I've noticed a lot of locked threads of late. Starts to get interesting, people are posting back and forth, and then they get closed down.
This is on locked threads, what has been locked and your comments on those threads... and the locking itself I suppose.
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In your own space you can say what you like, but it's Paizo's house; they just let you chat in it (though it is frustrating at times).
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I'll just say that people have very different definitions of what is "interesting" and where those threads fall on that spectrum and leave it at that.
Senior Software Developer
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I don't have the statistics in front of me but I don't think there's been an uptick in thread locking recently. It's true, we did lock one or two threads going into PaizoCon because there's no way we were going to sit around babysitting a bunch of poo-flinging that didn't need to be happening on our site anyway. And that's usually the reason off-topic threads get locked—grar levels rising, people getting hurt feelings, typing stuff into the little box that they wouldn't say to each other's actual human face, that sort of thing.
In other forums, particularly the rules forums, there's a kind of emergent thread behavior that can happen when two or three people start talking past each other and saying "no, you don't understand" for hundreds of posts. And the discussion turns into an argument, or gets all fractal and ends up with tendrils into dozens of semi-related topics and the whole thing snowballs into a discussion that I bet 99% of readers can't tell what the heck is being discussed and how did it get from there to here anyway, and it's completely uninteresting for everybody else on the site except the participants. Sometimes the developers will ask us to lock those kinds of threads.
And those threads we tend to let running for a pretty long time before pulling the plug, because we don't want to be all "every thread everywhere needs to remain on topic." But sometimes people are just going to disagree about something, and that's OK, but sometimes I wish people would realize they're not going to agree, and not view a conversation as something to be won.
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Personally, I think the level of moderation is spot on (both with regard to the number of threads which get locked and to the number of posts which are deleted).
It's annoying to post on a forum where the slightest bit of controversy gets shut down. However, I suspect it's even more annoying to post on a forum where anything goes.
Personally, I think the level of moderation is spot on (both with regard to the number of threads which get locked and to the number of posts which are deleted).
Agreed.
Another thread I was on, locked. This time on alignment, because it also discussed politics. It was a thread on alignment and how you defined it. Urgh!
It happened again!
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Another thread I was on, locked. This time on alignment, because it also discussed politics. It was a thread on alignment and how you defined it. Urgh!
It happened again!
WHO DARES TO DISTURB MY TWO WEEK SLUMBER!?
Another thread I was on, locked. This time on alignment, because it also discussed politics. It was a thread on alignment and how you defined it. Urgh!
It happened again!
I don't think there's been up upswing in locked threads, but maybe you just happen to be heavily involved in those few threads that do get locked... Probably just a coincidence, though.
Lol, it wasn't my comment that got it closed, I was just mainly lurking. As for the defence that there isn't an upswing in locked threads, wonder how many more locked threads will bring me back here, by way of reminder?
Lol, it wasn't my comment that got it closed, I was just mainly lurking. As for the defence that there isn't an upswing in locked threads, wonder how many more locked threads will bring me back here, by way of reminder?
The only reason it would seem like there's more locked threads than usual is because someone will be calling attention to each of them, where before they were simply getting locked and folks were moving on with their lives.
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3.5 loyalist, I see you in many threads that are often heated. You specifically mentioned an alignment thread. Go back and look at the threads you were in and see if many of them are the kinds that generate heated discussions. I'm willing to bet that there is a correlation. It's one reason why I stay away from certain threads.
...grar levels rising...
I'm stealing that for a new catchphrase.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Another thread I was on, locked. This time on alignment, because it also discussed politics. It was a thread on alignment and how you defined it. Urgh!
It happened again!
Sometimes threads are derailed so badly that we think the likelihood of them getting back on track is lower than the likelihood that a whole new thread will stay on track.
:/
Except that doesn't work for when a thread is on track, and gets locked. As with the example that bought me back here.
Another one locked. High number of posters, lot of points. Locked.
Tsk tsk, can anyone have a discussion around here? Or does disagreement summon the Lock.
Yar!
Here's an idea: instead of simply posting here "again! a thread got locked!" and nothing else, how about you post a link to the thread in question so that we can communally investigate the thread in question and see for ourselves that it either:
a) was in the middle of a valid, on-topic discussion with no apparent reason for locking, or
b) was filled with off topic ranting, arguments, hate-mongering, or the like.
Because in my experience here, discussions and disagreements between posters are fine, provided both parties can disagree and discuss their disagreements maturely and respectfully. It's usually when the respect and/or maturity wanes is there threat of thread locking, and justifiably so. This is paizo's website, and it is their right to moderate it's content.
But if you truly want to help / get inside insight / be a contributing member of this messageboard's community / feel confident in your ability to post and lurk without hindrance because of your familiarity with the rules of the boards and how the moderators moderate / anything else like this that is above and beyond simply posting for the sake of posting and stirring things up / making posts have have a beneficial impact to this site and the community here at large ... I highly recommend giving us more information, as detailed and unbiased as possible, with (in this case) links to the offending locked threads so we can all see what is actually going on.
~P
Yar!
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pt09&page=1?Horrible-and-terrible-stuff-in -games-how
If you want to back their locking of discussions over and over, well I find that a curious position for a "pirate" to hold.
Are you a pirate, or a paizo moderator defender?
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He might be a privateer or a corsair, duh.
Also, haven't you noticed the pattern that your presence increases the chance of thread lock?
It's certainly some conspiracy.
Somewhere deep in Paizo's raptor den, the nefarious plot against those loyal to 3.5 is taking up speed.
Dark winds, ill tidings. Sinister whispers...
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Looking at the thread linked, Liz pretty much sums it up. This was well beyond "one disagreement" and well into the realm of berating people for not being as voracious of a gore-hound as you. That thread pretty much had run its course and then some. It was time for it to go.
In addendum. I can't speak 100% for Paizo as I don't work there, but I'm pretty sure they don't just trawl around the forums looking for threads to lock. They've said before, repeatedly, that forum maintenance and moderation is a secondary duty compared to the normal day-to-day musts of their job. This is the primary reason the flag system was invented - to track down and pinpoint troublesome posts.
From my impression, when a thread is flagged, it brings up a notice somewhere on a mod's control panel or profile, directing their attention to the thread. From the fact that not every post I've flagged - intentionally or accidentally - has been instantly deleted, I'm going to call it safe to assume Gary/Liz/Chris/etc. at least gives the post itself and its immediate context a cursory read-over before bringing out the delete hatchet. If they deem the offending post off-topic or insulting enough, it goes, simple as that. Where locking threads appears to come in is, as Vic said, when the issue has become too large or too overwhelming for a few small deletes to rectify, and it's simpler and more logical to call the whole thread a lost cause.
So if you really want to fling blame around for threads getting locked, probably the most appropriate person to blame is whoever's doing things to get multiple people to flag multiples of their posts in one location.
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99% of the time, I personally feel a thread is locked for good reason--and often in fact feel relieved or grateful when it happens.
Every once in a GREAT while, I've had the sense that a derailed thread was getting back on track and the conversation was getting constructive again, but usually there's one idiot who keeps beating the dead horse of derailment, and because of that one idiot, the thread gets locked, because the admins' patience has run out and are tired of having to trawl the thread to delete all of the idiot's posts. And it's a shame when that happens, but I don't blame the admins for hitting that point, they're only human after all.
My personal inclination is to protest the existence of the idiots, trolls, and asshats who wouldn't know how to have a civil or decent intellectual argument or discussion if you hit them over the head with one, not the threadlocking itself. Threads wouldn't be locked if people could learn to concede an argument when they're proven wrong, respect others' differing opinions where the subject matter is subjective, or learn that the point of discussion is not in fact to have the discussion end in, "I'm sorry, idiot-man! You are right about everything, and I shall agree with you wholeheartedly on everything you say henceforth!" Some people are SO OBSESSED with being right, that will go to great lengths in making themselves look like idiots with all the social grace of a slime covered rock to prove just how "right" they are. They go through threads, looking for quotes they can take out of context to spin them toward their arguments, people get pissed off at being misinterpreted, or another "pathologically needs to be right" asshat takes on the other POV, and things get ugly.
Sorry, that appears to have turned into a rant.
Anyway, I'm sorry threads have to be locked, but it is not the admins' fault those threads get so awful and mean (and certainly not "interesting" at all in my opinion).
He might be a privateer or a corsair, duh.
Also, haven't you noticed the pattern that your presence increases the chance of thread lock?
It's certainly some conspiracy.
Somewhere deep in Paizo's raptor den, the nefarious plot against those loyal to 3.5 is taking up speed.
Dark winds, ill tidings. Sinister whispers...
Yeah, dropped charisma by a further point.
Offending people is easy, especially on the internet.
Closing thread is easy (the mods do it a lot).
Shutting down discussions is easy.
Should it be done? I don't think so.
A flag? Oh no! People got offended by contrary views and disagreement. What an utter, common whine (as a few comedians have pointed out).
More on locked threads soon, when I find another good discussion between posters shut down because somebody got offended.
:)
Offending people is easy, especially on the internet.
Closing thread is easy (the mods do it a lot).
Shutting down discussions is easy.
Should it be done? I don't think so.
Good thing this isn't your house then.
":)"
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Offending people is easy, especially on the internet.
Closing thread is easy (the mods do it a lot).
Shutting down discussions is easy.
Should it be done? I don't think so.
A flag? Oh no! People got offended by contrary views and disagreement. What an utter, common whine (as a few comedians have pointed out).
More on locked threads soon, when I find another good discussion between posters shut down because somebody got offended.
Obviously (as a vociferous poster on the other side of that discussion) I was interested in it continuing. However, it was clearly going in circles - something which doesn't bug me but is apparently unpopular. I don't really see why it matters if two people want to go on and on rehashing something, but if its against the rules, it's against the rules.
Having said that, I don't think it's fair to say they close threads "a lot", nor that the reason is that "someone got offended".
It's worth remembering that message boards are not public forums and they're not democracies.
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For me, I find less that I run into locked threads, as much as I have the ability to inadvertently coup de grace threads by showing up.
Also, I seem to be the primary STOP HAVING FUN magnet because I'm something of a shameless Smutty McSmuttynaughtyson, and sharing my joy is frowned upon on the boards due to things being kept more generally PG-13 at worst, barring invocation of ogres and Things That They Do™.
It means that I probably haven't yet found the Sooper Seekrit Handshake to get to the back club rooms where such things are discussed. Which means I have to behave, or Someone Who Will Be Unreferenced will swoop in and delete the picture links I put forth.
Also!
[hijack]
Hey Mikaze, did I ever tell you about that time I wrote a fic involving Ardovia and a kyton? Good times.
[/hijack]
For me, I find less that I run into locked threads, as much as I have the ability to inadvertently coup de grace threads by showing up.
Also, I seem to be the primary STOP HAVING FUN magnet because I'm something of a shameless Smutty McSmuttynaughtyson, and sharing my joy is frowned upon on the boards due to things being kept more generally PG-13 at worst, barring invocation of ogres and Things That They Do™.
It means that I probably haven't yet found the Sooper Seekrit Handshake to get to the back club rooms where such things are discussed. Which means I have to behave, or Someone Who Will Be Unreferenced will swoop in and delete the picture links I put forth.
Also!
[hijack]
Hey Mikaze, did I ever tell you about that time I wrote a fic involving Ardovia and a kyton? Good times.
[/hijack]
We will have to compare our coup de grace techniques.
For me, I find less that I run into locked threads, as much as I have the ability to inadvertently coup de grace threads by showing up.
Also, I seem to be the primary STOP HAVING FUN magnet because I'm something of a shameless Smutty McSmuttynaughtyson, and sharing my joy is frowned upon on the boards due to things being kept more generally PG-13 at worst, barring invocation of ogres and Things That They Do™.
It means that I probably haven't yet found the Sooper Seekrit Handshake to get to the back club rooms where such things are discussed. Which means I have to behave, or Someone Who Will Be Unreferenced will swoop in and delete the picture links I put forth.
Also!
[hijack]
Hey Mikaze, did I ever tell you about that time I wrote a fic involving Ardovia and a kyton? Good times.
[/hijack]
The tyranny of the flaggers.
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*waits for this thread to get locked*
*That would be too ironic*
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The tyranny of the flaggers.For me, I find less that I run into locked threads, as much as I have the ability to inadvertently coup de grace threads by showing up.
Also, I seem to be the primary STOP HAVING FUN magnet because I'm something of a shameless Smutty McSmuttynaughtyson, and sharing my joy is frowned upon on the boards due to things being kept more generally PG-13 at worst, barring invocation of ogres and Things That They Do™.
It means that I probably haven't yet found the Sooper Seekrit Handshake to get to the back club rooms where such things are discussed. Which means I have to behave, or Someone Who Will Be Unreferenced will swoop in and delete the picture links I put forth.
Also!
[hijack]
Hey Mikaze, did I ever tell you about that time I wrote a fic involving Ardovia and a kyton? Good times.
[/hijack]
Paizo has rules for how people behave in their private property, which is this message board. You can call enforcing those rules "tyranny" if it makes you feel better, but it's likely not going to stop them from having those rules. There is certainly no "tyranny" of anyone who is following the rules and flagging posts when they see ones that break them. And if you dislike places with rules and people who follow them and work toward others following them, then my advice is not to let the door hit you on the ass on your way out.
Paizo has rules for how people behave in their private property, which is this message board. You can call enforcing those rules "tyranny" if it makes you feel better, but it's likely not going to stop them from having those rules. There is certainly no "tyranny" of anyone who is following the rules and flagging posts when they see ones that break them. And if you dislike places with rules and people who follow them and work toward others following them, then my advice is not to let the door hit you on the ass on your way out.The tyranny of the flaggers.For me, I find less that I run into locked threads, as much as I have the ability to inadvertently coup de grace threads by showing up.
Also, I seem to be the primary STOP HAVING FUN magnet because I'm something of a shameless Smutty McSmuttynaughtyson, and sharing my joy is frowned upon on the boards due to things being kept more generally PG-13 at worst, barring invocation of ogres and Things That They Do™.
It means that I probably haven't yet found the Sooper Seekrit Handshake to get to the back club rooms where such things are discussed. Which means I have to behave, or Someone Who Will Be Unreferenced will swoop in and delete the picture links I put forth.
Also!
[hijack]
Hey Mikaze, did I ever tell you about that time I wrote a fic involving Ardovia and a kyton? Good times.
[/hijack]
Yeah yeah, another defender of the status quo.
Keep on posting, and some of your discussions you are really into will be cut short. Perhaps that will reinforce your stance further?
You want me gone? I am not gone, and you don't have that power.
I will keep an eye out for you though, as I find your picture of the frowning petulant person, and your stance, hilarious.
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And you missed the point completely. Well done.
We don't necessarily want you gone. We just want you to stop breaking the forum's first rule - "Don't be a jerk".
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G$~!+%MIT DON'T MAKE ME TURN THIS CAR AROUND
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And you missed the point completely. Well done.
We don't necessarily want you gone. We just want you to stop breaking the forum's first rule - "Don't be a jerk".
At the risk of seeming as though I'm encouraging that sort of thing/agreeing outright...
There's a rather delicate interplay between peoples perceptions and interplay and the nature of the Series of Tubes, that results in people having differing interpretations of where the 'jerk' line is. Personally, I can find someone to be unpleasant, without thinking them to be a jerk. I find many people to occupy varying degrees of pleasantness, vis a vis my interests and fixations, and I can disagree with them without finding them to be disagreeable.
On the flipside, I don't entirely approve of echo-chambered group-think, even with people whom with I am predominantly in agreement on nearly any and all things. I have no problems with dissenting, or being the lone dissenter in a love-fest on, say, Joss Whedon, or J. Michael Straczynski. I have no qualms about stating my displeasure about things, while trying to refrain from demonizing those who enjoy the object of my ire, or even what might change my mind about the offending items/things.
There are a number of people, I'm certain, who find me to be a smug, smarmy, diffident, arrogant jackass, to put it mildly. I'm equally convinced there are plenty that think of me as a jerk.
I'm more than capable of being a jerk, at times - I don't think I AM one. I'm hoping that I'm not the only one who sees the distinction, or the ramifications it holds on board conduct. Particularly, I hope that the people who are responsible for policing the boards don't fall onto the exceedingly sensitive side of things, even the previously implied 'Stop Having Fun' person of frequent euphemization.
Not that I'd mind starting my own forum, it's the overhead that's a hassle.
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That's personally where I find the ignore script to be of immense usefulness. It allows people to remove those who bother or irritate them individually but aren't crossing over any official lines that would require larger-scale moderator intervention.
That said, we are talking about someone whose complaint revolves around numerous conversations he has been involved in being shut down. After a certain point it should become obvious to look at the connecting link between the sources of complaint and that in turn begs the question of whether or not he's truly as innocent a victim as he likes to portray himself. Personally, I ain't buying it.
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Paizo has rules for how people behave in their private property, which is this message board. You can call enforcing those rules "tyranny" if it makes you feel better, but it's likely not going to stop them from having those rules. There is certainly no "tyranny" of anyone who is following the rules and flagging posts when they see ones that break them. And if you dislike places with rules and people who follow them and work toward others following them, then my advice is not to let the door hit you on the ass on your way out.The tyranny of the flaggers.For me, I find less that I run into locked threads, as much as I have the ability to inadvertently coup de grace threads by showing up.
Also, I seem to be the primary STOP HAVING FUN magnet because I'm something of a shameless Smutty McSmuttynaughtyson, and sharing my joy is frowned upon on the boards due to things being kept more generally PG-13 at worst, barring invocation of ogres and Things That They Do™.
It means that I probably haven't yet found the Sooper Seekrit Handshake to get to the back club rooms where such things are discussed. Which means I have to behave, or Someone Who Will Be Unreferenced will swoop in and delete the picture links I put forth.
Also!
[hijack]
Hey Mikaze, did I ever tell you about that time I wrote a fic involving Ardovia and a kyton? Good times.
[/hijack]
Yeah yeah, another defender of the status quo.
Keep on posting, and some of your discussions you are really into will be cut short. Perhaps that will reinforce your stance further?
You want me gone? I am not gone, and you don't have that power.
I will keep an eye out for you though, as I find your picture of the frowning petulant person, and your stance, hilarious.
I don't want you gone (or to stay; I don't care either way). And I don't want to have the power that would make you or anyone else gone, as I'd be likely to abuse it. ;)
If you stop, take a breath, and reread, you will see I am suggesting that if you dislike how Paizo handles its private property, you will remain unhappy here, because they are unlikely to change how they handle things. Yes, this is the status quo for this board. It is one established by Paizo, because they own this place (and can shut it down at any time). Only they have the power to change it, "defenders" or detractors be damned. But yes, I do defend it, because in my perception and opinion, it is a status quo that encourages discourse and respect rather than ultimately nonproductive bickering, and I am proud of my defending that. I am aware your perceptions are different, vastly enough that it's unlikely we'll see eye to eye, and that is what it is. That said, if I disliked the status quo here, I wouldn't be here.
And thus, given the circumstances, I am therefore suggesting as a corollary that you may be happier if you choose stomping grounds that suit your preferences better, and the sooner you find them, the better, for your own sake. If my vulgar but concise wording undercut the intention there, I apologize.
If you prefer to be miserable and angry, however, by all means, remain miserable and angry. That's your choice.
And I and my fierce would-be murderer of Dr. Lucky are always happy to entertain. :)
And have a lovely day, 3.5 Loyalist. If message board discussions and some fairly basic and common message board practices get you this worked up, I hope the rest of your life is more satisfying at least. :)
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To reiterate the statements by Gary and Vic, the reasons that threads are locked are generally because it's gotten to the point of no return, or it violates forum rules. There is a point at which some conversations are no longer productive, but instead become aggressive. Moderation is an addendum to some staff members jobs and it is impossible to make all parties happy all of the time. There is no malice, personal vendetta or trickery behind moderator decisions, and if you feel that there is an egregious issue, we will explain or answer questions via this forum or email.
And you missed the point completely. Well done.
We don't necessarily want you gone. We just want you to stop breaking the forum's first rule - "Don't be a jerk".
I think locking threads when people are trying to post is jerk behaviour. In that it inconveniences and shuts down debates.
That's personally where I find the ignore script to be of immense usefulness. It allows people to remove those who bother or irritate them individually but aren't crossing over any official lines that would require larger-scale moderator intervention.
That said, we are talking about someone whose complaint revolves around numerous conversations he has been involved in being shut down. After a certain point it should become obvious to look at the connecting link between the sources of complaint and that in turn begs the question of whether or not he's truly as innocent a victim as he likes to portray himself. Personally, I ain't buying it.
I am not some innocent victim or claiming to be so.
The threads I have seen locked, are not all threads I have posted in.
Sometimes I want to dive in... "oh it's locked, another one. Wonderful".
Which means someone has quickly gone for the flag button (some threads don't even last two pages) and the mods have obliged with locking it all down.
To reiterate the statements by Gary and Vic, the reasons that threads are locked are generally because it's gotten to the point of no return, or it violates forum rules. There is a point at which some conversations are no longer productive, but instead become aggressive. Moderation is an addendum to some staff members jobs and it is impossible to make all parties happy all of the time. There is no malice, personal vendetta or trickery behind moderator decisions, and if you feel that there is an egregious issue, we will explain or answer questions via this forum or email.
The point of no return? No. I've seen threads getting back on the rails, after asides and smaller discussions, and then they get shut down. The point of return was already in motion, and heading back. There was no passing of the Event Horizon with everyone's eyes bleeding and the thread ship totally lost.
Productive? The very common situation is one side carrying an argument, setting their positions, making points, then someone gets offended and then it all gets locked. Locking isn't productive at all.
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The point of no return? No. I've seen threads getting back on the rails, after asides and smaller discussions, and then they get shut down. The point of return was already in motion, and heading back. There was no passing of the Event Horizon with everyone's eyes bleeding and the thread ship totally lost.Productive? The very common situation is one side carrying an argument, setting their positions, making points, then someone gets offended and then it all gets locked. Locking isn't productive at all.
In your completely unbiased opinion correct? I often ask myself why you even post. Do you just enjoy conflict? Because I don't think I've ever seen you in a thread that wasn't how should I say a war zone. Yes I think that's an apt description. So much flame being used it requires its on warning sign.
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FFS
What we had in that last thread was not "one side carrying an argument, setting their positions, making points, then someone gets offended and then it all gets locked." It was one person going in circles and continuing to go out of their way to take potshots at how other people play their games.
Look, this has been a pattern of behavior that has been playing out ever since your debut in the prduct discussion for Elves of Golarion. You get something that gets up your craw and you just obsess over it to the point of poisoning whatever larger discussion it may be taking place in. I've been told that the Jade Regent forum as a whole was becoming downright miserable and toxic because you just would not get over your grief with a certain NPC. Everyone just had to know that you detested that aspect of that AP. You had to skew damn near every discussion towards your distaste.
This is what we had in that thread:
You : I like X because Y is nerf swords.
Damn Near Everyone Else :
You: I like X because Y is nerf swords.
Damn Near Everyone Else : >:(
edit-*Or actually Liz Courts. Either way, they've been forced into the role of Damerrich far more often than they'd probably pre-Oh wow actually that sounds awesome now.
That is what bugs people.
I mean hey, there are a lot of things I don't like. But I don't needle people that like those things incessantly and call it discussion.
Most folks probably don't want you gone, but they sure as hell would likely appreciate a bit more self-awareness and consideration for fellow posters.
Hey Mikaze, did I ever tell you about that time I wrote a fic involving Ardovia and a kyton? Good times.
Oh God that whole discussion just came flooding back.
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In a world
Where threads are locked
One man stands alone
Mainly because he is shaking his head slowly
At terrible threads
Lamontius: The Lamontening
Coming
Summer 2013