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So this is one of those interesting build questions that came up in my society from one of my many colorful players that like to excessively think outside of the box and I would like a shared ruling on it:
This players wants to make a tower shield with an immoveable rod affixed to the back with sovereign glue. I ruled technically no, because it requires a craft check in order for it to work. But then thinking about it, was a good thought:
Now, you still get total cover anyway, due to the rules of tower shields. Also sovereign glue is not illegal, but the issue is that you would need a lot to cover a tower shield to get the rod to hold which would easily cost 10 to 12k to get. (2,400k per ounce, you would need a lot to cover the length of a tower shield!) plus the rod (5,000)
So it would take a LONG time to get the fame and prestige to get these items and then try to make it which would take even longer.
My alternate option was this:
Just buy both pieces separately, and use rope to tie and hold. It would take possibly 2 full-rounds to do that if possible or even applicable.
The idea is not illegal, but I am wondering, would it work and would my fellow GM's allow it at a table? Furthermore, is it even a practical idea in society play since due to Fame score and fixed GP, this person wouldn't have enough to buy it until maybe 9th or 10th level?
Thanks a bunch!
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First of all, the Sovereign glue can be purchased by the ounce, so each ounce would be 2,400, not 2,400 x 5 (12k) to get the glue. The only fame limit you're looking at is the immovable rod.
Also, why would you need to coat the whole shield? I'm still trying to figure out what the player is wanting with an immovable rod glued to a shield, but the rod itself isn't 5', so why would the whole shield need to be covered in it?
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Ummm... to what purpose?
Anyway, the components would be bought separately, the most expensive of which is the Rod at 5k. It would only take one application of Sovereign Glue to attach an Immovable Rod to a tower shield. And doing so would not require a Craft check. He is not 'creating' anything, just gluing things together.
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Sovereign glue is not considered a "always available" item, so that's why I am applying the fame ruling to it. The rod of course still applies.
And the issue it's crafting, is because although it's "gluing" things together, it's still in essence "crafting" if you are a RAW rules person. Which is why I am here asking for advice.
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the goal is to make a placeable wall of wood. as a towershield says "This massive wooden shield is nearly as tall as you are." which would mean that the shield would be tall enough to provide cover bonuses while the rod held it up.
Ok, well, it still would only take an ounce of the glue (2,400gp) to attach the rod, which is the most expensive component.
You'd only need to coat it if you were trying to glue the whole shield to something. Like the Half-Orc Barbarian.
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Sovereign glue is not considered a "always available" item, so that's why I am applying the fame ruling to it. The rod of course still applies.
And the issue it's crafting, is because although it's "gluing" things together, it's still in essence "crafting" if you are a RAW rules person. Which is why I am here asking for advice.
Right. But since it's 2,400 for an ounce and you can buy it by the ounce, the player would only have to have the fame to purchase the 5k rod.
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the goal is to make a placeable wall of wood. as a towershield says "This massive wooden shield is nearly as tall as you are." which would mean that the shield would be tall enough to provide cover bonuses while the rod held it up.
Ok, well, it still would only take an ounce of the glue (2,400gp) to attach the rod, which is the most expensive component.
You'd only need to coat it if you were trying to glue the whole shield to something. Like the Half-Orc Barbarian.
lol that was funny.
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lol that was funny.the goal is to make a placeable wall of wood. as a towershield says "This massive wooden shield is nearly as tall as you are." which would mean that the shield would be tall enough to provide cover bonuses while the rod held it up.
Ok, well, it still would only take an ounce of the glue (2,400gp) to attach the rod, which is the most expensive component.
You'd only need to coat it if you were trying to glue the whole shield to something. Like the Half-Orc Barbarian.
Well, hey... The Half-Orc's a big guy, probably about 6' tall if not taller, so that'd take 5 ounces if the shield is 5' tall...
Then there's the question of whether the glue would persist between scenarios, and that might be the real show-stopper. I do like it though, its creative.
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Right. But since it's 2,400 for an ounce and you can buy it by the ounce, the player would only have to have the fame to purchase the 5k rod.Sovereign glue is not considered a "always available" item, so that's why I am applying the fame ruling to it. The rod of course still applies.
And the issue it's crafting, is because although it's "gluing" things together, it's still in essence "crafting" if you are a RAW rules person. Which is why I am here asking for advice.
Right, but what about if the shield gets damaged or broken and he has to re-buy everything? Or if the item is lost or destroyed. When does excessive gluing and re-gluing becomes crafting?
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Right, but what about if the shield gets damaged or broken and he has to re-buy everything? Or if the item is lost or destroyed. When does excessive gluing and re-gluing becomes crafting?
That portion has nothing to do with the fame allowance, and is therefore the player's problem should it arise.
As for whether or not it's crafting, I honestly dunno. I'd rule not, since it's just gluing things together, but I also don't think the glue would last between scenarios.
no problem, they get a bit cover. But its not like the enemy cannot sunder the shield.... it is afterall unattended.
Its a nice idea, but far from perfect.
A bit like my own, gluing two portable holes onto a fullplate and have the enemy swing their sword in the air, while im killing them :p
Right, but what about if the shield gets damaged or broken and he has to re-buy everything? Or if the item is lost or destroyed. When does excessive gluing and re-gluing becomes crafting?
That portion has nothing to do with the fame allowance, and is therefore the player's problem should it arise.
As for whether or not it's crafting, I honestly dunno. I'd rule not, since it's just gluing things together, but I also don't think the glue would last between scenarios.
Oh the glue lasts. That part wont come off untill treated with the universal solvent.
Shield might not last being pounded by swords/giant fists very long tho ;)
A bit like my own, gluing two portable holes onto a fullplate and have the enemy swing their sword in the air, while im killing them :p
Wait...you can glue portable holes...
I still don't understand why exactly the player wants to do this but.. it seems to be an expensive way to do something for a fraction of the price by the local armorer.
In my experience, I have in the past glued stuff with super glue only to have the objet break around the area where the glue is applied. So in the game, your player will one day be stuck with an immoveable rod with part of a tower shield on it....
And the point of this was what exactly? What does he want to achieve in the end? I am genuinely curious.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Sems to me it comes down to this: Is soverign gluing an effect?
All spells and effects end at the end of a scenario with the following exceptions:
• Spells and effects with permanent or instantaneous duration that heal damage or remove harmful conditions remain in effect at the end of the scenario.
• Afflictions and harmful conditions obtained during a scenario remain until healed and carry over from scenario to scenario.
• A character may have one each of the following spells that carries overs from scenario to scenario: continual flame,
masterwork transformation, secret chest, and secret page.
(emphasis mine)
I'd say no myself.
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Oh the glue lasts. That part wont come off untill treated with the universal solvent.
Shield might not last being pounded by swords/giant fists very long tho ;)
All spells and effects end at the end of a scenario with the following exceptions:
• Spells and effects with permanent or instantaneous duration that heal damage or remove harmful conditions remain in effect at the end of the scenario.
• Afflictions and harmful conditions obtained during a scenario remain until healed and carry over from scenario to scenario.
• A character may have one each of the following spells that carries overs from scenario to scenario: continual flame,
masterwork transformation, secret chest, and secret page.
(emphasis Morris' doing)
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For the same reason that other magical items don't end, I would say that Sovreign Glue doesn't either. Does a headband end? Does a magical sword end? Just because you use an item for its intended purpose doesn't mean that it would end. Unless the description of a magical item says it ends, I would presume it doesn't.
And on the crafting thing ... Crafting is when you "make" something. In this example, no one is making anything out of raw materials. They are using already made items in conjunction with each other. Using an oil or something on a blade doesn't require a craft check either.
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I'm not sure if assembling the items into one object falls under item creation. I also don't know how it is handled under used consumables carrying over from scenario to scenario. I'd certainly allow it for one scenario, whether or not the entire contraption carries over to the next game is something Mike or Mark would have to clarify.
If he uses the immovable rod tower shield. The player would not gain a shield bonus to AC from the shield. Both he and his opponents would suffer the penalties/bonuses for attacking around a hard corner in the appropriate squares. The shield becomes an unattended object and subjects it to AoE spells and Sunder attempts without the benefit of the character's stats.
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IIRC, for consumables carrying over, it was ruled that weapon blanching carries over, so I don't see why sovereign glue wouldn't carry over, as well.
And, also as mentioned, there are plenty of downsides as well as benefits from the combo.
Yes, that tower shield held in place by the rod grants you cover. But, as mentioned, it is usually going to be easier to sundr it, break it, make it burn/dispel/melt/etc. since it is no longer being held by anyone.
Heck, with a good Perception check, it might be possible for an intelligent enemy to confiscate the whole thing.
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For the same reason that other magical items don't end, I would say that Sovreign Glue doesn't either. Does a headband end? Does a magical sword end? Just because you use an item for its intended purpose doesn't mean that it would end. Unless the description of a magical item says it ends, I would presume it doesn't.
And on the crafting thing ... Crafting is when you "make" something. In this example, no one is making anything out of raw materials. They are using already made items in conjunction with each other. Using an oil or something on a blade doesn't require a craft check either.
However, up until the newest version of the guide (which leaves me unsure of how it'd be handled now), there were effects that ended at the end of a scenario. Continual Flame, which has a duration of permanent, ended at the end of every scenario, as did Masterwork Transformation. While this is no longer the case, I don't know how the effects of Sovereign Glue would be handled.
All I'm saying is there's a precedent for such effects ending at the end of a scenario.
EDIT: Ninja'd. Except there's the fact that it is an item's effect, much like a weapon blanch, so... Hard to say.
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IMHO, the glue takes the crafting out of it, the user is only applying it (someone crafted the glue like someone writes a scroll). Also it is similar to spells with an instantaneous effect (except it takes one round). Once it is bonded the magic goes away.
However, the tower shield as cover is only good for one round.
Shield, Tower: This massive wooden shield is nearly as tall as you are. In most situations, it provides the indicated shield bonus to your AC. As a standard action, however, you can use a tower shield to grant you total cover until the beginning of your next turn. When using a tower shield in this way, you must choose one edge of your space. That edge is treated as a solid wall for attacks targeting you only. You gain total cover for attacks that pass through this edge and no cover for attacks that do not pass through this edge (see Combat). The shield does not, however, provide cover against targeted spells; a spellcaster can cast a spell on you by targeting the shield you are holding. You cannot bash with a tower shield, nor can you use your shield hand for anything else.
When employing a tower shield in combat, you take a –2 penalty on attack rolls because of the shield's encumbrance.
My emphasis. And one also needs to be proficient with shields.
In non-PFS I would allow partial coverage after the first round. Cause, its cool.
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IMHO, the glue takes the crafting out of it, the user is only applying it (someone crafted the glue like someone writes a scroll). Also it is similar to spells with an instantaneous effect (except it takes one round). Once it is bonded the magic goes away.
However, the tower shield as cover is only good for one round.
Shield, Tower: This massive wooden shield is nearly as tall as you are. In most situations, it provides the indicated shield bonus to your AC. As a standard action, however, you can use a tower shield to grant you total cover until the beginning of your next turn. When using a tower shield in this way, you must choose one edge of your space. That edge is treated as a solid wall for attacks targeting you only. You gain total cover for attacks that pass through this edge and no cover for attacks that do not pass through this edge (see Combat). The shield does not, however, provide cover against targeted spells; a spellcaster can cast a spell on you by targeting the shield you are holding. You cannot bash with a tower shield, nor can you use your shield hand for anything else.
When employing a tower shield in combat, you take a –2 penalty on attack rolls because of the shield's encumbrance.
My emphasis. And one also needs to be proficient with shields.
In non-PFS I would allow partial coverage after the first round. Cause, its cool.
the fact that it is a shield is secondary to what the item does. change out tower shield and put in door. would a door provide cover, it would. the discription of the shield states it is"almost as tall as you are", so it should provid cover, even if it isnt used as a shield, in this case it would be a baracade.
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What is the action to stand behind a door to gain cover? Full? Standard? Move? Free? None, it becomes GM call.
Tower shield's cover rules are spelled out. Which means for PFS it is a standard action and lasts for one round.
Non-pfs, like I said, it would be Ok by me :) Carrying a door around... meh... not so much (because it goes from neat idea to cheese), YMMV :)
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see the tower shield is "almost as tall as you are" so that means more then 50% of the PC's body is covered. and the rules for cover state:
"Total Cover
If you don't have line of effect to your target (that is, you cannot draw any line from your square to your target's square without crossing a solid barrier), he is considered to have total cover from you. You can't make an attack against a target that has total cover."
the "baracade" would be concidered a solid barrier for this. i mean if you wanted to hit the cleric with something, run next to him and start slappin him around. i doesnt seem broken to me, and i cant find a rule that wouldnt allow it to function.
if the gm chose to cock block it, there isnt anything a player can do.
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The question I have is - how long does it take to use?
Normally the tower shield is a standard action as mentioned above. But this assumes you wear it. I rather see the use different in this case:
Removing a shield - 1 move action
Activating the immovable rod - 1 move action
So it certainly works as a double move action. But this is a full round action then and seems to nerf it. But I don't see how to use it 'faster' and stay inside the rules.
So it seems to me more trouble as use - unless you allow it to be done 'faster' which I don't think is right.
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Why not carry a Darkwood Tower shield 45lb 1/2 weight = 22.5lb. For a small sized creature 1/2 weight = 11.25lb.
Cast Reduce person on him, or be a small creature. And have an Unseen Servant, walk around carrying a Tower Shield for him? Since it's a force, and not a creature, they could share the same 5' space.
Or maybe cast floating disk, and have several Tower Shields tied together around it, with a tower shield tied to the base of the disk, so you could stand on it, and you have a floating barricade. You can hide with cover +10 stealth!
Then have your invisible wizard move towards the enemy, with the floating disk barricade following closely behind.
Finally, have the wizard cast Silent image, and concentrate on it to look like a Gazebo.
The Gazebo sneak attacks!
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Why not carry a Darkwood Tower shield 45lb 1/2 weight = 22.5lb. For a small sized creature 1/2 weight = 11.25lb.
Cast Reduce person on him, or be a small creature. And have an Unseen Servant, walk around carrying a Tower Shield for him? Since it's a force, and not a creature, they could share the same 5' space.Or maybe cast floating disk, and have several Tower Shields tied together around it, with a tower shield tied to the base of the disk, so you could stand on it, and you have a floating barricade. You can hide with cover +10 stealth!
Then have your invisible wizard move towards the enemy, with the floating disk barricade following closely behind.
Finally, have the wizard cast Silent image, and concentrate on it to look like a Gazebo.The Gazebo sneak attacks!
I have my next character concept, thank you very much!
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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I LOVE this idea and this player! This player sounds creative and I don't really want to stomp on that, so here are a few of my thoughts:
1) Since sovereign glue is not called out as one of the few effects that can persist, I have to assume that the glue wears off between scenarios.
2) Once the rod is activated, you are no longer receiving the Shield bonus to AC, or the Armor check, or the penalty to attack rolls, or the arcane spell failure chance, as the shield is now its own free-floating item.
3) Since a tower shield only provides total cover when you use a standard action to hide behind it, you would need to spend a standard action standing next to the shield to grant yourself total cover - without doing so I would say the shield is only providing partial cover, similar to a low-wall
4) Tower Shields are directional when used, so I would have the player draw a 5' long line on the map to represent the facing of the shield. The shield does not take up a 5' square, but does occupy the intersection of 2 squares, much like a wall would.
5) A proper sunder on the shield would leave just the undamaged rod hanging in mid air - you would not sunder both items as they are still technically 2 different items. Also note that the Immovable Rod allows a STR check to dislodge it's power and move it again.
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see the tower shield is "almost as tall as you are" so that means more then 50% of the PC's body is covered. and the rules for cover state:
"Total Cover
If you don't have line of effect to your target (that is, you cannot draw any line from your square to your target's square without crossing a solid barrier), he is considered to have total cover from you. You can't make an attack against a target that has total cover."
the "baracade" would be concidered a solid barrier for this. i mean if you wanted to hit the cleric with something, run next to him and start slappin him around. i doesnt seem broken to me, and i cant find a rule that wouldnt allow it to function.
if the gm chose to cock block it, there isnt anything a player can do.
A tower shield is not a solid object. A person needs to use a standard action to treat it like a solid object. It is a shield not a barricade. A door portaged around is not a solid object. Neither are a shrunken five foot portable wall nor an invisible stalker. If you think the immovable rod gets past that, ok go for it, but really there are easier ways to get cover. :)
I am G'Zeb O barik Ade, half-orc bodygauard :)
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HUH?A tower shield is not a solid object.
I dinnae mean to say it is gaseous or insubstantial. :) I mean that it moves; one can hold it in a single hand, drop it, carry it around, or pack it in the attic. It moves. Unlike a wall, or a rampart, or a tree, or a cottage or a (ignoring the exception above :) gazebo. One can spend a standard action to grant cover (like a solid object) but it is not cover in and of itself.