The smell says he went that away like 2 days ago...Round and round we go, where Baal stops, only Mork knows.Pardon me, I seem to have lost my orc. Don't suppose you've seen him? Big fellow, tall, green, carries an axe, doesn't talk so well....
It's distressing I didn't notice. I must be getting acclimated.
Ah well. Back on the trail I guess. He shouldn't be hard to find, just follow the path of snapped trees and rent opponents....
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Think I added cleave and improved cleave when I leveled, armor is +1 full plate, +1 mith sheild of bashing, +1 keen guisame, got a "custom" magic item "thorm body" CL3 as spell at will, (think I paid about 4k for it), human Kellid, stats rolled, Gorim Diety. If there are errors this was the first PF character I ever made, without direction and without reading a book, if there are errors here I didnt catch em and neither did the DM (or he didnt care)
nothing in this was fabricated, or lied about, and do you have a point with this or are you still just trying to make the same point
that being "the guy is new to PF and does not know what he is talking about and he's stupid so there! neener neener neener!"
Just because I am new and inexpirenced with PF does not mean that the arguements do not hold water.
You are right but it fits nicely into my point that due to your inexperience (and based on previous statements made your GM as well) you can not and should not make any blanket statements in regards to "powergaming" and the fairness of your adventuring compatriots. I can tell just by looking that your character is just wrong...if the GM allows it so be it, but I also don't see anything that gives you RP value and not combat value.
Keep in mind you also can't take 2 feats per level EVER with any class so not sure how you did that, and I am not even sure you can take a pre-req at the same time as taking another feat...I think you need to take a pre-req the level before you take that higher level feat.
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Keep in mind you also can't take 2 feats per level EVER with any class
Well, barring Human anything or a Fighter, both at 1st level.
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Yeah, human fighter gets three feats. :P
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Think I added cleave and improved cleave when I leveled, armor is +1 full plate, +1 mith sheild of bashing, +1 keen guisame, got a "custom" magic item "thorm body" CL3 as spell at will, (think I paid about 4k for it), human Kellid, stats rolled, Gorim Diety. If there are errors this was the first PF character I ever made, without direction and without reading a book, if there are errors here I didnt catch em and neither did the DM (or he didnt care)
nothing in this was fabricated, or lied about, and do you have a point with this or are you still just trying to make the same point
that being "the guy is new to PF and does not know what he is talking about and he's stupid so there! neener neener neener!"
And again, custom wondrous item. Gee, looks like there is a reccuring picture right there.
The problem isn't that you are new and inexperienced. Stop playing the poor bullied victim.The problem here is that you are speaking about the system, stating it is broken, people are playing it wrong, powergamers should be under control, and quoting things without context as if you understood it with even the slightest of a veteran's insight.
That's the same as a random guy entering a cockpit, pressing some buttons, and finally declaring to an assembly of pilots that the plane officially can't fly.
Then being told later that it was actually a space shuttle.
Just because I am new and inexpirenced with PF does not mean that the arguements do not hold water.
Actually, yes. This is exactly why your arguments have no weight. You admittedly have a bad DM and can't even build a character right for the time ; so stating cornerstone "optimized" builds using several splat books at the same time as broken without knowing the ways to counter them isn't helping your credibility.
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Yeah, human fighter gets three feats. :P
I was talking like at level 8. No class gets 2 feats, unless I missed something...
Nothing in this character was for RP ability, as I mentioned way earlyer this character was primarily made to stop (or stomp... heh) a higher level barb built for max crit damage, if I did put feats/skills etc. into RP he would have wiped the walls with me if it came down to that.
Eh based on what I see...you would be the one getting whomped at that level.
Yeah, human fighter gets three feats. :PI was talking like at level 8.
Missed that specification, sorry. No, can't think of any class that gets a bonus feat at that level. Monk maybe, but I can't look from work.
ossian666, you have many a valid points. I just wanted to give that nod to you before I started my babble.
For controlling 'power gamers'...some more things have come to mind. Are you considering them power gamers because they know the ins and outs of the rules better in some respects than you?
Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to be terse. What I am trying to do is point out that the GM should be at least a little more prepared than the players. If not you should at least be quick enough on your feet to head them off.
I fell victim to players who took advantage of my campaign. I had set them on a mission to map the areas they passed through while they adventured. They were given a ship as a means for doing it quicker and as a down payment.
They used the ship to start a trade business that netted them more money than most adventurers would see in 20 levels. They did all this within a single level advancement.
The next thing I knew they were putting in orders for magic items to boost them beyond normal encounter dangers.
I brought them back down to a manageable level without having to increase the CR of their encounters with several plot insertions.
One: The food stuff they took to Alkinstar was meant for Absolam (where they started), so now Absolam was going to starve in the near future because of them. If they didn't correct this they were going to be brought up on charges and killed. Their solution was to come to an agreement with the inhabitants of the forests of the land to gain more farm land for the city.
Two: The mage whom they placed their order with took the gold for services he was going to render. He told them it would take at least 6 months and they agreed. When they returned he told them he had been robbed of the magic items and the gold.
Without the items they ordered and the gold they had originally gained, they had to start again. This time people were wise to them. It also made it difficult for them to negotiate for the land (seeing as how they had concentrated more on battle and defense than anything else).
The lesson? Play to their weaknesses, not their strengths. Broken or not, as a GM you can find or create a weakness for the players.
I am curious Baal... Have you gone to your GM with some of the good advice we offered? If so how did he respond?
Also I hope you can understand the frustration many here are having with your arguments. I will cut you a break since you are new and I know how much a confrontational attitude in others can cause you to lash out angrily in ways that undermine your own arguments. I have been there myself. The best piece of advice I can offer you right now is to stop arguing and step back from the fray. Think about your stance and that of others. Take your time with it... the internet isn't going away any time soon. When you can clearly see and understand where you derailed. That's the right time to rejoin the war of words. Also remember often others will use side topics as well as attacks to derail you. Also remember (and this is hard for me as well) you don't have to win every argument. You just need to get a coherent point across and listen to advice.
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I am curious Baal... Have you gone to your GM with some of the good advice we offered? If so how did he respond?
He did this at one point much earlier in the thread, then reported that the GM's response was "Don't listen to the people on the forums, they're all powergamers".
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I am curious Baal... Have you gone to your GM with some of the good advice we offered? If so how did he respond?
Also I hope you can understand the frustration many here are having with your arguments. I will cut you a break since you are new and I know how much a confrontational attitude in others can cause you to lash out angrily in ways that undermine your own arguments. I have been there myself. The best piece of advice I can offer you right now is to stop arguing and step back from the fray. Think about your stance and that of others. Take your time with it... the internet isn't going away any time soon. When you can clearly see and understand where you derailed. That's the right time to rejoin the war of words. Also remember often others will use side topics as well as attacks to derail you. Also remember (and this is hard for me as well) you don't have to win every argument. You just need to get a coherent point across and listen to advice.
Like I stated on like page 2...I didn't come here and I don't come to these boards to belittle or demean people.
We all came here initially to help someone deal with a "powergamer", but the turn this thread took was solely in response to the approach taken by the OP. A lot of us really should get a life and stop reading every thread and post and FAQ and Errata and book that Paizo has to offer, but we don't so collectively we are a walking, talking wealth of Pathfinder Knowledge. If it was just one of us I'd understand that the argument was petty and going no where, but when you have some of the more recognizable names posting in this thread to not only help you but point out where the confusion and misunderstanding may have come from I think it may be time to stop and say..."Maybe they are right."
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I am curious Baal... Have you gone to your GM with some of the good advice we offered? If so how did he respond?He did this at one point much earlier in the thread, then reported that the GM's response was "Don't listen to the people on the forums, they're all powergamers".
Because obviously, a DM or a player can't learn from what people have to say on what to do, what not to do, and how you may counter anything with a mature answer so everyone in the game has fun and doesn't feel gimped.
Sheesh, people on the Internet are so playing it wrong.
Talk to this DM again. Say him you got awesome advice on GMing on Internet, and quickly state that the first one is "no f~#*in' custom magic items".
After all, everyone knows sticking to core magic items (instead of, you know, abusing the system) is top class powergaming advice. If he keeps demeaning potential advice as stinky suggestions from dirty powergamers, do yourself a favor and start GMing the game. People on these boards will be happy to help for any issue you have with the game.
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I am curious Baal... Have you gone to your GM with some of the good advice we offered? If so how did he respond?He did this at one point much earlier in the thread, then reported that the GM's response was "Don't listen to the people on the forums, they're all powergamers".Because obviously, a DM or a player can't learn from what people have to say on what to do, what not to do, and how you may counter anything with a mature answer so everyone in the game has fun and doesn't feel gimped.
Sheesh, people on the Internet are so playing it wrong.
Talk to this DM again. Say him you got awesome advice on GMing on Internet, and quickly state that the first one is "no f~@$in' custom magic items".
After all, everyone knows sticking to core magic items (instead of, you know, abusing the system) is top class powergaming advice. If he keeps demeaning potential advice as stinky suggestions from dirty powergamers, do yourself a favor and start GMing the game. People on these boards will be happy to help for any issue you have with the game.
Whoa Whoa that is NOT the first advice we have...Don't use rolled stats, don't use advanced races and learn the rules is the advice we gave first!
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lol here's your proof b
Re: crafting, ok here was the thread I was talking about...
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz637e?So-a-5-weapon-for-2667-GP
I wasnt wrong at all about it, sure its only getting a 50k item for around 3k, sure a 4th level wizard would need a lot of starting capitol to create wish items, but the rules are still broken when it comes to crafting, of particular interest was this part from diego... (mist here's where the money comes from as well...)
A use activate whetstone of greater magic weapon would cost 120.000 gp, have a DC of 25, +5 for overcasting: DC 30.
A "common" wizard with 18 stating intelligence and skill focus in spellcraft would be capable to make one at level 8 with ease (base int raised to 20, +2 int circlet = +6 for intelligence, +3 for the feat, +3 as it is a class skill, 8 rank in the skill = +20 skill bonus).
So your 4 party members chip in 15.000 gp each at level 8 and get to have all their weapons enchanted to +5 constantly, leaving the space for plenty of interesting enchantment on their weapons.
The same wizard would have to wait for another 12 levels before casting the same spell by hand.
And note that he is not really trying to push it. With the right trait/feat he could do the same thing at a way lower level.broken... simply... broken.
I would consider the three examples you mention above to either be loopholes or outright violation of the rules.
For the custom-made caster-level 20 shield staff with minimum charges that the magus uses as a +5 weapon: This can only be made by a level 20 character. I would see no reason for a level 20 wizard to waste his time making 3k gold staffs for sale in magic item shops or custom made. In the 3 days it would a lvl 20 wizard craft such a weapon, he could create his own demi-plane made entirely of gemstones and platnum. If any player expected to buy customized magic items like that, I would tell him custom items are by commission only, and the price is going to be set by crafter as an opportunity cost, (ie if the crafter decided to do something else with his time instead of crafting this custom item, how much would the crafter make. That +5% would be the cost of the item. But, in general, player's don't get to create custom magic items and tell the GM that the Magic Shop sells them. The GM sets the inventory for any and all stores.
For the level 4 wizard making wish items: the CL on that would be 17 (see the Luck blade). So the DC to create a custom item of Wish would be DC 32 [CL 17 + 5 (item creation) + 5 (can't cast wish) + 5 (isn't CL 17).] At level 4, the wizard's spellcraft can be, at most 17. [4(ranks)+3(class skill)+3(skill focus)+5(20 Int)+2(Headband of Int)]. Assuming you are making a 1-use wish item the base cost of the item would be 32,650 [9x17x50+25,000(material component], and the crafting cost would be 28,825 (9x17x50/2+25,000). So, the level 4 would have a 30% success rate on his roll, the item crafting proces would take 33 days, and the crafter has a 45% chance to craft a cursed item. This means, on average, it would cost 96,083 gold and take 110 days and create 1.5 cursed items to make a 1-use wish item
The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item. Failing this check means that the item does not function and the materials and time are wasted. Failing this check by 5 or more results in a cursed item.
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by 5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting its prerequisites.
But wait!
For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell but not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself.
So, you can't make a scroll with a CL higher that your own, but if instead of calling it a scroll, you call it a "One-time-use Wonderous Item" you can? That is loophole abuse.
Same goes for Greater Magic Weapon whetstone. If you can't create a Scroll or Wand that does it, if you just call it a "Wonderous Item," you can break all the rules?
This is not evidence that the rules are a problem. This is evidence that rules-lawyers post on the forums.
Now that I have refuted your post, let me agree with you.
I think the Custom Magic Item rules are intended for GMs who want to add custom items to the game, not for players with item creation feats. Note that the pricing of magic items even indicates that these are guidelines, not rules, which indicates GM discretion. These are rules that require an experienced GM to make sure the players arn't rule-lawyering their way to being overpowered.
There are other sets of rules like this. Custom Race Creation springs to mind. Also, the Words of Power spell-system. I don't feel that these rules are un-balanced by RAW, but they can be abused by munchkinning rules lawyers, and it can create a headache for GM's who arn't experienced with the rules.
It is hard to be the GM. You need to balance keeping your players happy with having fun yourself. You need to balance the amount of work you put into a campaign with the amount of enjoyment you get out. You need to know a huge number of rules, or, at least, trust your players when they tell you what a rule is. You need to balance letting your players do whatever they want with letting your players go out-of-control.
But the answer isn't to bring down the hammer. If you invoke Rule 0 constantly, if you impose your idea of what is power-appropriate, if you railroad the story, if you punish players that disagree with you, you will face a player-revolt. They will either walk away from your game, or they will intentionally try to break the story of your game, or they will try to rule-abuse even more to compensate for the unfair treatment they feel they are getting at your hands.
The answer also isn't to blame the system. As has been stated over and over again, this isn't a rules problem. Its a person problem. Paizo created a vast, complicated, and sometimes unwieldly set of rules so that people could play how they wanted. Not everyone plays the same, and if people play differently at your table, someone gets mad.
The answer is mature and honest communication with your players. Tell them your expectations. Tell them you will reward them for a good backstory. Tell them that if they take obscure non-optimized feats, you will create situations where their talents could come in handy. Tell them if you trust them not to go crazy, you will allow them to design a few custom magical items, if they want.
And if one of them starts to hog the spotlight, tell them in private that you want everyone to participate, and that you would appreciate it if they could help the other players contribute more. Then you can turn that person into an ally. They can help players who are poor at building characters become better. They can encourage shy players to take a more active role in the party.
Listen to the Gamer's Guide to Problem Player types. They discuss this topic (and more), from the viewpoint of Optimizers who also GM.
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Rolled stats actually often run counter to minmaxing a lot of the time, in my opinion. It's much less likely you'll get any 18s.
Heh, my experience has been exactly the opposite, but let's not turn this into a Roll vs. Pointbuy thread, thanks.
baalbamoth,
The staff magus build that is referenced in the thread and the shield staff have a few things that were missed.
The feat Craft Staff cannot be taken before you are 11th level, so even if the Magus can use it as a magic weapon based on the caster level of the spell in the staff at 10th level, he cannot make one like it himself at 10th level.
The approach for the Shield Staff is a powergaming and/or being a munchkin approach, where they increased the amount of charges needed to cast a 1st level spell from 1 charge per spell to 3 charges per spell, simply to reduce the cost of the one spell staff.
The intention of the magic creation guidelines are being violated with the above approach for staff/magic weapon creation. The same way that a use activated True Strike sword/ring/amulet/etc. is not acceptable to any reasonable GM.
Paizo inherited some magic creation guidelines and prices from the previous editions, where the earlier ones didn’t have a pricing guideline. That is why they are guidelines and not hard and fast rules. Perhaps if/when Paizo reboots into Pathfinder 2nd edition, they will be able to address the potential item creation issues.
If I had a player that wanted to abuse the system with such a staff (and for some reason it was in my game - maybe gotten drunk and taken advantage of :)), there would be a fair chance that once their enemies learned of the staff (Detect Magic observation at an Inn, previous fights, etc..) and that it was only that effective in his hands, they would likely sunder it - a hardness 5 item with 10 hit points (15 points of damage in one hit destroys it) wouldn’t last long, likely be sundered in the first attempt.
I was avoiding posting this but hell were almost at 1000 posts and I doubt he's going to get this far...
your all kinda right about my DM, he is great in some areas, he is a great RP-er, he can switch from gruff dwarf to absent minded oracle freely and seem completely convincing, he is also very good at describing and setting up scenes. but it seems to me he lacks a lot when it comes to basic DMing skills.
The rules will hopefully come in time. It is good that he is good at telling stories. I really had to work on that.
for example, we have spent three gaming sessions, 15 hrs, just getting from one adventure town to the other. why? I have no idea. at least half of this time was spent him looking things up in a book, rolling a few dice, then going back to the book while the players all sat around twiddling dice. a more clear example would be, one of the characters rolled very low on a homebrew rule regarding seasickness, meaning the character had very weak sea legs and got sea sick easily, so with an abundance of money, she wanted to buy a very strong sea sickness potion.now if it were me... I would have thought "well were in a large port city, a overly priced but more effective sea sickness dram would be a big seller to an alchemist, so wtf, 50 gp per week, roll a d20 and as long as you dont roll a 1 you dont suffer any sea sickness."
but my DM litterally takes an hour and twenty minutes (I actually looked at my watch here)to look up how a improved sea sickness potion could be made. I'm not sure if he was also looking up other adventure stuff or other rules, but players would be asking him questions and he would completely ignore them. twice I think I said "well I think we got every thing we need, lets go!" and on the second time he snaps at me "shut up, dont you see I'm trying to figure this out!"
Sometime it is ok to ignore the rules especially when you are using homebrew rules because the official rules make not work with them well. 1 hour is too long to spend on a something. Sometimes you just have to make a ruling and move on. After the game you check to make sure so that you have an answer for the next session.
so I plotted differently, Some of the guys agreed to playing PF on another night, I'd have to learn how to run PF, but so much is different in this game than the games I'm used to, that powerlevel no such thing as balance thing has me stymed, and honestly I dont like the high magic in this game, I dont like spell casters having d6 for hp, I dont like a lot of things, but if I do want to show this guy and his group what good DMing is like, I either have to change things to a way I'm more familar with or set very strict limits, or?
anyway got work to do will be on later, give me some suggestions...
The game is very much high magic, and it will take a while to learn the rules well.
Start at level 1. If you have any questions come here.
lol here's your proof b
Re: crafting, ok here was the thread I was talking about...
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz637e?So-a-5-weapon-for-2667-GP
I wasnt wrong at all about it, sure its only getting a 50k item for around 3k, sure a 4th level wizard would need a lot of starting capitol to create wish items, but the rules are still broken when it comes to crafting, of particular interest was this part from diego... (mist here's where the money comes from as well...)
A use activate whetstone of greater magic weapon would cost 120.000 gp, have a DC of 25, +5 for overcasting: DC 30.
A "common" wizard with 18 stating intelligence and skill focus in spellcraft would be capable to make one at level 8 with ease (base int raised to 20, +2 int circlet = +6 for intelligence, +3 for the feat, +3 as it is a class skill, 8 rank in the skill = +20 skill bonus).
So your 4 party members chip in 15.000 gp each at level 8 and get to have all their weapons enchanted to +5 constantly, leaving the space for plenty of interesting enchantment on their weapons.
The same wizard would have to wait for another 12 levels before casting the same spell by hand.
And note that he is not really trying to push it. With the right trait/feat he could do the same thing at a way lower level.
That staff is not doing 20d6+40. It is also subject to GM approval since it is a custom item. That means the GM has to set the price for the item. He can also just say no. The magic item creation section is made of guidelines not rules. If that gets into a game at that price it is on the GM.
In short if the item is not in the book as an official item and it is allowed or priced wrong it is the GM's fault, not the system.
Ossian- an 8th level character has 33k wealth, spending 15k IS half, each character effectively owns 1/4 of a magic item. is it rules lawyering? yes it is.
but to go a bit further, what if rather than new 8th level characters, you have 4 8th level characters that decide to sell the magical gear they have in exchage to purchace/create an item like this? would that be impossible as well? how would a DM stop that other than to have the characters robbed or to have the items only be purchaced for a value greatly below the actual value?
and what do you mean its not printed... its right here...
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems/magicItemCreation.html
I guess you did not read this when you went to that link. That is why in my other posted I told you to read and do research instead of just repeating what other people say.
Magic Item Gold Piece Values
Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to compare the new item to an item that is already priced, using that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values.
Think I added cleave and improved cleave when I leveled, armor is +1 full plate, +1 mith sheild of bashing, +1 keen guisame, got a "custom" magic item "thorm body" CL3 as spell at will, (think I paid about 4k for it), human Kellid, stats rolled, Gorim Diety. If there are errors this was the first PF character I ever made, without direction and without reading a book, if there are errors here I didnt catch em and neither did the DM (or he didnt care)
nothing in this was fabricated, or lied about, and do you have a point with this or are you still just trying to make the same point
that being "the guy is new to PF and does not know what he is talking about and he's stupid so there! neener neener neener!"
Just because I am new and inexpirenced with PF does not mean that the arguements do not hold water.
Your arguments are not holding water because they are not relevant with regard to how the game was designed.
You have been consistently wrong with magic item creation. You are focusing on AC and damage which I have shown to be a much smaller factor than you are expecting it to be.
You quote what you see others post, but because you are not experienced with the game you don't know which of their post are not rules legal, and which ones don't really hold weight due to other rules that do exist. That allows myself and others to pick your post apart.
Gm like I said has been running this campaign for four years (I know its true I've seen the notes on each weekly play session going back in dates.) and this is only one of three (or is it four?) weekly PF games he runs.
Nothing in this character was for RP ability, as I mentioned way earlyer this character was primarily made to stop (or stomp... heh) a higher level barb built for max crit damage, if I did put feats/skills etc. into RP he would have wiped the walls with me if it came down to that.
happy about it? nope... but its what I got, and I still managed to write a two page history. ;-)
Has he been using Pathfinder rules the entire time?
I can't how someone can run 4 games a week for 4 years, and it take them an hour to look rules up. I don't know every rule in the book, but I can at least go to the right chapter 99% of the time. Even in my beginning GM stages I had a general idea of where to go.
He also should have known your character was not legal.
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Nothing in this character was for RP ability, as I mentioned way earlyer this character was primarily made to stop (or stomp... heh) a higher level barb built for max crit damage, if I did put feats/skills etc. into RP he would have wiped the walls with me if it came down to that.
Whoa... let's go back to this for a second.
Let me get this straight... you are saying that you created this character specifically to be able to win at PvP vs. another player in your group?
Let me ask this again... you created this character with the intent of being able to defeat another member of your party? "If it came to that."
Wow... um.... just wow.
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I used to play with people like this. PVP was a constant concern even in non-evil campaigns.
Notice I said used to.
I used to play with people like this. PVP was a constant concern even in non-evil campaigns.
Notice I said used to.
This used to happen ALL THE TIME in my groups games. There was almost always a fight at one point or another. Rarely did it result in a PC death (usually one or both of the characters left and the players re-rolled). Personally I think it had to do with our age. As we have gotten older this hasn't happened lately.
The last time we came close. We kicked our ninja out of the party. He kept screwing us in Carrion Crown with villiage rep by being an A-hole, he couldn't find traps(what we hired him for), and asked THE SHERIFF where he could buy poison. We ended up giving him enough gold to get a carravan back home.
The actual player laughed and re-rolled a more congenial character(that had trapfinding).
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Nothing in this character was for RP ability, as I mentioned way earlyer this character was primarily made to stop (or stomp... heh) a higher level barb built for max crit damage, if I did put feats/skills etc. into RP he would have wiped the walls with me if it came down to that.
Whoa... let's go back to this for a second.
Let me get this straight... you are saying that you created this character specifically to be able to win at PvP vs. another player in your group?
Let me ask this again... you created this character with the intent of being able to defeat another member of your party? "If it came to that."
Wow... um.... just wow.
I don't expect everyone to go back so I will sum up what happened for you.
The "powergamer" was a Lizardfolk Barbarian focusing on Crit and the Crit feats, so his damage was pretty high. His weakness was obviously his Will save (crappy "powergamer" eh?). Well the GM decided that the best way to "take care of" the "powergamer" was to use his weak Will save against him. Rather than doing what any RATIONAL GM would do and maybe put him to sleep...he decided to use the Barbarian against the party and Charmed him. So you can see where this whole thing comes unraveled and where I start pointing at the GM for being the reason for all these issues and not the players?
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lol here's your proof /b/
There, fixed it for you.
Porphy- heh our group avoided that stuff not because players didnt try to bring it in, but because our DM refused to let anything into the game he could imagine would break it. we'd have to wait months to use a new class book. again, I dont mind the iorn hand as long as it directly serves a purpose. further, because those game breaking mechanics didnt really get into the game till after 12-13th level,In our campaigns we took forever to get above "name" level, but it was, as I said, possible to accumulate quite "level-inappropriate" stuff in part because of that.
and the DM could completely control what spells you had access to, that never entered into our games either <snipped to bring two things close together> not possible within a ruleset that is so open. we'll see...
This is the issue;
1) in quite a number of ways, the old-school rules were actually more open, and open to interpretation.
2) Your romanticize of the romantic "Heroic Age" of gaming in no small part is directly related to how you experienced that era - under a DM that did exactly what people recommend that DMs do in this era with 3.x and PF rules to control things - limit access to things that will or could "break" the game, play at the level (including experience level, but also magic/equipment level) that suits the kind of style that will work for that group, and so on.
You continually point to a certain type of play and build-style in this era as not your cup of tea, but then you know that the exact same thing has existed almost from the beginning of D&D, and what is needed is a good DM and a group of players who work together well to accomodate the style of play that suits the group and not go beyond it. The sort of style you remember fondly from your own early days of gaming, but which was largely the result not of a set of rules (because, like you said, other groups you were aware of were doing all kinds of things), but a DM willing to say "no" to spells and books and magic items and so on and so forth that he thought would ruin the kind of game the group was enjoying, and a group of players who were happy with that because they wanted to continue that style of play, it was the style they enjoyed.
So, I'm imagining, no Girdles of Storm Giant Strength (right out of "core"). Not to mention official modules published with obscene amounts of wealth (25 mil GP in one TSR module, with little apparent conception of how extra-ordinarily creative players will be in insuring they get to haul it out; millions of GP in the Bloodstone module with the deep dwarves; apparently the writer figured the PCs would generously give all this wealth to the Sniffers, but then they don't know PCs, and these are just two examples, admittedly among the worse, that come to mind). Official treasures, which set the "tone" for what groups thought were appropriate to emulate, had virtually no conception of anything even aproximating "wealth by level." Then there were official (again, I'm talking TSR, not even 3rd party) published adventures wherin they would say "Lashan's lair has a spellbook containing every wizard spell in the PH for the PCs to find" (this happened more than once). So then, as well as now, DMs had to use their judgement. Just as you describe yours doing back in the day. Nothing but this same solution will apply today to PF - there will be no rules-mechanical solution that can substitute for DM (and group) judgement. You're looking for a treasure that doesn't exist.
Now, I'll also admit that this remains my favorite era of play and it's the one I have the fondest memories of - including of campaigns that lasted a long time without getting past 8th level.
But a lot of the reason, I think, for old-time gamers remembering this as the "best ever" has to do with how new everything was for us - it was a fresh experience for us, whatever we did, and nothing will recapture that.
Getting back to Pathfinder, and even high-level play (a rarity), the other week they announced there will be a PF Baba Yaga's Hut. Well, as interested as I might be to play that. . .it will, for me and people like me (but not for countless others) - well, "been there, done that," - not just once, but two or three times. I will inevitably compare the PF version of Baba Yaga and her Hut to Roger Moore's version. In a way this will be unfair to the Paizo version, no matter how good it is (even if I say "wow, they out-did that one!"), because no matter what it cannot meet the sheer excitement of having braved it the first time.
My point being is that I think you're looking for a way to recapture an experience that can never really be recaptured, and hoping that rules can be crafted that will allow you (and enforce on other groups) to recapture this experience (and through so crafting the rules "just so" on other groups, share this experience with them, so that they will, perhaps, find the same joy you did). But you can't get there from here. It will never be possible for you (or me) to replicate the experiences we had in our early campaigns. We can only get other kinds of enjoyment out of the game.
And this is not to say at all that "this kind of experience is lost forever for today's gamer's" - I've been saying it's gone for us[; but for countless other people, their next experience with a gritty campaign under a good DM will be their first (or among their first). Their next experience in Baba Yaga's hut will be their first. A lot of things will be a new experience for them. That kind of investment and excitement is fresh for them. And one day they'll be old-timers talking about how things aint the same and back in their day they had such-and-such an experience under the 1st edition PF rules with a great DM, and everyone 'now days' (a generation from now) playing under PF 3.95E just don't grok it.
But really things haven't changed so much; by which I mean there really hasn't been any 'decline' in play-styles. We're just (perhaps) exposed to more of it because back then we only had the gamer grapevine (whose operations were mysterious), and today everything's on the intertubes.
Nothing in this character was for RP ability, as I mentioned way earlyer this character was primarily made to stop (or stomp... heh) a higher level barb built for max crit damage, if I did put feats/skills etc. into RP he would have wiped the walls with me if it came down to that.
Whoa... let's go back to this for a second.
Let me get this straight... you are saying that you created this character specifically to be able to win at PvP vs. another player in your group?
Let me ask this again... you created this character with the intent of being able to defeat another member of your party? "If it came to that."
Wow... um.... just wow.
I don't expect everyone to go back so I will sum up what happened for you.
The "powergamer" was a Lizardfolk Barbarian focusing on Crit and the Crit feats, so his damage was pretty high. His weakness was obviously his Will save (crappy "powergamer" eh?). Well the GM decided that the best way to "take care of" the "powergamer" was to use his weak Will save against him. Rather than doing what any RATIONAL GM would do and maybe put him to sleep...he decided to use the Barbarian against the party and Charmed him. So you can see where this whole thing comes unraveled and where I start pointing at the GM for being the reason for all these issues and not the players?
Aaaaah, alright then. So this WHOLE issue has nothing to do with 'powergaming' or Pathfinder being a broken or flawed system.
It's all just a really bad powder-keg combination of gaming group issues. I wouldn't also put this all on the GM, though he's certainly responsible. Any player that EVER creates a character with the intent of PvP has started down a very disruptive and unfortunate path.
Add to this an unfortunate lack of knowledge regarding basic system rules (especially from the DM), and you are asking for trouble.
So essentially... this player got into a poor group, mainly because there aren't a lot of other options in his area. Fair enough.
But then he gets it in his head that he has to create a character to fight the parties resident beatstick. Due to his lack of experience and obvious lack of knowledge and research... he creates a subpar character that isn't even rules legal.
Then the kicker... he likely had to fight the lizardfolk beatstick and lost... horribly.
Que "redface" and corresponding nerdrage... and he brings it here.
Good to know!
PVP was a constant concern even in non-evil campaigns
Here is the closest I got to PK in any campaign: We were outdoors wandering in the wilderness and stumbled on a band of goblins. I was playing a (then 7th/8th level) dual-class Fighter/Magic-User(dual class ftw!). The party's paladin had charged into the mob of goblins (I am pretty sure they were), trampling me a bit as he charged forward and I cast fireball. My intent was to just get the goblins but the spread effect caught the Paladin in the blast as an "oops back" (it couldn'ta killed him, but I was annoyed at getting trampled so I "singed" him).
Wiped out the goblins good, but the Paladin player was pissed and decided to charge mine (my char, at the time, was chaotic - and his, obviously, LG; there had been some IC friction, but no real OOC friction. But the player was as PO'd at getting fried as I was at being trampled). He charged me. . .I took off (we were both on horseback). I decided to shoot an arrow at him. The DM ruled I'd have to turn my mount to the side to get a good shot at him (we knew nothing of "Parthian Shot" tactics at the time), which allowed the Paladin to close on me. It woulda been ugly for me once he caught me, but other characters intervened and in the end cooler heads prevailed.
It was only later I realized the DM had forgotten to roll damage on the Paladin's horse. And had forgotten that since I was mounted, too, I'd have been hard to trample in the first place. All in all it was (among) our worst-run encounters, both by DM and players (it was a long night).
Anyhow and also shortly after that the player with the Paladin decided Paladin wasn't for him and rolled one of these new-fangled Barbarians (UA had just come out), and we basically retired the characters in that campaign and started a new one.
lol here's your proof /b/There, fixed it for you.
Porphy- heh our group avoided that stuff not because players didnt try to bring it in, but because our DM refused to let anything into the game he could imagine would break it. we'd have to wait months to use a new class book. again, I dont mind the iorn hand as long as it directly serves a purpose. further, because those game breaking mechanics didnt really get into the game till after 12-13th level,In our campaigns we took forever to get above "name" level, but it was, as I said, possible to accumulate quite "level-inappropriate" stuff in part because of that.and the DM could completely control what spells you had access to, that never entered into our games either <snipped to bring two things close together> not possible within a ruleset that is so open. we'll see...This is the issue;
1) in quite a number of ways, the old-school rules were actually more open, and open to interpretation.
2) Your romanticize of the romantic "Heroic Age" of gaming in no small part is directly related to how you experienced that era - under a DM that did exactly what people recommend that DMs do in this era with 3.x and PF rules to control things - limit access to things that will or could "break" the game, play at the level (including experience level, but also magic/equipment level) that suits the kind of style that will work for that group, and so on.
You continually point to a certain type of play and build-style in this era as not your cup of tea, but then you know that the exact same thing has existed almost from the beginning of D&D, and what is needed is a good DM and a group of players who work together well to accomodate the style of play that suits the group and not go beyond it. The sort of style you remember fondly from your own early days of gaming, but which was largely the result not of a set of rules (because, like you said, other groups you were aware of were doing all kinds of...
Very well said! That certainly cuts to the heart of one of the OP's issues, I think.
For that, I hereby bequeath you with an honourary toque (no need to sew it yourself!) and invite you to share a brewski should you ever leave the god-forsaken oppressive heat of Texas for Canada.
Oh, and my igloo totally has a hot tub. Best way to spend a cold winter night with a brewski in hand!
Just remember to bring some cheese from Wisconsin on your way, eh?
For that, I hereby bequeath you with an honourary toque (no need to sew it yourself!) and invite you to share a brewski should you ever leave the god-forsaken oppressive heat of Texas for Canada.
Oh, and my igloo totally has a hot tub. Best way to spend a cold winter night with a brewski in hand!
Just remember to bring some cheese from Wisconsin on your way, eh?
Hoody-hoo! I'll treasure it always, and I'll certainly bring the cheese!
Cheesy builds, too? Or just the edible kind of cheese?
Yea that sums it up, but the GM kinda added fuel to the fire when he allowed such ridiculous things in his game...Advanced Races, Dice Rolls, Poor Decisions on how to handle melee powerhouses, etc.
Indeed. Just a bad situation all around... I'm sure Baal would have a very different opinion of PF if he had a better first experience with the game. A bad group would sour someone to ANY system.
Yea that sums it up, but the GM kinda added fuel to the fire when he allowed such ridiculous things in his game...Advanced Races, Dice Rolls, Poor Decisions on how to handle melee powerhouses, etc.Indeed. Just a bad situation all around... I'm sure Baal would have a very different opinion of PF if he had a better first experience with the game. A bad group would sour someone to ANY system.
That is true. Baal is not the first poster I have seen post like this. Normally I can tell the poster what his GM did wrong, but it seems Baal, just wants to be right since he is ignoring my advice, and continues to throw random hypotheticals out there. Little does he know, every example he has used I have seen a variant of it before. :)
I would suggest that Baal buy a published module, and then tweak it to his liking. That will give more time to focus on the rules.
For that, I hereby bequeath you with an honourary toque (no need to sew it yourself!) and invite you to share a brewski should you ever leave the god-forsaken oppressive heat of Texas for Canada.
Oh, and my igloo totally has a hot tub. Best way to spend a cold winter night with a brewski in hand!
Just remember to bring some cheese from Wisconsin on your way, eh?
Hoody-hoo! I'll treasure it always, and I'll certainly bring the cheese!
Cheesy builds, too? Or just the edible kind of cheese?
Can't get better than Wisconsin cheese, no matter what kind! I say, bring it on up!
Damnit, now I want to go to Wisconsin! My sister used to live there, and I live close to the US border in Northern Ontario... they advertise the Wisconsin Dells on our radio all the time. I want me some go-carts, waterparks, and cheese curds!
Where is that barbarian who is supposed to be entertaining me right now?
There are definitely many people who have strong opinions on this subject. This tells me that we are not alone. Does E.T. have this problem when they play Humans or Hamsters?
I can see it now...My hamster has been exposed to cosmic nuclear radiation and is now immune to needles and is smart enough to pick the lock of his cage. I have a bonus to stealth after having subdued the humans senses with my mutant musk. Now I shall escape my cage and set plan 9 in motion!
Damnit, now I want to go to Wisconsin! My sister used to live there, and I live close to the US border in Northern Ontario... they advertise the Wisconsin Dells on our radio all the time. I want me some go-carts, waterparks, and cheese curds!
hahaha! you're the second person today to pine to me about the cheese curds.
They used to have DUKWs at the Dells, I wonder if they still do.
Where is that barbarian who is supposed to be entertaining me right now?With Grod apparently MIA, Minsc and Boo stand ready:
I can see it now...My hamster has been exposed to cosmic nuclear radiation and is now immune to needles and is smart enough to pick the lock of his cage. I have a bonus to stealth after having subdued the humans senses with my mutant musk. Now I shall escape my cage and set plan 9 in motion!
As Minsc will be the first to tell you, Hamster-builds are too OP and should be disallowed.
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Where is that barbarian who is supposed to be entertaining me right now?With Grod apparently MIA, Minsc and Boo stand ready:I can see it now...My hamster has been exposed to cosmic nuclear radiation and is now immune to needles and is smart enough to pick the lock of his cage. I have a bonus to stealth after having subdued the humans senses with my mutant musk. Now I shall escape my cage and set plan 9 in motion!As Minsc will be the first to tell you, Hamster-builds are too OP and should be disallowed.
Not the eyes! And not the cabbages!
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Hamster-builds are too OP and should be disallowed.
Any good GM will ban them faster than Chiktikka Fastpaws.
Hamster's are fine, its house cats you gotta worry about. Crazy dex and stealth makes them perfect rogues that murder peasants with ease.
Hamsters go for the eyes better, and they are capable getting people to mend their change if they look at their burning stare.
Yea that sums it up, but the GM kinda added fuel to the fire when he allowed such ridiculous things in his game...Advanced Races, Dice Rolls, Poor Decisions on how to handle melee powerhouses, etc.Honestly I think it could have all been managed in game. Advanced races while on the whole superior to other races are not necessarily game breakers, neither are rolled stats (honestly this comes down to a preference more than a balance stance since between a good point buy player and a moderately lucky roller your important mods should never be more than 2-4 bonuses off.), I'll give you the poor decisions though on the whole he went about it wrong and really I don't particularly care for the entire idea of bringing in new players underleveled either from a balance stand point.
And when you couple that with abysmal system mastery on the part of both the DM and the OP it's not really surprising that they're having problems.
No need to come onto the boards and cry about the system being broken when you aren't even following the rules properly though.
+1