Just to quickly clarify, this discussion is not about classes who gain a mount that gains power over levels (such as a cavalier/paladin), this discussion is about the rest of group who are stuck riding a light/heavy horse, pony, dog, etc.
I have had approximately 4 mounts get melted in a couple different campaigns. It doesn't happen often, but often enough where I have to think, "gee, wouldn't it be nice if my mount just had 20 more HP so it can survive a fireball?"
This got me to brainstorming solutions.
Simply, instead of only having a heavy horse with 2 HD available, have one at 3, 4 and 5 also available.
Expand on the Handle Animal skill to allow it to "train" a mount. Exactly how this system works would need to be fleshed out.
A) Have mounts gain a fraction of experience from combat. However, in order to gain a 'level'/HD, you need to make a Handle Animal check to help them realize their potential. Hell, a 2hd creature just survived while participating in a battle with PC's that might be level 14, it should get something for living besides getting to live!
B) Simply have a Handle Animal DC chart for advancing an animal in levels. Set how much time each 'level' needs to be accomplished. Think of this as a system similar to crafting--you have a DC, it takes a certain amount of time, you make a check at the end.
I've seen threads where animating an iron horse as a construct has been suggested, but it is rather expensive, and while it has a certain amount of RP value, I feel that there should be a mundane way to keep your mount from ker-splatting in one hit (besides barding and praying that the enemy misses).
I'm honestly not sure how to read the Monster Advancement chart correctly, but Blueluck posted some variants in this thread.
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Handle animal already has the ability to train a mount
Instead of trying to bring your horse up to level 15, find a fantasitical creature and raise it to be your mount. I don't think you should be able to buy them. Quest for them.
You want a hippogriff? Seek out an Aerie and climb to get an egg.
You want a dragonne? Listen to rumors and tales to find the lair of one and capture a youngling.
Griffon? Axebeak?
Go forth and conquer a companion/mount. it's the one drawback to having a mount for your class. My Paladin just liberated and tamed a Bulette that has already been trained as a mount but he has a freaking magic horse...
Handle animal already has the ability to train a mount
Handle Animal allows you to train a mount for purposes, such as combat training, or adding tricks. It does not allow you to add HD.
Instead of trying to bring your horse up to level 15, find a fantasitical creature and raise it to be your mount. I don't think you should be able to buy them. Quest for them.
You want a hippogriff? Seek out an Aerie and climb to get an egg.
You want a dragonne? Listen to rumors and tales to find the lair of one and capture a youngling.
Griffon? Axebeak?
I never said anything about bringing the mount to level 15, I suggested being able to add only a couple HD to the mount so it doesn't die instantly. There's absolutely no reason why a tougher horse shouldn't exist, and why you should need to go get some rare/exotic mount for higher survivability.
Go forth and conquer a companion/mount. it's the one drawback to having a mount for your class. My Paladin just liberated and tamed a Bulette that has already been trained as a mount but he has a freaking magic horse...
I very clearly stated that this post was not about classes that gain a mount.
Handle Animal allows you to train a mount for purposes, such as combat training, or adding tricks. It does not allow you to add HD.
If you keep reading you will see that I was disagreeing that train mount should add HD and instead you could opt to do the option I mentioned
I never said anything about bringing the mount to level 15, I suggested being able to add only a couple HD to the mount so it doesn't die instantly. There's absolutely no reason why a tougher horse shouldn't exist, and why you should need to go get some rare/exotic mount for higher survivability.
A horse is a horse unless it's an animal companion. There is no leveling capability for animals because they don't get much better than a heavy horse. No matter what you do to it, it just won't get any more survivable. (excepting barding of course) If anyone can take any animal and improve it, what is the benefit of an animal companion?
I very clearly stated that this post was not about classes that gain a mount.
Which is why I very clearly said go forth and conquer a better mount. I was saying that it's almost a drawback to be given a mount as a class feature because you can't take advantage of some of the better monsters that could be "Handle Animal'd" into a mount.
Which is why I very clearly said go forth and conquer a better mount. I was saying that it's almost a drawback to be given a mount as a class feature because you can't take advantage of some of the better monsters that could be "Handle Animal'd" into a mount.
I very clearly stated that this post was not about classes that gain a mount.
Let's say this isn't an option, or not one you're willing to entertain. You're very personally attached to this particular creature, it's been with you through thick and thin, you've been through countless adventures together. To just toss it aside and corral something stronger, more exotic, and tougher? Nay I say, to discard such a loyal companion.
I recently asked this over in the advice forum. The recommendation I got was either "wait until the companion book comes out in December, it'll give options for classes that don't get them" and "take Leadership - you can have an animal cohort, and give it levels in an appropriate (and reasonable) class". I went with the latter, and my GM okay'd it, so in a few levels my Witch will be riding a Siberian Husky Barbarian. =) Up to your GM if that flies or not though, I imagine most would regulate them to taking levels in Warrior if anything.
You certainly have the option to take your trusted companion into combat for as long as you like. It may be detrimental to your trusted companion.
As you mentioned: As alternative, you could convince your GM to allow your mount as your Cohort if you take Leadership?
That way it levels up.
The reason that improvable animal companions are a class feature and not a skill option is that they can greatly enhance your damage output per round as they get better and better. I'd guess 1/4-1/2 of my Paladins damage per combat is from the multiple attacks his Mount gets.
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You certainly have the option to take your trusted companion into combat for as long as you like. It may be detrimental to your trusted companion.
As you mentioned: As alternative, you could convince your GM to allow your mount as your Cohort if you take Leadership?
That way it levels up.The reason that improvable animal companions are a class feature and not a skill option is that they can greatly enhance your damage output per round as they get better and better. I'd guess 1/4-1/2 of my Paladins damage per combat is from the multiple attacks his Mount gets.
Not to mention how devastating mounted archers and Mounted Skirmishers can be. There needs to be some expenditure of resource for that benefit.
You certainly have the option to take your trusted companion into combat for as long as you like. It may be detrimental to your trusted companion.
Hence the thread requesting suggestions for making it tougher =D Maybe it's just me but "get a different, stronger mount" was kind of an obvious answer and the fact he didn't ask for that suggested he'd already discarded that idea ;) Just my 2cp.
Two suitable things for mounts might be a megaloceros or hippo wihch are somewhat tougher.
If you keep reading you will see that I was disagreeing that train mount should add HD and instead you could opt to do the option I mentioned
I read the rest of your post just fine... However the first sentence from your original response seemed to imply that this functionality already existed, which it does not.
A horse is a horse unless it's an animal companion. There is no leveling capability for animals because they don't get much better than a heavy horse. No matter what you do to it, it just won't get any more survivable. (excepting barding of course) If anyone can take any animal and improve it, what is the benefit of an animal companion?
A horse that has survived many battles is tougher and more formidable than a freshly-trained horse. If there was no difference between animals, why would "ye olde" knights care which mount they rode into battle?
Which is why I very clearly said go forth and conquer a better mount. I was saying that it's almost a drawback to be given a mount as a class feature because you can't take advantage of some of the better monsters that could be "Handle Animal'd" into a mount.
I understand your position, but mine is that you shouldn't necessarily have to ditch your mount, or switch to some exotic animal. Why shouldn't your horse toughen up a little bit over time? I'm not saying to advance it the same way you'd advance an animal companion, I'm saying that maybe develop a system that allows you to advance the mount's hd by 1 every 4 or 5 PC levels or so.
Mounts can level after combat every 4 levels.
Handle Animal DC = 10+{# of HD over base HD squared}
At PC Level 8, make a DC11 Handle Animal check to increase the mount's HD by 1. At level 12 you can make a DC14 check to increase by another HD. At level 16 a DC19 check will yield a third HD. At level 20 a DC26 check will yield a fourth HD.
Please note the advancement bonuses. If you still truly feel that this is on-par with an animal companion, I'm not sure what else to say.
HD2->HD3: +12 HP, +1 BAB, +1 Natural Armor
HD3->HD4: +9 HP
HD4->HD5: +12 HP, +2 BAB, +2 Natural Armor
A horse that has survived many battles DOESN'T get tougher. It got lucky.
That's the point. YOU can help your animal survive by taking mounted combat and other feats that allow you to protect the animal.
this is your best bet at helping it survive:
Mounted Combat (Combat)
Prerequisite: Ride 1 rank.
Benefit: Once per round when your mount is hit in combat, you may attempt a Ride check (as an immediate action) to negate the hit. The hit is negated if your Ride check result is greater than the opponent's attack roll.
Followed by the feats: Mounted Shield, Bodyguardand In Harm's way.
So there are plenty of ways you CAN keep your mount alive and healthy even into the higher levels already in place.
The reason that 'ye old' knights rode the same animal is that they probably could not afford to run more than one at a time since they have no skills except to carry a knight into combat. Horses cost a prodigious amount to maintain. Not to mention time to train etc etc...
Your suggestion maybe not on par with an animal companion but if not Feat worthy, then trait worthy?
A horse that has survived many battles DOESN'T get tougher. It got lucky.
I think this point is the crux of the differing mindsets here - the basis of your argument, one we disagree with - and unlikely to be swayed one way or the other.
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A horse that has survived many battles DOESN'T get tougher. It got lucky.
That's the point. YOU can help your animal survive by taking mounted combat and other feats that allow you to protect the animal.So there are plenty of ways you CAN keep your mount alive and healthy even into the higher levels already in place.
Your suggestion maybe not on par with an animal companion but if not Feat worthy, then trait worthy?
OK, I understand that you are adamantly against this idea in its entirety. I understand that you feel that mounts should only advance if part of a class feature, and that those without the class feature should use an "exotic" mount if they want a less flimsy mount. I understand that you are making these statements based on the RAW.
That said, the original thread question wasn't "I'm looking for a way to do this by RAW", nor was it a suggestion of "I think this should be core rules". This thread was posted in the Homebrew/House Rules section. I'm not trying to sound rude or dismissive, but please limit your responses to input that will actually assist with this idea, be it positive or constructive criticism or balancing information.
Your suggestion maybe not on par with an animal companion but if not Feat worthy, then trait worthy?
The suggestion already would require investing skill points into Handle Animal. If DC's need to be adjusted to make the skill point investment more important then that is something to consider, but I don't feel that this should be a feat, trait, boon, or class skill.
Moving on, the system I'm suggesting doesn't automatically make mounts level.
* It requires that the mount is in combat and survives
* It requires that the owner of the mount makes a Handle Animal check to assist the mount in its growth
I'm working on trying to determine an XP system to use for the mounts. I don't want to just base this off of the PC's level, I want the system to actually consider that the mount only gains experience by being in combat. You might get to level 20 and your heavy horse only sees combat once, so in that situation it has no right to level with that experience. However, if you're level 8 and your mount is in combat with you 75% of the time, I'd say that it's gained some experience, dodged or taken some blows to toughen up against, and learned (even at low Int) a trick or two to adapt. Hence, an HD increase.
Take Signature Mount. Or Wild Cohort if 3.5 is allowed.
Signature Mount is an interesting feat, thank you for posting that. I think it may be a little more powerful than what I'm looking to do, though (as the signature mount gains the animal companion bonuses). However, it is an interesting step-up to consider.
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A horse that has survived many battles DOESN'T get tougher. It got lucky.
It sounds to me like BltzKrg242's argument is based on RAW and...
If there was no difference between animals, why would "ye olde" knights care which mount they rode into battle?
...AerynTahlro's argument is based on real life (again, it sounds like to me).
Since this is the homebrew section I agree with AerynTahlro, a horse should gain experience for battles. (In real life a horse that has been through battles is much more "trustworthy" that one that has not been. Translating the word "trustworthy" into a gaming mechanic certainly could be HD/levels.)Mounts can level after combat every 4 levels.
Handle Animal DC = 10+{# of HD over base HD squared}
At PC Level 8, make a DC11 Handle Animal check to increase the mount's HD by 1. At level 12 you can make a DC14 check to increase by another HD. At level 16 a DC19 check will yield a third HD. At level 20 a DC26 check will yield a fourth HD.
This sounds very reasonable to me.
A mount should be able to become a trusted companion that can survive a fireball. Thanks for posting there is good info here.
OK, put some more thought into it... here's what I came up with:
* As of right now (for balancing reasons), I am only considering standard mounts (horses/dogs) to be part of this system.
Regular mounts were the whole reason for this system, I'm not interested in balancing it against exotic mounts right now.
* Only combat-trained mounts can gain experience.
The idea here is that a non-combat trained mount is too busy trying not to bolt (as per the rider's Ride checks) to gain any experience
* When they participate in battle, mounts gain experience points equal to 1/2 that which the PC's gain.
I'm not married to the 1/2 xp gain, I just chose to make it 1/2 to try to control experience progression... and considered that these are creatures of animal intelligence, so experience would likely gain slower (yes, I'm saying that intelligence plays into gaining experience)
* The base mount in the bestiary (HD2) counts as a level 1 PC for the purposes of determining experience. HD3 = level 2, HD4 = level 3, etc. etc.
Starting the mounts as level 1 on the chart with the idea that they won't see combat as often as PC's do, so this will start the needed experience to 'advance' at a lower number
* As a mount survives in battles, it gains experience points. For every 4 ranks that a PC places into Handle Animal, that PC is allowed to attempt to "advance" their mount.
Added the rank investment requirement to force PC's to consciously make the decision that they'll want to improve on their mount. It also controls how often advancement can occur
* In order to properly ride a mount that has been advanced, the rider must have a number of ranks in Handle Animal equal to the # of HD over 2 multiplied by 4.
This prevents players from advancing another player's mount, and also prevents a group from passing around a headband of vast int to temporarily get ranks in handle animal.
* An advancement check is a DC 10+(# of HD over the base squared) Handle Animal check.
As of right now, you can easily Take10 (provided you don't have Charisma too far under 10) to meet all but the last of these DC's. This seems about right and is about on par with how Spellcraft checks for magic items work.
* To advance a mount, refer to the standard character advancement chart. If the mount's current XP is equal to or greater than the XP required for next level and the PC meets the required Handle Animal ranks then the PC can make a Handle Animal check to advance the mount.
-HD2->HD3 (4 Ranks, DC11) yields: +10HP (Plus con mod), +1 BAB, +1 Natural Armor
-HD3->HD4 (8 Ranks, DC14) yields: +10HP (Plus con mod), +1 BAB, +1 Natural Armor
-HD4->HD5 (12 Ranks, DC19) yields: +15HP (Plus con mod), +1 BAB, +1 Natural Armor
-HD5->HD6 (16 Ranks, DC25) yields: +15HP (Plus con mod), +1 BAB, +1 Natural Armor
-HD6->HD7 (20 Ranks, DC36) yields: +15HP (Plus con mod), +1 BAB, +1 Natural Armor
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Personally I would no go this route in a home game as it strikes me as a means to keep the great feat progression of a fighter while gaining one of the benefits of a paladin/druid/ranger/cavalier/etc.
That said, if you are willing in your home game, then go for it. I would make one suggestion based off this part of your concept:
-HD2->HD3 (4 Ranks, DC11) yields: +10HP (Plus con mod), +1 BAB, +1 Natural Armor
-HD3->HD4 (8 Ranks, DC14) yields: +10HP (Plus con mod), +1 BAB, +1 Natural Armor
-HD4->HD5 (12 Ranks, DC19) yields: +15HP (Plus con mod), +1 BAB, +1 Natural Armor
-HD5->HD6 (16 Ranks, DC25) yields: +15HP (Plus con mod), +1 BAB, +1 Natural Armor
-HD6->HD7 (20 Ranks, DC36) yields: +15HP (Plus con mod), +1 BAB, +1 Natural Armor
Drop the Natural Armor modification and replace it with a dodge bonus. A natural armor bonus would infer the animal's hide is becoming tougher (which I suppose could be the case if it was heavily scarred) whereas a dodge bonus would infer it has become more adept at recognizing aspects of combat and how to best avoid them.
Additionally, Dodge bonuses stack whereas NA bonuses do not. ;)
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Personally I would no go this route in a home game as it strikes me as a means to keep the great feat progression of a fighter while gaining one of the benefits of a paladin/druid/ranger/cavalier/etc.
Imho fighter are slightly under powered anyway. :)
(I hope that doesn't start any off topic bickering.)Drop the Natural Armor modification and replace it with a dodge bonus. A natural armor bonus would infer the animal's hide is becoming tougher (which I suppose could be the case if it was heavily scarred) whereas a dodge bonus would infer it has become more adept at recognizing aspects of combat and how to best avoid them.
Additionally, Dodge bonuses stack whereas NA bonuses do not. ;)
+1 This is good advice.
...stuff...
-HD2->HD3 (4 Ranks, DC11) yields: +10HP (Plus con mod), +1 BAB, +1 Natural Armor
-HD3->HD4 (8 Ranks, DC14) yields: +10HP (Plus con mod), +1 BAB, +1 Natural Armor
-HD4->HD5 (12 Ranks, DC19) yields: +15HP (Plus con mod), +1 BAB, +1 Natural Armor
-HD5->HD6 (16 Ranks, DC25) yields: +15HP (Plus con mod), +1 BAB, +1 Natural Armor
-HD6->HD7 (20 Ranks, DC36) yields: +15HP (Plus con mod), +1 BAB, +1 Natural Armor
Why +10hp and +15hp, why not 1d8 + CON mod or something?
Everything else is really good, AerynTahlro, thanks for posting it.
Personally I would no go this route in a home game as it strikes me as a means to keep the great feat progression of a fighter while gaining one of the benefits of a paladin/druid/ranger/cavalier/etc.
I don't see it as gaining the benefit of the paladin/druid/ranger/cavalier.
Animal Companion
4 HD, +3 BAB, 4 skills, 2 feats, +2 natural armor, +1 str/dex bonus, 2 bonus tricks, link, share spells, evasion, ability score increase, 4/4/1 saves
"Advanced" mount
3 HD, +1 BAB, +1 natural armor, base saves, base skills, base feats
LEVEL 8
Animal Companion
7 HD, +5 BAB, 7 skills, 4 feats, +4 natural armor, +2 str/dex bonus, 3 bonus tricks, link, share spells, evasion, ability score increase, devotion, 5/5/2 saves
"Advanced" mount
4 HD, +2 BAB, +2 natural armor, base saves, base skills, base feats
LEVEL 12
Animal Companion
10 HD, +7 BAB, 10 skills, 5 feats, +8 natural armor, +4 str/dex bonus, 5 bonus tricks, link, share spells, evasion, ability score increase x2, devotion, multiattack, 7/7/3 saves
"Advanced" mount
5 HD, +3 BAB, +3 natural armor, base saves, base skills, base feats
LEVEL 16
Animal Companion
13 HD, +9 BAB, 13 skills, 7 feats, +10 natural armor, +5 str/dex bonus, 6 bonus tricks, link, share spells, evasion, ability score increase x3, devotion, multiattack, improved evasion, 8/8/4 saves
"Advanced" Mount
6 HD, +4 BAB, +3 natural armor, base saves, base skills, base feats
Drop the Natural Armor modification and replace it with a dodge bonus. A natural armor bonus would infer the animal's hide is becoming tougher (which I suppose could be the case if it was heavily scarred) whereas a dodge bonus would infer it has become more adept at recognizing aspects of combat and how to best avoid them.Additionally, Dodge bonuses stack whereas NA bonuses do not. ;)
The natural armor mod is how much armor bonus the base natural armor receives. This works exactly the same way as an animal companion where it's bonus natural armor that's added on to the base natural armor. Perhaps alternating the bonuses would be an interesting idea though... the mount is getting tougher and learning what/when to dodge.
OK since we are in homebrew...
How about instead of natural armor bonuses, the mount gets pregressively better armor feats?
As is, a war horse that takes barding takes a hit on attacks. so maybe every bracket that you have armor increase it gets the next better armor feat? (Light, med, heavy)?
OK since we are in homebrew...
How about instead of natural armor bonuses, the mount gets pregressively better armor feats?
As is, a war horse that takes barding takes a hit on attacks. so maybe every bracket that you have armor increase it gets the next better armor feat? (Light, med, heavy)?
That's an interesting option and logically makes sense... I'll have to play around with factoring an idea like that in.
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That's an interesting option and logically makes sense... I'll have to play around with factoring an idea like that in.OK since we are in homebrew...
How about instead of natural armor bonuses, the mount gets pregressively better armor feats?
As is, a war horse that takes barding takes a hit on attacks. so maybe every bracket that you have armor increase it gets the next better armor feat? (Light, med, heavy)?
Give combat trained mounts the ability to learn Armor Training like a fighter, with a bonus armor feat factored into your progression. That might be a cool mechanic separate and unique from animal companions that ties into the idea of your mount gaining experience.
This worked really well when I ran a three man group and allowed them to have their mounts gain 1 level of fighter (with the stipulation that weapon training was limited to natural attacks and certain limitations to skills) for every 3 levels they gained.
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And while it doesn't actually ADD to BAB you also can wear better armor without the attack penalties so it's kinda like a backhand BAB bonus?
One other thing to note, instead of gaining HP based off it's HD for each HD increase, you're effectively giving it the equivalent of the average (rounded down) of a d20 or d30 HD. What is the basis for the +10/+15 HP per increase instead of a normal increase?
I was originally trying to use the Monster Advancement for most of the advancement, but adjusted it a little bit.
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One other thing to note, instead of gaining HP based off it's HD for each HD increase, you're effectively giving it the equivalent of the average (rounded down) of a d20 or d30 HD. What is the basis for the +10/+15 HP per increase instead of a normal increase?I was originally trying to use the Monster Advancement for most of the advancement, but adjusted it a little bit.
Yeah, but these are not monsters, per se. For a Heavy Horse, with the Con bonus, and the average HP/HD, you would be looking at +10 HP/HD for each increase (i.e. - 3d8+15, 4d8+20, etc) ... a Light horse would be looking at +8 HP/HD (i.e. - 3d8+9, 4d8+12, etc.). Not quite as large a jump per HD boost, but still enough to increase it's survivability.
The full BAB makes sense though, as they are being trained for combat.
For the natural armor, since you were basing the original numbers off of the Monster Advancement rules, you would have a net 0 increase in NA as there was no increase in size of the animal, which would be another reason to switch it over to a Dodge bonus (not to mention that Dodge also gets calculated into Touch AC which also increases survivability).
Also, instead of tracking XP for the mount, you could have the check be made once per 3 character levels for a max 8HD mount (or once per 2 character levels ... would max out at an 11hd mount). It cuts down on the bookkeeping and simplifies the process. Not as quick an advancement as an animal companion which follows a 1/2/1/1/2/1/1/2, etc pattern for advancement.
Of course, if you're going for any kind of historical accuracy, you'd leave the mounts just the way they are.
It was not uncommon for a medieval knight to lose several mounts during a battle. In fact, if you read accounts from that time, you get the impression that continuing the fight despite having a horse cut out from beneath him was an expected part of a knight's experience on the battlefield.
Of course, if you're going for any kind of historical accuracy, you'd leave the mounts just the way they are.
It was not uncommon for a medieval knight to lose several mounts during a battle. In fact, if you read accounts from that time, you get the impression that continuing the fight despite having a horse cut out from beneath him was an expected part of a knight's experience on the battlefield.
Right, but there you're dealing with a knight with an AC of 19 and 10 hitpoints vs a horse with an ac of 10 and 15 hitpoints. Hitting the mount becomes viable, but not necessarily a no brainer.
D&D characters gain hit points but normal mounts dont: you're looking at 60 hitpoints and an ac of 25 vs a horse that still has 15 hitpoints... of COURSE you're going to hit the horse.
Thats not even counting area of effect spells that someone will eventually lob at the party. At 10th level your horse a BBQ to the first fireball spell to come along whether it makes its save or not.
I had a mount once, hobgoblin archers shot the sh*t out of it.
I actually like that regular horses are just that - Regular. They will die if hit with a fireball. The big bonus of picking a class with an animal companion is getting a mount that WILL survive. If you really want your horse to live through combat, take the feats suggested earlier and protect it yourself. Or hand it a truck load of magical items to make it better. I have seen a horse that transfered all of the damage it took to its rider, but that was a high CON fighter that just pounded potions of healing every couple of rounds.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I liked the original idea presented under option 1. The rules are even presented on how to do so under Monster Advancement, so it is RAW. I would allow +1 HD at triple the cost due to superior breeding.
Or you could add +1 HD and make the creature middle aged. +2 HD for old and +3 HD for venerable.
Middle Age = 10 years old
Old Age = 18 years old
Venerable Age = 23 years old
Max Age = 23 + 2d6 years
You could take a look at the feat Trick Rider. Allows you to make two ride checks per round instead of one.
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I liked the original idea presented under option 1. The rules are even presented on how to do so under Monster Advancement, so it is RAW. I would allow +1 HD at triple the cost due to superior breeding.
Or you could add +1 HD and make the creature middle aged. +2 HD for old and +3 HD for venerable.
Middle Age = 10 years old
Old Age = 18 years old
Venerable Age = 23 years old
Max Age = 23 + 2d6 years
Not sure I can see a fighter clad in full plate riding into battle on a venerable horse ...
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As it happens, there's an affordable book that addresses your exact problem:
The Very Last Book About Mounted Combat
Lots of options for classes without animal companions - including templates for "Thoroughbred" mounts for high level characters.
Taking another pass at this... I factored in the input that I've received thus-far.
* The higher HD mounts from my original post can easily exist by RAW, while the Advancement via Handle Animal would be house-rule only.
* I eliminated the mount XP to simplify book-keeping. While the original idea was that mounts gain experience through surviving combat, the new augmented idea is that you gain knowledge on how to train your mount to better survive combat.
* Stopped using the Monster Advancement chart as a direct guideline
* Added in training time requirement
* Adjusted the 'bonus' perks, factored in how to handle higher HD mounts with them.
Handle Animal
In addition to the current Handle Animal rules, you may also use Handle Animal to improve on your mount's capabilities.
* These expanded rules only apply to: light/heavy horses, riding dogs, & ponies
* Only combat-trained mounts can be advanced
* For every 4 ranks that a PC places into Handle Animal, that PC is allowed to attempt to "advance" their mount.
* In order to properly ride a mount that has been advanced, the rider must have a number of ranks in Handle Animal equal to the # of HD over 2 multiplied by 4.
* You must spend 1 week (assuming a 7 day week) for 8 hours per day training your mount to make the check.
* An advancement check is a DC 10+(# of HD over the base squared) Handle Animal check.
* Mounts advanced in this way do not change in size category and you cannot advance an animal companion or bonded mount using these rules
* If your mount is already of a higher HD, you cannot gain the HD/BAB increases from lower HD's, but you can gain the bonus abilities.
# Advancement Chart #
HD2 to HD3 --> Requires 4 ranks in Handle Animal and a DC11 Handle Animal check
HD3 to HD4 --> Requires 8 ranks in Handle Animal and a DC14 Handle Animal check
HD4 to HD5 --> Requires 12 ranks in Handle Animal and a DC19 Handle Animal check
HD5 to HD6 --> Requires 16 ranks in Handle Animal and a DC25 Handle Animal check
HD6 to HD7 --> Requires 20 ranks in Handle Animal and a DC36 Handle Animal check
Every level provides the following:
* 1d8+ConMod HP
* +1 BAB
If you beat the DC by 5 or more, your mount gains the following bonuses:
* At HD3, Light Armor Proficiency
* At HD4, Dodge
* At HD5, Increase Natural Armor by 2 to a maximum of +4 total
* At HD6, Mobility
* At HD7, +2 to Fort/Reflex saves
If you do not beat the DC by 5 or more, you can attempt to expand on your mount's training again at any point. This training still requires 1 week of effort.
Here is my 2 cp if you care to listen. I like your idea of a horse getting smarter, and stronger. I did think the +10/+15 was a bit high, and instead of the Natural Armor a dodge bonus. You've thought these over and that's cool.
Another thought I had though was maybe giving horses Evasion after much survivability. Way back to riding checks if a fighter rides the same horse maybe every battle gives him a +1/4 to riding checks made with the same steed? Familiarity and all that whatnot.
Am I really the only person who tricks out their horse with magic armor, custom defensive items, and stoneskins it?
The only reason my hound doesn't have those is because I can't afford/make them yet!
Horseshoes of Dodging, Bridle of Evasion, Caparison of shielding and Blinders of Blur?
Am I really the only person who tricks out their horse with magic armor, custom defensive items, and stoneskins it?Sadly there are too few of us!
My mount has better armor than me. And it's not even my Animal Companion.
Well, how about allowing mounts to "level up" as an animal companion at half the rate PCs do. It'll be like 3.5 Ranger's animal companion. It won't be very useful in combat, but at least it could take a few more hits.
This way the mount becomes slightly stronger, but not nearly strong enough to even come close to "real" Animal Companions and similar class features.
Here is my 2 cp if you care to listen. I like your idea of a horse getting smarter, and stronger. I did think the +10/+15 was a bit high, and instead of the Natural Armor a dodge bonus. You've thought these over and that's cool.
I did change the HP gain to be a d8+ConMod. I also adjusted the bonuses taking into consideration the input you have all provided. The equivalent of 5 feats over 20 levels does the trick.
Another thought I had though was maybe giving horses Evasion after much survivability. Way back to riding checks if a fighter rides the same horse maybe every battle gives him a +1/4 to riding checks made with the same steed? Familiarity and all that whatnot.
I think Evasion would be a step too far. Interesting idea about adding to Ride checks, though I'm not sure if that introduces more complexity than what I'm aiming for. Still, the idea of adding 1/4 of your Handle Animal ranks to Ride checks is an interesting skill synergy.
Well, how about allowing mounts to "level up" as an animal companion at half the rate PCs do. It'll be like 3.5 Ranger's animal companion. It won't be very useful in combat, but at least it could take a few more hits.
This way the mount becomes slightly stronger, but not nearly strong enough to even come close to "real" Animal Companions and similar class features.
Even going at 1/2 the rate of a standard companion is too powerful. There's a fine line here between simply increasing a standard creature's survivability and between allowing anyone to gain something that is normally a class feature. By not using the Animal Companion chart in any way, there maintains a clear line in the sand between the two.
Even if you want to stick (mostly) to RAW, why not just "fluff-rename" one of the stronger rideable animals?
I do stuff like that all the time in my game.
Want your fighter to have a longsword for fluff/style reasons, but have to take a scimitar, because you want to go critical chain?
Here, have this thing that looks, smells, tastes, and feals like a longsword but coincidentially has the stats of a scimitar.
No harm done, everybody happy.
Suggested by many of you:
You want a tougher mount? Talk to your GM, go on a sidequest to obtain exotic whatchanameit, make appropriate handle animal checks to train it.
My suggestion:
You want to toughen your mount? Talk to your GM and go on an equally hard/expensive Sidequest, make the equal appropriate handle animal checks and poof, your Mount gets the stats of the exotic whatchanameit, because you just obtained *insert custom magic fluffitem here* and trained your mount to use it.
Who gets hurt in the process? Nobody, since the game-balance has not been tampered with and the player has spent equal ressources to get an equally strong mount.
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I apologize for tooting my own horn twice in the same thread, but This Book has templates for improving horses, a special feat for giving companion mounts to classes that don't have them, and a set of simplified mounted combat rules that don't require the mount to even have stats at all if you want to play it that way. Not to mention a few neat magical gewgaws.
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One of the original cited threads was mine; I too was looking to use fairly mundane mounts but have them be a bit sturdier.
A class-feature mount gets you a second attacker, with hooves and teeth and so forth. That's not what I want. I don't even want my mundane mount to fight. Let it keep it's attack stats as low as they were to begin with. All I want is a mount that stays alive.
I think the easiest way to describe such a mount is with an animal-only NPC class: the Sturdy Mount.
BAB: No progression.
HD: d8, just like animals.
Dodge bonus to AC: +1 every even level.
Saves: strong Fort and Ref, weak Will. Just like regular animals.
At 3rd, 7th and 11th level: Armor Training, as a fighter.
At 2nd level: Evasion.
Higher levels: resistance to mental effects to make the mount betray its rider?
To get it, take a Feat, available at level 3:
Sturdy Mount Trainer
Requires: Animal Handling 3 ranks, Ride 3 ranks, Mounted Combat feat
Effect: you can train one mount to gain levels in Sturdy Mount. It gets a maximum levels in Sturdy Mount equal to (the lowest of your Ride and Animal Handling) -3.
If your maximum rises, you can train the mount up to the new level. If the mount dies or is lost, you can train a new one. Training takes two hours per day, and one level is gained per week of training.
Special: If you have Trick Riding, you can train the mount to have Uncanny Dodge. This takes a week.
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My personal homebrew suggestion? The Mounted Combat feat shouldn't be a feat, it should be part of the Ride skill. Maybe taking the feat gives you a bonus to it?
Expand the Ride/Handle Animal skills to give them options for doing things like this. Maybe add "shake it off" to the list of tricks you can teach an animal, to help it reattempt a saving throw against a poison or disease? Maybe a Ride check could add a bonus to a mount's saving throw? Maybe you can make a Handle Animal check to apply first aid to an animal the same way the Heal skill works on people?