify and streamline the game (e.g. unfortunately it's much easier to say that your character simply has 25 arrows instead of saying that he has 10 sheaf arrow and 15 flight arrows and remembering what arrow does what amount of damage)...
And (IMO) the game has suffered from this over simplification of the rules; and it is arguments such as this one (logic vs. RAW) that highlight this aspect the most...
YMMV and all that...
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Ammunition is listed under weapons. It is in the same list as reach weapons and double weapons.
If those qualify as weapons, then the ammunition for any given projectile launcher qualifies as a weapon. They are lumped together in the same RAW that you are citing. There are special rules for making ammunition masterwork and for enhancing it because making a single disposable weapon cost the same as a non-disposable weapon is insane. It's going to break when it's used.
We're just repeating ourselves, now.
I've clicked the FAQ button. I suggest everyone else do the same.
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Here's my take on this (surprisingly) fire-starting issue...
Whetstones work on blades because they increase the hone of the blade, thus providing a +1 to damage. This +1 is only applicable to the first time the weapon is used after the blade is sharpened.
Arrows are stored in a quiver when not in use. Point down. Usually crammed together. I think that extra hone to the "blade" of an arrow would be damaged by the cramped storage of the arrowheads on top of one another, jostling about in a quiver.
A quiver with an extradimensional space (a la an efficient quiver) might be able to hold arrows that would hold their extra damage bonus after whetstone use. I would also rule that any arrow that was honed and then kept out (maybe notched in a bow ready to be fired) also could be treated as described by the whetstone.
Otherwise, I would try to advise a player to invest in a composite bow in order to get extra damage.
-Dink
Arrows, and anything else, can be used as an improvised weapon.
Improvised Weapons: Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses an improvised weapon in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object. To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match. An improvised weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
Now, there are two basic stances one could take from this.
1. Improvised weapons are weapons. Heck, it's literally in their name! It refers to "weapon" over and over in the description, and gives them characteristics that assume they are weapons (size, damage, nonproficiency penalties).2. Improvised weapons are not weapons. It is noted in the description that these are "not crafted to be weapons", hence they should not be regarded as weapons but as something else that may be used to make attacks and that just has an unfortunate name.
Either interpretation has issues.
The first interpretation means that you can indeed sharpen arrows (assuming their tip is seen as a blade), but far more confusing, it means that nearly any object can be used with Quick Draw, despite Quick Draw specifically having this line: "Alchemical items, potions, scrolls, and wands cannot be drawn quickly using this feat". So you could draw a an elixir of cure light wounds (as an improvised weapon) but not a potion of cure light wounds. This of course makes no sense.
The second interpretation carries a whole LOT of problems; many basic rules won't work at all on improvised weapons that you think would.
For example, you would gain NO strength modifier on damage with improvised weapons:
"Strength Bonus: When you hit with a melee or thrown weapon, including a sling, add your Strength modifier to the damage result."
I think it's fair to assume that improvised weapons should be treated as weapons unless otherwise noted, and simply assume that when the rules don't take this into account (such as wetstone and quickdraw) we'll have to make a judgement call based on balance, logic, and if any, show of intent.
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The only thing this thread accomplishes is to tell me who's game to avoid playing in.
Wow. This is weird. Um, real world physics and game mechanics. Wow. This is a bizarre argument. So what exactly is a chef's steel? It's a long whetstone. It can sharpen chef's knives, butcher's knives and even your salad fork. And I believe that after fifteen minutes of work you can have perfectly sharpened ammunition (shuriken, crossbow bolts, arrows, or even a scorpion whip) as per the ammunition count listed in the equipment tables. I've only seen razor sharp broadheads and the not-for-killing target arrows at sporting goods stores. The arrows of Pathfinder, which are based on the real world arrows in common use in the year 1205a.d. (and 983a.d. and 756b.c. etcetera) CAN ALL BE FREAKIN' SHARPENED!!!! Geeze. And you can keep them in your quiver without losing the +1 damage advantage. Does anybody know of a new 1st level character who doesn't have the rich parents trait that can afford a composite longbow(+1str)? I've never seen one.
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One way for a GM to settle this is to rule that arrows are already razor sharp and so whetstones don't improve them. Blades get dull and dented with use, but arrows typically are one-use items and are made as sharp as you can get them with a whetstone. That's actually pretty true in a real-world sense. If you buy a broad-bladed arrow, it's pretty much razor sharp already.
Of course if you apply this logically, then arrows that you find and reuse would take a -1 on their attack until you whetstoned them back up. Which would also be fine with me.
Only problem with that AD is that the blade of a sword is now some how not only less sharp thn the arrow but also magically doesn't blunt even if you never whetstone it.
Of course if you apply this logically, then arrows that you find and reuse would take a -1 on their attack until you whetstoned them back up. Which would also be fine with me.
Umm... whetstoning is about damage. Not attack.
Only problem with that AD is that the blade of a sword is now some how not only less sharp thn the arrow but also magically doesn't blunt even if you never whetstone it.
Not quite getting what you are saying. My suggestion is very simple, and only involves arrows (and perhaps crossbow bolts) and would not change whetstone use from RAW for any purpose. It's just a way to "explain" why whetstones don't improve arrows or bolts. That's all.
I've got no desire to debate, defend or exhaustively explain it. It was a simple suggestion for a fast and plausible way for a GM to stick to RAW.
That's all.
Of course if you apply this logically, then arrows that you find and reuse would take a -1 on their attack until you whetstoned them back up. Which would also be fine with me.Umm... whetstoning is about damage. Not attack.
Right you are. Mental typo there. Thanks for clarifying. The suggestion still applies.
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Any which way this gets argued, the bottom line is it is a point of confusion and, while not a big deal for a home game (yes, I would allow it for a home game), it becomes problematic for organized play. PFS lives and dies by RAW, so a clarification for that front is really needed.
If you are posting in this thread and have not already marked the initial post for a FAQ candidate, please do so.
I woudl say no, since I remember reading it was only for Slashing weapons. Don't remember where it was though.
And I would allow a character to have -one- sharpened weapon on his body, his iconic sword / dagger /...
If you want one REALLY sharp arrow, sure. But this is not RAW.
Can anyone link where this topic was answered in the FAQ?
Seriously.. I have to say that marking a thread as "Answered In FAQ" and not posting a link to WHERE it was answered in the FAQ just ticks me off. The FAQ is not all that small, or easy to search. If someone took the time to find this (as is implied by the "Answered in FAQ Tag"), then a simple link would be nice.
That was until recently how things were cleared from the FAQ list. More than likely it want answerd and a new thread clearly stating the question would be the best way to proceed.
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its a 6 month rez, not the worst, but here's my take on why you shouldn't be allowed to sharpen ammunition.
when crafting them, they'd be as sharp as the could be. they're new, its not like they're being re-used, or mass market manufactured by machines. they're individually crafted arrow heads for instance.
Since they're handmade, either the game would account for a craftsman who is already spending a day crafting arrows using the craft rules, to make them sharp and sharpen them himself. All arrow/bolt ammunition would already come with an inherent +1 untyped bonus to damage if that was possible. Or we can realize whetstones aren't intended for that, and can't be used on ammunition. Even at low levels, the enemies have plenty of downtime, and have access to the same arrows and whetstones. If enemies "sharpened" them all, players would cry foul. PCs would be taking more damage. But it would be insane _not_ to sharpen every arrow or bolt since its ammo, its a one time use buff on one time use ammo. Its not like once they sharpen them, they degrade over time, or the sharpening is only good for a day. The guy at the general store could pre-sharpen all his arrows before he sells them, so it wouldn't even take effort from adventurers to be more lethal.
Whetstones are already ridiculous: you sharpen a blade and its good until its taken one swing. arrows only ever get used once, they're ammunition ( which can be used as an improvised dagger yea. ) They have "whetstones" in world of warcraft, they're a nice minimal buff for blacksmiths, but they only work on blades as in bladed weapons, and they're a limited duration buff not a one time use buff. but you can't use them on arrows there either.
so rather than make every bladed piece of ammunition ( including shuriken ) sharpened, and change the base ranged piercing/slashing damage of the game, lets keep sharpening ammunition off the table. otherwise whats good for the goose is good for the gander, and statistically PCs will be getting shot at more than individual bad guys will. Hell, we don't want to see developers start placing sharpened spears in pit traps do we?
Yes, if sharpening arrows (and shuriken) has a permanent effect and any random peasant, beggar or child, can sharpen about 50 a day, why would anyone with a gold piece to spare not buy all their arrows with +1 damage?
its a 6 month rez, not the worst, but here's my take on why you shouldn't be allowed to sharpen ammunition.
*raise thread*
when crafting them, they'd be as sharp as the could be. they're new, its not like they're being re-used, or mass market manufactured by machines. they're individually crafted arrow heads for instance.
Since they're handmade, either the game would account for a craftsman who is already spending a day crafting arrows using the craft rules, to make them sharp and sharpen them himself. All arrow/bolt ammunition would already come with an inherent +1 untyped bonus to damage if that was possible.
You are making an invalid assumption, namely the amount of time taken to craft the arrows.
Per Craft rules, minimum DC to craft an arrow (not just the arrow head) is 12. If you have the least able crafter taking 10 to meet the DC, it works out to 11 minutes 40 seconds to make one arrow. [A better crafter takes less time.] Since the whetstone takes 15 minutes to apply, you are more than doubling the time to craft a sharpened arrow. That minimum crafter can make 41 arrows a day, or 18 sharpened arrows a day. A better crafter, making them at skill check of 20 makes 68 regular arrows or 21 sharpened arrows. The difference only gets worse, the better the crafter. [Skill check of 30: 102 regular vs. 24 sharpened.]
If you invest in the skills to make an arrow, then you can take the extra time. However, a shopkeeper is not going to take more than twice the time to make arrows just a little bit better, when for the same or less time, he can make twice the number of arrows and double (or triple or ...) his profit. This shopkeeper would also have to track which arrows were sharpened and which were not.
/cevah
Would this +1 damage bonus be efected by critical hits, on a sword or arrow? And if aplied to arrows would it stack with composite bows bonus damage?