I can shoot a bow or crossbow while wearing a buckler without penalty on the attack roll. That's clear.
But do I lose the AC bonus while doing so?
Yes.
The bow is a weapon, and you're using the buckler hand to use it, so you lose the AC bonus. Losing the AC bonus is not a penalty, so it still happens. (Penalty is defined as a negative modifier)
it says there is a -1 to atk roll for using the two handed weapon. i'm not sure how you can use it with no penalty.
but yes, if you use the weapon, you lose the AC bonus. however, enhancements like fortification or Determination still stay in effect.
Can you, RAW, use a buckler with fortified armor training while not gaining it's AC for shooting a bow or attacking with twohanded?
And if you have a broken buckler has it an AC of 1 or 0? I guess it's rounded down, but I'm not sure.
When you are using the bow, you get absolutely no benefit from the buckler. AC or other properties that function only while wielded.Can you, RAW, use a buckler with fortified armor training while not gaining it's AC for shooting a bow or attacking with twohanded?
And if you have a broken buckler has it an AC of 1 or 0? I guess it's rounded down, but I'm not sure.
It is no property of the shield I'm talking about but a feat that let's you give your shield the broken condition to prevent a critical.
EDIT: To be clear: The feat doesn't say that you have to be actively using the shield.
it says there is a -1 to atk roll for using the two handed weapon. i'm not sure how you can use it with no penalty.
Because it says "You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it."
Can you, RAW, use a buckler with fortified armor training while not gaining it's AC for shooting a bow or attacking with twohanded?
Looks like, by RAW, sure. Fortified Armor Training doesn't even say you have to be wielding the shield. I think it's clearly RAI that you're wearing it, but even then I would allow it with the bow, since you're still using the buckler, you're just not getting the AC bonus.
And if you have a broken buckler has it an AC of 1 or 0? I guess it's rounded down, but I'm not sure.
Broken: "If the item is a suit of armor or a shield, the bonus it grants to AC is halved, rounding down."
When you are using the bow, you get absolutely no benefit from the buckler. AC or other properties that function only while wielded.
Citation?
It says "if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn."
Something like Energy resistance has nothing to do with the AC bonus, so it would still apply.
That's a true munchkin interpretation.
Well, yeah. But you need to learn the rules so you know how to break them properly.
The citation is simple.
Then please provide it.
If you lose the armor bonus that an item gives, for example a +1 leather armor with light fortification being suppresed by a spell of mage armor, you lose all qualities gained by that item.
That sounds similar to the rules for Bracers of Armor. That applies only when using Bracers of Armor, and does not apply to everything else.
There's nothing in the rules saying that your +1 Wild Invulnerability Padded Armor stops functioning if you cast Mage Armor. The armor bonus does not stack, everything else does.
Just to make myself clear: I do not intend to use a buckler that way, I just want to understand what about it is RAW.
As you brought up the leather armor and mage armor. I know that the light fortification property would not work. But the feat reads as if you could give that leather armor the broken condition.
Comparing a buckler on your arm while doing something else with that arm to some equipment stowed away in your backpack sounds as you lacking real arguments.
EDIT: I wanted to formulate this more politely but I lacked the right words (english not being my native language)
As you brought up the leather armor and mage armor. I know that the light fortification property would not work.
Why wouldn't it? Your armor does not stop working, it's just the armor bonus that doesn't stack.
But the feat reads as if you could give that leather armor the broken condition.
Yes. It's reasonable to assume you must be wearing it, but it doesn't matter if you're getting a better AC bonus from something else.
You could be wearing two shields, for example a buckler and a tower shield, and let the buckler get broken while still gaining the AC bonus from the tower. The shield AC bonuses don't stack, but you don't need them to.
(And no, you can't wear six copies of padded leather, each suit of armor takes up the Armor slot)
As you brought up the leather armor and mage armor. I know that the light fortification property would not work.Why wouldn't it? Your armor does not stop working, it's just the armor bonus that doesn't stack.
I can't quote it right now but I remember a rules passage or a FAQ or something other official that stated that you lose all the properties of the armor when it's AC bonus doesn't apply. Most likely exactly to prevent stacking multiple armorse or armor with special abilities and bracers of armor.
When you're wearing both of these items, the bracers are treated as if they don't exist at all.
Right, because the bracers of armor have a specific rule stating that happens.
"Bracers of armor and ordinary armor do not stack. If a creature receives a larger armor bonus from another source, the bracers of armor cease functioning and do not grant their armor bonus or their armor special abilities. If the bracers of armor grant a larger armor bonus, the other source of armor ceases functioning."
There are two cases there:
A) An armor bonus larger than bracers of armor
and
B) an armor bonus less than bracers of armor
Neither of those two cases apply when there are no bracers of armor.
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Can you, RAW, use a buckler with fortified armor training while not gaining it's AC for shooting a bow or attacking with twohanded?
And if you have a broken buckler has it an AC of 1 or 0? I guess it's rounded down, but I'm not sure.
Always remember that rounding is done to hurt the player. If you get hit with a spell and its a .5 damage then you round up, but if you cast the spell and its .5 to the creature you round down. Whatever provides the most detriment to the player.
Always remember that rounding is done to hurt the player. If you get hit with a spell and its a .5 damage then you round up, but if you cast the spell and its .5 to the creature you round down. Whatever provides the most detriment to the player.
Rounding: "Occasionally the rules ask you to round a result or value. Unless otherwise stated, always round down. For example, if you are asked to take half of 7, the result would be 3."
Unless that was a joke, in which case, whoosh.
it says there is a -1 to Atk roll for using the two handed weapon. I'm not sure how you can use it with no penalty.Because it says "You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it."
Except where your citing that is the description for the buckler in the first sentence of what it says for buckler. And, it is the description becasue if you look in the book, or even on pfsrd, or the SRD, you see that the first sentence for every armor type hasa descriotion as the first line or two. Same thing for the buckler. But the next sentence contradicts the 'no penalty....", ...
Buckler
This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it.
You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler's Armor Class bonus until your next turn. You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler's Armor Class bonus until your next turn. You can't make a shield bash with a buckler.
Italics bold: part you quoted
Bold: The sentence that negates the description (sentence you quote) gives -1 to Atk for using a weapon in buckler hand.
Big part bold: a bow is a 2 handed weapon using the off hand to help wield it.
IF the bow was not in both hands, such as when walking in the forest, then the buckler will apply its AC bonus. The moment the archer lifts his bow to sight in on his target, he gets no AC bonus, and now takes a -1 to Atk rolls, b/c the buckler arm is being used to help hold the weapon for use.
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Always remember that rounding is done to hurt the player. If you get hit with a spell and its a .5 damage then you round up, but if you cast the spell and its .5 to the creature you round down. Whatever provides the most detriment to the player.Rounding: "Occasionally the rules ask you to round a result or value. Unless otherwise stated, always round down. For example, if you are asked to take half of 7, the result would be 3."
Unless that was a joke, in which case, whoosh.
Sorry should I have finished with /endsarcasm?
=b
Except where your citing that is the description for the buckler in the first sentence of what it says for buckler.
It's the second sentence.
The first sentence, which is indeed fluff, says "This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm."
The second sentence, which is a rule, says "You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it."
The sentence that negates the description (sentence you quote) gives -1 to Atk for using a weapon in buckler hand.
General rule: Using your shield arm to wield a weapon imparts a -1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so.
Specific rule: You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty.
IF the bow was not in both hands, such as when walking in the forest, then the buckler will apply its AC bonus. The moment the archer lifts his bow to sight in on his target, he gets no AC bonus, and now takes a -1 to Atk rolls, b/c the buckler arm is being used to help hold the weapon for use.
You're confusing the two issues.
Issue 1: The penalty
Penalty: "Penalties are numerical values that are subtracted from a check or statistical score."
The -1 to attack rolls is a penalty. This does not apply to using a bow or crossbow, because you can use a bow or crossbow without penalty.
Issue 2: The AC bonus
"In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn."
It's assumed that this doesn't actually mean "off hand" but rather means "hand that is carrying the buckler" which means if you do use both hands to fire a bow or crossbow (still without penalty) then you lose the buckler's AC bonus.
The lack of a bonus is not the same as a penalty.
Oooooooo...now blow their minds with the fact that everyone can use a masterwork buckler without a non-proficient negative! :)
OK, so so the specific of the no penalty for bows, overrides the general rule of -1 Atk penalty for 2 hands. I still get my AC bonus though when not using the bow, like walking through the dungeon, it's only when I use my bow I lose it correct?
What about fortification enhancement and such? I assume I don't lose those, since that is not an AC bonus.
Oooooooo...now blow their minds with the fact that everyone can use a masterwork buckler without a non-proficient negative! :)Or Darkwood/Mithril.
=b
???? don't understand. Non-proficient negative?
If you're not using the shield (ie , not getting the ac bonus) you loose the goodies that go along with it, like fortification.
OK, so so the specific of the no penalty for bows, overrides the general rule of -1 Atk penalty for 2 hands. I still get my AC bonus though when not using the bow, like walking through the dungeon, it's only when I use my bow I lose it correct?
Any time you use the bow (or use your buckler hand to wield a weapon) you lose the AC bonus until the start of your next turn.
What about fortification enhancement and such? I assume I don't lose those, since that is not an AC bonus.
People are claiming you lose more than the AC bonus, but I haven't seen any rules justification for that.
???? don't understand. Non-proficient negative?
A character who wears armor and/or uses a shield with which he is not proficient takes the armor's (and/or shield's) armor check penalty on attack rolls as well as on all Dexterity- and Strength-based ability and skill checks.
Since a masterwork buckler has an Armor Check Penalty of 0, you take a -0 penalty to those rolls and checks.
???? don't understand. Non-proficient negative?
Anytime you attack while using armor and/or a shield you are not proficient with, the Armor Check Penalty (ACP) applies to your attack rolls. A buckler has a -1 ACP, so those that are not proficient with it take a -1 on their attack rolls even if they don't use the buckler hand to attack with (if they do use that hand, they take a -2 penalty).
Now a masterwork armor or shield reduces the ACP by 1. Which means a masterwork buckler would have an ACP of 0. So anyone can use a masterwork buckler without taking this additional -1 penalty.
ok, got it. Thanks Grick, BigNorsewolf (fenrir), Pres man for the answers.
now I'm going to re-equip my archer's buckler, and add on a few enh. to it, now that I wont be taking a -1 to Atk. (seems like the only good enh. are the +'s to enh. for a shield/buckler... all others, like light fortification/determination/creeping seem better on actual armor).
Now, I have to figure out the benefits of the quickdraw shield vs. buckler. So far, it looks like the buckler is better I think.
I recommend Bucklers to any archer, crossbowman or gunners. I also reccomend Mithral bucklers to wizards (no arcane failure %).
For archers/crossbowmen/gunners bucklers are a great way to increase your AC while flat footed or on total defense. The buckler is even useful (for the same reasons) to 2handed fighters if you are willing to eat the -1attack penalty.
- Gauss