Hi everybod! Just a quick warning: I'm Italian, I'm not able in english and this is my first message in the forum. I tryed to find a place where can I shortly present myself, like other forums, but I didn't find anything.
The question is long, the fulcrum is: "How can I cast spells on the sly?"
1A. I imagine that I need some particular feats to do this. Where can I find them? How do they work?
1B. Without these feats, can I use some skills to obtain the same resoult?
1C. Or, maybe, I need to combine skill checks and feats?
Moreover, I have some other questions about this topic:
2. I want to cast a spell on the sly. Furthermore I want that people near me believe that the person X (someone near me) has casted the spell, instead of me. Is it possible? How?
3. How can I hide the cast of some spells? For example, how can I hide the cast of "Ray of frost" (People can see my finger!!) or "Ghoul touch" (I need to touch you!!)?
4. Is there some complications if the spell require or not different components? There are spells without V and S components. But, principally, there are spells with F and M components. If these components are small I think no problem, but in the event of something big like a mirror?
5. Is there some complications if the spell casting time isn't "1 standard action"? I think that faster spells are favoured, while slower spells are disadvantaged.
I tried to find this topic in the core book, but I don't find anything. The same was for internet. If you have some references, please show me them!!
Thank you for the support.
1) Nope, you need feats for this. Silent spell will make casting your spell silent, but you still have to deal with the somatic components if it has any. The bard feat spellsong (From Ultimate Magic, I think) lets you do this. You need ranks in a Perform skill to pull it off, but they have to beat your Perform check roll to notice you're casting a spell.
2) I seem to recall something like this, but can't recall any specifics.
3) I don't think you can.
4) You have to manipulate such items, and use them as part of casting. If it's a material component, it's used up. So if the spell requires you to swallow a spider...well you gotta do that. Unless you have the feat Eschew Materials, from the core rulebook.
5) Not really. Full-round spells might last long enough that people will get suspicious.
Welcome to the boards, Alkirk.
You might look at the metamagic feats . (Hit the blue words for a link and scroll down til you get to them.)
Depending on your DM still spell and silent spell might make casting "stealthier". As Cheapy says, Eschew Materials might help too.
Concealment, physical or magical, is an obvious way to hide. Just don't stand out in the open. Some sort of programmed illusion might be able to deflect suspicion of spell casting onto someone else.
In general the game is set up for casting to be a high-profile action though.
IA. Silent Spell and Still Spell might be a start here.
IB. Bluff?
IC. ?
2. Bluff again, but I am not sure whether you need a feat as well to do that.
3. Spells that involve touching are pretty hard to hide. You touch somebody, and then something bad happens to them -- how can they not suspect that you just cast a spell on them?
4. If you are using Still Spell, you have eliminated the somatic component. The F or M component must be on your person when you cast, with the M component disappearing during the casting. It is highly unlikely that any observer will notice that.
5. The only spell I know of with a casting time less than a standard action is Feather Fall, which has to be faster so that it can be used as a sudden reaction to an unexpected fall. Spells with a casting time longer than a standard action are more vulnerable to being disrupted because the casting continues at least until the start of your next turn.
I created a custom feat called Spell Obfuscation which allows a caster to mix the somatic and verbal components into everyday language and gestures. So you can talk to someone, and using that feat, make normal conversation and gestures and cast the spell.
It added +1 to the level of the spell, and required a Bluff check by the caster, opposed by the Sense Motive of those around. Those that made the perception knew something was going on, but only those with Spellcraft could attempt to figure it out.
Would that work for you?
If you use the Ventriloquism spell (or Ninja trick), you can make your spell seem to come from someone else. Then, if it's a spell that requires no movement, the Bluff check to shift blame to that person becomes a lot easier.
There are a number of ways to hide spellcasting. And some spells are easier to hide then others - a visible ray still has to come from you, and hit the target. But anyway:
- Still Spell removes the somatic component (movement)
- Silent Spell removes the Verbal component (sound)
- Eschew Materials removes the material component (stuff)
- Spellsong disguises every part of casting (if you're a bard)
- Secret Signs hides the somatic component, but only if there isn't any verbal component
- Ventriloquism makes the sound come from elsewhere
5. Is there some complications if the spell casting time isn't "1 standard action"? I think that faster spells are favoured, while slower spells are disadvantaged.
Faster is always better. Most spells can't be cast faster than a Standard Action, with some rare exceptions. Casting a Spell that takes a whole round means you'll be busy the whole round: others can attack you while you cast, you can't attack them back and you can barely move. Casting a spell that takes even longer is something you would do when you aren't in a fight.
First, thank you very much! All these replies make me very happy, they have exceeded my best expectations!!
Sorry if I reply only now (in delay), I'm on holiday and I can use the PC only sometimes.
Now, my considerations to better understand the matter.
Generally, I understand that there aren't specific rules about this topic: good sense and DM are enough. This is my view.
To cast a spell on the sly, you need to use particular feats or to be in particular situations. In my personal opinion, bluff isn't enough.
0. Perfect for Bards, they can use Spellsong feat.
1. You cast spells on the sly when you cast spells without components.
S: You can use Still Spell.
V: You can use Silent Spell.
M/F: You can't cast on the sly if the components are cumbersome or big, like a mirror. The same if the components need particular procedures which are too evident. No problem if the components are on the sly (like inside a bag) or direcly on you (maybe a check to note that the component disappear if it was M). In middle cases, I opt for a bluff check. Eschew Materials is really usefoul.
2. Some spells are impossible to cast on the sly. For example: "ray of frost", "shout", "chill touch (even if you hold the charge, it'a a bit evident!) ", "magic circle against", "binding" - In these situations DM reign XD.
3. Ok for other situations like concealment.
If you want the situation in my precedent point 2, I think...
4. If person X is doing something like casting a spell*, you have to cast on the sly and - if you have success - simply make a bluff. In relation to X's features you can gain or not bonus/malus (is X a spellcaster? What is X doing?...etc.). If spellcasters identify the spell they can recognize if the cast was strange (e.g. X was still but cast a spell that usually require S components or maybe X was in movement but the spell dont' require S components; the same for something strange about M or F components) but nothing more (maybe X use Still Spell). Spells that aren't "castable" on the sly can't be use in this way.
*(This is what people that are deceive believe to see in X)
For only S components X need to be in movement. (But the bluff check, generally, is really more difficoult)
For only V, X need to casting a spell in the same moment or you need Ventriloquism or something like this. (But the bluff check, generally, is a bit more difficoult)
For V+S, all of two. (No malus on bluff check)
For M/F no problem.
5. If X is doing something like a normal conversation you can't try.
About casting time...
6. You can cast on the sly only spells with a casting time less or equal to a full-round. More than a full-round require a bigger concentration and people aren't stupid.
I created a custom feat called Spell Obfuscation which allows a caster to mix the somatic and verbal components into everyday language and gestures. So you can talk to someone, and using that feat, make normal conversation and gestures and cast the spell.
It added +1 to the level of the spell, and required a Bluff check by the caster, opposed by the Sense Motive of those around. Those that made the perception knew something was going on, but only those with Spellcraft could attempt to figure it out.
Would that work for you?
Yes, I like it! In my opinion, however, it can't be add to similar feats like Secret Signs (the combination is too powerfoul!)
Ok, I have finish. Sorry for the lenght (and the english)!
Where can I find the Rakshasa bloodline? Is it on PRD?
|
stuff
Ok here is some hypothetical "possibilities" for some of your scenarios.
1a. Silent Spell, Still Spell, both of those feats will help with spells that have no immediate 'visible' manifestation.
1b. Possibly Sleight of Hand, or Stealth, for non-somatic spells. Really depends on the spell, GM, and the type of game your playing in.
2 - the spell 'Ventriloquism' may help here, but it could be disbelieved like all similar illusion spells.
3 - ray of frost creates cold air and ice and hurls it at the target, that's going to be hard to hide that unless you blind someone, somehow. As for Ghoul Touch, you could 'try' to get a sneaky familiar, hide the casting of your spell and designate the familiar as the toucher and have him "sneak" and attack a target with Ghoul Touch, and then re-sneak away. Tricky though, but that's 1 idea.
4 - spells that have F and M means it has a focus or material components involved, a F is very hard to hide as that's usually a divine focus and you "present" that as part of casting the spell. As for the material components, you could take the feat called Eschew Materials and any component 1gp or less in value is not needed.
5 - None I can think of, besides common sense. I did pull off something akin to what your asking by using the spell feather fall combined with silent spells. I won some bar games by silently casting feather fall on a coin some NPCs flipped in the air. The goal was to pocket as much gold as I could in one flip, with the coin slowed down via the spell I made out like a bandit. It was not a wise move to do in the long run, lol, but stuff like what you are trying to do CAN be done if you look into Silent and Still spells, and then some really situational magic.
You're not going to get much mileage out of 'damage' spells for obvious reasons.
|
Secret Signs
Prerequisite: Int 13.Benefit: You gain a +4 bonus on Bluff checks made to pass secret messages. In addition, you are adept at hiding the somatic components of spellcasting. If you cast a spell that has only somatic components, an observer must make a Perception check opposed by your Sleight of Hand check to notice your spellcasting. Spellcraft checks made to identify any spell you cast that has somatic components take a –2 penalty.
So, either being a deaf oracle (to make all spells silent), figuring out how to make Silent Spell work for you, or simply only casting the few spells that don't have verbal components will make this work.
|
|
Secret Signs
Prerequisite: Int 13.Benefit: You gain a +4 bonus on Bluff checks made to pass secret messages. In addition, you are adept at hiding the somatic components of spellcasting. If you cast a spell that has only somatic components, an observer must make a Perception check opposed by your Sleight of Hand check to notice your spellcasting. Spellcraft checks made to identify any spell you cast that has somatic components take a –2 penalty.
So, either being a deaf oracle (to make all spells silent), figuring out how to make Silent Spell work for you, or simply only casting the few spells that don't have verbal components will make this work.
Oracles are sexy for this kind of build. Free Silent Spell metamagic is very handy.
3. Spells that involve touching are pretty hard to hide. You touch somebody, and then something bad happens to them -- how can they not suspect that you just cast a spell on them?
Depends on what happens and the context I suppose. Most real life pick pockets work exactly this way. Of course if in a fight you touch someone in the face and their face starts to melt thats going to be hard to hide. But a friendly pat on the back and suddenly that person can't hit very well? Might just be bad luck.
Thank you for the hints!
Depends on what happens and the context I suppose. Most real life pick pockets work exactly this way. Of course if in a fight you touch someone in the face and their face starts to melt thats going to be hard to hide. But a friendly pat on the back and suddenly that person can't hit very well? Might just be bad luck
Obviously right, but the mechanic? A sleight of hand check? And how can you hide the light that shine from your hand? Maybe a stealth check?
spells that have F and M means it has a focus or material components involved, a F is very hard to hide as that's usually a divine focus and you "present" that as part of casting the spell. As for the material components, you could take the feat called Eschew Materials and any component 1gp or less in value is not needed.
I have a doubt.
First, suppose a spell with F/FD components. I want to cast it. Do I need...1)To pick up in my hand F/FD compontents and clearly show them to all
OR
2)It's sufficient to have F/FD components in a pocket-bag or similar?
Second, the same question for M components?
If possible, for this reply, give me a PRD reference: it's easier for me.
"To cast a spell, you must be able to speak (if the spell has a verbal component), gesture (if it has a somatic component), and manipulate the material components or focus (if any)."First, suppose a spell with F/FD components. I want to cast it. Do I need...
1)To pick up in my hand F/FD compontents and clearly show them to all
OR
2)It's sufficient to have F/FD components in a pocket-bag or similar?
So you could have the Focus in your pocket, but you do need to have your hand on it. And you need to wave a hand about, if the spell has a Somatic component. You may combine the two, but then everybody could see the Focus or material.
Second, the same question for M components?
They work the same way. Some spells need very strange materials though, and it can be fun to actually act out using them.
Also: there's a trait, Power of Suggestion, that allows to to trick people into thinking you're holding something completely different. That could be useful.
|
|
There is a prestige class called the Dawnflower Dissident that will do this for you. The only problem is that the book this is in will be released on the 16th of this month so unless you are subscriber you have to wait to see if that is what you where looking to do. Basically the class lets you make some opposed skill checks in order to hide the fact that you are casting a spell.
The Sandman Bard's funny.
At 9th level, a sandman can use bardic performance to cast spells without obvious visual or audible components while retaining the spell’s normal effects. Observers must succeed at a Perception check opposed by a sandman’s Sleight of Hand check to notice that the sandman is the source of the spellcasting"
As a swift action, you may combine your casting time of a spell with a Perform check. Observers must make a Perception or Sense Motive check opposed by your Perform check to realize you are also casting a spell.
You're now forcing two checks on the audience to notice you're casting spells. If you fail your Perform check, your Sleight of Hands may still save the day.
It's a pity it won't stack with Secret Signs.
There is a prestige class called the Dawnflower Dissident that will do this for you. The only problem is that the book this is in will be released on the 16th of this month so unless you are subscriber you have to wait to see if that is what you where looking to do. Basically the class lets you make some opposed skill checks in order to hide the fact that you are casting a spell.
Really interesting!! What book is it?
You're now forcing two checks on the audience to notice you're casting spells. If you fail your Perform check, your Sleight of Hands may still save the day.
Cool!!
Dramatic Subtext: [...] The bard must use this performance for at least 2 rounds before casting a spell; otherwise he is automatically detected and the performance ends.
What does it mean? I dont' understand
Is this so that you can cast a spell so nobody knows who cast the spell or that nobody knows that a spell was cast in the first place?
The first. The second is more difficoult!!
Reach Spell.
Didn't see anyone yet mentioning that in relation to the touch spells.
Interesting...now I'm also thinking about Spectral hand!
|
There is a prestige class called the Dawnflower Dissident that will do this for you. The only problem is that the book this is in will be released on the 16th of this month so unless you are subscriber you have to wait to see if that is what you where looking to do. Basically the class lets you make some opposed skill checks in order to hide the fact that you are casting a spell.Really interesting!! What book is it?
Paths of Prestige
Dramatic Subtext: [...] The bard must use this performance for at least 2 rounds before casting a spell; otherwise he is automatically detected and the performance ends.What does it mean? I dont' understand
- Round 1: the Sandman starts this performance. He starts singing, or talking, or beating a drum.
- Round 2: the Sandman maintains this performance. Which means he can do anything he wants, except start a new performance. He doesn't need to keep banging the bongos if he doesn't want to.
- Round 3: the Sandman casts his spell. He makes his Sleight of Hand check, and those who see or hear him may make an opposed Perception check.
After that, the Sandman can either keep his performance up and keep casting spells "on the sly", or end the performance and go do something else.
Reach Spell.Interesting...now I'm also thinking about Spectral hand!
A Spectral Hand is visible though, and always hits from your direction. The Reach Spell feat is probably better for this.
Thank you VRMH, now the feat is clear (to me).
Path of Prestige will be avaible from 16 of this month.