In actual practice, how do you Gm's find your group's use of light.
Do they even bother with torches and lanterns? Do they just rely on the light spell all the time, since it is 0 level?
If they do use torches and lamps how do they do on tracking the supplies? do you trust them to track it themselves OR do you just hand wave it all away and not worry about the supply costs?
I've been toying with the idea of bumping light back up to a 1st level spell so that mundane light sources become more attractive.
I never use light. I prefer dancing lights. It's like having four torchbearers that can travel 100+ feet from you.
Also, who tracks torches?
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The light spell won't set those forboding-looking webs on fire, or deter animals, or start a brush fire, or melt ice, or...
Same, presuming DL is on the spell list for the class I'm playing (Cleric/Oracle/Druid don't get it). Also don't generally bother tracking torches or lamp oil unless the party's in a low-supplies situation (trapped in a cave with no way out, just had all their gear stolen and are scraping things back together, etc.).
The light spell won't set those forboding-looking webs on fire
spark. Set a piece of wood on fire and use that to light the webs if they're too big for the spell to do it.
or deter animals
Most of my groups don't want them deterred, they want the XP, heh.
or start a brush fire
spark again.
or melt ice
Got me on this one... except gathering up brush to make a fire pile, then spark again.
I have a player who's really fond of spark, is it obvious? =P
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I never use light. I prefer dancing lights. It's like having four torchbearers that can travel 100+ feet from you.
Also, who tracks torches?
Tracking light conditions (As a GM) I would say is probably one of the most important tasks the party should def. be tracking. Concealment, and general changes to perception are crucial in storytelling. It's all about what the PC's know, can see, and react to really.
But to answer the thread, I've usually seen at least 1 person making sure there is a light source, at least for characters that need one. At higher levels the PCs tend to have more low light and darkvision anyway, at 10+ you'd be looking at true sight for at least one PC. As far as torches, I usually see them rarely, more often they pull out a sunrod.
Tracking light conditions (As a GM) I would say is probably one of the most important tasks the party should def. be tracking.I never use light. I prefer dancing lights. It's like having four torchbearers that can travel 100+ feet from you.
Also, who tracks torches?
I think he's more meaning "Who tracks the costs of 1 cp (I forget exact cost and at work, so guessing) torches, rather than just assume the party has one any time they have access to a town/reasonable source of sticks and brush?"
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I have a player who's really fond of spark, is it obvious? =PI used spark to blow a player up with his own black powder once.
Good times. Good times.
*stamp of approval*
I think he's more meaning "Who tracks the costs of 1 cp (I forget exact cost and at work, so guessing) torches, rather than just assume the party has one any time they have access to a town/reasonable source of sticks and brush?"Tracking light conditions (As a GM) I would say is probably one of the most important tasks the party should def. be tracking.I never use light. I prefer dancing lights. It's like having four torchbearers that can travel 100+ feet from you.
Also, who tracks torches?
I do. If they didn't buy enough torches or other light source, let them adventure in the dark.
I never use light. I prefer dancing lights. It's like having four torchbearers that can travel 100+ feet from you.
Also, who tracks torches?
Tracking light conditions (As a GM) I would say is probably one of the most important tasks the party should def. be tracking. Concealment, and general changes to perception are crucial in storytelling. It's all about what the PC's know, can see, and react to really.
But to answer the thread, I've usually seen at least 1 person making sure there is a light source, at least for characters that need one. At higher levels the PCs tend to have more low light and darkvision anyway, at 10+ you'd be looking at true sight for at least one PC. As far as torches, I usually see them rarely, more often they pull out a sunrod.
Not tracking light conditions. tracking torches. They're easy enough to make that unless there is a specific reason, like being in a cave for an extended period, we don't even bother. It's a behind the scene things.
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I do. If they didn't buy enough torches or other light source, let them adventure in the dark.
*** IT IS DARK ***
You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
I do. If they didn't buy enough torches or other light source, let them adventure in the dark.I think he's more meaning "Who tracks the costs of 1 cp (I forget exact cost and at work, so guessing) torches, rather than just assume the party has one any time they have access to a town/reasonable source of sticks and brush?"Tracking light conditions (As a GM) I would say is probably one of the most important tasks the party should def. be tracking.I never use light. I prefer dancing lights. It's like having four torchbearers that can travel 100+ feet from you.
Also, who tracks torches?
Out of curiosity, do you also track ammunition? That's something I stopped doing very quickly, decided it wasn't worth the headache of nitpicking the minutiae. I consider them about on the same par.
I do. If they didn't buy enough torches or other light source, let them adventure in the dark.*** IT IS DARK ***
You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
*thumbs up*
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I do. If they didn't buy enough torches or other light source, let them adventure in the dark.I think he's more meaning "Who tracks the costs of 1 cp (I forget exact cost and at work, so guessing) torches, rather than just assume the party has one any time they have access to a town/reasonable source of sticks and brush?"Tracking light conditions (As a GM) I would say is probably one of the most important tasks the party should def. be tracking.I never use light. I prefer dancing lights. It's like having four torchbearers that can travel 100+ feet from you.
Also, who tracks torches?
Had another character (same player, funnily enough) who didn't bother with light sources. He depended on the party. They went into a dungeon...and were teleported to random areas in the underground maze. This character, a human rogue with daggers and no light sources, not even a flint and steel or tindertwigs, was killed at 7th level by two CR 1/3 skeletons.
*thumbs up*I do. If they didn't buy enough torches or other light source, let them adventure in the dark.*** IT IS DARK ***
You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
Sweet.
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Out of curiosity, do you also track ammunition? That's something I stopped doing very quickly, decided it wasn't worth the headache of nitpicking the minutiae. I consider them about on the same par.
I track this stuff up until around level 5-6. When I ran Kingmaker, these things were very important at first - a big part of the adventure is managing resources as you're exploring a vast wilderness. I had calendars, rolled up weather (and then modified it slightly to make it make some meteorological sense to the non-meteorologically inclined like myself), and mundane dangers were very real for those early levels.
There was a tornado, there were multiple blizzards, there were cold temperatures that would have been dangerous for the PC without proper equipment or taking shelter. Heck, I even attacked them with shambling mounds during thunderstorms for the option of a few cinematic shambling mound lighting strikes.
Once third level spells become available, I get a lot less exact about that stuff as a GM. As a player I still track things, though.
Out of curiosity, do you also track ammunition? That's something I stopped doing very quickly, decided it wasn't worth the headache of nitpicking the minutiae. I consider them about on the same par.I do. If they didn't buy enough torches or other light source, let them adventure in the dark.I think he's more meaning "Who tracks the costs of 1 cp (I forget exact cost and at work, so guessing) torches, rather than just assume the party has one any time they have access to a town/reasonable source of sticks and brush?"Tracking light conditions (As a GM) I would say is probably one of the most important tasks the party should def. be tracking.I never use light. I prefer dancing lights. It's like having four torchbearers that can travel 100+ feet from you.
Also, who tracks torches?
Yes, sort of. I'm not looking for super precise one for one accounting, but that multi-shooting archer who gets through 8 three round combats when he started with 20 arrows really bugs me. Resource management is part of the game.
EDIT: Ninja'd by Jess who said it very well indeed.
Yeah, situationally it's important. I presume that my players stock up on a couple of days' worth of basic equipment - ammunition, rations, torches, etc. - any time they reach town (or in KM, Oleg's), but once they go through that they actually have to track it if they're in a situation where it's not easily accessible. But in most games that's not an issue, and it's just excess bookkeeping.
As soon as my character can afford one, she gets an everburning torch. No worries.
I do. If they didn't buy enough torches or other light source, let them adventure in the dark.*** IT IS DARK ***
You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
I haven't played that in AGES.
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Technically, if you don't cast light on yourself you would need something that gives light when you are separated or when you are in an anti magic zone. Torches are used primarily in my opinion for trolls. After a troll is down light a torch and leave it to burn on top of the large remains for 1d6 damage a round. That is if there is no other fire source or you could be in for a long fight.
Out of curiosity, do you also track ammunition? That's something I stopped doing very quickly, decided it wasn't worth the headache of nitpicking the minutiae. I consider them about on the same par.
I absolutely track ammo. A lot of the complaints I see on these boards where people say this or that is too powerful, I believe, actually stems from not "nitpicking the minutiae". Archers are effective. They become ridiculously so if a GM doesn't nitpick. If you don't use cost of arrows, and lighting, and cover from allies as well as enemies. Wizards become actual gods if you don't make them pay the cost of writing each spell into their spell book. The nitpicking is part of what helps balance the classes.
@Kirth Gersen - Speaking of gods, a Zork reference in this day and age, well done sir, well done.
I don't see nitpicking in our group, but then we don't have people trying to pull one over on the GM either.
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Ioun Torch at earliest opportunity.
I enjoy having my hands free.
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I would really really really like to keep better track this kind of thing, but honestly I only ever bring up the lighting conditions when it is dramatically relevant or tactically relevant. The players usually cast light on their equipment (It's such a common spell - my current party has 4 out of 6 people who can cast it) and every so often I ask them in order to keep them honest, but at a certain point it becomes burdensome to worry about who has the torch. Skyrim dungeons still manage to be creepy and dramatic even though there's a ton of improbably braziers and candles everywhere - I guess its just a concession to convenience over realism.
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I haven't played that in AGES.
I include a lot of Zork references in my games.
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Ioun Torch at earliest opportunity.
I enjoy having my hands free.
This or I play Archon Blooded Aasimars =b
That wasn't a Zork reference - that was an ADVENT reference
It would be a direct ADVENT reference if
Light is free, adds no weight and lasts all day long (with recastings), and requires no hands.
Torch has a neglible price, weighs 1lb (which early on sucks if you are packing many of them), last only an hour, and requires a hand to hold it.
Everburning Torch: not cheap at 1st level, weigh 1lb, lasts all day long, and requires a hand to hold it.
Ioun Torch: not cheap at 1st level, weighs nothing, lasts all day long, and requires no hands to hold it. We have a winner. :)
At first level I use light spells. At 2nd level I use Ioun Torches.
- Gauss
I don't keep track of ammunition or funds. The players themselves do. After several times of looking to my archers and informing them "You reach back to your quiver to draw an arrow and find it empty..." They learned to track it on their own.
I used to track their money too, but eventually I started asking them "Are you sure you can afford that? After purchasing XX, XX, and then you picked up XX in Falcon's Hollow... I think your purse is a little light." Then they started doing it on their own making 'bank statements' on loose notebook paper in a | PP | GP | SP | CP | format and just do the math down the line.
Torches and other light sources I track and after they ran out of torches a few times and I scarred them half to death with a well described encounter with spiders in the dark (because we all hate spiders) they switched to sun rods since they last longer and don't fizzle out in water.
Keep in mind also that players have a tendency to discard torches and sunrods once they are consumed. This leaves clues that there were there and has their scent on it. I used this tactic to allow some ogres and worgs to track don the PCs who ventured into places they shouldn't have but left to go restock.
Everburning torches, Sun rods,or weapon with continual flame on it....
I always have a few of the first two and like the third...
The light spell won't set those forboding-looking webs on firespark. Set a piece of wood on fire and use that to light the webs if they're too big for the spell to do it.
or deter animalsMost of my groups don't want them deterred, they want the XP, heh.
or start a brush firespark again.
or melt iceGot me on this one... except gathering up brush to make a fire pile, then spark again.
I have a player who's really fond of spark, is it obvious? =P
Yes, but you see how much extra work is having to be done with the spark spell? Wood doesn't turn into a torch just because you hold a match to it. Wood wrapped in cloth-soaked pine resin does. It doesn't matter how you light the torch, it's the fact that you have a torch.
As for the animals, a good DM gives you experience for resolving the encounter, not just killing everything in it. If you can resolve it without a fight, you're still due the XP.
Oh, and this also exacerbates the problem of people thinking that non-spellcasters can't do anything. There's nothing for me to hack with my sword, so I'll just sit here on my butt while the wizard does stuff, says the fighter. Nuh-uh.
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That wasn't a Zork reference - that was an ADVENT referenceIt would be a direct ADVENT reference if ** spoiler omitted **. As it is, it's indirect to ADVENT, and a direct reference to how Zork treats the phrase.
I think the original Zork reply was more along the lines of
Disclaimer: I originally played Zork/Dungeon on a DECSystem-20; while I did (and still do) have the Infocom versions for several platforms, there were several differences between versions.
Everburning torches, Sun rods,or weapon with continual flame on it....
I always have a few of the first two and like the third...Why your weapon? Then you show everyone where you are.
A cufflink is much more practical
Bullseye Lanterns are fun when combined with Pyrotechnics, turning its effect into a cone (so you aren't hit by it).
Swords are easy to sheath as needed. No light to be found.. just need a LITTLE light? Only pull a little blade out.
plus, it's just a cool effect that scares the bad guys into thinking they are gonna get slashed and burned...
Out of curiosity, do you also track ammunition? That's something I stopped doing very quickly, decided it wasn't worth the headache of nitpicking the minutiae. I consider them about on the same par.I absolutely track ammo. A lot of the complaints I see on these boards where people say this or that is too powerful, I believe, actually stems from not "nitpicking the minutiae". Archers are effective. They become ridiculously so if a GM doesn't nitpick. If you don't use cost of arrows, and lighting, and cover from allies as well as enemies. Wizards become actual gods if you don't make them pay the cost of writing each spell into their spell book. The nitpicking is part of what helps balance the classes.
I consider spell scribing significantly different from cost of nonmagical ammunition. Magical, of course, is a completely different ball game.
But then I'm not among the people complaining about power levels. ;)
And I'm not exactly sure what cover has to do with this >_>
I just keep dancing lights running and call it a day.
0-level
Hands free
cost: zero
Can direct it
** spoiler omitted **
You might be right -- my memory is getting hazy after all these decades, and I was seriously addicted to Enchanter for a while.
I've seen torches sometimes. Dancing Lights is popular in my groups (as are races with darkvision), but on the occasion that somebody has several other cantrips they want to prepare/learn instead, torches find their use.
I just keep dancing lights running and call it a day.
0-level
Hands free
cost: zero
Can direct it
Cost is a spell slot. What if you have a bunch of other 0th levels you want to prepare?
And I'm not exactly sure what cover has to do with this >_>
It's all the same thing. I've seen too many GM's not use range penalties or not give the player -4 per obstruction (3 party members in front of you? That's -12 to hit). They just sort of hand wave it while telling me how overpowered Archers.
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Gluttony: What if you don't want to lug around 24lbs of torches for a full adventuring day's worth of light? Or 5lbs of lantern (lantern+4oil)? Or you dont want to hold the torch/lantern all the time?
As I said, light spell at level 1. Ioun Torch at level 2+ :)
- Gauss
Also, something to consider about the dancing lights routine that seems popular is I often make my players roll a d10 at the start of the encounter in order to see how many rounds they have left of dancing lights before the room goes dark.
I find after getting surprised a few times and having things go dark on them, the group tends to go back to the old trusty light spell.
The spell also has verbal components, so there are a few situations where you might not want to be making noise every minute while you navigate something.
And I'm not exactly sure what cover has to do with this >_>It's all the same thing. I've seen too many GM's not use range penalties or not give the player -4 per obstruction (3 party members in front of you? That's -12 to hit). They just sort of hand wave it while telling me how overpowered Archers.
Ah. I normally just crank up the AC appropriately on my end, as necessary.
As such I don't consider it the same sort of nittygritty as keeping track of mundane cheap tools. But hey to each their own.
Gluttony: What if you don't want to lug around 24lbs of torches for a full adventuring day's worth of light? Or 5lbs of lantern (lantern+4oil)? Or you dont want to hold the torch/lantern all the time?
As I said, light spell at level 1. Ioun Torch at level 2+ :)
- Gauss
If you're going to need light for a full 24 hours and can't afford an ioun stone, everburning torch, or other such alternative, then you suck it up, prepare the spell, and you don't take one of the other ones you wanted.
In normal circumstances though, my main group carries a torch or two each. 4 to 8 hours is usually enough warning that you can tell when to begin your retreat, so that you don't get caught in pitch blackness.
As for who holds the torch, it depends who's best suited to it. Monk who makes unarmed strikes and can do it perfectly well with their legs? Torch duty. Wizard who carries no weapon? Torch duty. Fighter normally wields a 1-handed weapon in 2 hands? He can take one for the team and exchange his 1/2 a Str modifier of a damage bonus to grant his teammates the ability to see. Alternatively: Hirelings, Unseen Servant spells, improved familiars, monkey familiars, mount the torch on a floating disc or a miniature cart, etc. There's lots of options if you get creative about it.