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I know as a Treesinger Druid my use of wild shape is slightly limited compared to the regular druids. My question revolves around the differences between the spells Beast Shape and Plant Shape. For example with beast shape I, II, & III there are specific movements rates limitations, whereas with plant shape it only states: If the form you assume does not possess the ability to move, your speed is reduced to 5 feet and you lose all other forms of movement. The question remains that if the plant does have a movement speed do you gain it as written, since polymorph grants movement speeds. Therefore, I interpret this as an upgraded feature for treesingers as they are not as limited in terms of the movement speed of the creature shape they assume.
IE - If I were to become a Mi-Go: Do I gain the ability to fly (good) at a speed of 50ft?
Next, since only constrict and poison appear to be limited by level, do I still gain the grab ability to grapple after a successful hit? And, if so since Evisceration is a special form of the Mi-Go grapple, or Blood Drain a special grapple ability of a Mandragora; would I gain these as well?
@LazarX
This doesnt even address the question as it is a question regarding the emulated spell Plant Shape a polymorph spell. Also, there are two questions and since you are saying I will assume you are answering No to both.
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The answer is no to both due to the limitations of polymorph spells. While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you base speed is set to that of the creature. Any additional movement types are set by the spell or the form, whichever is worse. Since plant Shape does not specify flight, you do not gain a flight speed even if you take the form of a mi-go.
You gain the grab and poison if the form has them because they are listed in plant shape. You do not gain evisceration or blood drain because they are not listed in plant shape.
The answer is no to both due to the limitations of polymorph spells. While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you base speed is set to that of the creature. Any additional movement types are set by the spell or the form, whichever is worse. Since plant Shape does not specify flight, you do not gain a flight speed even if you take the form of a mi-go.
You gain the grab and poison if the form has them because they are listed in plant shape. You do not gain evisceration or blood drain because they are not listed in plant shape.
Actually there is no limitations listed under Plant Shape for movement, in fact it gives you a bonus if the form taken has no movement. Therefore you would gain flight, climb, burrow, or any other forms of movement under the rules of Transmutation (Polymorph).
I have sent an email request to the Development Team though, as this question has been asked in multiple threads here going all the way back to 2012. I am hoping we will get an official response soon.
Originally posted in the thread: Treesinger druid and plant wild shape: paizo.com/threads/rzs2oh7d?Treesinger-druid-and-plant-wild-shape
Please keep in mind this list is still being worked and is not a good list as it appears, but an excellent reference form.
I've been looking at the Treesinger druid (from the Advanced Race Guide) and tried to go through the different Bestiaries for some plants that are actually worthwhile to change into right of the bat (at 4th level), for one reason or other.
I've made a short list of the creatures I found (these should all be FPS legal):
Violet Fungus (Bestiary I, p. 275)
Medium; Low-light vision; Speed 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.; 4 natural attacks: Tentacles (1d4+str dmg)Mandragora (Bestiary II, p. 185)
Small; Low-light vision; Speed 40 ft., burrow 10 ft., climb 40 ft.; Reach 5 ft. / 10 ft. with slam; 3 natural attacks: 1 Bite (1d6+str+grab) and 2 Slams (1d4+str)
Weaknesses: Vulnerable to supernatural darknessPhycomid (Bestiary II, p. 201)
Small; Speed 10 ft.; Ranged Touch Attack (2d6 acid [+1½ x str?, maximum 6 attacks per minute)Cerebric Fungus (Bestiary III, p. 52)
Medium; Darkvision (60 ft.), Low-light vision; Speed 30 ft.; Reach 5 ft. / 15 ft. with tendrils; 3 natural attacks: 1 bite (1d6+str), 2 tendrils (1d4+str)
Weaknesses: Vulnerable to sonicFungus Leshy (Bestiary III, p. 177)
Small; Darkvision 60 ft., Low-light vision; Speed 20 ft.; Reach 5 ft.; 3 natural attacks: 1 bite (1d6+str), 2 claws (1d3+str); 1 ranged attack: puffball (1+str)Leaf Leshy (Bestiary III, p. 179)
Small; Darkvision 60 ft., Low-light vision; Speed 20 ft., climb 10 ft., fly 10 ft. (clumsy); glide; No natural attacks; 1 ranged attack: seedpods (touch) (1[+str?])Seaweed Leshy (Bestiary III, p. 180)
Small; Darkvision 60 ft., Low-light vision; Speed 20 ft., swim 20 ft.; 1 natural attack: slam (1d6+str) ; 1 ranged attack: water jet (1)Myceloid (Bestiary III, p. 196)
Small; Darkvision 60 ft., Low-light vision, [Scent?]; Speed 20 ft.; 2 natural attacks 2 claws (1d6+Str)
Weaknesses: Vulnerable to electricityPhantom Fungus (Bestiary III, p. 219)
Medium; Low-light vision; Speed 20 ft., climb 20 ft.; 1 natural attack bite (2d6+1½ x Str)What stands out is possible the Mandragora, because of it's speed, it's number...
Commenting to dot for my character and add a few plants (if your DM allows them). I'm also assuming that the Wild Shape plant form grants the movement speeds, otherwise the Treesinger is a terribly worthless archetype.
Mi-Go (Pathfinder Adventure Path #46: Wake of the Watcher)
Medium; Low-light vision; Speed 30 ft., fly 50 ft. (good); 4 natural attacks: Claws (1d4+Str+Grab)Calathgar (Pathfinder Adventure Path #34: Blood for Blood)
Small; Darkvision, low-light vision; Speed 20ft., climb 20ft.; Reach 5ft./10ft. with Tendrils; 3 natural attacks: Flower (1d6+Str+1d6 cold) and 2 Tendrils (1d4+Str)
Weaknesses: Vulnerable to fire
Personally, I love the Treesinger build, but their are minor problems with it.
The biggest advantage of the build is Plant Shape, which unlike Beast Shape does not have any movement limitations. Also, it will give you a movement when you otherwise would not get one. If you don't agree read the rules again on the school of magic Transmutation (Polymorph), as a Treesinger's Wild Shape follows the rules of the Spell Plant Shape w/o the Constrict or Poison abilities @ level 4.
One downfall to this class is the Wild Shape as it follows Plant Shape, which has ability limitations. So you would not gain the Scent ability. Also, you only gain the natural attacks of the form you take not the special ability attacks. Therefore on forms such as Phycomid you actually have no attacks, as the ranged attack listed is a special ability attack. If you could get the special attacks this build would be awesome, as the Mi-Go would be able to use Evisceration once you have grappled an opponent. Who wouldn't love being able to give 1D2 points of Ability damage of your choice each round.
I am going to be going through this list and updating it to show all of the forms correctly under the rules for Wild Shape & Transmutation (PolyMorph). I will post it when I have it finished under the thread I started: Treesinger - Elven Archetype Druid: paizo.com/threads/rzs2rfpp?Treesinger-Elven-Archetype-Druid
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No you wouldn't. You gain the base speed of the form you take through a polymorph effect. This is the land speed of the creature. In order to gain any other movement type, it must be listed under the polymorph spell you are using.
Alter Self, Beast Shape, Elemental Body, Giant Form, Undead Anatomy, and Monstrous Physique all have additional movement forms listed. If plant form granted those additional movement types, they would be listed. They are not. It's possible this may be an oversight as at the time the spell was written, there was no plant form you could take that had a fly speed. If so the spell should be corrected by errata.
As written, you do not gain any additional movement modes for any version of Plant Shape.
No you wouldn't. You gain the base speed of the form you take through a polymorph effect. This is the land speed of the creature. In order to gain any other movement type, it must be listed under the polymorph spell you are using.
Alter Self, Beast Shape, Elemental Body, Giant Form, Undead Anatomy, and Monstrous Physique all have additional movement forms listed. If plant form granted those additional movement types, they would be listed. They are not. It's possible this may be an oversight as at the time the spell was written, there was no plant form you could take that had a fly speed. If so the spell should be corrected by errata.
As written, you do not gain any additional movement modes for any version of Plant Shape.
Polymorph: a polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +10 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature. Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor. In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing. The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.
I don't get where you are getting that polymorph only grant land speed which is the normal movement mode of creatures that do not burrow, climb, fly, or swim. It states that your base speed, not your base land speed, is replaced by the movement types, not the land speed, of the new form. Therefore since the Mi-Go has both a land speed and a fly speex u get both.
IE - if you are a merfolk who is wild shaping into a treant. Base Speed is 5 ft on land and 50 ft swim. Yet the new form doesnt have a swim speed so you lose. Vice versa if I was a treant who polymorph into a merfolk I gain the swim speed of 50 on top of 5 on land.
Same goes for flight, climb, & burrow.
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You are missing the word can. It can give you a number of benefits, including movement types, if the spell you are using grants those benefits or movement types. If it doesn't then you only get the base speed of the creature.
Base speed refers to land speed. That is why every creature entry in the bestiary is listed as speed: x, swim: x, fly: x, climb: x, and so on. If the spell you are using doesn't grant a fly speed, you don't get a fly speed.
Polymorph spells only grant movement types if the spell grants them, regardless of the form you choose. As I said, this may be an oversight for plant form that should be fixed via errata. But RAW, you do not gain movement types from plant shape. I would prefer if it did, and if I had a treesinger or wood oracle in a home game I would house rule it to allow mi-go shapes flight. But that is a house rule, and has no place in the rules forum.
My little breakdown of this and this is half brained because I'm tired. I'm playing a treesinger atm and while I would like the movement speeds listed under the creature to be given I think it does need an FAQ.
Polymorph subschool of Transmutation states that you gain the Base speed of the creature, not the base land speed. A quick look in common terms does show that base speed and base land speed are different terms although they usually (but not always) mean the same speed. So what do we classify as a base speed for polymorph spells, after all you do lose any form of movement you had before, so what do you gain? What is classified as a base speed for the plant shape spells?
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You are missing the word can. It can give you a number of benefits, including movement types, if the spell you are using grants those benefits or movement types. If it doesn't then you only get the base speed of the creature.
Base speed refers to land speed. That is why every creature entry in the bestiary is listed as speed: x, swim: x, fly: x, climb: x, and so on. If the spell you are using doesn't grant a fly speed, you don't get a fly speed.
Polymorph spells only grant movement types if the spell grants them, regardless of the form you choose. As I said, this may be an oversight for plant form that should be fixed via errata. But RAW, you do not gain movement types from plant shape. I would prefer if it did, and if I had a treesinger or wood oracle in a home game I would house rule it to allow mi-go shapes flight. But that is a house rule, and has no place in the rules forum.
My little breakdown of this and this is half brained because I'm tired. I'm playing a treesinger atm and while I would like the movement speeds listed under the creature to be given I think it does need an FAQ.
Polymorph subschool of Transmutation states that you gain the Base speed of the creature, not the base land speed. A quick look in common terms does show that base speed and base land speed are different terms although they usually (but not always) mean the same speed. So what do we classify as a base speed for polymorph spells, after all you do lose any form of movement you had before, so what do you gain? What is classified as a base speed for the plant shape spells?
haruhiko88, Thank you someone who reads all the rules and understands them. Imbicatus you are right that base speed does mean base land speed sometimes, in the rules it even states that if no other for of movement is specifically refered to that base speed is to land speed. The word refers doesn't mean is, just as you state can doesn't mean will. Plant shape doesn't state that is doesn't provide other movement it states if the new form doesn't have a movement you get one. Polymorph says the specific spells limit granted abilities, and Plant Shape doesn't not limit movement.