my complaint was he does more damage than what the AP encounters have been able to handle, and the DM in trying to deal with that(emphasis added). This is the source of the problem.
APs are great. But they (like, apparently, PFS adventures, though I haven't played those) are built with a "typical average party" in mind. That is, an average gaming group without optimizers. They're built so the kind of characters that the Pregens serve as an example of will be challenged. And one thing everyone notices about Pregens is, they aren't optimized. The average gaming group (which is under-represented at forums; foruming produces a skewed sample) does not consist of optimizers. So the APs aren't written with OPs in mind.
In the Council of Thieves forum last week one GM posted how he modified one major (culminating) encounter in Infernal Syndrome to make it more challenging for his party - because his players have more OP builds and as written the encounter would not be challenging. Note that even after "beefing up" the big bad, the party still "mowed through" it in 2 (or was it 3?) rounds. But still two PCs almost died, and the big reason they won is they came prepared (they had done their legwork/research before going in). (<--- as a player I always want to do this, and as a DM I reward, rather than punish this).
Anyhow the point of my latest long-winded screed is: the APs are great but the DM always needs to adjust/tweek them to challenge (but not overwhelm) the players in their own campaign. Optimized builds will almost always blow through AP encounters (unless they meet one that just happens to exploit all their weaknesses) if those encounters are run as written with no modifications to the beasties.
(Well, that's not quite true. . .but it's default-true). Switching out spell selections and otherwise making sure the mobs and bosses get the most out of their own abilities can help a lot.
But the problem here may not be the optimized build, it's the...
That is really sad, that the dm did plenty of prep to make a big boss a real challenge, and all that happened was it got steam-rolled in 2-3 rounds and nearly killed two players. Where is the back and forth, where is the battle? It's over in no time. The modifiers got so ridiculous, there was no battle.
ugg... im fading here, I need sleep and I'll have to scramble to get to the game after I wake up.
I'm just going to leave it as this...
a while ago I read a post, cant find it now, google wont tell me.. but it was about a guy who watched some kids playing hide and go seek, one of the kids was clearly better at it than all the others... he found the perfect hiding spot one where the guy knew none of the other kids would ever find him and he would be sitting in that spot, missing out on all the fun of running and hiding again and would likely ruin the game for the rest of the kids as he would never ever get found... so the guy yells "GET FOUND!" hoping the kid would give himself up
essentially thats the core of powergaming, or min-maxing, or optimization, or monty-haul players or whatever you want to call it.
people who are damn great at it, make the game less fun for most players (unless all the players want to hide and never get found). if hide and seek had a DM, the DM could ban the hiding spot (ban specific feats or archtypes), or he could demand they play on another field without such a perfect hiding spot (go to a different system)but essentially because a DM would have to do these things, the feild with the perfect hiding spot, is essentially broken.
players dont have to take advantage of it, but the fact that it is there, the fact that it is possible, means the game "can be" ruined...
oh yeah... and there'd always be the guy who complained when his favorote perfect hiding spot was denied...
GET FOUND YA'LL
I'll post characters or whatever later...
oh yeah... and its my personal opinion, the PF hide and go seek feild... has a hell of a lot of perfect hiding spots...
I think you are really on to something. Tension and excitement comes from weakness and vulnerability--of it being far from certain that your char will survive and triumph. This is a quite separate enjoyment to the proud and cocky power-gamer, thrilled that they won without much challenge, pleased that they are protected, safe and hidden. I've been observing players for some time as a dm, I have to started to notice differences. One power-gamer, when his char was actually really close to death, he couldn't take it, he got up and tried to leave the table. He had to have mastery, he had to be hiding, he couldn't take a real risk, only a weighted risk.
Good post.
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That is really sad, that the dm did plenty of prep to make a big boss a real challenge, and all that happened was it got steam-rolled in 2-3 rounds and nearly killed two players. Where is the back and forth, where is the battle? It's over in no time. The modifiers got so ridiculous, there was no battle.
I synpopsized his own synopsis so as to not give away AP spoilers, but if you're curious abuot the details and his description of it, it's in the Council of Thieves sub-forum.
Like I said earlier, IMO if combats routinely end in 1-2 rounds, it's not really combat. But on the other hand, if characters (and yes, I mean characters - the way he described it, the characters did a lot of research before going in, and then prepped themselves accordingly; not just in meta-build tweeking, but through gaining in game, in character knowledge/information of what they'd be facing, and then equipping themselves to handle it) do their pre-mission prep properly, well as a DM I don't punish that, I see that as them doing a good job.
And, as the DM described it, my impression was the fight really could have gone either way, if even one of the PCs was knocked unconscious - as almost happened. But the party also worked well as a team, and so they came out ahead.
Some great advice in this thread, let me throw my 2 copper pieces in and suggest that you can't control powergamers, and you can't stop powergamers. All you can do is take their love of the game and redirect it back into your campaign in a more constructive fashion. Show 'em how and why YOU love the game, and maybe get them to play along, and forget all of the +2's and +4's for a while.
I don't know about cheesemonkeys, but the Hero Lab boards at Lone Wolf have a Cheeseweasel. :P
Tension and excitement comes from weakness and vulnerability--of it being far from certain that your char will survive and triumph. This is a quite separate enjoyment to the proud and cocky power-gamer, thrilled that they won without much...
I wouldn't be a successful adventurer if I left too many things up to chance. Sure, I could be one of those types who go out in a blaze o' glory and get poems of their brave (and mostly avoidable) deaths made by bards or maybe a nice statue in the place they died saving, but I think I prefer just taking care of business the smart way. Yeah no one cares at all if ya make it look easy through planning or superior firepower; there's no speeches or heartfelt thanks, but you know deep down that you did good, and the nice jingling sound all those coins make when they're together proves it. :P
Ahh, planning and prep is good, but if you are in more of a low magic game, there is less safety in the items you can procure. Your saves become more governed by feats and what your class is good at, rather than the giant mod you have from your boosting items. When you win (or rather if), there is less credit on your body slots, so I see it and run it. Then again I am a fan of the old Ian Livingstone books, where you start with very little and go from there.
On superior firepower, I am reminded of a comment by Yantzee on the turn in fp shooters, of playing a soldier backed up by so much hardware and support, fighting the less powerful. The enemies are the ones that struggle, they have the odds stacked against them, not really the players. This seems the opposite of excitement, but the smugness of easily coming out on top does thrill some, partially.
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Consider discussing with them why they power game. They may not even consider what they do as power gaming in the same way you do. I mean, I've been in games that have standard optimization levels far, far above my usual comfort zone; but to those players they were just playing the game they enjoy.
This. Everyone has their fun a different way. They may not even know they're powergaming by your lights. They may just know the rules so well that they'd feel like they were deliberately nerfing themselves by bringing their character down to something more reasonable.
Were I their GM, I'd create a campaign that gives them exactly what they want. Outside of battle, it would be silly and campy and heavily inspired by 'we be goblins.' Inside of battle, it would be full of bodies for the PGs to hack down, and just generally be designed to make them shine. The idea would be to use the outside-of-battle time to create an atmosphere to get even the non-powergamers into a 'roar, kill them all!' mindset and just really play up the slaughter and kill count angle. I'd also try to help the non-PG players during character creation by specifically telling them my goals for the campaign and help them create cheesed out characters.
Then, concurrently with the cheese campaign I'd run a much more toned down and 'normal' one. I'd get with the PG players and tell them my goals for this campaign, and basically say "look, I'm giving you everything you want in the other campaign. In THIS one, please play a character that's not designed to have incredibly high body counts during battle. This is a great opportunity to try out those characters that you design more for flavor or supporting someone else in battle, or concentrating on a weak area like tactics (if the player still needs to work on it) or shield bashing. Do stuff in this one that you wouldn't normally do because it's not completely effective, but that you would still have a good time with."
It's important that all of your players have fun in both campaigns, or whatever the style of the single campaign you run (if you don't want to alternate two). But if you tell them where you're uncomfortable and give them a place where they can let it all out, most people are willing to constrain themselves. The important emphasis would be that you're not telling them to not have fun, but simply to try some of the more toned down builds in a way that they would find novel and interesting.
Meanwhile, I've seen the opposite end of the spectrum with groups who think bards are weak, monks are OP, and fighters are gods. Sometimes it's just a matter of perspective.
I played an adventure with a group like this, and it was something else. I was picking out which magic user I wanted in 3.5, and the group was like "wizard? sorcerer? Why would you want to play such a weak build?!? We've never had a successful magic user!"
I'd just come from a group where everyone played a magic user, and the primary tactic was to 'nuke' a room you know monsters are in by having everyone throw a fireball (or the class equivalent) in at nearly the same time. The new group and I just kind of stared at each other in mutual befuddlement and I said "then you've never had anyone play a battle-caster right."
The adventure was low level, but my gnome illusionist caused such mayhem to both the group and their enemies that they're still telling stories about my character years later. Good times!
gnomersy- that means the dm needs to be able to clearly define exactly what is ok and not ok for his game, he needs to be able to limit his players if hes going for "not optimized" and that was the point of this whole thread,
how do you do that? how do you control the powergamers, and stop the powergaming? how do you limit them?
Power gaming means different things to different people so I won't address the word.
What I will say is that a GM should try to make sure to only allow what he can handle.
Sticking to core races and 15 or 20 point buy is a good start. If you think you can handle the CRB then allow the APG, and so on, up ot your limits.
I had a guy in my game with an AC of about 60. I also ran a PBP where a barbarian was doing about 200-300ish points of damage at level 13.
Had I ran into either of these situations a few years ago it would have been terrible for my game.
To sum up what I am saying you limit them by limiting the options(books and so on) they have access to. You also so what you can to learn the system better. There is no magic bullet to this. Sometime people just are not compatible as gamers or GM's also.
PS:You=GM, not any specific poster.
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and the balance issue... the AP's have a set powerlevel right? I mean, if you have a group of players who all fit within the same powerlevel... you wouldnent need to change any encounter?
If that is a correct statement, thats what I want to know... how do you stop players from going over that powerlevel? Tels had a very good suggestion in my mind, as did a few other posters, you can limit whole books, you can limit the feats most commonly abused.
If your saying, that cant really be done, that the DM must taylor every encounter to fit an individual powerlevel, and not a group character level, then I think your very wrong in saying that there is no imbalance in this game.
k gotta get gone, bbl.
No, that is not correct. A team of 4 druids or 4 rogues, as an example, will require some changes since the game assumes a that certain things will be accounted for. In short the AP's are not 1 size fits all. They are premade, but some adjustments by the GM will be needed. That does not mean there is imbalance. It does mean that due to the high number of options available that the GM needs to be prepared to handle those options.
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sad story
You have three options:
Just grab OP builds and join in. Tell the GM that there was an accident in the game and all the monster CRs are 2-4 points too high.Talk to the player and see if your and their styles work. Some people don't fit every group.
Give up on PF, it is full of system mastery and building PCs is more or less a science where there are right and wrong ways to make each class/race combo. The game is full of traps like Burning Hands and Endurance designed to punish people who move away from the optimized way to build.
I guess, talk it out, love it or leave it.
One of our first adventures was part of the G series"Against the Giants". Oh, did I mention that everyone else was level 30+?
I confess, most of the original/2nd edition I played, no one made it that high without the DM being made of marshmallow stuffed pillows.
I talked to the player who had been in the game the 2nd longest (game has been running with breaks for four years) who told me, "first dont talk to those people on the forums, their all powergamers and they'll screw your head up, (lol, I disagreed but meh what he said) then he mentioned that almost none of the characters in the group had dedicated themselves soley to combat superiority and started naming off feats that the characters had that had primarily only to do with backstory,
Dont listen to people who generalise. ;)
With that aside taking mostly combat feats is not good or bad. The important thing is to stay within your group's tolerance level. Some groups like really powerful builds, others are not laid back about such things. :)
If I start a few levels behind everyone I know I am in danger of dying so I would make a strong character also. Once the GM got me to everyone else's level I would pull back. You can't RP with a dead character.
According to him, this was a guy who never seemed to get that message till they had to shove it down his throat. Turns out, he wasnt having much fun being the powergamer either (because his character never really fit with the party and he sorta felt on the outs since his first game)
How are you tripping elementals? Is the GM ignoring the size limit? This is more of a rhetorical question.
I guess the issue was resolved though. Happy Gaming.
See, I said talking it out with him would work.
and last jab... in my old groups, if you had a monk-barbarian the DM would say "uh, how exactly?" and unless there was some damn good reason why that would make sense and lead to a lot of hooks for the game... he'd say hell no.
Um, monk barbarians are entirely legal. It's just some dude who learned some martial arts while he was lawful, and at some point he fell off monk training (and the lawful alignment) and went in a different direction. That one is actually not hard to fathom at all.
My point was that monster that are up to a certain size are immune to your trips. I did not know shield slam could trip anything. I did know it could be used for a bull rush though with a certain feat.
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I like how as someone who naturally gravitates towards making my characters be the best they can be I am labeled a "power gamer".
Some people enjoy making a character concept and then fitting it into the rules, and others like to look at the rules find what they like the best and then make their character around those choices.
Neither is right, neither is wrong, with everything comes sacrifice.
I should not be limited because you did not choose a class that has as powerful of options as mine.
Don't get me wrong it's no fun when one character is ruling the whole party through sheer optimization, but again no one class is capable of being amazingly better than everyone else at everything. Just my 2 cents :)
wraith- yeah its the bull rush, but if they hit a wall they go prone, I dont think they were immune, think they just got a +16 size bonus or something.
Karl- I think my issue would be that IF to you "best they can be" always means "MOAR POWAH!!!" thats sort of a powergamer thing to say.
and to make things simple as a quick def, I'll just say a powergamer is one who values having a powerful character over all other concerns (staying in character, keeping in concept, being within alignment etc)...
IF to you best= more cohearant (butchered that one) with concept and your willing to "sacrifice" a small ammount of power in order to give a few feats towards making that back story legit... I would say your more of a true RP'er.
last... if 80% of the game is finding the monsters and beating the crap out of them, and only 20% is RP, then sacrifice of RP feats and skills for more power isnt much of a sacrifice and thats where the balance issues come in. some games will have more or less RP depending on DM (but so far, for me, RP has been like 10% in RotRL, and I'd assume 20% is the average though people like to pretend its 50-50%)
but just my 2 cents ;-)
They are immune.
Trip
You can attempt to trip your opponent in place of a melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is than one size category larger than you. If you do not have the Improved Trip feat, or a similar ability, initiating a trip provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.
If your attack exceeds the target's CMD, the target is knocked prone. If your attack fails by 10 or more, you are knocked prone instead. If the target has more than two legs, add +2 to the DC of the combat maneuver attack roll for each additional leg it has. Some creatures—such as oozes, creatures without legs, and flying creatures—cannot be tripped.
As for the RP vs combat feats, you don't need the RP feats such as persuasion to RP well, but you do need the combat feats to be good in combat. The RP feats just make you a lot better.
PS:If by RP feats you mean things like Skill Focus(Profession:Baker) then I misunderstood.
edit:Since you are using bull rush instead of tripping them though you don't have to worry about the size difference making them immune though.
...
People have been trying to tell you for 5 pages there is no such thing as imbalanced...
Not exactly all of us.
I am certainly NOT saying there are no imbalance issues.I AM saying the problems descraibed have nothing to do with imbalance and have alot to do with social interactions.
Some of the things allowed by the GM may have made the problem worse. But the problem with someone being a jerk can not be resolved by any game system. A person can always find a way to 'win' and make the others 'lose' no matter what the rules say.
The only possible resolution is with conversation and compromise on all sides.
Ahh, planning and prep is good, but if you are in more of a low magic game, there is less safety in the items you can procure. Your saves become more governed by feats and what your class is good at, rather than the giant mod you have from your boosting items. When you win (or rather if), there is less credit on your body slots, so I see it and run it. Then again I am a fan of the old Ian Livingstone books, where you start with very little and go from there.
If this is still about the CoW Infernal Engine encounter, you could always PM the DM and ask him what the characters had or didn't have and whether they were well above WBL or not before knocking down straw men. He's on the boards, his profile is here if you'd like to PM him.
Too much awezome crammed into too tiny zpace. You zaid he did not want to break ze game!
Yowza...
Betwween this and the last thread, it sounds like the OP is having a rough time with Pathfinder....But I don't really think it's the GAMES fault.
Between the two threads, what I would recommend....
1) 15 pt buy. MAYBE 10... I don't see how you can powergame with only 15 points to spend. Rolling leads to imballance.
2) Core only. If some of the Ultimate/archtype/awesome books are giving too much power, don't allow them.
3) Four person parties. IF you have 8 people in the group, you can't HELP but have overlap and one person stealing some thunder... if the party is too tough or the combat too slow... disallow summoners and Pet classes... It's simple fact that a combat round with 10 characters (both sides) will go faster than ones with 18....
For MANY APs, this should solve the problem. A LOT of the APs were designed BEFORE some of these extra books came out... so the NPCs weren't DESIGNED to handle the Super monks or invulnerbale Barbarians.. the Alchemists.. the inquisters... NEw and awesome Feats that the NPC would have taken with the choice...
APs are designed with 4 people of 15 point builds... We usually play 25, but then we don't have a powergamer issue in our group.
If you have 6-8 chracters all rolled with uber-stats trying to run an AP that wasn't designed for the classes running it....
It's not REALLY the GAMES fault there ;)
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Well no the best you can be is not always "MOAR POWAH".
I just don't get why people can't optimize their characters and stay within RP guidelines, the people I play with manage to do both just fine.
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I dont really think it matters what your character's abilities are, or what iorn handed tatics the DM uses. IF he's a great DM (having more to do with his ability to create plot and sub plots that really tie you into the world, character development, etc than his ability to handle wacky OP characters who should have been nerfed anyway) and the other players are not complete dunderheads you'll have a great time.
This is true for story-hour games, but false for games in which the players enjoy tactical challenges as well as social ones. To be a good DM across the board, one has to be able to handle the plot stuff AND the combat stuff both. To say that one or the other isn't important, or matters only to "complete dunderheads," is One-True-Way-ism at its worst.
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1) 15 pt buy. MAYBE 10... I don't see how you can powergame with only 15 points to spend. Rolling leads to imballance.
Low point buy does nothing to curb powergaming; a powergamer will still be able to make their 15 points of point buy go farther than a non-powergamer. They might even enjoy the challenge.
Remember: powergaming can create imbalances in the power level of a party not because it creates characters who are unbalanced by an objective metric, but because it creates a relative imbalance within the party.
Suppose everybody's highest stat is a 16. If the fighter puts the 16 in strength, the cleric puts the 16 in dex, the wizard puts the 16 in charisma, and the rogue puts the 16 in wisdom... well, the fighter is going to be a lot more combat-effective than the rest of the party, but that might not be the fighter's fault.
1) 15 pt buy. MAYBE 10... I don't see how you can powergame with only 15 points to spend. Rolling leads to imballance.
Low point buy does nothing to curb powergaming; a powergamer will still be able to make their 15 points of point buy go farther than a non-powergamer. They might even enjoy the challenge.
Remember: powergaming can create imbalances in the power level of a party not because it creates characters who are unbalanced by an objective metric, but because it creates a relative imbalance within the party.
Suppose everybody's highest stat is a 16. If the fighter puts the 16 in strength, the cleric puts the 16 in dex, the wizard puts the 16 in charisma, and the rogue puts the 16 in wisdom... well, the fighter is going to be a lot more combat-effective than the rest of the party, but that might not be the fighter's fault.
True, but at 10-15 points, theres going to be weaknesses. Nobody can be great at EVERYTHING... and at 15 points, there won't be as many 20 starting strengths...
But most importantly... they won't be breaking the AP like the OP was complaining about.
We just played a game last night... where our Ranger/barbarian half-orc did over 300 points of damage in one round!!! She's level 17, but I couldn't roll above an EIGHT with my rogue all night!!!
frankly, I was GLAD that there was a beefy warrior type to pull our butts out of the fire. "I" certainly wasn't doing nuthing!!
Having a Fighter type being good at fighting is not powergaming. Between dice, saves and random other factors, one or two characters SHOULD shine during combat... others at social... others at picking locks (Which I kicked BUTT at last night and dodged a MASSIVE BEAST of a trap!!!)
I should point out that while she was slaughtering THREE of the enemies in one round... the OTHER half of the party were fighting 7 OTHER enemies.. and everyone got their shots in and it was an epic battle that took us 2 hours past when we usually quit...
the half-orc was the most powerful fighter.... but we ALL got to play and have fun just from different placement of the enemies.
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Controlling Powergamers in Pathfinder
Since we all know and agree there are HUGE balance issues, and min/maxed optimized characters with insanely unbalanced abilities are very easy to create, and after level 12 many power combos can effectively one shot most AP encounters,
I figured I’d ask more helpful questions to solve the problem of powergaming.
The easiest solution? Don't run the Adventure Paths. Run your own campaign, build your own NPC's at a power level consistent with the power level of the Min Maxers.
This gives you all the freedom in the world to min max as much as your Players.
I also highly encourage non-Golarian, homebrew campaigns with Pathfinder. While Golarion and the APs are REALLY WELL done, it's Much easier to power balance as mentioned, in a homebrew. And it just gives more freedom for you as a GM. Plus you can focus on the things you want to focus on.
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Dont listen to people who generalise. ;)
This. In fact, I would take it a step further: NEVER listen to people who generalize. It's always a mistake. ALWAYS.
Make everyone a kobold!
I second this.
To me it doesnt sound like you have a problem with a powergamer, it sounds like you have a problem with the power difference within the group that is unfun for some people. To me the only way to fix that is to talk to all players and make them do characters that are equally strong, if you need to fix it ofc.
But i wanted to say that the game is not hugely unbalanced because a guy optimizes, my guess is that he could take any of the classes and make a stronger combat char than the rest of the party, which kinda means that if everything is "broken" then nothing is broken, and that the problem lies within your group not the gaming system.
People dont complain that world of warcrap is unbalanced because a paladin with pvp gear and talents are vastly superior to a paladin that takes talents that fit roleplaying, or that has "good looking effects" for example. In short this is a problem with your group not the game.
So is there any way you as a GM can make the gaming group more "equal"? my guess is no, but i would counter with the question, is it really necesary. If you have people in the group that do not build characters for combat, then that is probably because they dont want combat characters, which means you can easily give them out of combat time to shine, and the PGer time to shine in combat. If the other players feel like they want to be good at combat too, but they are always overshadowed, then make the PGer help them in making their characters, which would probably result in a roughly even party. As a main thing i would say the game is about the players (and gm) having fun, and i see no reason why you would have to take away the fun from the PGer if you can work around it and make everyone have fun.
Controlling Powergamers in Pathfinder
Since we all know and agree there are HUGE balance issues, and min/maxed optimized characters with insanely unbalanced abilities are very easy to create, and after level 12 many power combos can effectively one shot most AP encounters,
I figured I’d ask more helpful questions to solve the problem of powergaming.
The easiest solution? Don't run the Adventure Paths. Run your own campaign, build your own NPC's at a power level consistent with the power level of the Min Maxers.
This gives you all the freedom in the world to min max as much as your Players.
I also highly encourage non-Golarian, homebrew campaigns with Pathfinder. While Golarion and the APs are REALLY WELL done, it's Much easier to power balance as mentioned, in a homebrew. And it just gives more freedom for you as a GM. Plus you can focus on the things you want to focus on.
Yep, easier in a homebrew, or an adventure set in Golarion far away from whatever has been covered. I ran my Isgerian adventure where players started as peasants, there was never a problem with balance. They worked their way up, became actual adventurers and steadily, not drastically increased in power. I could watch what I threw at them, they could respond with what they had. No one could be a magical crafter and fill all the body slots because no one had any exposure to magical crafting. Isger doesn't have that industry, it is close to collapse, not opulence.
Sound advice there anvil.
Th game is about optimization to some extent. It is a numbers game. The difference is where you draw the line. Having certain very high ability scores but some penalties (below 10) is quite enjoyable for some gamers. Choosing the right feats to make your character good at what they do, pair it with a high ability score and they are rocking in whichever is their specialty. The magic items give you that nice little boost. Certain gaming groups do place great emphasis on optimizing all the way to having every single item tailored to fit their character as perfectly as possible. There is no right or wrong choice there, its just a matter of preference. It is however much less heroic to mow every enemy down with a chain gun as opposed to stealthily killing every single one with a fork.
In regards to controlling powergamers, there are already certain good suggstions. Another thing you could do is mess with the classes, shave away certain abilities or bonuses the class gives. MIn regards to magic items, you could do the thing of running it like original 2nd ed. Magic items exist but not magic item shops. If they want the items, take the risk. Be heroic/villainous/crafty, get out there. If they want to go the path of crafting, certainly allow them to. The difference would be however, rolling it back to 3.5. Xp cost, time taken, etc. Or, you could play with how you want crafting to work in your game and tell the players in advance.
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Since we all know and agree there are HUGE balance issues, and min/maxed optimized characters with insanely unbalanced abilities are very easy to create...
Universal statements are always wrong.
Pathfinder doesn't have balance issues and a problem with power gamers? Not at all?
Pathfinder doesn't have balance issues and a problem with power gamers? Not at all?
No more than every other system that exists.
Pathfinder doesn't have balance issues and a problem with power gamers? Not at all?
Not the way we play it.
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Pathfinder doesn't have balance issues and a problem with power gamers? Not at all?Not the way we play it.
Well that's always the big caviate. But it should also be people's goal with whatever system they use.
Pathfinder doesn't have balance issues and a problem with power gamers? Not at all?Not the way we play it.
I say Pathfinder has very little balance issues. Some players have "I must win" mentality and will try to bamboozle GMs into accepting circumspect interpretations of the rules in order to give themselves an unfair advantage. This intrudes on the fun of the other players.