You could try checking out the Savage Tide AP (the last one Paizo did for Dungeon Magazine). It's a 12-part AP (taking characters from level 1 to level 21-ish) focused on Demogorgon as the BBEG, and also includes other iconic characters like Orcus, Malcanthet, Iggwilv, and Charon :)
Well, I mostly avoid the "big" names. Asmodeus, Orcus, etc. You might as well just admit you want to play a god-slaying game, because with some of the greater evils, you're already there.
At absolute best, my characters might have to tussle with Bel (Lord of the first) but they'll never be directly fighting him and they'll never climb higher on the ladder.
Personally, I subscribe to the idea that "There are some people/creatures/etc that you just don't mess with."
You might as well just admit you want to play a god-slaying game, because with some of the greater evils, you're already there.What's wrong with that?
In my experience, it's unexciting, the campaign doesn't last long, and the players get bored with their characters easily because they don't have anything to look forward to or to grow into.
But there's nothing wrong with it. I just don't know many people who can actually make such a thing enjoyable and memorable.
In my experience, it's unexciting, the campaign doesn't last long, and the players get bored with their characters easily because they don't have anything to look forward to or to grow into.
But there's nothing wrong with it. I just don't know many people who can actually make such a thing enjoyable and memorable.
But the difference between Demogorgon and Orcus compared to, like Juiblex isn't even an order of magnitude. Same damn thing.
I normally don't let the players know up front who is running the show. The BBEG also stays behind the scenes until at least the last 1/3 of the campaign.
Check out the old 2nd ed planescape adventures. Tons of stuff dealing with demons and devils. It can either give you ideas or you can directly translate the rule system over to pathfinder.
Check out the dicefreaks forums and their free download Gates of Hell (3.5 rules though).
Also read shemeshka's story hour on ENworld for much planar / infernal goodness.
Another great story hour is Sepulchrave2's,, an epic campaign featuring Grazz't as an opponent.
FGG's Rappan Athuk is a mega dungeon involves Orcus and Slumbering Tsar involves tsathogga iirc. Other NG and FGG products should also feature demon lords...
You might check out Slumbering Tsar as mentioned above. I am cherry-picking parts of it to use in the finale of my homebrew Golarion campaign (and I may throw in parts of the upcoming Reign of Winter and Worldwound APs once they are out).
I took a caster npc and turned him into a secret enemy. He is a necromancer/cleric of Zon Kuthon/mystic theurge who has settled down in Liberthane while he secretly searches for an artifact of terrible, dark power (although he does not know exactly what). It turns out that what he seeks is none other than the Wand of Orcus, which is one of several artifacts confiscated a millennia ago by the Shining Crusade to power the seals that keep the Whispering Tyrant imprisoned beneath Gallowspire.
The PCs delved too deep beneath the kobold caves in their attempts to save the missing children (one of the Falcon's Hollow modules) and broke some of the seals that kept the wand hidden. As it turns out, the guardian of the wand was a 20th level cleric of Aroden who willfully allowed himself to be imprisoned in a big crystal so that he need not eat, sleep, or breathe and would never age. Unfortunately, when Aroden died the cleric lost all of his powers and his "keeper" who was supposed to look in on him (an elf npc I have other designs on) had been negligent in his duties and did not look in on him since Aroden's death (he didn't know/care who the cleric served) so the wand was essentially unprotected.
Long story somewhat short, the bad MT was able to break down the other defenses protecting the wand and thought he was going to steal it for his god when the wand took him over and turned him into a lich (the wand's green-glowing skull replaced his own...his spine effectively becomes the handle of the wand).
So now the PCs have to try and hunt down the lich/wand. Ultimately, the way it will likely go is the PCs take out the lich but have to give the wand back to Orcus (for reasons too lengthy to go into here). Then, they will have to go up north to fight frost giants and eventually face off against Kostchtchie (sp?) before heading into the Worldwound and tracking down Orcus in order to retrieve the wand from him so they can reinstall it to power the seal.
Phew!
You might as well just admit you want to play a god-slaying game, because with some of the greater evils, you're already there.What's wrong with that?In my experience, it's unexciting, the campaign doesn't last long, and the players get bored with their characters easily because they don't have anything to look forward to or to grow into.
But there's nothing wrong with it. I just don't know many people who can actually make such a thing enjoyable and memorable.
The trick to making it memorable is not to make the killing of the god the main plot of the game. An end result of the game is fine, but if the players are only seeking to kill that god from the beginning then things will end just as you laid them out.
I did this once, and the fight with the god was at the end of the campaign where the BBEG the party had been fighting the entire length of the game had managed to complete a ritual that would bring the god of chaos to the world. The party found themselves locked into battle with the BBEG and the god at the same time, and managed to defeat the god by trapping the god in a gem (which also meant the sacrifice of the character).
God killing is definetly not something I would run to often, though. Makes the epic stuff that leads up to that seem a bit less epic.
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One of the things I don’t see often enough is blue-on-blue and red-on-red conflict (in the case of blue-blue, combat =/= conflict).
Were I planning an epic demon lord campaign I’d look at the natural evolution of adventurers and how to exploit that to try to make the plotline a bit more organic seeming right off the bat. Think Twin Peaks written by H.P. Lovecraft for Pathfinder.
Basic Outline:
Start the PCs as 1st level adventurers. Get them comfortable with their characters and their standard practices. Prep early to avoid “scry & fry” and similar tactics and make sure that you are reacting to their level of paranoia (or lack thereof).
Make the PCs at least partially responsible for the unleashing of the end BBEG. I recommend using them as a 3rd combatant in a Red-Red conflict between an order of LE demon binder’s & their demonic opponents / opponent’s minions. PCs take out the LE’s and the CE demon gets away to start the snowball rolling later in the game.
PCs backtrack “the one that got away” and find out that it’s already done its part to summon the end BBEG.
Throw in some flack from the other “Blues” (ie other good guys), and possible conflict to see how the PCs deal with threats from the other “good guys”.
Have the conflict strike home a few times, show that some of the “normals” in the area were either CE cultists ( <5th L so they don’t detect as evil) or patsy’s / unknowing minions.
Have the Bads hit back, setting up the PCs or other “Blues” to try to manipulate the conflict. Depending on how the PCs responded earlier to their blue-blue conflict, this should flavor how they are judged by others in this conflict. If they handled it poorly, they could be ducking & running from both sides while the “Bads” build / rebuild their power base.
Can wrap in two ways – final throw down with those who are trying to summon the big bad to stop them or with the big bad themselves, having just been summoned.
If you want 20th L or post-20th and the players are canny enough, they may want to try to time the summoning or other confluence of events to have an even greater impact and force the big bad to either never be able to return or wait 100 / 500 / 1000 / etc years before they can be summoned back. For additional “targeted plot” make the big bad only able to be defeated by specific quest item(s) that must be used by the PCs as they were the ones who freed their herald (or other plot reason you’ve thrown in).
If you want truly epic, have the characters embark on a quest to be able to remove and ban all knowledge of summoning them from the Prime ever again.
Extensive Outline:
This is a more detailed plot arc you can feel free to snag & modify to taste.
Start the characters in a relatively isolated area, with the “home village” the center of local trade, ideally on a nexus of river traffic and overland traffic, maybe near a mountain pass. Campaign traits should focus on the characters being somewhat rugged isolationists with limited access to outside resources and “get it done here” sorts of attitudes. Emphasize the tightness of the community and the general “us against the world attitude” that they have with the greater outside world. Throw in very low-emphasis details about the surrounding areas & towns. Use these levels to solidify the characters & their interactions with the world while it’s still small and set up your main ally NPCs as well as setting the stage for some “Stooge” and “Traitor” interactions later in the arc so that it will have some emotional impact months / years down the line.
Encounter in this time frame should be relatively “normal” and not specifically aimed at the over-arcing plotline – they are to help you and the players nail down the characters & their development.
This is the time when the players should be pulling even with most of their other contemporaries. The local champions & other “high profile” NPCs, as well as elite guards and other “named” NPCs.
This is where you lay the groundwork for the “set up” to get the PCs pulled into your over-arc. Establish or use either a “Stooge” or “Traitor” NPC at this point to hire the PCs to investigate several of the sites in the area or rescue missing people (children are always good) establish that ruins of some sort have been found in the area and set them up to be explored as the characters “level up”.
From a role-playing perspective, cement the players ties to the area that you’ve been working on when they are lower level. Make it obvious that the characters are earning (and deserving the respect) of their peers in the area.
You may even want to introduce another NPC adventuring group at this point, someone that the PCs can “talk shop” with and consider their contemporaries. Try not to make them seem like competitors, but rather compatriots. If you are using Golarion, Pathfinders are ideal for this. This will serve a dual purpose down the road in a potential plot hook and potential replacement PCs that won’t “just have been sitting around” if the other PCs die or want to change their characters out. Some players like having “backup” characters waiting in the wings and these are the levels that may be good to switch some characters in and out of the story somewhat so that everyone’s playing something they’re comfortable with before the emotional investment rollercoaster hits them.
GMing Note: By the time they hit 6th level, establish some notes about how the characters conduct themselves when they are under observation, as after they hit 6th level is when you want them to start to show up on the “radar” of the campaign factions, whether by spies, scrying or word-of-mouth. I usually try to wait until this point to give the players some time to figure out if their characters are being super sneaking or reveling in fame. Either can be used to benefit or detriment the group, but it’s important to note the play style and preference for how you set the stage for things to come.
PCs should be a bit ahead of the curve of any random NPC they run into at this point and should feel somewhat confident in their characters & their characters’ decision making process.
This is also where you introduce some of the red-red conflict.
Bastion of Evil This is where you sink in the knife. At 6th or 7th L the PCs should become aware of a group of “evil cultists” or similar description who have been receiving goods from a nearby town for some time (ex Asmodians outside of Cheliax). Nearby hunters have gone missing and haven’t been seen in several days and the hunter’s loved ones suspect that they may have been captured or killed by the cultists. PCs bust in to save the hunters (who were indeed captives) and “clear out” the “evil temple” in doing so, they disrupt the wards (which will come up later). At some point in the battle, the PCs should have an opportunity to determine that they are currently being scryed on. The hunter is rescued and the PCs seem to have saved the day and gotten some really nice loot.
Continue to observe PC mannerisms and how they deal with things at this point. From this point, the PCs will be scryed on by at least one of the “Red factions” at least intermittently.
Invitation from Evil – PCs are invited to a parley or other social situation where the LE faction lays out that the PCs are responsible for unleashing a demon and want to know what they’re going to do about it. Establish PCs reaction for allying with evil to combat a greater evil. Use this as a litmus for how the players react as well so that you can prep for it down the line. If PCs are unwilling to accept or offer aid & information, they should be penalized but not completely screwed (effectively increasing the difficulty 2 or 3 levels overall).
Demonstration of Ruthlessness – PCs should find out that some of the “Reds” were killed to prevent the back-tracking of the PCs to the Reds and that they are actively defending vs. scrying & other divinations as well as eliminating spies & potential spies (including some of their own)
Be sure to included secondary conflicts with other “typed” monsters to avoid over-specialized PCs & PC-loot and let some of the other focus shine at these levels.
The Higher Authority – PCs should find themselves in conflict (not necessarily combat) with another “Blue” faction. PCs should have to find a way to “clear their name” or otherwise prove that they aren’t assisting the “Reds”.
The Ambush – PCs get ambushed by the bad guys from the CE “demon faction” who have some prior knowledge of the PCs & their obvious tactics. This is not a “scry & fry” , but should set the players up mentally so they aren’t surprised when it happens in “Reds Strike Back” below.
PCs should find out some of the ramifications of their activities back in their “home town” at this point, with revelations about alliances, blackmail and familial history of those in the area and their ties to both the red factions.
PCs should find out that the other adventuring group (if introduced) was wiped out as they were mistaken for the PCs.
If your campaign allows, this would be a good time for PCs to start establishing a secure “home base” of some sort.
X
The Reds Strike Back – PCs get ambushed by the bad guys doing a “scry & fry” at them ; demonstrate the stakes the game is at and PCs should be getting pretty thoroughly hammered and will likely require some raising / rezz’ing. TPK should be possible with the other Blues or Reds bringing them back in a show of solidarity (depending on how the other conflicts were handled) if it happens. Maybe the remnants of the other adventuring group. This is an opportunity to allow players to switch characters without overly disrupting play. If a player has demonstrated a desire to switch, the GM can talk to them before hand and show their character being killed or taken out in a suitably thematic manner.
The Tools of the Trade – PCs should have an opportunity to “upgrade” or seek out better items / magics / allies in order to take the conflict to the BBEG.
By the time the PCs hit 18th they should have NPCs from all of the place coming to them for their opinion & expertise in the conflict and it should be obvious that they outclass almost everyone except the most legendary of other NPCs. Reinforce this by having some of the “pinnacle NPCs” shown earlier turn into “fans” of the PCs.
If you are wanting a “home base” for the PCs, PCs should have it completed by 18th L.
Have the PCs do some more RP before the big show-down and set the stage for the end-game conflict.
The Showdown – PCs have to race to stop or stymie the big bad. Either combating the demon lord directly or stopping their summoning. YMMV. I would recommend it be to stop the summoning and have the PCs discover that they were racing another group for the honor of summoning the “dark lord”. PCs have to find and stop or allow the BBEG to be summoned in order to attempt to either trap them so that they can never again be summoned or impose some other similar binding on them to try to stop them for good.
Perhaps just stopping or defeating the BBEG isn’t enough. Now he knows their name – what will happen to them once they are dead ; the spite of a demon lord can follow into even the after life and may affect their families & descendents…
PCs have to find a truly epic way to end the threat forever – perhaps even removing all memory and record of the BBEG’s name, unmaking them forever … of course, with this knowledge in their hands, others will want to know how to do so or stop others from doing so to them …
Wow, that was way longer than intended, but hopefully will help you out.
-TimD
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I don't know if you helped out the OP, but you have certainly fed me with ideas for both a current game and a future one.
Glad to help!
-TimD
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Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde has an excellent history on Mu-Tahn Laa. A demonlord who wanted to switch a part of the material plane with part of one layer of the abyss. (The Mountains of Sorrow Beyond Reproach)
He failed, and some centuries later the heroes come along to explore the ruins that were left on the material plane... And that is it. No traveling to the abyss, no encounter with a demon lord, no invasion of demons. Just a dungeon crawl.
My point: It could have been so much more.