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I've been looking at the Treesinger druid (from the Advanced Race Guide) and tried to go through the different Bestiaries for some plants that are actually worthwhile to change into right of the bat (at 4th level), for one reason or other.
I've made a short list of the creatures I found (these should all be FPS legal):
Violet Fungus (Bestiary I, p. 275)
Medium; Low-light vision; Speed 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.; 4 natural attacks: Tentacles (1d4+str dmg)
Mandragora (Bestiary II, p. 185)
Small; Low-light vision; Speed 40 ft., burrow 10 ft., climb 40 ft.; Reach 5 ft. / 10 ft. with slam; 3 natural attacks: 1 Bite (1d6+str+grab) and 2 Slams (1d4+str)
Weaknesses: Vulnerable to supernatural darkness
Phycomid (Bestiary II, p. 201)
Small; Speed 10 ft.; Ranged Touch Attack (2d6 acid [+1½ x str?, maximum 6 attacks per minute)
Cerebric Fungus (Bestiary III, p. 52)
Medium; Darkvision (60 ft.), Low-light vision; Speed 30 ft.; Reach 5 ft. / 15 ft. with tendrils; 3 natural attacks: 1 bite (1d6+str), 2 tendrils (1d4+str)
Weaknesses: Vulnerable to sonic
Fungus Leshy (Bestiary III, p. 177)
Small; Darkvision 60 ft., Low-light vision; Speed 20 ft.; Reach 5 ft.; 3 natural attacks: 1 bite (1d6+str), 2 claws (1d3+str); 1 ranged attack: puffball (1+str)
Leaf Leshy (Bestiary III, p. 179)
Small; Darkvision 60 ft., Low-light vision; Speed 20 ft., climb 10 ft., fly 10 ft. (clumsy); glide; No natural attacks; 1 ranged attack: seedpods (touch) (1[+str?])
Seaweed Leshy (Bestiary III, p. 180)
Small; Darkvision 60 ft., Low-light vision; Speed 20 ft., swim 20 ft.; 1 natural attack: slam (1d6+str) ; 1 ranged attack: water jet (1)
Myceloid (Bestiary III, p. 196)
Small; Darkvision 60 ft., Low-light vision, [Scent?]; Speed 20 ft.; 2 natural attacks 2 claws (1d6+Str)
Weaknesses: Vulnerable to electricity
Phantom Fungus (Bestiary III, p. 219)
Medium; Low-light vision; Speed 20 ft., climb 20 ft.; 1 natural attack bite (2d6+1½ x Str)
What stands out is possible the Mandragora, because of it's speed, it's number of attacks, it's reach and that it has grab (without reach though). Also the Leaf Leshy - as it has a fly speed (glide only though); the Violet Fungus because of its reach and 4 attacks, and the Cerebric Fungus because of its superior reach (15 ft).
Is there something I've missed? Is the Mandragora the basic go-to form for a Treesinger druid?
I think you've got the majority of them.
I wish that there weren't so many restrictions of the Tree Singer's shape change though, I REALLY like the flavor of the class but I can't help but feel that completely trading away animals & elementals for getting access to plant form I 4 levels ealier, yet everything else stays the same... Really hurts it.
It would be a much better archetype if there were more and better plant monsters. You might be able to form the monsters given as Plant Companions.
I too am trying to make a good treesinger, I really apreciate the list.
One really crappy thing tho, you list all the movement modes, but we dont actually get any of them.
Plant shape line gives no movement modes (well ok, you can move 5' if the plant cant move)
Hmm, the polymorph paragraph says the following: "In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types,", and a bit later it says: "Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing."
That seems to me to indicate that you do get the movement of the form you wildshape into? Have I missed something?
And I'm glad that the list is of help :)
While I tend to agree with you that it does in fact look that way (And I would be SOOOOOO happy if it turned out to BE that way) if you look at all the other XXXXX Shape spells (Beast, form of the dragon, monsterous phis.... etc) they all call out what movement modes you get.
So we have 3 choices here.
1. They forgot movement modes when writing plant form.. (doubt it)
2. They assumed that you would refrence the polymorph rules and know you get them.
3. As they called them out for every other similar spell, that the fact that they left movement out of plant form was on purpose.
Frankly while I really want it to be #2 most people seem to beleive it is #3
Also while the quoted line says "If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing."
That does not say that the form grants it.
Some of the spells do grant swim or burrow (the higher beast shape spells) and the polymorph simply states that you can breathe.
Again, I think it really sucks, but there you go.
Hmm, that's an interesting question. I Think I will post that in the rules forum.
Doesnt a shambling mound or treant count as a plant creature?
Those are either large (Shambling Mound) or huge (Treant), and can therefore only be wildshaped into by using Plant Shape II and III respectively.
The list is made to be used right form the start (from 4th level).
dot
Commenting to dot for my character and add a few plants (if your DM allows them). I'm also assuming that the Wild Shape plant form grants the movement speeds, otherwise the Treesinger is a terribly worthless archetype.
Mi-Go (Pathfinder Adventure Path #46: Wake of the Watcher)
Medium; Low-light vision; Speed 30 ft., fly 50 ft. (good); 4 natural attacks: Claws (1d4+Str+Grab)
Calathgar (Pathfinder Adventure Path #34: Blood for Blood)
Small; Darkvision, low-light vision; Speed 20ft., climb 20ft.; Reach 5ft./10ft. with Tendrils; 3 natural attacks: Flower (1d6+Str+1d6 cold) and 2 Tendrils (1d4+Str)
Weaknesses: Vulnerable to fire
You forgot Carnivorous Flower, Crawling Vine, Puffball and Sapling Treant. They are all fully statted plant creatures from a legal source.
I think he intentionally left them off because many don't consider companions fully statted. And you'd have to use the adult forms, which would make the Crawling Vine and Sapling Treant large. This list is meant for level 4 Treesingers.
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You forgot Carnivorous Flower, Crawling Vine, Puffball and Sapling Treant. They are all fully statted plant creatures from a legal source.I think he intentionally left them off because many don't consider companions fully statted.
Really? What stats are missing?
And you'd have to use the adult forms, which would make the Crawling Vine and Sapling Treant large. This list is meant for level 4 Treesingers.
That still leaves puffball and carnivorous flower.
You forgot Carnivorous Flower, Crawling Vine, Puffball and Sapling Treant. They are all fully statted plant creatures from a legal source.I think he intentionally left them off because many don't consider companions fully statted.Really? What stats are missing?
Typically, you can only Wild Shape into creatures who have a full entry in a bestiary or supplement. Some GMs are lenient on this, but others aren't.
For example, if you Wild Shape into a bear, you can't Wild Shape into the companion form. You have to use the bestiary entry.
I think that the bit about movement is correct except that you get land speed automatically. Nkne of the polymorph spells discuss it, so I think you can assume that it is implied.
I'm not sure though. The language in the polymorph section is pretty clear, it seems more like the listed movement modes within the spells themselves may just be limiters rather than enablers. Evidence for this might be that elem body 1 gives you a 60 ft fly speed as an air elemental. But a small elemental has a 100ft fly speed and this is the ONLY type of air elemental you can turn into with that spell.
I'm not sure though. The language in the polymorph section is pretty clear, it seems more like the listed movement modes within the spells themselves may just be limiters rather than enablers. Evidence for this might be that elem body 1 gives you a 60 ft fly speed as an air elemental. But a small elemental has a 100ft fly speed and this is the ONLY type of air elemental you can turn into with that spell.
I never thought to read it that way, and that makes a lot of sense. I posted on the Rules Forum, so hopefully we'll get some clarification, but most seem to disagree with your perspective. Although, again, it makes a lot of sense.
Nevermind... this is all pretty well covered.
Polymorph: a polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +10 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature. Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor. In addition, each polymorph spell CAN grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing. The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.
So, thats pretty definitive. You get land speed even if it isn't listed. You can get other movement modes, but only if the spell says so explicitly
I agree with templating for Druid archtypes.
There are no huge bears, no huge cats... it means that saurian is the only viable archtype past level 6. And you don't get much for templating up to a bigger size. Dmg dice increase by one step, -1 hit -1 AC, +5ft reach, plus the slightly better bonuses from Beast Shape. (+2 str, -2 dex, +2 Na)
Not a big deal IMO, and something I would definitely allow. (but only for a specialized archtyped druid, and only for forms attached to his or her specialization)
I've been looking at the Treesinger druid (from the Advanced Race Guide) and tried to go through the different Bestiaries for some plants that are actually worthwhile to change into right of the bat (at 4th level), for one reason or other.
I've made a short list of the creatures I found (these should all be FPS legal):
Violet Fungus (Bestiary I, p. 275)
Medium; Low-light vision; Speed 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.; 4 natural attacks: Tentacles (1d4+str dmg)Mandragora (Bestiary II, p. 185)
Small; Low-light vision; Speed 40 ft., burrow 10 ft., climb 40 ft.; Reach 5 ft. / 10 ft. with slam; 3 natural attacks: 1 Bite (1d6+str+grab) and 2 Slams (1d4+str)
Weaknesses: Vulnerable to supernatural darknessPhycomid (Bestiary II, p. 201)
Small; Speed 10 ft.; Ranged Touch Attack (2d6 acid [+1½ x str?, maximum 6 attacks per minute)Cerebric Fungus (Bestiary III, p. 52)
Medium; Darkvision (60 ft.), Low-light vision; Speed 30 ft.; Reach 5 ft. / 15 ft. with tendrils; 3 natural attacks: 1 bite (1d6+str), 2 tendrils (1d4+str)
Weaknesses: Vulnerable to sonicFungus Leshy (Bestiary III, p. 177)
Small; Darkvision 60 ft., Low-light vision; Speed 20 ft.; Reach 5 ft.; 3 natural attacks: 1 bite (1d6+str), 2 claws (1d3+str); 1 ranged attack: puffball (1+str)Leaf Leshy (Bestiary III, p. 179)
Small; Darkvision 60 ft., Low-light vision; Speed 20 ft., climb 10 ft., fly 10 ft. (clumsy); glide; No natural attacks; 1 ranged attack: seedpods (touch) (1[+str?])Seaweed Leshy (Bestiary III, p. 180)
Small; Darkvision 60 ft., Low-light vision; Speed 20 ft., swim 20 ft.; 1 natural attack: slam (1d6+str) ; 1 ranged attack: water jet (1)Myceloid (Bestiary III, p. 196)
Small; Darkvision 60 ft., Low-light vision, [Scent?]; Speed 20 ft.; 2 natural attacks 2 claws (1d6+Str)
Weaknesses: Vulnerable to electricityPhantom Fungus (Bestiary III, p. 219)
Medium; Low-light vision; Speed 20 ft., climb 20 ft.; 1 natural attack bite (2d6+1½ x Str)What stands out is possible the Mandragora, because of it's speed, it's number...
Commenting to dot for my character and add a few plants (if your DM allows them). I'm also assuming that the Wild Shape plant form grants the movement speeds, otherwise the Treesinger is a terribly worthless archetype.
Mi-Go (Pathfinder Adventure Path #46: Wake of the Watcher)
Medium; Low-light vision; Speed 30 ft., fly 50 ft. (good); 4 natural attacks: Claws (1d4+Str+Grab)Calathgar (Pathfinder Adventure Path #34: Blood for Blood)
Small; Darkvision, low-light vision; Speed 20ft., climb 20ft.; Reach 5ft./10ft. with Tendrils; 3 natural attacks: Flower (1d6+Str+1d6 cold) and 2 Tendrils (1d4+Str)
Weaknesses: Vulnerable to fire
One really crappy thing tho, you list all the movement modes, but we dont actually get any of them.
Plant shape line gives no movement modes (well ok, you can move 5' if the plant cant move)
While I tend to agree with you that it does in fact look that way (And I would be SOOOOOO happy if it turned out to BE that way) if you look at all the other XXXXX Shape spells (Beast, form of the dragon, monsterous phis.... etc) they all call out what movement modes you get.
So we have 3 choices here.
1. They forgot movement modes when writing plant form.. (doubt it)
2. They assumed that you would refrence the polymorph rules and know you get them.
3. As they called them out for every other similar spell, that the fact that they left movement out of plant form was on purpose.
Frankly while I really want it to be #2 most people seem to beleive it is #3
Also while the quoted line says "If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing."
That does not say that the form grants it.
Some of the spells do grant swim or burrow (the higher beast shape spells) and the polymorph simply states that you can breathe.
Again, I think it really sucks, but there you go.
Personally, I love the Treesinger build, but their are minor problems with it.
The biggest advantage of the build is Plant Shape, which unlike Beast Shape does not have any movement limitations. Also, it will give you a movement when you otherwise would not get one. If you don't agree read the rules again on the school of magic Transmutation (Polymorph), as a Treesinger's Wild Shape follows the rules of the Spell Plant Shape w/o the Constrict or Poison abilities @ level 4.
One downfall to this class is the Wild Shape as it follows Plant Shape, which has ability limitations. So you would not gain the Scent ability. Also, you only gain the natural attacks of the form you take not the special ability attacks. Therefore on forms such as Phycomid you actually have no attacks, as the ranged attack listed is a special ability attack. If you could get the special attacks this build would be awesome, as the Mi-Go would be able to use Evisceration once you have grappled an opponent. Who wouldn't love being able to give 1D2 points of Ability damage of your choice each round.
I am going to be going through this list and updating it to show all of the forms correctly under the rules for Wild Shape & Transmutation (PolyMorph). I will post it when I have it finished under the thread I started: Treesinger - Elven Archetype Druid: paizo.com/threads/rzs2rfpp?Treesinger-Elven-Archetype-Druid
Today I learned Treesinger druid is a thing, and I'm very intrigued by it. While I think I like the idea of the regular druid more on the whole, this gives me a great idea for a character in a future campaign I might be joining. In addition, this makes me wonder if there is a "Elemental Druid" I've also missed that has easier access to the elemental forms normally attained at high level through wild shape?
Today I learned Treesinger druid is a thing, and I'm very intrigued by it. While I think I like the idea of the regular druid more on the whole, this gives me a great idea for a character in a future campaign I might be joining. In addition, this makes me wonder if there is a "Elemental Druid" I've also missed that has easier access to the elemental forms normally attained at high level through wild shape?
I have just gone through all of my books and then did a web search for homebrew archetypes of the druid. I do not see any that are designed around elementals specifically. Even the races such as undines, and sylphs that are part elemental in original origin only have archetypes that revolve around creatures that dwell in that element.
IE - Undine's must choose and animal companion with the swim ability and when the take the shape of a creature with the aquatic or water subtype they are counted as being +1 level higher. Sylphs must choose an animal companion that has the ability to fly, and when the shape into a creature with a fly speed they are counted as being +1 level higher.
I have just gone through all of my books and then did a web search for homebrew archetypes of the druid. I do not see any that are designed around elementals specifically. Even the races such as undines, and sylphs that are part elemental in original origin only have archetypes that revolve around creatures that dwell in that element.
IE - Undine's must choose and animal companion with the swim ability and when the take the shape of a creature with the aquatic or water subtype they are counted as being +1 level higher. Sylphs must choose an animal companion that has the ability to fly, and when the shape into a creature with a fly speed they are counted as being +1 level higher.
I did a search myself and was also interested to find that not even a home-brew of this idea existed. Odd as I feel I'm not the only one who has thought of such an idea.