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Hello,
I'm currently building a sorcerer with the serpentine bloodline.
I thought of taking the tattooed sorcerer archetype.
Now if don't know how to handle the fact I'm getting two familiars:
1st Level (through archetype):
Familiar Tattoo (Su) - [...]as a wizard equal to her sorcerer level[...]
3rd Level (through bloodline):
Serpentfriend (Ex): [...]and you gain a viper familiar using your sorcerer level –2 as your effective wizard level.
How to handle that?
If those abilities were gained through different classes I understand they would stack - but as they are from the same class this would mean a lvl4 familiar at lvl3 (and a lvl38 familiar at lvl20) Don't think this could be right...
Neither do I think I would get two familiars (or do I?)...
I think they stack, but i'm not sure.
Edit: and by that I mean one familiar using the higherst applicable level.
Huh... I believe you'd have two familiars in this case. Although Tiny Coffee Golem might be right.
Talk to your GM, ask him to allows you to get an Improved Familiar instead of a two ordinary ones or a wasted class feature (since the Seperntfriend is made obsolkete by the Familiar Tattoo).
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I think they stack, but i'm not sure.
Edit: and by that I mean one familiar using the higherst applicable level.
I actually think in this case you would gain two familiars. The wizard description of Arcane Bond says that you can never have both a familiar and a bonded object, but these are two abilities within the same class that are granting familiars, so I would think you could have one familiar tattoo (at your total Sorcerer level as effective Wizard level) and another serpent familiar (at -2 effective level).
Then, if you ever decided to multiclass into Witch or Wizard, your levels of one of those classes would stack with ONE of the two familiars (you would choose which familiar gains the benefit at any given level).
It could work either way. It just seems to cheapen the "familiar" concept to have more than one. That's just my opinon though.
Here's a fun monkeywrench for this particular machine.
If you have two familiars and have a 1/d effect, such as scrying. Is that per familiar or once total?
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You can't stack the same class feature twice. You can have one arcane bond and that's it.
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I don't think you can really state that in such broad terms. There's nothing in the rules that says "If you gain a familiar twice through features of the same class, you only gain the benefits of the highest effective wizard level."
This is the closest thing to a ruling I can find on it:
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Levels of different classes that are entitled to familiars stack for the purpose of determining any familiar abilities that depend on the master's level.
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Emphasis mine. This says nothing about the same class granting you a familiar twice. While this is definitely a fringe case, I think the rules would state that the Tattooed Serpentine Sorcerer gets two familiars.
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Here's a fun monkeywrench for this particular machine.
If you have two familiars and have a 1/d effect, such as scrying. Is that per familiar or once total?
If you do actually get the class feature twice, then you should get to use any associated abilities from that class feature seperately, so you'd get to scry once per day on EACH familiar.
Again, this is obviously a fringe case, and very worthy of a FAQ.
If where me as GM it would be two or let have one and 1st level abilty back or eschew materials back since you gave that up for arca type.
What does the Tattooed Sorcerer give up to gain the Familiar Tattoo? Does that archetype constrain choice of bloodline in any way?
If the answer to either question points to something you overlooked, that might resolve the problem.
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What does the Tattooed Sorcerer give up to gain the Familiar Tattoo? Does that archetype constrain choice of bloodline in any way?
If the answer to either question points to something you overlooked, that might resolve the problem.
The Tattooed Sorcerer gives up Eschew Materials and their 1st-level bloodline power to get the familiar. That doesn't affect the 3rd-level bloodline power at all, so Serpentine bloodline still gets another familiar.
@Ascalaphus: You COULD argue that the levels would stack for one familiar, but I don't think that would be fair since familiars don't actually gain much from being higher level, since most of their statistics are based solely on the Sorcerer's statistics. I think it's actually more reasonable in this case to assume two familiars.
I'd ask the GM to be allowed to at least keep Eschew Material in place of Serpent Friend.
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You can't stack the same class feature twice. You can have one arcane bond and that's it..
I don't think you can really state that in such broad terms. There's nothing in the rules that says "If you gain a familiar twice through features of the same class, you only gain the benefits of the highest effective wizard level."
This is the closest thing to a ruling I can find on it:
Emphasis mine. This says nothing about the same class granting you a familiar twice. While this is definitely a fringe case, I think the rules would state that the Tattooed Serpentine Sorcerer gets two familiars.
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Levels of different classes that are entitled to familiars stack for the purpose of determining any familiar abilities that depend on the master's level.
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Level 1: character decides to go Sorcerer and takes Tattooed Sorcerer and picks a familiar, doesn't matter which type.
1.) This is an Arcane Bond, as defined by the TS archetype
2.) An arcane bond is defined as a "familiar or a bonded object."
OK no problems, you get a familiar, just like a wizard does.
Level 2: whatever
Level 3: Bloodline Power 3rd, you get everything listed but the viper familiar? Why? You already have one! Though you can stack Sorcerer levels with your Sorcerer levels with...nothing, so it still operates as a 3rd level familiar.
1.) Gaining a viper familiar follows the rules for Arcane Bond, as a wizard, that's what a familiar is after all, an extension of the Arcane Bond class feature.
2.) Witch's familiars are also Arcane Bond's, with a few additional rules tacked on, but are still familiars in the wizard bonded sense. I just wrote that for kicks, but if you later take Witch it comes into play, let's not go there though.
No where in there, does it say, it's OK to have 2 familiars. And picking apart the wording where it labels "different classes" as a justification that it's OK is clearly trumped by the very definition of an Arcane Bond, which is "A familiar, or a bonded object" not "familiars" "a" familiar.
If you're going to try and twist the RAW in this case to leave a door open for 2 familiars, you're overlooking the fact the Arcane Bond class feature seems clear enough.
It's also mildly backed up via the same question asked, and answered by a PFS coordinator:
Michael Brock (Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator) Apr 29,
'You may only have one familiar at a time in PFS.'
Linky
Granted that is PFS, and not always 'the game table' rules.
Seems pretty "min/max-y" to me anyway, and not with the 'spirit of the rules,' which I admit is not the sole basis of this forum, but come on. :)
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You can't stack the same class feature twice. You can have one arcane bond and that's it..
I don't think you can really state that in such broad terms. There's nothing in the rules that says "If you gain a familiar twice through features of the same class, you only gain the benefits of the highest effective wizard level."
This is the closest thing to a ruling I can find on it:
Emphasis mine. This says nothing about the same class granting you a familiar twice. While this is definitely a fringe case, I think the rules would state that the Tattooed Serpentine Sorcerer gets two familiars.
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Levels of different classes that are entitled to familiars stack for the purpose of determining any familiar abilities that depend on the master's level.
...Level 1: character decides to go Sorcerer and takes Tattooed Sorcerer and picks a familiar, doesn't matter which type.
1.) This is an Arcane Bond, as defined by the TS archetype
2.) An arcane bond is defined as a "familiar or a bonded object."
OK no problems, you get a familiar, just like a wizard does.Level 2: whatever
Level 3: Bloodline Power 3rd, you get everything listed but the viper familiar? Why? You already have one! Though you can stack Sorcerer levels with your Sorcerer levels with...nothing, so it still operates as a 3rd level familiar.
1.) Gaining a viper familiar follows the rules for Arcane Bond, as a wizard, that's what a familiar is after all, an extension of the Arcane Bond class feature.
2.) Witch's familiars are also Arcane Bond's, with a few additional rules tacked on, but are still familiars in the wizard bonded sense. I just wrote that for kicks, but if you later take Witch it comes into play, let's not go there though.
No where in there, does it say, it's OK to have 2 familiars. And picking apart the wording where it labels "different classes" as a justification that it's OK is clearly trumped by the very...
I agree with everything you said here except for this:
No where in there, does it say, it's OK to have 2 familiars. And picking apart the wording where it labels "different classes" as a justification that it's OK is clearly trumped by the very definition of an Arcane Bond, which is "A familiar, or a bonded object" not "familiars" "a" familiar.
No, nowhere in the rules does it say "it's OK to have 2 familiars" but it also doesn't say anywhere in the rules "you can't have two familiars even if you gain them both from the same class". Like I said before, this is definitely a fringe case but the rules as they're written definitely don't preclude the character from having two familiars. Is it how the rules were intended? Absolutely not. Doesn't mean it's AGAINST those rules.
If you brought this character to a PFS table, the GM could say "the rules say you can't have two familiars at once in a PFS game." This is because it's been specified that you can't have more than one combat companion in PFS, and that's to keep turns from getting too long. It has nothing to do with the question at hand.
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If the general rule says _____, then you need another rule specifically stating that general rule can be ignored. I don't see such a rule that allows for 2 familiars.
where is the tattooed sorcerer archetype from?
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where is the tattooed sorcerer archetype from?
It's from Inner Sea Magic. Here's a link:
Tattooed Sorcerer
Note that the exact same case can come up in a similar way, with a wizard taking the Eldritch Heritage feat and selecting the Arcane bloodline. Is there an agreed to answer as to what happens in that case?
If the general rule says _____, then you need another rule specifically stating that general rule can be ignored. I don't see such a rule that allows for 2 familiars.I don't see a general rule that DIS-allows for 2 familiars...?
Levels of different classes that are entitled to familiars stack for the purpose of determining any familiar abilities that depend on the master's level.
The general rules says that class level stack to determine familiar level. That is pretty much saying that if a 2nd class grants a familiar you stack the class level instead of gaining a second familiar. If each class was intended to get its own familiar, since classes level don't generally stack, then that ruling would not have been made.
Now in this case you only have 1 class, but you have 2 different class levels in play. It is not different than if you multiclass between wizard and sorcerer. You get one familiar, not two.
Note that the exact same case can come up in a similar way, with a wizard taking the Eldritch Heritage feat and selecting the Arcane bloodline. Is there an agreed to answer as to what happens in that case?
You get one familiar with a rather high level because both abilities that grant you familiars stack.
So the Familiar's level will be: wizard level + (character level -2)|
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Note that the exact same case can come up in a similar way, with a wizard taking the Eldritch Heritage feat and selecting the Arcane bloodline. Is there an agreed to answer as to what happens in that case?
You get one familiar with a rather high level because both abilities that grant you familiars stack.
So the Familiar's level will be: wizard level + (character level -2)
No. You don't. The 'abilities' do not stack, they are the same class feature.
A level 3 Sorcerer gets a level 3 powered familiar. Period.
Levels in other classes that are granted a familiar will stack, sure, but you wouldn't stack the same level with itself twice.
Your math would only work if he originally gained a familiar from a class other than sorcerer.
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I agree with ya LazarX, but it's simpler than all that. It's a class feature he would of got at a reduced level at 3rd, but because he took an archetype at 1st he got it sooner, and better, than the 3rd level would have been.
So they still wont stack, it's the same class feature. Same as not stacking Simple Weapons with Simple Weapons to get an improved version of simple weapons. Silly example, but that's what this issue reads to me as.
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If the general rule says _____, then you need another rule specifically stating that general rule can be ignored. I don't see such a rule that allows for 2 familiars.I don't see a general rule that DIS-allows for 2 familiars...?
The general rule for Arcane Bond allows 1 familiar or 1 bonded object. If your only allowed 1, that DIS-allows 2.
Note that the exact same case can come up in a similar way, with a wizard taking the Eldritch Heritage feat and selecting the Arcane bloodline. Is there an agreed to answer as to what happens in that case?
You get one familiar with a rather high level because both abilities that grant you familiars stack.
So the Familiar's level will be: wizard level + (character level -2)No. You don't. The 'abilities' do not stack, they are the same class feature.
A level 3 Sorcerer gets a level 3 powered familiar. Period.
Levels in other classes that are granted a familiar will stack, sure, but you wouldn't stack the same level with itself twice.
Your math would only work if he originally gained a familiar from a class other than sorcerer.
He gets one familiar from being a Wizard and the other one from having a sorceror bloodline power. One is a wizard ability, the other a sorceror ability.
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He gets one familiar from being a Wizard and the other one from having a sorceror bloodline power. One is a wizard ability, the other a sorceror ability.Note that the exact same case can come up in a similar way, with a wizard taking the Eldritch Heritage feat and selecting the Arcane bloodline. Is there an agreed to answer as to what happens in that case?
You get one familiar with a rather high level because both abilities that grant you familiars stack.
So the Familiar's level will be: wizard level + (character level -2)No. You don't. The 'abilities' do not stack, they are the same class feature.
A level 3 Sorcerer gets a level 3 powered familiar. Period.
Levels in other classes that are granted a familiar will stack, sure, but you wouldn't stack the same level with itself twice.
Your math would only work if he originally gained a familiar from a class other than sorcerer.
I agree with Umbranus on this one. If you are able to get the Familiar class feature twice from the same class, you should get two familiars. I don't know why you'd WANT to, but it seems clear to me that it should work that way.
The general rule for Arcane Bond allows 1 familiar or 1 bonded object. If your only allowed 1, that DIS-allows 2.
Winterwalker, you're being way too general here. The rule you're talking about doesn't explicitly say "ONLY ONE ARCANE BOND OR FAMILIAR EVER EVER EVER". The general rule for Arcane Bond says that instead of gaining a familiar from, say, witch levels and an arcane bond from Wizard levels you gained later, you are required to take the Familiar feature for your Wizard levels add the levels together instead to determine your familiar level. This says NOTHING about gaining two Familiars from the same class levels.
Let me also point out that if you took a few levels of Wizard with Arcane Bond and then took a level of Witch, you wouldn't keep adding levels to your arcane bond, you would actually gain a Witch familiar, because they are different class features (the witch version does not allow for an Arcane Bond instead of a Familiar). You also wouldn't lose your Arcane Bond, because you had that ability before you started Multiclassing.
Again, this is a fringe case where the general rules are TOO general and do not give a clear answer. You're letting your personal opinions cloud your interpretation of the rules, IMHO.
You're very wrong. Plus, He isn't even a wizard. He's a Sorcerer.
And even if that were true (which would be a lot easier) then the levels would only stack to determine what level his familiar operates at, not grant him another familiar.
You don't get 2 familiars.
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a wizard taking the Eldritch Heritage feat ...You get one familiar with a rather high level
Someone asked what happens when a wizard takes eldritch heritage, I told him he gets a high level familiar. So why are I so very wrong?
Just read dude.
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@cartmanbeck
I'm not going to add Witch to this, they are an exception, and not what is being discussed. They follow their own rules as stated in their class description. No one was arguing how a Witch familiar works either.
No one is arguing what happens when adding Witch to the table. Witch trumps all other arcane bonds by it's write up. That's an example of a new rule modifying an old rule. That's 100% fine, that's how it should work.
Tattooed Sorcerer also works fine, it has clear rules for how it operates. Just like a normal Wizard Arcane bond.
If this character then becomes a Witch later, add in the Witch familiar caveats, no problem.
Here is why it won't add up.
"and you gain a viper familiar using your sorcerer level –2 as your effective wizard level."
IF that said anything but 'wizard level' you could make a case that it DIDN'T operate like a wizards arcane bond.
Both Sorcerer granted 'familiar' abilities/class features/whatever rely on the Wizard Arcane Bond class feature. They both specifically say they operate at a wizard level. It is one and the same. That is not opinion that is RAW. The bloodline power could have been better worded, but it is still clear enough.
Therefore it operates under the umbrella that is Arcane Bond. 1 familiar. This is not my opinion, it's how the rules are laid out.
No one is saying in your personal games that if you convince the GMs it's cool with him that he can have it.
The RAW seems clear enough to me and others though.
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You're very wrong. Plus, He isn't even a wizard. He's a Sorcerer.
And even if that were true (which would be a lot easier) then the levels would only stack to determine what level his familiar operates at, not grant him another familiar.
You don't get 2 familiars.
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a wizard taking the Eldritch Heritage feat ...You get one familiar with a rather high levelSomeone asked what happens when a wizard takes eldritch heritage, I told him he gets a high level familiar. So why are I so very wrong?
Just read dude.
OK I did read it.
In the few seconds it took, I will reverse it back on you to read it back to me and explain how that feat gives him a more powerful familiar if 1.) it only grants a 1st level bloodline power, and 2.) the bloodline power we are discussing is a 3rd level power.
Take your time, I'll wait.
You yourself said it would stack for what his familiar operates at.
then the levels would only stack to determine what level his familiar operates at
And by the way the power we are discussing is a first level power. Unless you are not discussing arcane bon to get a familiar.
Arcane Bond (Su): At 1st level, you gain an arcane bond, as a wizard equal to your sorcerer level. Your sorcerer levels stack with any wizard levels you possess when determining the powers of your familiar or bonded object.
And while I am at it the power explicitly states that it stacks with wizard levels.
I agree that the rules are not explicit enough to clear define this case. However, I think it is pretty clear that only 1 familiar for each character is intended.
I don't think a second familiar would be game breaking since they are usually so weak in combat. The potential issue is if you take improved familiar and have 2 of them being wand monkeys. Pretty heafty benifit in action economy.
If the player was really dead set on it and I allowed 2 familiars I would probably say you can't take improved familiar for both.
But I would rather not allow 2. I might give say a +2 to caster level for purposes of familiar abilities and feats.
I would absolutely LOVE to see a developer response for how this is supposed to work, as it seems there are convincing arguments on many different approaches.
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Someone asked what happens when a wizard takes eldritch heritage, I told him he gets a high level familiar. So why are I so very wrong?
Just read dude.
Well you should apologize to him and tell him why you are wrong. The Bloodline power is a 3rd level power, and this feat does not help here. That is why you are 'very wrong' on this example.
You yourself said it would stack for what his familiar operates at.
And by the way the power we are discussing is a first level power. Unless you are not discussing arcane bon to get a familiar.
And while I am at it the power explicitly states that it stacks with wizard levels.
While this particular scenario/build, does NOT have wizard levels, should he take an actual level in Wizard later, yes it would 'stack' with the current familiars 'effective' level.
I don't think you truly understand what it is we are talking about, which is not meant to be insulting.
Tattooed Sorcerer, no problems!
Arcane Bloodline, no problems!
Wizards and familiars no problems!
Adding Tattooed Sorcerer and then trying to use the Bloodline power to get a 2nd familiar, big problem there.
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When adding an Archetype into the equation there are additional snafus that do not allow this that I had just thought of. I will rip out the sections that apply here, but include the spoiler as a wall of text you can review.
From the rules:
The primary way in which archetypes modify their corresponding base classes is via the use of alternate class features. When a character selects a class, he must normally choose to use the standard class features found in the class's original source—the exception is if he chooses to adopt an archetype. Each alternate class feature presented in an archetype a specific class feature from its parent class. For example, the flowing monk archetype's redirection class feature replaces the Stunning Fist feature of the standard monk class.
When an archetype includes multiple alternate class features, a character must take them all—often blocking the character from ever gaining certain standard class features(, but replacing them with other options. All other class features of the base class that aren't mentioned among the alternate class features remain unchanged and are acquired normally when the character reaches the appropriate level, unless noted otherwise. A character who takes an alternate class feature does not count as having the class feature that was replaced for the purposes of meeting any requirements or prerequisites.
WW: This means that he cannot even get the familiar feature of the bloodline power as it's a base feature that was replaced by the archetype version of a familiar.
Alternate Class Features
The primary way in which archetypes modify their corresponding base classes is via the use of alternate class features. When a character selects a class, he must normally choose to use the standard class features found in the class's original source—the exception is if he chooses to adopt an archetype. Each alternate class feature presented in an archetype replaces a specific class feature from its parent class. For example, the flowing monk archetype's redirection class feature replaces the Stunning Fist feature of the standard monk class.
When an archetype includes multiple alternate class features, a character must take them all—often blocking the character from ever gaining certain standard class features, but replacing them with other options. All other class features of the base class that aren't mentioned among the alternate class features remain unchanged and are acquired normally when the character reaches the appropriate level, unless noted otherwise. A character who takes an alternate class feature does not count as having the class feature that was replaced for the purposes of meeting any requirements or prerequisites.
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the base class as another alternate class feature. For example, a fighter could not be both an armor master and a brawler, since both archetypes replace the weapon training 1 class feature with something different.
If an archetype replaces a class feature that is part of a series of improvements or additions to a base ability (such as a fighter's weapon training or a ranger's favored enemy), the next time the character would gain that ability, it counts as the lower-level ability that was replaced by the archetype. In effect, all abilities in that series are delayed until the next time the class improves that ability. For example, if an archetype replaces a rogue's +2d6 sneak attack bonus at 3rd level, when she reaches 5th level and gains a sneak attack bonus, her sneak attack doesn't jump from +1d6 to +3d6—it improves to +2d6, just as if she had finally gained the increase at 3rd level. This adjustment continues for every level at which her sneak attack would improve, until at 19th level she has +9d6 instead of the +10d6 of a standard rogue.
As a GM I would still allow this character to gain the other 3rd level bloodline powers, as they are kinda cool, and are not specifically called out to be replaced by taking the tattooed archetype.
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When adding an Archetype into the equation there are additional snafus that do not allow this that I had just thought of. I will rip out the sections that apply here, but include the spoiler as a wall of text you can review.
From the rules:
The primary way in which archetypes modify their corresponding base classes is via the use of alternate class features. When a character selects a class, he must normally choose to use the standard class features found in the class's original source—the exception is if he chooses to adopt an archetype. Each alternate class feature presented in an archetype a specific class feature from its parent class. For example, the flowing monk archetype's redirection class feature replaces the Stunning Fist feature of the standard monk class.When an archetype includes multiple alternate class features, a character must take them all—often blocking the character from ever gaining certain standard class features(, but replacing them with other options. All other class features of the base class that aren't mentioned among the alternate class features remain unchanged and are acquired normally when the character reaches the appropriate level, unless noted otherwise. A character who takes an alternate class feature does not count as having the class feature that was replaced for the purposes of meeting any requirements or prerequisites.
WW: This means that he cannot even get the familiar feature of the bloodline power as it's a base feature that was replaced by the archetype version of a familiar.
** spoiler omitted **...
I'm going to counterpoint a few of the points you made, but you are definitely getting somewhere.
When a character selects a class, he must normally choose to use the standard class features found in the class's original source—the exception is if he chooses to adopt an archetype.
...often blocking the character from ever gaining certain standard class features...
This is talking about replacing later abilities with archetype-specific abilities. A good example is the Archaeologist bard, which replaces the Bardic Performance ability. This means that all later abilities based on Bardic Performance are forfeit, such as suggestion and inspire greatness. This doesn't actually impact the Sorcerer we're talking about here, because the abilities that are replaced at first level to gain Tattoo Familiar is Eschew Materials and the 1st-level bloodline power, neither of which cause any later powers to not be gained.
A character who takes an alternate class feature does not count as having the class feature that was replaced for the purposes of meeting any requirements or prerequisites
This also doesn't have anything to do with the current argument, since again the abilities that he would not count as having are Eschew Materials and whatever the 1st-level bloodline power is for his bloodline.
WW: This means that he cannot even get the familiar feature of the bloodline power as it's a base feature that was replaced by the archetype version of a familiar.
I don't really think I follow your logic on this one. Are you saying that the "Tattooed Familiar" class feature replaces the "Familiar" class feature for that archetype? Because I don't think that argument works, since the "Familiar" class feature is not a feature of the Sorcerer class... it's a Wizard class feature that is being ported over to the Sorcerer thanks to his bloodline.
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boiled down:
Each alternate class feature presented in an archetype replaces a specific class feature from its parent class.
I.E. Tattoed Sorcerers alternate feature (gain a familiar) would replace a Sorcerers baseline feature (of a gaining a familiar) gained at his 3rd level.
It totally applies. His baseline class is Sorcerer and he chose a bloodline that grants a feature. That feature will/would be replaced when he pops the archetype on top of it.
Good bye familiar from the bloodline, you have been replaced. Albeit a better, more flexible familiar than he would of gotten out of the deal.
@Winterwalker: Besides what the thread opener wanted to know some other question was asked by David knott 242. My answers refer to that second question. This second question is about a Wizard with eldritch heritage (arcane) wich gives him the 1st level (!) bloodline power to get a familiar.
I quoted the relevant quotes multiple times.
That you ignore this and keep on telling that I'm wrong while I am talking about something else than you wich you don't get as you don't seem to read very much/well is annoying.
Please don't keep on antagonizing me. That is rude. I'm just trying to answer David knott's question.
Just to repeat his question once more:
Note that the exact same case can come up in a similar way, with a wizard taking the Eldritch Heritage feat and selecting the Arcane bloodline. Is there an agreed to answer as to what happens in that case?
Except for someone answering another question is is rather clear because the bloodline power explicitly states that it stacks with the wizard arcane bond power.
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@Winterwalker: Besides what the thread opener wanted to know some other question was asked by David knott 242. My answers refer to that second question. This second question is about a Wizard with eldritch heritage (arcane) wich gives him the 1st level (!) bloodline power to get a familiar.
I quoted the relevant quotes multiple times.
That you ignore this and keep on telling that I'm wrong while I am talking about something else than you wich you don't get as you don't seem to read very much/well is annoying.
Please don't keep on antagonizing me. That is rude. I'm just trying to answer David knott's question.
Just to repeat his question once more:
Note that the exact same case can come up in a similar way, with a wizard taking the Eldritch Heritage feat and selecting the Arcane bloodline. Is there an agreed to answer as to what happens in that case?Except for someone answering another question is is rather clear because the bloodline power explicitly states that it stacks with the wizard arcane bond power.
Umbranus, another question should have it's own thread. Make that thread and I will comment further on it there for you. This thread is about stacking tattooed sorcerer and taking the serpentine bloodline. And how I phrased my response, based on the OPs subject, not the assumption you just made clearer.
This would however also be a moot point, because the sorcerer in this scenario would not have that bloodline, he is asking about the serpentine bloodline.
The fact you strayed off topic is why I answered you as you did. Though it would also be rendered moot, as they both use the rules for Arcane bond, and you still wouldn't get a second familiar.
No one is arguing that levels of classes with arcane bond wouldn't stack, which is why I also added this wasn't meant to be intentional offense above.
It was clear you were arguing apples, and we were arguing pears here.
So this scenario a Wizard takes the arcane heritage feat to grab a sorcerer bloodline power.
Arcane Bond (Su): At 1st level, you gain an arcane bond, as a wizard equal to your sorcerer level. Your sorcerer levels stack with any wizard levels you possess when determining the powers of your familiar or bonded object. Once per day, your bonded item allows you to cast any one of your spells known (unlike a wizard’s bonded item, which allows him to cast any one spell in his spellbook). This ability does not allow you to have both a familiar and a bonded item.
Example 1:
He is a Wizard level 1
What level is his familiar? 1
Why? He has 1 "level" of wizard and 0 "levels" of sorcerer.
How many familiars does he get? 1
Example 2:
He is now a wiz1/sor1
What level is his familiar? 2
Why? He has 1 "level" of wizard and 1 "level" of sorcerer.
How many familiars does he get? 1
Repeat to infinity.
Now HOW does that equal taking 1 level and getting 2 familiars, or even a 2 level worth of power familiar? It doesn't.
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boiled down:
Each alternate class feature presented in an archetype replaces a specific class feature from its parent class.
I.E. Tattoed Sorcerers alternate feature (gain a familiar) would replace a Sorcerers baseline feature (of a gaining a familiar) gained at his 3rd level.
It totally applies. His baseline class is Sorcerer and he chose a bloodline that grants a feature. That feature will/would be replaced when he pops the archetype on top of it.
Good bye familiar from the bloodline, you have been replaced. Albeit a better, more flexible familiar than he would of gotten out of the deal.
Except that the alternate class feature being replaced with Tattoo Familiar is Eschew Materials! It has nothing to do with the Familiar class feature later gained through the bloodline! You're reading "alternate class feature" as "class feature with changes made to it" whereas when it's used in that context it means "class feature that the archetype gains in place of an entirely unrelated base class feature.
To reiterate my point, Tattoo Familiar is an alternate class feature replacing the following normal Sorcerer class features:
-Eschew Materials (1st level)
-1st bloodline power (1st level)
It in no way impacts or affects the 3rd-level bloodline power, which in the case of the Serpentine bloodline gives you a normal familiar at effective wizard level equal to sorcerer level - 2.
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boiled down:
Each alternate class feature presented in an archetype replaces a specific class feature from its parent class.
I.E. Tattoed Sorcerers alternate feature (gain a familiar) would replace a Sorcerers baseline feature (of a gaining a familiar) gained at his 3rd level.
It totally applies. His baseline class is Sorcerer and he chose a bloodline that grants a feature. That feature will/would be replaced when he pops the archetype on top of it.
Good bye familiar from the bloodline, you have been replaced. Albeit a better, more flexible familiar than he would of gotten out of the deal.
Except that the alternate class feature being replaced with Tattoo Familiar is Eschew Materials! It has nothing to do with the Familiar class feature later gained through the bloodline! You're reading "alternate class feature" as "class feature with changes made to it" whereas when it's used in that context it means "class feature that the archetype gains in place of an entirely unrelated base class feature.
To reiterate my point, Tattoo Familiar is an alternate class feature replacing the following normal Sorcerer class features:
-Eschew Materials (1st level)
-1st bloodline power (1st level)
It in no way impacts or affects the 3rd-level bloodline power, which in the case of the Serpentine bloodline gives you a normal familiar at effective wizard level equal to sorcerer level - 2.
Ya OK, I'll give you that by Raw. Fair enough point.
But I'm not giving you 2 familiars based on that, as he is just gaining Arcane Bond a 2nd time, and that doesn't grant a 2nd familiar, only that he may continue to use his sorcerer class levels -2, as his effective wizard levels in regards to what level his 1 familiar is.
A normal familiar operates under the rules for arcane bond, unless otherwise pointed out.
Whats all the huff?
There have been feats and class features that allow multiple familiars in every edition of the game sence AD&D.
Hell, I ran a 2.0 witch with 7 cat familiars. Line of sight was awesum. :)
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Whats all the huff?
There have been feats and class features that allow multiple familiars in every edition of the game sence AD&D.
Hell, I ran a 2.0 witch with 7 cat familiars. Line of sight was awesum. :)
It's the rules forum. Order is paramount.
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Ya OK, I'll give you that by Raw. Fair enough point.
But I'm not giving you 2 familiars based on that, as he is just gaining Arcane Bond a 2nd time, and that doesn't grant a 2nd familiar, only that he may continue to use his sorcerer class levels -2, as his effective wizard levels in regards to what level his 1 familiar is.
A normal familiar operates under the rules for arcane bond, unless otherwise pointed out.
So you think that a 7th level Tattooed Serpentine Sorcerer should have a familiar treated as if he was a 12th level Wizard? I mean, it's not super broken or anything since most Familiar abilities are based on the caster's stats, I suppose.
However, this would also allow a 5th level character to get an Imp familiar though Improved Familiar (at 5th level he would have an effective Wizard level of 8 to determine his familiar). Again, not insanely overpowering, but still not the right choice, IMHO.
I don't think we're going to come to a true consensus here, as I still think they should get two familiars.
But I'm not giving you 2 familiars based on that, as he is just gaining Arcane Bond a 2nd time, and that doesn't grant a 2nd familiar, only that he may continue to use his sorcerer class levels -2, as his effective wizard levels in regards to what level his 1 familiar is.A normal familiar operates under the rules for arcane bond, unless otherwise pointed out.
Where does it say that Serpentine gets Arcane Bond? It says gets a serpent familiar at sorc level -2.
Where in arcane bond does it say that you only get 1 familiar if granted by the same class?
Answer both of those conclusively and you end the discussion.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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But I'm not giving you 2 familiars based on that, as he is just gaining Arcane Bond a 2nd time, and that doesn't grant a 2nd familiar, only that he may continue to use his sorcerer class levels -2, as his effective wizard levels in regards to what level his 1 familiar is.A normal familiar operates under the rules for arcane bond, unless otherwise pointed out.
Where does it say that Serpentine gets Arcane Bond? It says gets a serpent familiar at sorc level -2.
Where in arcane bond does it say that you only get 1 familiar if granted by the same class?
Answer both of those conclusively and you end the discussion.
Agreed. This is the rules forum, so you have to go by what the rules say. Nowhere in the rules does it actually say "you can never have two familiars". If it said that, then the argument would be over.