I don't think there is going to be a specific set of abilities, feats, and classes that is "The Ultimate". Power gaming is more of a way of looking at the system.
The most powerful character I have found can be made many different ways, and doesn't rely on any one tactic.
The standard "most powerful" character is probably a wizard, although any full casting class works. Max out your casting stat, and make sure you have a decent con and dex. Specialize in save or suck magic, but keep some enchantment, conjuration, and even a little blasting. Movement magic is also important. On days off, use divination to gain all the info you can, and use crating feats to further boost your casting stat, and surpass your suggested WBL. Use everything you can that has day/level and longer duration. Use a controlled incorporeal creature to scout, bring planar bound creatures, summons, wand wielding familiar, etc. Bypass minor encounters, hit the bosses with as many actions as you can squeeze into a round, then beam out of there.
It isn't so much about any one thing you can do, as being able to control the pace of the game to your advantage, and having the right tool when you need it.
All fine and good, as long as the player was willing to roleplay that WIS 8! :)oh and the point buy for this would be
STR: 14 DEX: 12 CON: 14 INT: 10 WIS: 8 CHA: 14
The catch is that there is no "correct" or even "wrong" way to roleplay an 8 Wisdom, beyond having the appropriate penalties. You might use it for character quirk ideas, but there is literally no wrong way to play it.
Nearly all 6th level spell casters can overall outshine any other character. This is because of their versatility and power on the battlefield. Alchemists have a good amount of skills and do retarded amounts of damage. Bards are the best skill monkeys and buff everyone else to do retarded amounts of damage. summoners have an okay amount of skills, have summons that can fill in party gaps, and their eidolon does good damage. The magus has okay skills, can spike for high amounts of damage, has good defenses, and have amazing battlefield presence. The inquisitor is a barbarian that keeps on trucking by defensive spells and judgement abilities, has decent skills, and can play an okay secondary healer.
In higher level play the wizards, clerics, and sorcerers are the big players. This is because of their vast pool of spells that allows them to answer the call of most situations.
However to address what you're were requesting about overpowered builds I will say this. Character power is relative to the characters in the party.
One thing that doesn't ever make sense to me is the idea of people not role playing ability scores properly or heaping on extra penalties to a character with a low score.
Dwarf Fighter with a 5 charisma only has a -15% chance to do something based on charisma as a Half-Elf Rogue with a 10 charisma, give or take skill training.
Same thing goes with intelligence, a 5 int has only a -15% chance worse then a character with a 10 int. He is not all that less smart. In fact having a skill as a class skill gives you the same modifier, so fighter with 5 in takes knowledge engineering and cavalier with a 10 int takes the same number of ranks in it both are equal in the ability.
A low stat as bad as they are don't need people thinking they can't do things it is just harder.
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I think powergaming doesn't have to be about a whole pc but parts of it.
For example someone who tries to argue that if he has magical lineage (magic missile) and he casts a mercyful magic missile it becomes a cantrip and thus he can do it unlimited time per day is a powergamer, no matter what else his pc can do.What does this combo matter?
Not game-breaking in most fights, in some good, in some useless.
@cartmanbeck
How does he get +8 dex at lev3 and 5d6 from shocking grasp at lev 3? And why doesnt his 3 minutes shield spell end nearly always after 1 combat?
Snake style is supposed to work that way and it is not game breaking that way.
Where is the +9 dam from? And you lose 1 level of access to higher spells for that +1 cast level. Sounds balanced.
Can't help but feel that you don't actually want any examples or explanations. You seem to have made up your mind before you started, and are making yourself feel better (likely for some behavior you have been called-out for at some table or in another thread) by taunting others when they try to provide examples.
Meanwhile, you provide no proof at all toward your own point. (Hint: just telling somebody else they are wrong does not prove you are right.)
Here's the problem. PowerGaming is an opinion sort-of-thing. Different players/GMs can tolerate different levels of it. Despite this, it DOES exist, or we never would have been discussing it here (much less discussing it for some 30+ years as we have). So you're not going to convince anybody here that it does not exist. And since it is an opinion thing, you probably ARE guilty of it, at least in the view of the person who called you out on it, whose style yours clearly does not jibe with.
So get over it, and move on to playing with people who like your builds. If you're lucky, you'll run into some schmo who puts your builds to shame, and then you can complain about what a powergaming jerk he is. And then we can laugh at you.
An optimized magus is pretty much a DPR monster with few real weaknesses except the need to use finite resources. In a 1-2 encounters per day style AP (like Kingmaker, Jade Regent and Serpent Skull, where you trek across a billion miles and encounter 1-2 baddies a day, if that) he can go nova and do some absurd damage.
I am contemplating dropping my bard in Jade Regent because the GM says he intends to upscale HP and stats of monsters to mitigate our offensive power. Basically rendering my buff-oriented bard pointless. And replace him with a healbot cleric/oracle to meet the GM's control issues, demanding that fights need to be protracted and "exciting". Which our current group with NO healing, but massive DPR cannot deal with if our proactive defense (kill them quick before they kill us) is removed.
Carn how do you handle things when you have super-character and the commoner(not really a commoner) playing side by side.
As a better example:Anything that can challenge super-character/player likely kills the rest of the party, but anything that can merely challenge the rest of the party can be solo'd by super character/player.
The above example is why I said it depends on the GM, and the group. I don't think anything in PF is inherently OP with a weakness, but depending on other circumstances certain builds/players can be a problem.
There have been many threads where a character or build has been called out as OP, but many times the issues was the lack of system mastery by the GM and/or the other players were not as good as the one player so he seems to always have the spot light.
What might be ok in your group as an example might give another GM fits.
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GM: So what kind PC are you looking to play?
Player: I am gonna be basically a Superman/Batman mix, without all that Kryptonite weakness bullcrap.
GM: That sounds a bit overpowered, and gamebreaking.
Player: Ugh, I just want to be better than everyone else, at everything, why do you want ruin my fun?
GM: Well, that doesn't sound very fun for everyone else.
Player: That's not my problem, because I came here to win, and it's not my fault if everyone else wants to play losers.
GM: I am not sure that's what every one else is looking for in this game, as they seem to be building flavorful characters, and not necessarily weak, but not quite the god you want to play.
Player: Gawd! I have flavor, it's the kick everyone's butt flavor, stop being a buzzkill.
GM: Well, tone it down, it's group game, work with the group.
Player: I am cool with groupies.
GM: I still don't think you quite get it.
Player: What?! Now you say I am stupid? Screw you man. Either let me play what I want, or I am going home and playing WOW.
GM: Okay...
Player: What?! Now you say I am stupid? Screw you man. Either let me play what I want, or I am going home and playing WOW.GM: Okay...
You'd think as someone who played WoW he would understand the concept of teamwork better, since there's no class in WoW that can do it all at all times. Even the hybrid classes (at least in 3.3.5, I'm not sure about Cataclysm and Mists) generally focus on something.
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You'd think as someone who played WoW he would understand the concept of teamwork better, since there's no class in WoW that can do it all at all times. Even the hybrid classes (at least in 3.3.5, I'm not sure about Cataclysm and Mists) generally focus on something.
Player: What?! Now you say I am stupid? Screw you man. Either let me play what I want, or I am going home and playing WOW.GM: Okay...
That's part of the humor.
Ok, differing power levels is a big problem. And with the many options in PF, especially with the many ways multiclassing can go wrong, that is a serious problem. Requires at least additional work for GM to check his players are not doing mistakes. Once had a player, who wanted to multiclass from a cleric into a fighter, so party is betterat withstanding damage. Unfortunately the improve would have been quite short time and be a serious weakness for his overall effectiveness as cleric.
Those are normally the real issues that come up though. If everyone has super-character it is not that much of an issue. That can be handled by upping the challenge. Many times when you see post here about an OP character it is due to a big difference in power levels.
well... in the open game I'm thinking of that was the game gurps was based on... there are powerlevels. you just tell the player the power level and it controls what the limits of their abilitys are for just about everything. mutants and masterminds I think does the same thing. its very easy to set the balance. why couldent you have that for PF? some kind of scale that shows max damage, ac, no of attacks, etc and gives a power rating by level... or is that impossible?
I think mutants and masterminds works like that. It is a D20 superhero game.
well... in the open game I'm thinking of that was the game gurps was based on... there are powerlevels. you just tell the player the power level and it controls what the limits of their abilitys are for just about everything.From my experience with GURPS, i doubt that its balanced without heavy GM interference. Just too many abilities, skills, powers and so on, that allow various forms of optimization.
I have never played GURPS, but I have been told it's a powergamer's wet dream. XD
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I have never played GURPS, but I have been told it's a powergamer's wet dream. XDwell... in the open game I'm thinking of that was the game gurps was based on... there are powerlevels. you just tell the player the power level and it controls what the limits of their abilitys are for just about everything.From my experience with GURPS, i doubt that its balanced without heavy GM interference. Just too many abilities, skills, powers and so on, that allow various forms of optimization.
It is...nightly wet dreams.
Does that character even make sense? I think that is one issue with powergaming, the combination are not always taken with any attempt at reasoning them out. May be I am just quibbling?!
A Paladin who specializes in summoning celestial creatures and eventually works their way up to being the disciple of a metallic dragon.
Seems like a pretty neat character concept actually, even outside of the mechanics.
An Inquisitor who focused on the Snake Style feat, letting him use his sense motive check in place of AC once per round. This usually give him an AC of around 24-32, depending on how he rolls. He rolls high a LOT. His weakness is... I'm not sure actually. I'd have to look at his sheet, cuz I don't think anything has come up with his character yet that I would call a weakness.
Just to clarify (and it may have been already, I skipped a lot) it's not once per round, it's versus 1 attack. The "weakness" is if he gets attacked more than once that round (even if it's by the same enemy). I'm not sure that qualifies as a gamebreaker.
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No clue what you mean by "official" races. If you meant "Races Paizo said are fine for players", then AMY ALCHY is a pretty great stab at it.
She's also 100% RAW legal, as far as I've been able to tell.
Feral Combat Training does not have the ol' clause of taking that particular feat several time("each time you take it, yada yada"), so it can't be picked twice. Otherwise she is quite the swell lass.
As for the topic itself, I got nothing. Pick your poison, make sure it does not ruin the fun of anyone else and keep at it. Of course, there are times when one might have to check oneself from causing escalation; the aforementioned rebalancing of Adventure Paths to meet the power of the party comes to mind. Try a less powerful party for the next campaign, for instance. It can be rewarding to challenge yourself with a weaker, more down to earth characters. There's nothing particularly challenging about mastering system after all and it keeps combat from becoming a pure initiative match that much earlier.
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Does that character even make sense? I think that is one issue with powergaming, the combination are not always taken with any attempt at reasoning them out. May be I am just quibbling?!
I don't think you're quibbling. I personally do my very best to quash any PG/Munchkinism at the table because it ruins the experience for the other players at the table. If you want a list of examples as to WHY it does, I think that would best be suited for a new thread altogether though.
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The catch is that there is no "correct" or even "wrong" way to roleplay an 8 Wisdom, beyond having the appropriate penalties. You might use it for character quirk ideas, but there is literally no wrong way to play it.All fine and good, as long as the player was willing to roleplay that WIS 8! :)oh and the point buy for this would be
STR: 14 DEX: 12 CON: 14 INT: 10 WIS: 8 CHA: 14
Not quite what I meant. I have played with loads of PGs who conveniently ignore their dump stat when, and wherever, they can.
Powergaming? Without weaknesses?
In my opinion the 2 best classes for that are probably Inquisitor (Witchunter Archetype) and Magus (Hexcrafter)
Why? Both have damn good spellists and High Fort and High Will saves.
The inquisitor is particularly hard to effect with spells (Paricularly Dwarves with glory of old Trait and Steel Soul). With the Witchunter archetype and a high Spellcraft it puts his saves in the autopass area. This is reinfoced by being a divine caster- It's primary stat for.spells also happens to modify will saves. The class has some of the BEST divine spells and the Judgement ability gets it to melee awesomeness in round 1. Throw a powerful domain on top (Travel, Animal or Destruction being good examples) and you have a class that without having world shattering power IS fantastic at what it does and is damn hard to stop. On top of all this it gets 6 skill points per level. A fantastically strong all rounder.
The magus, particularly the hexcrafter (with Staff magus being a notable compatable option as well) is incredibly good at being versatile. 6 levels of casting with some.of the best wizard spells, in addition to a strong evocation focus (usually a subpar option for a wizard, many magus damage spells carry debilitating conditions as well- frostbite and fridgid touch beimg good examples). Magus carries two good saves (fort, will) full weapon proficiency and (eventually) full armored casting. The spellist carries many staple non blast spells (haste, mirror image, slow, fly, teleport) and the focus on INT as a casting stat means it also has plenty of skills. The major strength though is the classes ability to break action economy via spellstrike and spellcombat and (to a lesser extent) via a wand using familiar. It's nothing for a hexcrafter to self buff with Arcane Accuracy, Cast a spell AND full attack and have a familiar use a wand in a single round. The hexcrafter is even better by gaining the signature Witch ability: Hexes. This allows the 6th level caster to use Supernatural abilities with scaling DC's as you advance in levels (with unlimited uses) in areas like Buffing and Debuffing (something regular Magus struggles with) and saving TONS of spellslots which would otherwise be a limited rescource (Fly hex for example)
So those two are in my opinion the 2 easist classes to powergame with. They take a little system mastery but offer so much in mechanical abilities
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Not quite what I meant. I have played with loads of PGs who conveniently ignore their dump stat when, and wherever, they can.The catch is that there is no "correct" or even "wrong" way to roleplay an 8 Wisdom, beyond having the appropriate penalties. You might use it for character quirk ideas, but there is literally no wrong way to play it.All fine and good, as long as the player was willing to roleplay that WIS 8! :)oh and the point buy for this would be
STR: 14 DEX: 12 CON: 14 INT: 10 WIS: 8 CHA: 14
look at the average npc most of them will have an 8 in a stat. this does not mean you are hindered in any way via roleplaying. you have a -1 to your perception and heal and a few others. will save goes down. i do however go out of my way to act rashly (unwise) and usually display a general lack of attention.
But this is a thread on power gaming not role playing so i didnt feel a need to include a how to guide on playing a character.|
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Does that character even make sense? I think that is one issue with powergaming, the combination are not always taken with any attempt at reasoning them out. May be I am just quibbling?!A Paladin who specializes in summoning celestial creatures and eventually works their way up to being the disciple of a metallic dragon.
Seems like a pretty neat character concept actually, even outside of the mechanics.
My eidolon looks like a multi legged silver dragon (chinese serpentine type) rushing to the aid of friends using magic to imbue and empower everyone and myself and when the time needs summoning goodly creatures to aid in our battle. and i follow Apsu dragon god.
I felt i needed to say something thank you fleshgrinder for thinking before posting. and chubbs you seem to neigh say an awful lot try contributing instead of just questioning everyones posts.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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An Inquisitor who focused on the Snake Style feat, letting him use his sense motive check in place of AC once per round. This usually give him an AC of around 24-32, depending on how he rolls. He rolls high a LOT. His weakness is... I'm not sure actually. I'd have to look at his sheet, cuz I don't think anything has come up with his character yet that I would call a weakness.Just to clarify (and it may have been already, I skipped a lot) it's not once per round, it's versus 1 attack. The "weakness" is if he gets attacked more than once that round (even if it's by the same enemy). I'm not sure that qualifies as a gamebreaker.
I... don't see the difference here. You can't ever use more than one immediate action per round, so you're essentially using it against one attack per round. The ONLY thing I see that is a "weakness" is that it uses up your swift action for your next turn. For an Inquisitor, I don't think that's as big of a deal as it would be for, say, a Magus.