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A whetstone allows you to sharpen a blade by sliding it against the stone at a precise angle. Honing a blade with a whetstone requires about 15 minutes of work and grants the weapon a +1 bonus on your damage roll the first time you hit with it. This only works on nonmagical blades.
Can you sharpen arrows with whetstones to get the damage bonus? They typically have sharp bladed tips, right? (Or at least the barbed ones do.)
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I don't know about historical precedent but almost no modern arrows use the "arrowhead" shape anymore, they are simply sharp pointed tips the width of the shaft that attach to the top, or are simply part of the shaft itself. I believe it is so they arrow can get better penetration.
But as far as sharpening them goes, I would allow it if the PC invested the time into it.
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I don't know about historical precedent but almost no modern arrows use the "arrowhead" shape anymore, they are simply sharp pointed tips the width of the shaft that attach to the top, or are simply part of the shaft itself. I believe it is so they arrow can get better penetration.
But as far as sharpening them goes, I would allow it if the PC invested the time into it.
This isn't correct. Hunting arrows still often use broad heads and even 4 bladed versions of such. A blade of the end of the shaft is a basic arrow.
I do however agree that you can sharpen them. You can use it as a dagger so it is obviously bladed. However if you get a enchanted bow then I would say they are magical when fired and the bonus wouldn't apply. I am going to remember that though. Great low level way to boost archer damage.
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They specifically list arrows as (in both Core Rulebook, Ultimate Combat, and now in Ultimate Equipment) ammo, not stand-alone weapons.
Arrowheads are not listed anywhere as a weapon (or even ammo).
I have already not allowed this at a PFS table, and I will continue to not allow it until I specifically hear otherwise. Silly PCs, Trix are for kids!
RAW, an arrow is not a blade
True, but some versions have a blade, in the same way an axe has a blade without being a blade.
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A whetstone allows you to sharpen a blade by sliding it against the stone at a precise angle. Honing a blade with a whetstone requires about 15 minutes of work and grants the weapon a +1 bonus on your damage roll the first time you hit with it. This only works on nonmagical blades.
Can you sharpen arrows with whetstones to get the damage bonus? They typically have sharp bladed tips, right? (Or at least the barbed ones do.)
I have bolded the part I find dispositive.
An arrow is not a weapon- it is ammunition.
Thus, a whetstone couldn't be applied to it.
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That doesn't fly with me, StrangePackage. Thanks to the rules on improvised WEAPONS, everything is a weapon, even an arrow.
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The whet stone does not say it only grants a bonus to Blades category of weapons. It grants a bonus to any weapon with a blade.
Arrows have blades. They do piercing damage and can be enchanted. They can also be used as melee weapons.
Arrows: An arrow used as a melee weapon is treated as a light improvised weapon (–4 penalty on attack rolls) and deals damage as a dagger of its size (critical multiplier ×2). Arrows come in a leather quiver that holds 20 arrows.
I see no reason why the cannot be sharpened. Besides it is hours of work for a small bonus.
I say no as well but my reason from logic side is that arrows do piercing damage so they are not blades ... blades do slashing
Is a rapier or a short sword not a blade then, gourry187?
Seems like this is one of those places were you have to step in and use common sense. If your arrow has a metal head it seems like a Whet stone would be fine.
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I don't know why whetstone didn't just state
A whetstone allows you to sharpen a blade by sliding it against the stone at a precise angle. Honing a blade with a whetstone requires about 15 minutes of work and grants the weapon a +1 enhancement bonus on your damage roll the first time you hit with it.
Sure, I'd allow it, sounds fine. Gives the martial something to do while the casters are resting , praying, preparing spells, etc... (ring of sustenance FTW). Even then, you'll get like...a dozen arrows? Two dozen?
Those will be used up fast, and it's only +1 damage. Not a big deal.
If the wording of Abundant Ammunition spell allows you to turn every arrow into a +1 damage arrow effectively, then it might be a bit much...
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That doesn't fly with me, StrangePackage. Thanks to the rules on improvised WEAPONS, everything is a weapon, even an arrow.
An improvised weapon is not a weapon by nature. That's like saying because I can stand on my dining room table to change a lightbulb, my dining room table is a ladder. A ladder is a ladder- my table may be improvised to use as a ladder, but that is not its nature.
In every table, in every core rule book, arrows are slated as ammunition. That is their nature. That is what they are intended to be. That an arrow could also be a lockpick, or a toothpick, or a dagger, or a signal flare, or any number of other things, does not make it not, at its core, ammunition.
By your argument, you could sharpen an oar. An oar has blades. An oar may be used as an improvised weapon. Would you allow someone to sharpen an oar with a whetstone for additional damage?
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That doesn't fly with me, StrangePackage. Thanks to the rules on improvised WEAPONS, everything is a weapon, even an arrow.An improvised weapon is not a weapon by nature. That's like saying because I can stand on my dining room table to change a lightbulb, my dining room table is a ladder. A ladder is a ladder- my table may be improvised to use as a ladder, but that is not its nature.
In every table, in every core rule book, arrows are slated as ammunition. That is their nature. That is what they are intended to be. That an arrow could also be a lockpick, or a toothpick, or a dagger, or a signal flare, or any number of other things, does not make it not, at its core, ammunition.
By your argument, you could sharpen an oar. An oar has blades. An oar may be used as an improvised weapon. Would you allow someone to sharpen an oar with a whetstone for additional damage?
I so want to see a half-orc ferryman with a vorpal oar.
That doesn't fly with me, StrangePackage. Thanks to the rules on improvised WEAPONS, everything is a weapon, even an arrow.An improvised weapon is not a weapon by nature. That's like saying because I can stand on my dining room table to change a lightbulb, my dining room table is a ladder. A ladder is a ladder- my table may be improvised to use as a ladder, but that is not its nature.
In every table, in every core rule book, arrows are slated as ammunition. That is their nature. That is what they are intended to be. That an arrow could also be a lockpick, or a toothpick, or a dagger, or a signal flare, or any number of other things, does not make it not, at its core, ammunition.
By your argument, you could sharpen an oar. An oar has blades. An oar may be used as an improvised weapon. Would you allow someone to sharpen an oar with a whetstone for additional damage?
And by your logic, you can't threaten surrounding squares with improvised weapons, since they are not considered weapons.
Seems we are at an impasse.
(And to answer your question, yes.)
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No, an improvised weapon is an item that may be used as a weapon, but at the cost of diminished damage and the assumption that your character would not be proficient (barring the use of feats like Catch Off-Guard etc). When wielding one, you are not unarmed, but neither are you wielding a real weapon. You are wielding an improvised weapon. Because you're not unarmed, you threaten per RAW.
The very definition of "improvised weapon" indicates that an improvised weapon is different from an intended weapon.
"Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses an improvised weapon in combat is considered to be non-proficient with it and and takes a -4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object." (emphasis added)
The RAW consider improvised weapons to be objects that are used in combat, not weapons.
If the text of the whetstone said that it granted the object a +1 bonus to damage, you might have something. It does not say object- it says weapon.
Weapons are objects, and some objects may be used as weapons, but not all objects are weapons.
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Broadheads were used for war and are still used for hunting. Medieval broadheads could be made from steel, sometimes with hardened edges. They usually have two to four sharp blades that cause massive bleeding in the victim. Their function is to deliver a wide cutting edge so as to kill as quickly as possible. They are expensive, damage most targets, and are usually not used for practice.From Wikipedia:Arrowhead
Standard combat broadheads do indeed have bladed edges. The whetstone doesn't specify that it needs to be used on a weapon but rather on a blade (not blade the weapon category, blade as in a sharp edge). Sharpened arrows, used as ammunition, grant the +1 damage bonus to the weapon they are launched from (the bow).
+1
The whetstone doesn't reference weapons, only blades.
Weapon Specialization (Combat)
You are skilled at dealing damage with one weapon. Choose one type of weapon (including unarmed strike or grapple) for which you have already selected the Weapon Focus feat. You deal extra damage when using this weapon.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, Weapon Focus with selected weapon, fighter level 4th.
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus on all damage rolls you make using the selected weapon.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.
So your saying that this feat only applies damage if i hit them with my bow not when i shoot them with it?
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So, what about shuriken?
That's a closer question because shuriken, by RAW, are weapons. I haven't given it much thought. If pressed, I would say yes. While the wording makes them analogous to ammunition in a lot of ways (troublingly in terms of crafting/enchanting/special materials), they are defined in RAW as a thrown weapon which have "sharpened edges" per their description.
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How nice for him or her. That does not in any way change the fact that in UC, CRB, and now UE, arrows are ammunition, not weapons.That doesn't change the fact that the whetstone doesn't give the property to the weapon directly; it gives it to the bladed edge. The bladed edge, in turn, grants the bonus damage to the weapon; either the weapon it's a part of (sword, dagger, etc) or a weapon it's used from (bow). You're splitting hairs trying to assert that arrowheads can't be sharpened because it has to be used directly on the weapon (the bow, in this case).
Actually, yes, it does give the property to the weapon. It indicates as much in the text.
"Honing a blade with a whetstone requires about 15 minutes of work and grants the weapon a +1 bonus on your damage roll the first time you hit with it."
This is even assuming for your sake that the word "blade" in the text is not limited to the use of "blades" in the weapon groups for fighter- Light Blades and Heavy Blades, neither of which includes arrows (or, for that matter, shuriken). The argument could be made that those two lists comprise the whole of weapons to which a whetstone might be applied to garner that +1 to damage on the first hit.
Regardless, though, the plain text states that it grants the weapon a +1 bonus. Gamers must assume that authors say in the rules what they mean, and mean what they say. They said weapon. They did not say object, they did not say projectile, they did not say ammunition.
They said weapon, and weapon, we must assume unless directed otherwise, was what they meant.
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This discussion has come down to semantics and a difference of opinion over interpretation of RAW.
Personally, I find StrangePackage's interpretation to be far too strict. In my opinion, a ranged weapon without ammunition is no longer a weapon (especially by Pathfinder standards, less so IRL), thus the ammunition is simply a part of a weapon in the way that an axe/hammerhead or a shaft is part of a weapon.
Were a player allowed to treat a longbow as a quarterstaff or a crossbow as a club in the same manner that modern military weapons are designed to be used to bash and bludgeon when ammo is depleted, then I might think differently. As it stands, A bow is defunct without arrows, and therefore not a weapon (unless you have improvised weapon).
The rules don't state that bows used as improvised weapons are damaged by such use but logic dictates that there would be serious repercussions for that. Logic also dictates that you can sharpen a bladed edge on a broadhead, even though the rules do not say that you can.
If you read RAW so strictly, you can pressure players into rules lawyering. Sometimes it pays to go with a logical ruling than a RAW reading.
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"Semantics" is the idea that words have meaning. Weapon is a defined term in Pathfinder. As is ammunition.
You can say that my interpretation is draconian, but my response to that is "so?"
They used a word with a well known and understood meaning, in place of any other word that they could have used. Why should we assume that they intended anything other than what they said? IMO, we should not.
This brings all new wonderous discoveries to mind!
Whetestone a Razor for that extra +1 to your shave! Use it on your plow to really till that land right! Every think to yourself "These sheep are such a pain to sheer!". Well NOT ANYMORE!
Seriously... its a +1 damage ONCE for 15 MINUTES of work. Not exactly game breaking. Strictly RAW I tend to agree with StrangePackage, but honestly who cares. Its a small buff that has no effect the second you get a +1 bow.
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This brings all new wonderous discoveries to mind!
Whetestone a Razor for that extra +1 to your shave! Use it on your plow to really till that land right! Every think to yourself "These sheep are such a pain to sheer!". Well NOT ANYMORE!
Seriously... its a +1 damage ONCE for 15 MINUTES of work. Not exactly game breaking. Strictly RAW I tend to agree with StrangePackage, but honestly who cares. Its a small buff that has no effect the second you get a +1 bow.
I agree that this argument is, for the most part, de minimis. Except, for example, in a PFS game where there is indeterminate downtime, allowing a level 1 character with 2 cp to spare to accumulate and hone some 200 arrows for +1 each and every shot. Then, it becomes pretty much pure cheese.
The fact that I disagree with you should not be an insult. Don't take it as such. I used your name because you're the voice that stands out in the discussion.
We should not "assume" anything. We do, but we shouldn't.
Is the term "weapon" well understood? I don't think so. Perhaps as defined in Pathfinder, which it isn't, technically. If you want to get down to it, the only thing that borders on a definition of the word is from the CRB under the equipment section. Ammunition is listed in the "Weapons" section.
From the common longsword to the exotic dwarven urgrosh, weapons come in a wide variety of shapes and sizes.All weapons deal hit point damage. This damage is subtracted from the current hit points of any creature struck by the weapon. When the result of the die roll to make an attack is a natural 20 (that is, the die actually shows a 20), this is known as a critical threat (although some weapons can score a critical threat on a roll of less than 20). If a critical threat is scored, another attack roll is made, using the same modifiers as the original attack roll. If this second attack roll exceeds the target's AC, the hit becomes a critical hit, dealing additional damage.
Weapons are grouped into several interlocking sets of categories. These categories pertain to what training is needed to become proficient in a weapon's use (simple, martial, or exotic), the weapon's usefulness either in close combat (melee) or at a distance (ranged, which includes both thrown and projectile weapons), its relative encumbrance (light, one-handed, or two-handed), and its size (Small, Medium, or Large).
And further on in the section, it lists reach weapons, double weapons, thrown weapons, projectile weapons, and ammunition.
So if we're going to continue assuming (and we all will assuming something) then I will assume that because ammunition is listed along with all of the other weapons, that a piece of ammunition is indeed considered a weapon.
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Foghammer- please, do not construe my abrupt posting style for being incensed, angry, offended, or what have you. I just tend to be blunt. I do not offer offense with my posts, nor do I take offense from folks disagreeing with me. That doesn't make me mad. It just makes them wrong ;)
If you can tell me how much damage an arrow does (not being used as an improvised weapon, just the base damage for an arrow), I will agree that an arrow is a weapon.
Foghammer- please, do not construe my abrupt posting style for being incensed, angry, offended, or what have you. I just tend to be blunt. I do not offer offense with my posts, nor do I take offense from folks disagreeing with me. That doesn't make me mad. It just makes them wrong ;)
If you can tell me how much damage an arrow does (not being used as an improvised weapon, just the base damage for an arrow), I will agree that an arrow is a weapon.
Fair enough.
You are still making an assumption here. There is a logical disconnect between the fact that the longbow entry states its damage as 1d8 (for a medium creature) when in fact, the bow does nothing but launch the projectile. The arrow striking the target is what deals damage.
So, my counter argument is thus: do you have your players throw their bows at their targets in order to deal damage, since arrows deal none?
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Foghammer- please, do not construe my abrupt posting style for being incensed, angry, offended, or what have you. I just tend to be blunt. I do not offer offense with my posts, nor do I take offense from folks disagreeing with me. That doesn't make me mad. It just makes them wrong ;)
If you can tell me how much damage an arrow does (not being used as an improvised weapon, just the base damage for an arrow), I will agree that an arrow is a weapon.
Fair enough.
You are still making an assumption here. There is a logical disconnect between the fact that the longbow entry states its damage as 1d8 (for a medium creature) when in fact, the bow does nothing but launch the projectile. The arrow striking the target is what deals damage.
So, my counter argument is thus: do you have your players throw their bows at their targets in order to deal damage, since arrows deal none?
From your CRB quote- "All weapons deal hit point damage."
Arrows, per their entry in the CRB, deal no damage of themselves. They are ammunition- necessary but incidental. They cannot be considered weapons because they do not do hit point damage, as the CRB states all weapons do.
Now, they are the instrument by which a projectile weapon such as a bow does damage. Without ammunition, a projectile weapon is rendered much less useful.
The definition of Projectile Weapon and Ammunition, from the SRD (I would quote the CRB, but I don't have it at work):
Projectile Weapons: Most projectile weapons require two hands to use (see specific weapon descriptions). A character gets no Strength bonus on damage rolls with a projectile weapon unless it's a specially built composite shortbow or longbow, or a sling. If the character has a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when he uses a bow or a sling.
Ammunition: Projectile weapons use ammunition: arrows (for bows), bolts (for crossbows), darts (for blowguns), or sling bullets (for slings and halfling sling staves). When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action; crossbows and slings require an action for reloading (as noted in their descriptions). Generally speaking, ammunition that hits its target is destroyed or rendered useless, while ammunition that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost. Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them, and what happens to them after they are thrown.
Thus, projectile weapons ARE weapons, and deal damage via the use of ammunition. Further evidence of this can be seen in the text of Reduce Person, which states in part:
Melee and projectile weapons deal less damage. Other magical properties are not affected by this spell. Any reduced item that leaves the reduced creature's possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage (projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them).
Thus, projectiles (ammunition) do not deal damage of themselves, and are not weapons. There is no logical inconsistency to this.
You evaded my question and provided plenty of information that really proves nor disproves anything.
There is a logical disconnect in the fact that a bow is considered the source of damage when the arrow is the part of the weapon that actually strikes the target. The longbow itself does not inflict damage if you strike a creature with it. Yet it is listed as dealing 1d8 damage. Piercing damage, at that! There's nothing pointy or sharp on a bow (well, I suppose one could put spikes on a bow, though I don't know how that would affect the normal function; that's neither here nor there).
Requiring me to provide you with text that shows an arrow with a damage listing separately from the bow is quite similar to me asking you to show me how a bow deals damage without the arrows, because it DOES have damage listed. Neither of our arguments will be satisfied because they are impossible to answer. They are impossible to answer because the RAW is illogical.
Bows and arrows are a set, and should be treated as such. A bow WITH ARROWS deal piercing damage; otherwise it deals no damage; does it cease to be a weapon when your arrows are depleted?
Piercing damage is dealt by bladed weapons. Arrows have blades. You can use whetsones on blades. Therefore you can use whetstones on arrows.
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Projectile weapons USE ammunition. No one is suggesting otherwise- that is the means by which a ranged projectile weapon achieves damage.
The point that you are either purposely ignoring or have missed entirely is that as written, and logically, ammunition is not a weapon. It is ammunition. The two are linked, but separate and distinct from one another. A rifle is a weapon. The bullet it shoots is ammunition. Bullets, in and of themselves, are not weapons- but a rifle remains a weapon whether or not you have bullets.
Is this not akin to saying that if a person is grappled, the two handed sword they are carrying ceases to be a weapon, because it cannot be brought to bear while the wielder suffers the grappled condition? This is not the case- it is still a weapon, it is just rendered ineffectual by circumstances. The same is true of a projectile weapon that lacks ammunition- it has not lost any of the properties that allow it to be an effective weapon, but it does not have the circumstantial requirements that allow it to be brought to bear.
If an arrow may be whetstoned, then by your logic it would cost 300.5 gp for a masterwork arrow, and 2300.5 for a single +1 arrow. Likewise, there is an enormous amount of pure dicta in the text relating to Greater Magic Weapon and other similar spells regarding the effects of the spell on ammunition versus weapons.
Why would the developers make separate rules for weapons and for ammunition if, as you argue, they are both weapons?
No, an archer who has no access to arrows has a stick with string on it. Unless it can be used in a manner similar to our shared understanding of modern military rifles (and it cannot) it has ceased to function as a weapon. It is inert. Even a greatsword that is broken in two has a sharp edge or point. A bow without arrows can do nothing of use in combat from a realistic point of view (Hawkeye, Legolas, and others notwithstanding).
That you bring up masterwork and magical enhancements is another point that favors ammunition as weapons. There is no section for ammunition enhancements, they use weapon enhancements.
You are making a much finer distinction between ammunition and other weapons than the rules as written do. Ammunition has its own cost for being made masterwork and having enhancements applied to it. That fact alone does not mean that ammunition isn't a weapon. The fact that it is listed under "Masterwork Weapons" DOES lend to the idea that ammunition is considered to be a weapon in its own right.
"Ammunition" is a subheader, just like reach weapons or double weapons. The rules are slightly different, but the rules do not exclude any of them from still being weapons.
