I understand that with deep study (INT) one will learn how to cast a given spell. I also understand that countless hours of meditation (wisdom) will make you develop a strong relation with a deity and grant you new spells. But I fail to see how is possible that being attractive (charisma) determine how powerful your spells are?
How saving thru works in this case? A character attacks me with a fireball but I am so distracted looking her short skirt that my saving thru will be based on her looks?
So I wonder: why sorcerers use charisma instead of something else like wisdom?
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
|
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
Charisma isn't just attractiveness, it's you sense of self-worth, your force of personality, and how well you can convince others of things. You can be ugly yet have a high Charisma as your words inflame crowds to action - the 1e description of the stat listed Julius Caesar, Napoleon, and Hitler as examples of a very high Charisma who were not really very good looking.
So sorcerers cast using their personal self-confidence and magnetism.
|
charisma is not just looks.
Charisma (Cha)Charisma measures a character's personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance. It is the most important ability for paladins, sorcerers, and bards. It is also important for clerics, since it affects their ability to channel energy. For undead creatures, Charisma is a measure of their unnatural “lifeforce.” Every creature has a Charisma score. A character with a Charisma score of 0 is not able to exert himself in any way and is unconscious.
You apply your character's Charisma modifier to:
Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform, and Use Magic Device checks.
Checks that represent attempts to influence others.
Channel energy DCs for clerics and paladins attempting to harm undead foes.Bards, paladins, and sorcerers gain a number of bonus spells based on their Charisma scores. The minimum Charisma score needed to cast a bard, paladin, or sorcerer spell is 10 + the spell's level.
It is a measure of the strength of their personality and control of their "self". Those with sorcerous magic have lots of power in them that needs to be controlled, and no insight or intellect can help with that. It their understanding of themselves and the ability to manipulate that.
Charisma isn't necessarily attractiveness. It's more force of self and strength of personality. A Sorcerer draws upon their own essence, their personal magnitude and strong willpower to fuel their magic.
Wow... so many ninjas...
charisma is not just looks.
It is a measure of the strength of their personality and control of their "self".
THE PSRD just says: Charisma measures a character's personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance
Actually WISDOM says: Wisdom describes a character's willpower
I'd like to point out Sorcerers tend to actually get their spells and abilities from their blood (force of self, and whatever.) They don't just study it, they are just born with it usually. Took me reading Order of the Stick: Start of Darkness to actually realize that.
On a related note, make's me question the flavor of the sorcerer class. What would happen if you did have magic blood flowing through someone, yet they chose to pursue, say: the way of the Fighter? The study of the Wizard? The Nature-loving Druid? What happens to that magical blood?
Make's me wonder what it would be like if that were true and certain characters actually had innate magical powers even if, say, they were a fighter. Some of their abilities also make me question if they should be a 3/4 BAB class instead of 1/2 BAB (Draconic Bloodline, bloodlines that give natural attacks0.
willpower is not the same as force of personality.
Charisma is your sense of self.
Your Id.
You.
It's everything that makes you not an emotionless automaton.
I'd like to point out Sorcerers tend to actually get their spells and abilities from their blood
So you think that the definition of charisma should be expanded to included something like: "natural traits or feats"?
Marthian, that's almost exactly what the Eldritch Heritage line of feats is meant to represent.
Minus spells.
For a perfect example of charisma =/= attractiveness see Steve Buscemi's portrayal of Enoch Thompson in Boardwalk Empire.
I am not saying that charisma is just looks. What I am saying is that there is no mention of it being "natural magical traits" also!
Cause it isn't for everyone. That's pretty much exclusively the Sorcerer and Bard's schtick, plus Paladins and Oracles who are divinely-empowered but also use force of presence and personality to project their divine essence.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
charisma is not just looks.
It is a measure of the strength of their personality and control of their "self".
THE PSRD just says: Charisma measures a character's personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance
Actually WISDOM says: Wisdom describes a character's willpower
Using that logic, Strength has nothing to do with the ability to swing a sword better just because it doesn't say so in the first sentence of the description.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'd explain it as Paladins and Oracles are chosen by their deity for their personalities and strength of character. Clerics choose their deities through what their wisdom tells them. Meanwhile, Sorcerers and bards just are possessed of this talent, which is expressed through force of personality.
Using that logic, Strength has nothing to do with the ability to swing a sword better just because it doesn't say so in the first sentence of the description.charisma is not just looks.
It is a measure of the strength of their personality and control of their "self".
THE PSRD just says: Charisma measures a character's personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance
Actually WISDOM says: Wisdom describes a character's willpower
But in RL u need streght to actually handle the sword!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
OK! RL Max Weber gave me the answer.
Wikipedia says: Weber applies the term charisma to a certain quality of an individual personality, by virtue of which he is set apart from ordinary men and treated as endowed with supernatural, superhuman, or at least specifically exceptional powers or qualities. These are such as are not accessible to the ordinary person, but are regarded as of divine origin or as exemplary, and on the basis of them the individual concerned is treated as a leader [...] How the quality in question would be ultimately judged from an ethical, aesthetic, or other such point of view is naturally indifferent for the purpose of definition."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charismatic_authority#Charisma
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Charisma is awareness of self. Wisdom is awareness of one's environment.
| 10 people marked this as a favorite. |
It's like Fonzie. He just whaps the jukebox and it works for him. He doesn't need to know electronics because he so cool.
I'd like to point out Sorcerers tend to actually get their spells and abilities from their blood (force of self, and whatever.) They don't just study it, they are just born with it usually. Took me reading Order of the Stick: Start of Darkness to actually realize that.
On a related note, make's me question the flavor of the sorcerer class. What would happen if you did have magic blood flowing through someone, yet they chose to pursue, say: the way of the Fighter? The study of the Wizard? The Nature-loving Druid? What happens to that magical blood?
** spoiler omitted **
Make's me wonder what it would be like if that were true and certain characters actually had innate magical powers even if, say, they were a fighter. Some of their abilities also make me question if they should be a 3/4 BAB class instead of 1/2 BAB (Draconic Bloodline, bloodlines that give natural attacks0.
You should mention this to smilodan in his "help me think of a new base class i can design" thread. He'd probably love the idea.
Ultimately, sorcerers use charisma because WotC wanted someone to so they redefined it to include magicalness, but didn't apply it to all the other casting classes. Just another example of spontaneous casters not getting nice thing. They get the worst casting stat, delayed spell access, less spell selection than a wizard that's never sees a scroll he didn't scribe or someone else's spellbook in his career, and jack up casting times any time they want to use metamagic. In WotC's opinion people who don't like vancian spellcasting must suffer. Paizo's relaxed things a little with the arcane bloodline and then the sage and empyreal variant bloodlines, but backwards compatibility still rules the roost.
So you want sorcerers to cast more spells per day, get spell levels at the same time as wizards, take no penalty for casting metamagic spontaneously, without having to worry about a spell book or most material components, while getting awesome bloodline abilites. Yeah, that sounds balanced... o_O
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ultimately, sorcerers use charisma because WotC wanted someone to so they redefined it to include magicalness, but didn't apply it to all the other casting classes. Just another example of spontaneous casters not getting nice thing. They get the worst casting stat, delayed spell access, less spell selection than a wizard that's never sees a scroll he didn't scribe or someone else's spellbook in his career, and jack up casting times any time they want to use metamagic. In WotC's opinion people who don't like vancian spellcasting must suffer. Paizo's relaxed things a little with the arcane bloodline and then the sage and empyreal variant bloodlines, but backwards compatibility still rules the roost.So you want sorcerers to cast more spells per day, get spell levels at the same time as wizards, take no penalty for casting metamagic spontaneously, without having to worry about a spell book or most material components, while getting awesome bloodline abilites. Yeah, that sounds balanced... o_O
And I'd still say wizards are steps ahead of the sorcerer even with those houserules.
A rich Wizard puts a Sorcerer to shame. That's the only issue I have with the two. I'll still play nothing but Sorcerers as my choice as an arcane caster but it is annoying that the one advantage that Sorcerers have over Wizards can be circumvented through magical items some of which Sorcerers can't even use.
And a rich sorcerer puts a wizard to shame and overcomes his one limitation.
And I'd still say wizards are steps ahead of the sorcerer even with those houserules.Ultimately, sorcerers use charisma because WotC wanted someone to so they redefined it to include magicalness, but didn't apply it to all the other casting classes. Just another example of spontaneous casters not getting nice thing. They get the worst casting stat, delayed spell access, less spell selection than a wizard that's never sees a scroll he didn't scribe or someone else's spellbook in his career, and jack up casting times any time they want to use metamagic. In WotC's opinion people who don't like vancian spellcasting must suffer. Paizo's relaxed things a little with the arcane bloodline and then the sage and empyreal variant bloodlines, but backwards compatibility still rules the roost.So you want sorcerers to cast more spells per day, get spell levels at the same time as wizards, take no penalty for casting metamagic spontaneously, without having to worry about a spell book or most material components, while getting awesome bloodline abilites. Yeah, that sounds balanced... o_O
My only gripe with prepared versus spontaneous is the delayed spell access, the other cons are more bearable.
That's true. That's my biggest gripe with it, too.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The way I see it is like this:
I personally see my Sorcerer as someone who is on a journey learning about himself. He see's himself a step above the rest, as he need not rely on anyone or anything for his power. It's like a kid who's gone through puberty. He has things about himself that he doesn't quite understand, and that he's learning. Charisma is a measure of personality and personal magnetism. Those two things are directly linked to confidence and self-awareness. The more self-aware you are, and confident in what you are, the more you will be able to tap into that. If you have raw magical power coursing through your veins, you need high self-awareness and confidence to be able to tap into that reservoir of power. Consider this: A sorcerer with 10 Charisma would be able to cast a few cantrips at best. The power is inside of him, he just doesn't understand himself, and simply does not have the ability to channel this power.
Wizards cast using Intelligence because they know computers
Sorcerers cast using Charisma because heavy marketing convinced them to buy this overpriced gadget because it was cool.
Careful if the cult find out you are making fun of them the turtle necked one will be summoned to haunt you. Maybe even force you to spend eternity in a walled garden.
Spontaneous casters use the worst casting stat possible, get delayed spell access, can't use metamagic without surrendering their move actions, and get fewer spells known than a penniless wizard. One of those prices is reasonable. Two are okay. Three are excessive. All four are WotC begrudgingly offering non-vancian magic in the hopes that if they could make it suck enough people would stop requesting it.
Actually, what I have a gripe with is the fact that the Sorcerer gets shafted when entering a new spell level.
All the 6-Level progressions start their new spell level with two known spells.The Oracle gets three (one pick, one from the mystery, one from the cure/inflict list)
The Sorcerer gets one. Sorry, but Bloodline spells kick in a level later than the Oracle's mystery spells, nice to screw ya.
Strength is the power of the machine.
Dexterity is the precision of the machine.
Constitution is the heartiness of the machine.
Intelligence is the raw processing power of the machine.
Wisdom is the database that the processor uses for context.
Charisma is what makes this specific machine say "I".
Though I hate the word, you could consider it the "soul" stat.
Charisma casters and manifesters cast from the pit of their stomach. That fire inside.
Int's the "mind, Wisdom is the "gut feeling", and Charisma is the "heart".
Remember, these stats aren't based on our actual 2012 understandings of psychology and biology. They're not going to line up perfectly with logical ideas.
A rich Wizard puts a Sorcerer to shame. That's the only issue I have with the two. I'll still play nothing but Sorcerers as my choice as an arcane caster but it is annoying that the one advantage that Sorcerers have over Wizards can be circumvented through magical items some of which Sorcerers can't even use.And a rich sorcerer puts a wizard to shame and overcomes his one limitation.
Still say the wizard and his unlimited spells-known has the upper hand over the Sorc who has to cast lower-level magic from scrolls and wands rather than his own spellbook.
idk i always felt CON would be a logical casting stat for sorc's based on the fluff, but i can see how thatd be a tad broken.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
For me, it's that Charisma = mental strength, Intelligence = mental dexterity, Wis = mental constitution.
Short example. Rogue (dex) and Fighter (str) encounter a locked door. Rogue picks the lock and the fighter knocks it down. Same thing for the wizard vs Sorcerer.
The wizard takes out his picks (spell book) looks to see if he has the right tool on hand for the job (memorized spells) if he doesn't, then he can get the right tool out of his pack (rest and rememorize spells).
The Sorcerer has his axe (prepared spell list) if his axe doesn't have a lockpick on the end, all he can do is use the axe, or grab a snap gun (i.e. scroll, wand) to pick the lock.
|
|
The best way, I find, to look at it is this:
Sorcerers (and related Cha-based casters) do not rely on high Charisma to cast their innate magic. It is their innate magic nature that grants them high Charisma.
Now, from an in-game perspective this makes great sense. Legends and lore are full of powerful spellcasters with impressive personalities. From a meta-game perspective, this is hogwash. First you get the ability scores, then you get the spells (not to mention items that bump your Cha up a few notches).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
UMD relying on Charisma is even more confusing than sorcerers.
I'd also like to make it clear that my Druid with Cha 8 is a sexy beast, he's just bad at communicating.
For me, it's that Charisma = mental strength, Intelligence = mental dexterity, Wis = mental constitution.
Short example. Rogue (dex) and Fighter (str) encounter a locked door. Rogue picks the lock and the fighter knocks it down. Same thing for the wizard vs Sorcerer.
The wizard takes out his picks (spell book) looks to see if he has the right tool on hand for the job (memorized spells) if he doesn't, then he can get the right tool out of his pack (rest and rememorize spells).
The Sorcerer has his axe (prepared spell list) if his axe doesn't have a lockpick on the end, all he can do is use the axe, or grab a snap gun (i.e. scroll, wand) to pick the lock.
I like this example of equivocation with physical stats. Works out quite well.