Wow JJ, you would come back online just as I'm heading to bed (/jk). Looks like I'll have lots to read in your thread when I come back :P
As for fighting demon lords and mythic cure light wounds... Not all mythic characters are going to be equally powerful, in the same way not all non-mythic characters are. If you're only capable of casting a mythic cure light wounds and that's ALL you can do, mythic-wise, you might be a 1st level character who'll do a lot better than the others in fighting ogres or minotaurs... but demon lords are still a LONG way off in your future.
In any event... the mythic rules are still coming together. Until the playtest starts in about a month or a month an a half, patience will need to be the primary virtue folks'll need to possess.
Thanks for the response, James.
I guess my main question is: will the Mythic rules be built in a "top down" or a "bottom up" fashion?
E.g. Are you starting with an idea of what a mythic adversary like a demon lord should be able to do and then coming up with powers that are necessary to defeat adversaries like that, or are you starting with a list of mythic powers and then a demon lord is a creature that's tough enough to provide a challenge for a party that has access to those powers?
The idea that a mythic Cure Light Wounds does X and a mythic Fireball does Y sounds more like the latter than the former, but I'm sure there's more going on behind the scenes than you're letting on so far.
Hot air? Look at the stretch marks around that stitching. There's more than air in that bag...
I'm trying to be polite. ;)
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Not all mythic characters are going to be equally powerful, in the same way not all non-mythic characters are.
Please, for the love of all that slithers soundlessly through the depths of space, make the martial characters equally as powerful and interesting as the spellcasters. If that means giving the martial characters tons of awesome powers and giving spellcasters +1 BAB every two mythic levels...do it.
I don't think he's inferring that there will be a major divide between the different Mythic Paths. I think that's more meant as a comment on level disparity.
A Heirophant 3 is not as "equally powerful" as a Heirophant 8 "in the same way not all non-mythic characters are" such as a Cleric 3 compared to a Cleric 8.
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The Dunning-Kruger is strong in this thread...
Yes, when someone comes in and based on second-hand restatements of incomplete information declares something "sounds like a train wreck", the Dunning–Kruger is strong with him, and he infects the thread where he posts with it.
Director of Games
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Hey there Everybody,
Now that I am back from the show, I can more easily post to the boards.
First off, I love doing shows and giving out news at them, but boy can it cause some grief. The news many of you are basing your reactions off of is incomplete at best. Lets just all take a deep breath and gather our wits a bit.
Second, I am truly glad that so many folks here are excited about the new mythic system. I have been working on this quietly for a number of months now and I am glad to be letting the cat out of the bag. I will be taking questions here in the coming days, but I will start up a new thread for that so that folks do not have to wander through so many pages of rampant speculation and hearsay.
For those of you who are worried, I would only ask for you to hold off on judgement until you see the playtest. This system is a new approach to the mechanics of the game and its kinda hard to wrap your head around until you have it in front of you. I've seen this experience in the office here several times now and once folks have gotten a chance to play with it, they have always come out with a positive reaction. I am not guaranteeing that you will, but I think once you get a chance to toy around with it, many of you will come around.
Glad to see folks excited and I cannot wait to share more.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
(PS, and for anyone who says we cant do math around these parts... )
:)
Although I noted one thing from JJ's post.
The adventure path will be for Mythic use only.
So not all the material will be usable either with or without Mythic.
Hey there Everybody,
Now that I am back from the show, I can more easily post to the boards.
First off, I love doing shows and giving out news at them, but boy can it cause some grief. The news many of you are basing your reactions off of is incomplete at best. Lets just all take a deep breath and gather our wits a bit.
Second, I am truly glad that so many folks here are excited about the new mythic system. I have been working on this quietly for a number of months now and I am glad to be letting the cat out of the bag. I will be taking questions here in the coming days, but I will start up a new thread for that so that folks do not have to wander through so many pages of rampant speculation and hearsay.
For those of you who are worried, I would only ask for you to hold off on judgement until you see the playtest. This system is a new approach to the mechanics of the game and its kinda hard to wrap your head around until you have it in front of you. I've seen this experience in the office here several times now and once folks have gotten a chance to play with it, they have always come out with a positive reaction. I am not guaranteeing that you will, but I think once you get a chance to toy around with it, many of you will come around.
Glad to see folks excited and I cannot wait to share more.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing(PS, and for anyone who says we cant do math around these parts... )
:)
Thanks Jason! I'm really psyched for the playtest and this sounds like a promising new system.
Hey there Everybody,
Now that I am back from the show, I can more easily post to the boards.
First off, I love doing shows and giving out news at them, but boy can it cause some grief. The news many of you are basing your reactions off of is incomplete at best. Lets just all take a deep breath and gather our wits a bit.
Second, I am truly glad that so many folks here are excited about the new mythic system. I have been working on this quietly for a number of months now and I am glad to be letting the cat out of the bag. I will be taking questions here in the coming days, but I will start up a new thread for that so that folks do not have to wander through so many pages of rampant speculation and hearsay.
For those of you who are worried, I would only ask for you to hold off on judgement until you see the playtest. This system is a new approach to the mechanics of the game and its kinda hard to wrap your head around until you have it in front of you. I've seen this experience in the office here several times now and once folks have gotten a chance to play with it, they have always come out with a positive reaction. I am not guaranteeing that you will, but I think once you get a chance to toy around with it, many of you will come around.
Glad to see folks excited and I cannot wait to share more.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing(PS, and for anyone who says we cant do math around these parts... )
:)
Thank you.
It's a pity you couldn't have dropped the play test on us immediately. After all you have this huge rush of excitement. Oh well, count me in on the play test. The waiting will be anxious.
See Bugly the problem is you are taking "The sky is falling!" knee jerk reaction approach to a product announcement that 1) we barely know anything about and 2) will be available for play testing. Why get all freaked out about it now?I can't speak for anyone else, but I would think that the "teasers" released by Paizo should be the most interesting parts of the proposed system. So if I'm finding those distinctly underwhelming, it makes me feel kind of pessimistic for the end result.
For instance, in another thread James Jacobs was saying "the reason we can't have adventure paths that end with the PCs fighting demigods or demon lords (like in Age of Worms and Savage Tide) is because we don't have the necessary rules". So when I hear that an example of a mythic effect is changing Cure Light Wounds's healing from 1d8 to 3d6, my first reaction is to say "...and that kind of thing is supposed to make the difference between killing a demon lord and getting ground into a fine paste?"
Now that "Mythic Adventures" has been announced, I can be a bit less cryptic and a bit more exact on my plans for things like that.
But first off... we WILL have a public playtest of Mythic Adventures. That playtest will likely focus more on player character options than GM options (aka how a CR 35 or something like that monster is statted up), but that part WILL be a part of the game. I hope.
Mythic Adventures is, in my opinion, the biggest thing we've done for Pathfinder since the Core Rules. And as such, it's gonna be a significant focus of our work over the next year.
That said... the adventure path that launches next Gen Con, The Demonblight Crusade (which is still subject to having its name changed), will be a mythic adventure path. That means that the PCs will be gaining mythic powers during the course of the AP, and as such it will serve not only as a pre-built campaign for folks who are eager to use mythic adventures in their game, but perhaps more...
Sounds great. Just to clarify (it seems obvious, but you never know) - this will still be starting at level one and finishing at the usual 16-18? It's just that the PCs are expected to gain mythic powers via various events as they trundle along gaining regular levels via experience points?
Hey there Everybody,
Now that I am back from the show, I can more easily post to the boards.
First off, I love doing shows and giving out news at them, but boy can it cause some grief. The news many of you are basing your reactions off of is incomplete at best. Lets just all take a deep breath and gather our wits a bit.
Second, I am truly glad that so many folks here are excited about the new mythic system. I have been working on this quietly for a number of months now and I am glad to be letting the cat out of the bag. I will be taking questions here in the coming days, but I will start up a new thread for that so that folks do not have to wander through so many pages of rampant speculation and hearsay.
For those of you who are worried, I would only ask for you to hold off on judgement until you see the playtest. This system is a new approach to the mechanics of the game and its kinda hard to wrap your head around until you have it in front of you. I've seen this experience in the office here several times now and once folks have gotten a chance to play with it, they have always come out with a positive reaction. I am not guaranteeing that you will, but I think once you get a chance to toy around with it, many of you will come around.
Glad to see folks excited and I cannot wait to share more.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing(PS, and for anyone who says we cant do math around these parts... )
:)
You forgot to carry the two.
Well, if it allows me to bring characters past level 20 with new rules, I like it.
If not, that's disappointing.
I await the rules...
Well, if it allows me to bring characters past level 20 with new rules, I like it.
If not, that's disappointing.
I await the rules...
It depends on what you mean by "past level 20". The mythic levels aren't something you can only go up after attaining level 20, you can raise them at any time. For example, you can be 10 levels of Sorceror, and 5 levels of Mythic Archmage.
But then you can also wait until you reach 20th level and then raise another 10 Mythic levels, as well. So in that sense, yes, you can go past level 20.
You will most likely be going past level 20, anyways, with the combination of the Mythic levels.
My question to Jason, if your campaign takes you to 20th level, do you recommend continuing to raise your normal levels along with Mythic levels as well? For example, a 21st level Fighter and 4th level Mythic Warrior? The rules in the Core Rulebook are of course set up to extend beyond 20th level, but with the design of the Mythic levels, is it something you would recommend?
While I can not guarantee this, I have a strong feeling this is going to be a massive, company wide project in that I do not believe it will be limited to just the rules guys as I believe JJ will want to help guide this as he has been very vocal about wanting these rules.
While I can not guarantee this, I have a strong feeling this is going to be a massive, company wide project in that I do not believe it will be limited to just the rules guys as I believe JJ will want to help guide this as he has been very vocal about wanting these rules.
This is true, but you also have to realize this is the case for a majority of the books. They may be 'rule' books, but you can be assured that input is put in from most departments, it isn't just Jason, Stephen and Sean working on the rules in the books.
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You forgot to carry the two.The two can bloody well carry itself!
The real TriOmegaZero is nicer. Better looking too.
While I can not guarantee this, I have a strong feeling this is going to be a massive, company wide project in that I do not believe it will be limited to just the rules guys as I believe JJ will want to help guide this as he has been very vocal about wanting these rules.This is true, but you also have to realize this is the case for a majority of the books. They may be 'rule' books, but you can be assured that input is put in from most departments, it isn't just Jason, Stephen and Sean working on the rules in the books.
I just get the feeling that they're gonna work more closely than normal, especially since with an AP and possibly stats for Golarion heavies, James and the rest of the "creative" team will want to make sure everything meshes and accomplishes what its supposed to.
I think the Mythic rules actually could be used as a way to extend the level cap though. You're not increasing the math of AC, HD, saves, attacks, etc, but you are increasing the power level. There's nothing stopping you from playing 1-20 normally, and THEN starting the mythic track, effectively making it 21-30.
I hope that something similar ends up as an option mentioned in the book, but I think it might actually work better if you mixed the 10 mythic levels in among the 20 normal levels (putting them all on the normal XP track). This would slow casting progression while giving everyone nice stuff, so it might help keep the game running smoothly into higher levels.
Heres a thought assuming mythic levels are a way to go above level 20 cap and just grant abilitys and hp how about the option to allow mythic levels to allow one to gain class abilitys for characters such as multiclass characters. say i am a 1st level monk 19th level paladin and for some reason i really want the cap stone on pally i think it would be nifty if i could take a mythic level and pick that up.
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...but I think it might actually work better if you mixed the 10 mythic levels in among the 20 normal levels (putting them all on the normal XP track). This would slow casting progression while giving everyone nice stuff, so it might help keep the game running smoothly into higher levels.
From everything I've seen on the subject, the mythic levels are NOT gained via XP.
Well this will be great to see, as I'm sure by 2013 my group will be wanting to revisit their current characters that are hitting level 15 or so right now.
What I am currently wondering about is whether or not the Mythic levels will grant different boni depending on the level of the character. For example, is the first level of Mythic archmage the same for a level 4 wizard and a level 20 wizard? The powers will have differ or the powers are extremely scalable or a level 20 character taking his first Mythic level might be a bit underwhelmed. The reason for my interest in this is that I am currently running a campaign that I would love to extend with Mythic level gameplay, but the characters will be level 20 before I could use the Mythic levels.
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The real TriOmegaZero is nicer. Better looking too.You forgot to carry the two.The two can bloody well carry itself!Don't hate me because I'm beautiful.
There are so many better reasons.
Ain't there some obscure law forbidding gingers from using the word "beautiful" in relation to themselves, context be damned? ;-)
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Ain't there some obscure law forbidding gingers from using the word "beautiful" in relation to themselves, context be damned? ;-)The real TriOmegaZero is nicer. Better looking too.You forgot to carry the two.The two can bloody well carry itself!Don't hate me because I'm beautiful.
There are so many better reasons.
Its not obscure at all. Its the "Gingers Are Souless and Soulessness Isn't Beauty, Its an Abomination" Act of 2010. It was pushed through Congress by a Colorado Senator at the request of a fat 9-year-old boy.
What I am currently wondering about is whether or not the Mythic levels will grant different boni depending on the level of the character. For example, is the first level of Mythic archmage the same for a level 4 wizard and a level 20 wizard? The powers will have differ or the powers are extremely scalable or a level 20 character taking his first Mythic level might be a bit underwhelmed. The reason for my interest in this is that I am currently running a campaign that I would love to extend with Mythic level gameplay, but the characters will be level 20 before I could use the Mythic levels.
From what has been said, a character does not "take" Mythic levels. The GM gives them out.. something other than the character bestows power on the character.. possibly for a limited time, possibly not, depending on the needs of the campaign.
I need to start looking for Pathfinder players on my FOB. I want to playtest! FML!!
I'm definitely glad James Jacobs and Jason Bulmahn popped in, but it looks like the wait for actual information is going to be just a wee bit longer :)
Maybe it might be wise not to use the term "level" for the mythic advancement. If a character has, say, 10 normal class levels, and 5 levels in a mythic path, many players will always be prone to add them up and think their character is "a level 15", which probably is not correct. Maybe that kind of thinking—which seems inevitable to me—could be avoided by using a different word, for example "tier" or something similar, so the character coud be referred to as, for example, a "level 10 wizard, 5th tier archmage".
What do you think?
Well, I hope there isn’t too much differential between normal and mythic levels. Yes, mythic will of course be more powerful, but I would be pretty unhappy if that levels (or tiers) in Mythic Archmage does not add to my CL.
Well, I hope there isn’t too much differential between normal and mythic levels. Yes, mythic will of course be more powerful, but I would be pretty unhappy if that levels (or tiers) in Mythic Archmage does not add to my CL.
I'm pretty sure that mythic advancement will not increase your character's CL, if by CL you mean character level. However, it will most certainly increase your character's CR and the CR of opponents your character can confidently face.
The real TriOmegaZero is nicer. Better looking too.You forgot to carry the two.The two can bloody well carry itself!Don't hate me because I'm beautiful.
There are so many better reasons.
If someone needs a list, I can give one. Alphabetically, categorically, or in order of annoyance. :)
NOTE : I've met him, he's not all that beautiful, so he's being honest when he says don't hate him for being beautiful. :)
Well, I hope there isn’t too much differential between normal and mythic levels. Yes, mythic will of course be more powerful, but I would be pretty unhappy if that levels (or tiers) in Mythic Archmage does not add to my CL.I'm pretty sure that mythic advancement will not increase your character's CL, if by CL you mean character level. However, it will most certainly increase your character's CR and the CR of opponents your character can confidently face.
Sorry, I should have clarified, I meant caster level.
Well, I hope there isn’t too much differential between normal and mythic levels. Yes, mythic will of course be more powerful, but I would be pretty unhappy if that levels (or tiers) in Mythic Archmage does not add to my CL.I'm pretty sure that mythic advancement will not increase your character's CL, if by CL you mean character level. However, it will most certainly increase your character's CR and the CR of opponents your character can confidently face.
I think in context, he meant CL as in Caster Level.
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Ain't there some obscure law forbidding gingers from using the word "beautiful" in relation to themselves, context be damned? ;-)The real TriOmegaZero is nicer. Better looking too.You forgot to carry the two.The two can bloody well carry itself!Don't hate me because I'm beautiful.
There are so many better reasons.
Only a ginger can call another ginger, ginger.
Mythic Tiers absolutely should add to Caster Level. Unless it gives some MAJOR advantage to make up for it, adding to Caster Level is kind of crucial for the Mythic Tiers to even work!
Think about it! Otherwise, that Wizard 10/ Mythic Archmage 5 will be casting no more powerful spells than a 10th level Wizard. He'll be Dispeling as a 10th level Wizard and trying to penetrate SR as a 10th level Wizard. As an effectively 15th level character, any SR he encounters is almost guaranteed to shut him down. A CR 15 creature with SR is going to roughly have SR 25, while the Wizard will be getting his 10 Wizard levels to overcome it, meaning he needs to roll a 15 or higher to succeed. And that's for an equal CR threat!
Achaekek, the Mantis God** has SR 42. A 20th level Wizard/ 10th Tier Mythic Archmage would roll his D20 and add 20 to overcome SR. Considering natural 20s don't auto-succeed, a 20/10 character could never succeed.
But if Mythic stacks for CL (at least the Caster Mythic Tiers anyway), then the 20/10 Wizard would have a CL of 30, and could affect Achaekek.
** I know, the Achaekek presented is a conversion, but it's a conversion of the Achaekek presented in a 3.5 Paizo product. It was mentioned in one of the bestiaries that CR 26 and above is reserved for the realms of Arch Dukes and Demon Lords and that Arch Dukes and Demon Lords are equal in power to Demi-Gods. Achaekek is supposed to be more powerful than a Demi-God but less than a God. So Achaekek is a fairly good estimation of power for a Demon Lord, at least I think so.
Tels, there was some miscommunication, and due to me not being clear enough. But both mdt and theJeff had thought I was talking about Character Level, not Caster Level.
I really do think (hope) Mythic levels will go towards your caster levels, but agree with them that it probably won’t go towards character levels.
Tels, there was some miscommunication, and due to me not being clear enough. But both mdt and theJeff had thought I was talking about Character Level, not Caster Level.
I really do think (hope) Mythic levels will go towards your caster levels, but agree with them that it probably won’t go towards character levels.
Uhm,
No. Go reread my comment. I said you were talking about Caster Level.
Oops, my mistake (again)! Sorry mdt, I meant Zaister instead of you. :)
Mythic Tiers absolutely should add to Caster Level. Unless it gives some MAJOR advantage to make up for it, adding to Caster Level is kind of crucial for the Mythic Tiers to even work!
Think about it! Otherwise, that Wizard 10/ Mythic Archmage 5 will be casting no more powerful spells than a 10th level Wizard.
And I think that may be the point. Remember, mythic rules include mythic creatures, who are CR appropriately built. If his CL is 15, then he is taking on normal CR 15 creatures, not mythic CR 15 creatures.
Not saying it won't add to CL, but it could be that it's not intended to. Or, perhaps, he'll overcome CR as if a CL15 but cast as a CL10. IE: He gains a bonus to SR checks equal to his Mythic Level, but he doesn't cast a 15th level fireball, just a 10th level. Remember, from what we understand, Mythic is about giving options, not ramping up the power level. if they wanted to ramp up the power level like that, they'd just make 21-40 level rules.
Just to be clear, it was Jason who referred to them as Mythic ‘levels’. So I believe that was chosen for a reason, and it was to ‘not’ cause confusion in that you still will raise in certain aspects of your character. No, you won’t continue to go up in iterative attacks or continue to gain abilities through classes, and maybe not even gain HPs or skill points. But I would be very surprised if you didn’t continue to gain feats, ability bonuses and especially caster levels.
Well there are other things too. For instance, take a 6th level Wizard/ Tier 3 Mystic Archmage. His highest level spell is 3rd level, but he's equal in power to a Level/CR 9 Monster/Character. However, a purely 9th level Wizard could have Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, and, unless those Archmage Tiers stack for spell progression and Caster Level, that Archmage can't penetrate that Lesser Globe with any of his spells because Lesser Globe outright stops all spells of 3rd level or lower.
Sure, the Wizard can try and Dispel the Lesser Globe, but that Archmage, if the Mystic Tiers don't stack, will be rolling 1d20 + 6 against a DC of 20 to Dispel it, so he needs a 14 or higher.
But if the Archmage Mystic Tiers stacked with the Wizard levels for spell progression and Caster Levle, the Archmage would have 4th and 5th level spells that just ignored the Lesser Globe, or he could Dispel the Lesser Globe a lot easier.
If Mystic Tiers don't stack for Spell Progression and Caster Level, you're gimping all caster classes out of their class power. I just don't think Mythic Tiers can really make up for taking on an 11th level Caster (with 6th level spells) while the PCs only have 4th level spells because they're "Mythic" and have some bonuses that comes with it.
But we'll have to wait for the playtest to find out.