^Thread Title
I've tried a boat load of times to figure out from a game balance perspective as to why in the hell a summoner can't equip its eidolon separately like every other class with a companion, and cannot come up with anything for the life of me. So I'm wondering how many people have ignored this rule, and is there were any balance problems associated with it?
the eidolon and summoner share items for a reason, you are expected to equip the summoner. the reason the eidolon doesn't have it's own set of item slots is because it gets such massive DPR bonuses, that the only real competition is the ALLCAPS builds. Such as AM BARBARIAN.
Yeah, I just don't see it, nor did plenty of others when the APG first came out. WBL still limits what I can afford to equip either with, and a fully equipped animal companion is extremely powerful (especially an Ape with all of one extra point in Int to take Weapon/Armor prof feats).
Also, don't waste my time acting like I'm an idiot because I just don't think the numbers agree. I have no doubt that a few really well optimized builds could break things,but that applies to any class. I am a game designer, and I'm pretty good with balance, and I just don't see it. I asked for responses from people who have ignored that rule for a reason. I know when the APG came out there were quite a few folks who said they'd be ignoring it. If all you have to throw at me is theorycrafting and generalizations, you're wasting my time.
Except there are ways to wiggle around the wbl rules like crafting. And higher level equipping the character that needs the bonuses less with a slightly weaker version of the item makes it easy.
Its a pretty good power balanced for one of the strongest class abilities in the game.
As for your ape example it ignores two problems, one that's a lot of feats and two for whatever reason a lot of players seem to think making an ape smart somehow gives it opposable thumbs.
.....Really? Go do some research man. Apes (specifically gorillas, the default Ape for ACs) have opposable thumbs, like a rather large number of primates (all of which have thumbs, not all of which have opposable ones).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
but gorillas and orangutans do have opposable thumbs. it's what allows them to use tools.
From memory, originally the Eidolon could use magic items. Then after playtesting it became weapons, shields, eyes, head, neck, and shoulders.
And then after even more playtesting, they added the shared slots limitation to dial back the power of the summoner.
And even with that limitation in place, an Eidolon is still able to match and beat many, many geared builds of the average player. (Remember kids, the average forum goer is not your average player :))
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
From memory, originally the Eidolon could use magic items. Then after playtesting it became weapons, shields, eyes, head, neck, and shoulders.
And then after even more playtesting, they added the shared slots limitation to dial back the power of the summoner.
And even with that limitation in place, an Eidolon is still able to match and beat many, many geared builds of the average player. (Remember kids, the average forum goer is not your average player :))
This.
Also, the eidolon is not the precise equivalent of an animal companion. It is more powerful than an animal companion for DPS, skills/points available, modular customization, synergistic abilities with its master, plus a real Int rating that doesn't require being pumped by an ability increase just to take most feats (some of which still require GM fiat) nor restrict combat ability with tricks and requisite Handle Animal checks. Top that off with the ability to gain a powerful summon ability (fast cast, 10x duration) whenever the eidolon dies or is dismissed, and it may shed light on why playtesting led Paizo to make the gear-sharing decisions it did for the summoner.
One of the meanest encounters that a party of mine ever faced was a cabal of summoners. Each of them had an eidolon modeled after demons, and the summoners themselves weren't entirely pushovers (a team of summoners with proficiencies, 3/4 BAB, mass buffs, and eidolons?). It was quite harrowing. Especially in relation to the effort vs XP/treasure. :P
the eidolon and summoner share items for a reason, you are expected to equip the summoner. the reason the eidolon doesn't have it's own set of item slots is because it gets such massive DPR bonuses, that the only real competition is the ALLCAPS builds. Such as AM BARBARIAN.
zen archer, vivisectionist beastmorph alchemist, melee druid, and gunslinger. If they weren't intended to wear gear then they wouldn't be allowed to wear gear.
@Mojorat Apes do have opposable thumbs but they can't really use them for anything more than grabbing.
@cheapy +1
I don't get it either. A druid can outfit his animal companion with magical gear, they don't use common slots.
And a druid is a full caster, 3/4 bab...and can summon, with swap outs.
Dunno what the big deal is.
So, before the thread gets derailed to be about damage output and other silly things, does anyone else remember any additional clarification from the devs on this topic other than "playtesting."?
My own personal opinion is that they moved away from 'summoner' and towards 'pokemon trainer' in the design of the class.
Not a bad thing in my opinion, but if that was the concept they were going for(which I highly doubt) then they did a better job with the Preservationist Alchemist.
Animal companions get feats. You can raise their int to qualify for any feat or skill you want to give them. Druids get buffs to load them up with as well. Druids can also crowd control and blast. They are more versatile than summoners.
Sentient outsider isn't that big of a deal. There are more spells out there that hinder them or hedge them out than animal companions. Hell, there's even spells specificly designed to take eidolons over or dismiss them outright...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
but they also have quadruple the skill points of an animal companion, higher DPR numbers, a much higher level of customizability, more reach, the advantage of sentience, and similar stuff the animal doesn't get.
the summoner itself, is also a full progression arcane spellcaster crammed into a bardic spell list. they may not have as many spells as a druid, but they get many important buffs a level or 2 earlier than a proper full caster. they also summon as a standard action for 10 times the duration at the highest appropriate spell level a wizard of equivalent level can cast as many times per day as a sorcerer can utilize 1st level bloodline powers. the summmons are also a lot better than any 1st level bloodline powers to begin with. they can also use cheaper metarods and (Commonly Houseruled) pearls than a druid, cast spontaneously, gets a better list of weapon proficiencies. which contains the longspear and spiked gauntlet, the 2 best simple weapons in the game. conjuration is the best school out there.
even nastier is either the synthesist or the master summoner. which take either the eidolon and make it an unkillable martial god or take the summons and make them even nastier.
I am a game designer....Don't expect that to add anything to your argument without something to back it up. Not that it would mean anything. Game Designers are a Dime For Five. You can only be judged by your published work.
High Psionics: Soulknives and Psionics Unleashed, both through Dreamscarred Press. (Obviously, Psionics Unleashed wasn't all me, but I'm in there as an author for a reason.)
I think james pretty well hit the nail on the head for me. I just don't see not sharing slots as creating a balance issue, and it's more hassle to keep track of then you should have to worry about. I get why eidolons can't wear armor (I caught that as a problem on my first read-through of the playtesting, not sure how it was ever allowed), but I don't see why they are limited on anything else. I could just equip the eidolon and IGNORE my summoner, and depending on the build, that might not matter (which could also be said for a druid and its AC, TBH). I just don't see the point of a rules exception that means keeping track of extra crap I shouldn't have to keep track of. Just overly complicated to me.
And I still haven't seen an answer to my original question.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Has there ever been a definitive answer of what happens to items equipped on the eidolon when it is dismissed? As that may complicate things further.
Anyway, having played a summoner for quite a while now (a weekly game since late last year), I've had no problem with the no-shared-slots rule. Though that may be to do with the fact I've not had the money to have much in the way of extra magic about. My eidolon, without gear, still fights almost as well as the fighter while I through around a pretty impress set of underleveled buff spells.
The summoner spell list is too good for what it is. It's not bard casting, it is just dressed up as bard casting.
Without all the snark.
It was found by many that the WBL was not enough of a limitation.
Example: I could buy me a +2 armor OR I could buy both me and the edilon a +1 armor and still have 2k left over for other goodies. Both beings having and making use of a +1 armor with other benifits is pretty clearly more power than one being having a +2 armor.
No, I have not tried it. But others have before that rule was created. Most of them seemed to agree, that made the summon too dominant.
YMMV. If your campaign is very limited in wealth, may not be a problem. If your players want everything for themselves and only buy for their edilon with what is left over, it would probably be ok. If the summoner is making a scouting rather than fighting edilon, it might not cause problems. If master summoner that really is relying on masses of summon monster, then the edilon won't have as big of effect.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In one campaign, I'm currently playing a summoner, and the eidolon by itself is ripping enemies apart. With just three quick spells (which I can extend so some can last for up to 14 hours at this point) the eidolon gets an AC of 32 (at level 7...), four attacks, each of which deal greatsword damage, free grapples, free trips, and it has the highest Perception modifier of our entire party. Next level it'll upgrade to large and send its Strength score up to a whopping 27. 27! A ragining barbarian or an alchemist on improved mutagens would be LUCKY to get that high, even with magic items. Gods above, if i added a Belt of Giant's Strength to this monster the whole game wouldn't be a challenge.
Also, one quick thing of note, the eidolon doesn't need any help in the "I got this" department, but the Summoner himself does. No wizard is squishier than the Summoner class, which has too few spells per day to truly protect himself, has few combat abilities (even sorcerers get combat spells), and will become a traget for any enemy with an Intelligence over 8, because eventually someone's going to figure out that if you take out the guy with all of the flashy jewelry making all of those fancy hand-signs, the giant rampaging monster will go away. And unlike said monster, mister fancy-pants doesn't have the AC of an armored car on steroids. That said, it would be the smarter thing to use all of your expenses to make your Summoner capable of surviving that sort of attention while your eidolon mauls the hell out of the bad guys.
and will become a traget for any enemy with an Intelligence over 8, because eventually someone's going to figure out that if you take out the guy with all of the flashy jewelry making all of those fancy hand-signs, the giant rampaging monster will go away
Not really. All control of the eidolon can be telepathic. The only hint that the two are related is the rune on their head, and that can be covered with a hood. Even if they did see the rune, they wouldn't necessarily know it's a summoner unless they made some Knowledge (arcana) checks. And with how rare summoners are in the default setting...that's not going to be an easy check, so untrained people can't even make the check.
Personally I think its a funky design decision, but I can see why. Eiodolons are powerful enough.
I dont see what the arguement is though? Are you looking for arguements to take back to your DM to allow it? Looking for support to show him? A DM yourself and wondering if you should seperate them?
Its a rule. If you dont like it... Houserule it away. Then if that turns out to be too much of a power gain... talk to the player and refund him magic items and bring the original rule back.
The easiest method is to playtest it yourself and see. Because asking the forums will simply give you a billion different opinions (though I have a suspicion most will agree with the orginal rule).
I never had an issue with the shared slots rule. Mostly because I never happened upon enough treasure to ever fill my slots, but still. My eidolon was just fine on his own without enhancements. And then there's flight. Oh flight. My summoner was a halfling, so he was small enough to ride on my eidolon, who I gave a flight speed of 50 ft with perfect maneuverability. Good times, good times. :)
.....Really? Go do some research man. Apes (specifically gorillas, the default Ape for ACs) have opposable thumbs, like a rather large number of primates (all of which have thumbs, not all of which have opposable ones).
Do some more research yourself. Some apes do indeed have marginally opposable thumbs. But they don't oppose like human thumbs do. They can grab, pick up, and even clumsily toss large items like branches or rocks (or poo, which is a favorite of theirs), but they lack fine motor control and a true "grip" which is what allows humans to manipulate tools.
Also, apes are not bipedal, they use their "hands" for walking. They can only manage to walk on two legs for a very short time, which is another reason they find it difficult to carry and use "tools".
There is a reason that there is a debate in anthropology to this day about what was more important for human development, the brain or the hand. The latest I've seen seems to indicate that the hand drove the development of the brain.
Anyway, I've had this discussion on these boards before. Some people want to believe that apes should be able to wear armor and use human weapons. They trot out the "but apes have opposable thumbs!" argument like clockwork. But they don't understand the limitations that exist for grasping and manipulating items, and for walking on two legs.
Um, AD, I think you might be mistaken. There is an entire grouping of primates that have fully opposable thumbs, including humans, and all great apes. An Intelligent gorilla could certainly wield a weapon if desired and wear armor custom fitted to it (they don't even need to be Intelligence to wear armor). Likewise, Orangutans also have fully opposable thumbs. As well as several other species I believe.
I don't see how holding a sword or similar would greatly interfere with a gorilla's movement. Even I can move about on all fours while grasping the hilt of something in my hand (let's not get into why I know this... (>.>)" ). I see no reason an ape of sentient intelligence couldn't do it just as easily, if not more easily.
EDIT: It would be similar to Gorilla Grog from the DC comics, only not nearly as Intelligent (Grog is a genius Intelligence ape). He has frequently employed weapons, including guns against his enemies as needed, though he admittedly prefers beating the piss out of his enemies with a good ol' fashioned beatdown.
|
I never had an issue with the shared slots rule. Mostly because I never happened upon enough treasure to ever fill my slots, but still. My eidolon was just fine on his own without enhancements. And then there's flight. Oh flight. My summoner was a halfling, so he was small enough to ride on my eidolon, who I gave a flight speed of 50 ft with perfect maneuverability. Good times, good times. :)
+1
I have a halfling summoner in a RotRL campaign. As you said, the shared slots issue has not been a problem because we don't have enough gold.Only 1 more level until we can get the flight evolution...
Um, AD, I think you might be mistaken. There is an entire grouping of primates that have fully opposable thumbs, including humans, and all great apes. An Intelligent gorilla could certainly wield a weapon if desired and wear armor custom fitted to it (they don't even need to be Intelligence to wear armor). Likewise, Orangutans also have fully opposable thumbs. As well as several other species I believe.
I don't see how holding a sword or similar would greatly interfere with a gorilla's movement. Even I can move about on all fours while grasping the hilt of something in my hand (let's not get into why I know this... (>.>)" ). I see no reason an ape of sentient intelligence couldn't do it just as easily, if not more easily.
EDIT: It would be similar to Gorilla Grog from the DC comics, only not nearly as Intelligent (Grog is a genius Intelligence ape). He has frequently employed weapons, including guns against his enemies as needed, though he admittedly prefers beating the piss out of his enemies with a good ol' fashioned beatdown.
From a scientific book on the hand, written by Frank Wilson:
Chimps and monkeys, in fact, are quite good at bringing the thumb to the side of the index finger. What they don't do well (as Lucy herself could not do) is bring the thumb tip all the way across the hand to the fourth and fifth fingers. Also, neither the apes nor Lucy flex the fingers on the ulnar side of the hand (the side with the little finger) toward the base of the thumb in the movement known as "ulnar opposition." We humans do this without the slightest sense of marvel whenever we grasp the handle of a hammer, a golf club, or a tennis racket and prepare to take a swing.
This "bring the thumb tip all the way across the hand" coupled with "flex the little finger towards the base of the thumb" is how humans gain vastly increased dexterity and a strong "grip".
As I said above.
Play as you like, but don't be misled into thinking that human and ape hands are "almost the same." Physiologically a gorilla or chimpanzee trying to hold a sword would be like you attempting to hold a sword using nothing but your thumb and index finger.
UPDATE: "Lucy" in the quoted passage above is not Charlie Brown's playmate. It is a reference to the physiology of the "Australopithecus" fossil which is considered to have the most human like hand yet found in a non-human fossil, and even that hand was not able to grasp and grab like a human hand.
I never had an issue with the shared slots rule. Mostly because I never happened upon enough treasure to ever fill my slots, but still. My eidolon was just fine on his own without enhancements. And then there's flight. Oh flight. My summoner was a halfling, so he was small enough to ride on my eidolon, who I gave a flight speed of 50 ft with perfect maneuverability. Good times, good times. :)+1
I have a halfling summoner in a RotRL campaign. As you said, the shared slots issue has not been a problem because we don't have enough gold.
Only 1 more level until we can get the flight evolution...
the problem with RotRL is that most of the gear is either
evil
excessively oversized
or intended specifically for wizards.
|
|
I never had an issue with the shared slots rule. Mostly because I never happened upon enough treasure to ever fill my slots, but still. My eidolon was just fine on his own without enhancements. And then there's flight. Oh flight. My summoner was a halfling, so he was small enough to ride on my eidolon, who I gave a flight speed of 50 ft with perfect maneuverability. Good times, good times. :)+1
I have a halfling summoner in a RotRL campaign. As you said, the shared slots issue has not been a problem because we don't have enough gold.
Only 1 more level until we can get the flight evolution...
the problem with RotRL is that most of the gear is either
evil
excessively oversized
or intended specifically for wizards.
Eh, maybe, but Fenzle and Cheney are happy to be doing some good in the world. And perhaps we can become famous enough that people will stop referring to Cheney as "that...that thing".
Gorilla Grodd, Ashiel. Way to make your entire point invalid. And he's a genius level psionic ape.
|
the eidolon and summoner share items for a reason, you are expected to equip the summoner. the reason the eidolon doesn't have it's own set of item slots is because it gets such massive DPR bonuses, that the only real competition is the ALLCAPS builds. Such as AM BARBARIAN.
Summoner is not, and never was, the strongest class.
|
|
even nastier is either the synthesist or the master summoner. which take either the eidolon and make it an unkillable martial god or take the summons and make them even nastier.
As compared to the druid:
- full caster. . can cast without hands
. . can flood combat with summoned monsters
- near permanent beast shape III at 6th level
. . physical stats => summoner
. . 5+ attacks / round
. . pounce
. . Planer Wild Shape
. . can tailor form to the situation
- nasty companion while while shaped.
. . 5+ attacks / round
. . pounce
|
|
Another reason the summoner is balanced through shared items is to keep your summons from being completely unstoppable in melee.
An eidolon for a 7 th level summoner can already have a 32 AC. With the average CR 7 monster having at best a +14 to hit with their primary attack, you're looking at those creatures needing an 18-20 to hit an Eidolon optimized for tanking. Many creatures won't even have that chance. If the eidolon can wear an Amulet of Natural Armor and/or a Ring of Protection, your Eidolon can now only be hit on a crit by level appropriate monsters. It's the unprecedentedly high customability of the eidolon that makes it necessary to limit its access to magic items. The game needs to keep balance in mind not just for what the average player can do, but for what the optimized player can do. The summoner can already fulfill any role in the party as well or better than the classes intended for those roles (with the exception of healer, though he has ways to fill that role too if necessary), allowing him to fully gear out his eidolon only pushes other classes farther out of the picture. Why have a rogue when the summoner can send out his flying rogue replacement with no worry about a party member being put at undo risk? A few magic items and you've compensated for the eidolon's smaller pool of skill points. The same is true of most other roles.
|
|
@Artanthos
The druid is still not going to have an animal companion that can out-Rogue the Rogue and out-tank the tank. Druid may be able to trump the Summoner in pure DPR (maybe depending on the builds you're looking at) but she'll never match the Summoners role versatility.
And as to the damage:
Why Master Summoner?
1) Standard action summoning. That's huge.
2) 2 extra uses of the summon monster SLA per day. This doesn't seem like much until you apply Superior Summons to it, in which case it's about...9 extra monsters per day, if you downgrade to a level 2 lower.
3) Can have multiple instances of the ability out at a time.
4) Minute per level duration.
5) Free Augment Summoning at level 2, opening up the level 3 feat for Superior Summons.
The Summon Monster SLA is the most powerful ability of the summoner. This just makes it more powerful.
Consider this:
The master summoner at level 9 is able to get 1d4+2 lantern archons per use. At this point, they'll probably have...13? uses of the ability per day. Spend three rounds summoning them before combat, and you have barely hurt your reservoir. But you now have 3d4+6 Lantern Archons, for an average of 13.5 lantern archons. Each doing that sweet, sweet DR ignoring touch attack damage. If they all hit with their touch attacks, that's 94.5 damage.
And oh dear, you only have 10 summon monster SLAs remaining.
For more fun, consider celestial lions.
|
|
In one campaign, I'm currently playing a summoner, and the eidolon by itself is ripping enemies apart. With just three quick spells (which I can extend so some can last for up to 14 hours at this point) the eidolon gets an AC of 32 (at level 7...), four attacks, each of which deal greatsword damage, free grapples, free trips, and it has the highest Perception modifier of our entire party. Next level it'll upgrade to large and send its Strength score up to a whopping 27. 27! A ragining barbarian or an alchemist on improved mutagens would be LUCKY to get that high, even with magic items. Gods above, if i added a Belt of Giant's Strength to this monster the whole game wouldn't be a challenge.
Druid: lvl 8 (your reference point)
. 18 starting. +2 level increase
. +6 beast form III
. +4 bull strength
. 5 attacks/round with pounce.
. ina: bite
. strong jaw
. planar wild shape
Druid Melee Combat
. 30 strength
. Melee
. . Talon x2 +16 (4d6+18/20/x2)
. . Bite +16 (4d6+18/20/x2)
. . Claw x2 +16 (2d6+18/20/x2)
. . Pounce
. Dire Tiger (strong jaw + bull strength, ina: bite)
. . Bite +13 (4d6+8/20/x2)
. . Claw x2 +13 (2d6+8/20/x2)
. . Rake +13 (2d6/20/x2)
. . Grab (CMB 13)
. . Pounce
I'll also be taking Combat Reflexes + Outflank on both the druid and the animal companion. Technically you could on the summoner as well, if you think he'll survive in melee.
Both the animal companion and the druid can wear +1 keen Amulets of Mighty Fists. The summoner + eidolon can use only a single neck slot item.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That there exists an existing powerful option does not excuse other powerful options.
Not if they aren't causing problems at the game table.
I do find it quite amusing that just about every single comparison to druids always uses Lion or Tiger. Never any of the more commonly chosen animal companions, or with even the barest inkling of a thought towards selecting a domain. No, they must always use the most powerful choices to make the comparison. Almost seems more of an issue of the disparity between the baseline animal companion and the lion / tiger.
|
|
And as noted earlier, a same level Eidolon spec'd for melee and able to wear magic items would destroy your Dire Tiger as it would only be hitting said eidolon on 20's. Thus bringing this back to the original point of the thread i.e. why summoners have the shared items limitation.
And while said eidolon is eating your tiger for breakfast, the summoner is probably buffing and dropping the druid and other opposing party members down pits.
|
|
Not if they aren't causing problems at the game table.
I do find it quite amusing that just about every single comparison to druids always uses Lion or Tiger. Never any of the more commonly chosen animal companions, or with even the barest inkling of a thought towards selecting a domain. No, they must always use the most powerful choices to make the comparison. Almost seems more of an issue of the disparity between the baseline animal companion and the lion / tiger.
1. The companion is only doing half the damages the druid is.
2. I can produce equally high damage using a non-cat companion. The cat is chosen for reliability, not the highest damage potential.
Several companions allow me to throw a 24d6 vital strike at level 7.
Alternately, my companion could be using an 8d6 Great Cleave at level 7.
The druid could leagally be performing an 8d6 whirlwind attack with a 15' reach at level 7.
3. When the complaint is that optimized class A is too powerful, you compare to optimized classes B, C and D. It is the only fair comparison.
4. I'm not even touching min-maxed multiclassing. Consider the effect of adding alchemist and barbaian splashes. You could easily break 42 Strength by level 10 if willing to sacrifice spell progression.
|
|
Not if they aren't causing problems at the game table.
I do find it quite amusing that just about every single comparison to druids always uses Lion or Tiger. Never any of the more commonly chosen animal companions, or with even the barest inkling of a thought towards selecting a domain. No, they must always use the most powerful choices to make the comparison. Almost seems more of an issue of the disparity between the baseline animal companion and the lion / tiger.
1. The companion is only doing half the damages the druid is.
2. I can produce equally high damage using a non-cat companion. The cat is chosen for reliability, not the highest damage potential.
Several companions allow me to throw a 24d6 vital strike at level 7.
Alternately, my companion could be using an 8d6 Great Cleave at level 7.
The druid could leagally be performing an 8d6 whirlwind attack with a 15' reach at level 7.
3. When the complaint is that optimized class A is too powerful, you compare to optimized classes B, C and D. It is the only fair comparison.
4. I'm not even touching min-maxed multiclassing. Consider the effect of adding alchemist and barbaian splashes. You could easily break 42 Strength by level 10 if willing to sacrifice spell progression.
I notice you keep completely avoiding the point that your oober kitty can't touch the eidolon without a natural 20. You can pile on damage all day long, that's not really proving or disproving balance; Your kitty can still be killed, as can your druid, while the eidolon keeps right on rolling. Damage is neither the be-all nor end-all for determining balance or viability of a class. You can come up with ungodly damage builds all day long for most classes. It's the viability and utility of your character over an entire adventuring day that determines where the chips fall, and where the summoner goes completely out of whack if you equip your eidolon with your share of the dragon's horde.
|
|
And as noted earlier, a same level Eidolon spec'd for melee and able to wear magic items would destroy your Dire Tiger as it would only be hitting said eidolon on 20's. Thus bringing this back to the original point of the thread i.e. why summoners have the shared items limitation.
And while said eidolon is eating your tiger for breakfast, the summoner is probably buffing and dropping the druid and other opposing party members down pits.
1. I'm a huge creature. 15'x15' base. Your pit is 10'x10'
2. I'm going to pounce on you; I double my pets DPR. The druid (not counting the animal companion) matches or exceeds a synthesist in nearly every way at this level range. The AC is simply a bonus.
3. By 7th level creatures start to fly. So do characters.
4. If you want to brag about your CC abilities, go talk to the wizard. Let me know how that works out.
5. You're moving towards character vs. character, which was not the focus of the discussion. Summoners are not good in character vs character. The eidolon will be ignored. Neither the druid nor the tiger will ever swing at the eidolon.
|
|
My point is that while you and your tiger are full attacking, they're still vulnerable to other attacks. The eidolon never is. I'm going to leave before I sink any furthter into this childish "My build is better than yours because I say so" nonsense. The point I originally tried to make was, your druid can be spec'd out to be as big a damage dealing monster as you can squeeze out of it, and that's great. But a summoner can do almost anything with his Eidolon, and that steps up to functionally everything if you remove the limitation on what items an eidolon can use. Rein in your desire to prove that your druid has the largest member long enough to actually address the issue at hand.
And because I'm petty, my Master Summoner and his friends will still see you and your tiger out behind the school yard after lunch any day of the week.
|
I played a summoner in PFS and got to level 11 with several fears of death but never had the summoner die. Several times, especially early on, the eidolon was taken out but as he is a renewable resource, he always comes back the next day if not later from the spell that summons him as at 1/2 hp.
I would have liked to throw a few items on both of them in the same slot but it was never a super big deal being restricted from such. That was with a gnome summoner who I had no intention of ever getting into mellee with accept to set up a flank or use aid another. As a gnome, small with a str penalty, I never imagined him being much of a damage dealer himself. Still, it would have been nice to buy a belt of con for the summoner and belt of str/con for the eidolon. Same thing goes for the clock of resistance. Instead, I had to give the summoner the ioun stone that boosts con at double the cost.
Now I am doing a mellee combat summoner herself, as in she actually gets close to the enermy and swings a weapon on a regular basis herself. Makes me wish more that I could buy belts for both of them but I will see how it turns out later, she is still only 5th level.
I'm just going to add in that the inability to have a cloak of resistance on both the summoner and eidolon at high levels can hopelessly cripple you, that is the one reason why I hate the item restriction. I swear, my Eidolon spent half of his existence from level 16-20 being feared or banished because of his horrible saves.
Though, I guess you can get around this by having the summoner wear a Robe of the Archmagi and the Eidolon wear the Cloak of Resistance. I wish I had thought of this at the time actually. Still, that's a lot of money on top of trying to afford a good Amulet of Might Fists....