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And, I also don't believe you, like the whole band story, and all the rest of your stories that just keep getting invented as you need them.
I mean, this is an excellent example.
"I started in AD&D"
"Well I started at redbox!"
That's nothing! You know that guy Boromir? Yeah, he was mine. Then John Tolkien called me a stupid powergamer and ganked me with his OP gang of orcs. I called shenanigans. He booted me out of his stupid game and made my character a boorish dumbass in his stupid book.
Trhvmn- thats hilarious, you read my postings, then make the exact same point I had made, one dimentional characters who's players put little or no importance (skills feats stats etc) into backstory make one trick pony joke characters.... just like Grod.
Okay, you earned this.
*GIBBS SLAP*
Grod has been far more entertaining, and shown far more character and development, than anything you've posted thus far.
You know what, I'm making the call. You're Jealous. That's the totality of it. You're jealous and angry that we're not all agreeing with you being right in your jealousy. So now your plan's backfired and you're trying to weasel your way back to the top so everyone gets to be jealous of you, and you're mad it's not working so you're twisting people's words so they say what you want them to rather than what they actually said.
Childish. And you want us to believe you're 40-something? FAIL.
And the old "turnabout" tactic. Nice try but no go. You're not worth getting angry at.
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Grod have much depth.
Grod is son of Grod, who was also son of Grod, like that until first Grod.
Frist Grod was also orc, like Grod. Also Grod, like Grod.
He had axe, like Grod.
He was smart, like Grod.
So Grod has deep tradition.
Grod maintains the Grod line for the honour of Grod, and all Grods before Grod, and the ones after too. And the Grods before the ones that come later.
Some think they smarter than Grod, but Grod not think they smart like they think they think they smart.
While they read book, Grod swing axe.
Grod test axe against book many times.
Axe always wins.
Always bet on axe, and Grod.
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Wraith-
so your telling me the four armed alchemist/twf-2hf is what Paizo intended, the wildcaller with that eldeon shooting 36+ arrows a round, that was intended?
I'm not talking about "every possible loophole" I am talking about the loopholes with the giant neon flashing OP signs pointing to them.
sure I would like to see PF changed into something different, or to be completely honest I wish more players would find the joys the OSR gamers have known about since RPGs began.
I'm not sure what game your talking about other than I know its not HGS because thats still being sold, and new products come out quarterly.
Your 4 armed alchemist is out of bombs in like three rounds. If you throw the right creatures/opponents in the mix, he's not even going to finish much off. Send that guy against a fire elemental, see how it goes if he doesn't have the right discoveries. And if he does, more power to him. Not familiar with that eidolon build you mentioned, but a good rogue can sneak around most eidolons and knife a squishy summoner pretty quick. The only things I've ever seen that have been legitimately broken (say, the synthesist summoner when interpreted poorly) did get errata'd and FAQ'd to death to bring them back in line and make it clear what does and does not work.
The game where everyone's shoehorned into a specific mathmatical idea of "balance" is called 4E, and there's a reason I'm playing PF right now instead, and why they've already moved on to a new edition that's looking an awful lot like the one Paizo inherited. Everyone being mechanically identical with a nice flavor coating on top is boring, and people who know the system will still outclass those who don't.
By giving more feats than is norm in pathfinder (experimental at this stage), I allow players a dalliance in non combat stuff. Like the new party monk who has an insane sense motive.I am a little confused... Did someone claim the only way to role play was to make a crippled character? That seems to be the target of certain arguments?I believe the OP expressed frustration because taking feats such as Skill Focus: Profession (merchant), which he thought would be potentially helpful to add to a backstory, and thus support RP considerations, would make him less able to contribute in a group including those whose builds are more optimized. I'm pretty sure he went so far as to say that a feat or two like that ought to be required, and that those who choose only feats which contribute to their combat effectiveness do not meet his criteria for "roleplaying," because their backstories are (assumed to be) based on their builds, rather than vice-versa.
He also expressed disapproval of people dumping stats in the interest of optimization, particularly Charisma, because low stats are, in his experience, not frequently roleplayed; also, they are chosen for mechanical reasons, rather than backstory.
In some quarters, making sure your barbarian has at least 10 Cha (after racial adjustments?) and taking non-combat-related feats would be considered crippling a character, and in some games perhaps that would be a valid assessment. But the extremes of crippledness people (including myself) are talking about in some arguments are hyperbole.
Yep. sense motive so high he got bluffed multiple times by a fox spirit. Insanely high? Nope. Insanely inept? sounds closer to it.
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now many posters may very well be right, this might not be a game that many PF players want to play in. they like all those changes for the quick benifits they give the characters but to me, I think thats because they may have not played 2.0 and seen what real character progression is like, how it totally pays off as you advance in levels, the huge feeling of achievement you get when you get that d4 mage past 6th level, or when your 8th level fighter defeats some huge beast and (OMG!!!) gets a +3 intellegent sword, rather than walking to the corner store and picking one out of the 20 they got on the rack.
Dude, you use a lot of ad hominem. I was annoyed when people used it against you, but now, I'm surprised they've stayed civil this long.
I play Swords and Wizardry all the time. My last character in Pathfinder was a half-orc bard with a 16 Strength and 16 Charisma. He died because I put points into Intelligence instead of Constitution, and because I bought a warhorse instead of better armor. Both of these decisions were roleplaying-based, and even though they cost Sahak his life, I don't regret them.
Your roleplaying style seems extremely insufferable. Anybody who optimizes or makes a character concept you deem 'simplistic' or 'amateur' gets labelled a mindless powergamer. You don't seem to realize that most of the fun in roleplaying does not come from the huge backstory you've written, but how you actually present them. I half wonder if the players you deal with are actually good roleplayers, and you're just annoyed that they also like to have optimized stats that outshine your rogue with Profession (basket weaving).
I've seen countless excellent arguments against you get ignored. It's clear this isn't a debate anybody can win. It will eventually end in one of two ways: all of your 'opponents' realize this debate isn't going anywhere, or you claim everybody here is a hopeless min/maxer and leave.
You aren't convincing anybody of anything, since you refuse to give way on anything, and you certainly aren't going to be convinced when you don't acknowledge half the posts here.
The fact is, people can be powergamers and be roleplayers. People keep saying this. But whenever somebody gives an example, you either ignore it or nitpick it.
Not every character can be the lost king of Andoran or whatever. Some characters need to be closer to comic relief, to make the straight men straight. I played a CG goblin rogue in Rise of the Runelords. Tons of fun. He dealt 1 nonlethal in combat, but was incredibly stealthy, and he tended to steal the spotlight in roleplay. His backstory was basically "left his tribe because he wanted to be a longshank".
He had more backstory, but I invented that as I went along. For a while, he was just a loud goblin who played the bagpipes, occasionally sang, and hated baths. He still had a ton of roleplaying. Better still, his whacky antics underscored the heroic natures of the other party members, which was the real goal here. He was even sort of the catalyst for a romance! Sort of. Not really. Well, he was involved. Almost sabotaged it, really. Whatever.
I hate to be the guy who says "this post will probably be ignored" just so Baal will feel pressured to prove me wrong and pay attention to it, but I'm gonna do that, because he actually has yet to acknowledge one of my posts and I'm feelin' left out of the group. IT'S BECAUSE I'M A KOBOLD, ISN'T IT?! WE DON'T LIKE YOU HUMANS EITHER!
I've seen countless excellent arguments against you get ignored. It's clear this isn't a debate anybody can win. It will eventually end in one of two ways: all of your 'opponents' realize this debate isn't going anywhere, or you claim everybody here is a hopeless min/maxer and leave.
As I said back about a page... most of us are only still here for Grod. =D We argue until Baal goes to bed then stick around for funny stories.
Since when was a humour based character a problem anyway?
Tasslehoff (Dragonlance)
Merry and Pippin (LotR)
Hoddor (Song of Ice and Fire)
Thibbledorf Pwent (Forgotten Realms)
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Pwent is freaking hilarious. He and the Bouldershoulder brothers from Cleric Quintet are Salvatore's best characters. Forget Drizzt and company, he should just write dwarves.
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The most appreciated and remembered character yet in our group is my previous joke character, an obese drunken monk who got into alcoholism when he lost his wife and children. I played him for 2/1-2 levels - that's an average of only 40 hours of game over the whole 2 years that made us the current soon-to-turn 17th level characters we are.
8 Dex, 14 Charisma. A monk. Read the previous stats again.
And yet this guy was sickly efficient ; because he was optimized both for mechanics... AND roleplay.
Because yes, you can totally optimize a character for roleplay. Having high "useless" stats allows you to do things your character shouldn't be able to, and usually allows for more leniency from the DM's part to reward your unusual way of dealing with a situation.
You can't even know how useful these ranks in Profession (Peasant) and taking Monkey Style were during the game to deal with a lot of various situations.
Roleplayer and optimizer aren't opposites, at all.
Okay, how did you make an obese monk work? This I have to know.
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Well said KC. I see guys like Baal come on these boards and try to portray their way as the "onetruewayism". When a majority of posters disagree either they get angry or do the verbal equivalent of storming out of a room. If all a poster wants is to get some sort of validation then find some like minded people and go for some beers and spend the rest of the night slapping each others backs and going "your the man". If you want discussion with dissenting points of view this forum and others like it are not the place. Nor will I or other posters accomadate you because your feelings might get hurt. sometimes I wonder if posters even know the meaning of a discussion. Unless it's stated at the start that it's going to be one-sided in tersm of reponses why assume that everyone will agree.
I admit I'm no saint on these boards and sometimes I occasionaly do a onetruewayism post myself. Yet to be honest while I had some verbalargumetns with some posters here it's the first time I am tempted to put a poster on a ignore list. I see no pupose in talking let alone acknowleging a poster who on;y wants validation of their posts while ignoring anything that does not calidate the topic at hand. If I am a poer gamer no matter what because I disagree with a posters defination of a powergamer why the hell would I waste time listneing to that poster.
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Maxx is entirely possible to make a character can be optimized and be good for roleplaying. It all depends on the class imo. It may work for a Monk or Bard sometimes and depending on the type of game. Say I try to do the same for the Fighter. If one were to optimize a fighter to do damage he usually more often than not suffers from not having as many skills points or abilites tha lend themselves to roleplaying. IF I take the same Fighter and optimize him for roleplaying while I can still hit and do damage I'm going to usually do less damage and hit less. With most classes in 3.5 D&D and up the system forces you to make a trade. Either make a character that is optimized to be the best he can be. Or make him more for rolelaying and social interaction yet being less effective than someone who optimizes his class.
Th problem I keeping seeing in my experience is that players want it all. The optimized combat character who is also as good in social interactions and vice-versa. It's really hard to get both with the system imo. Doable with other rpgs just not D&D.
This is perhaps not the place for this question, but whatever...
As a GM who has yet to decently read Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Combat and Advanced Race Guide, I'd like to ask if the overly-unbalancing things of which is spoken are all (or mostly) into those books (and eventually, in others that are not primary rulebooks), or if there's some path to powergaming in the Core Rulebook and Advanced Player's Guide that I have not yet sighted.
Other than the delusions of ragelancepounce.
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Trhvmn- thats hilarious, you read my postings, then make the exact same point I had made, one dimentional characters who's players put little or no importance (skills feats stats etc) into backstory make one trick pony joke characters.... just like Grod.
Ok, now I'm sure that I'm being trolled.
Either that, or you're the denser than lead.
Trhvmn- thats hilarious, you read my postings, then make the exact same point I had made, one dimentional characters who's players put little or no importance (skills feats stats etc) into backstory make one trick pony joke characters.... just like Grod.Ok, now I'm sure that I'm being trolled.
Either that, or you're the denser than lead.
Methinks the two might not be mutually exclusive, hyup hyup.
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This is perhaps not the place for this question, but whatever...
As a GM who has yet to decently read Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Combat and Advanced Race Guide, I'd like to ask if the overly-unbalancing things of which is spoken are all (or mostly) into those books (and eventually, in others that are not primary rulebooks), or if there's some path to powergaming in the Core Rulebook and Advanced Player's Guide that I have not yet sighted.
Other than the delusions of ragelancepounce.
Ultimate Magic had a couple items in it that needed some clarification (see the FAQ & Errata for the Synthesist) but generally Paizo does a solid job of playtesting their material. Of the few things that are truly broke, they tend to be people ignoring the many Dev posts on how the rules are supposed to work and insisting on using builds that they're positive work this way based on the wording, regardless of what Paizo may say.
In my experience, few things in the game are as broke as people try to make them. If you follow the guidelines provided by Devs and contributors like SKR and JJ, there will still be some builds that are optimized for certain situations, but very few things that just destroy everything else over the course of an entire campaign. Obviously some classes hit their sweet spots at different levels than others, and casters have advantages over non-casters after a certain point, but these are assumptions of the genre generally.
Oh. This thread again.
Hi
Hi
Hi ^_^
How are things in your neck of the woods?
Pretty good, a little on the humid side since it's been raining all week but the sun's come out. Yourself?
Pretty good, a little on the humid side since it's been raining all week but the sun's come out. Yourself?
Good to hear! I'm meh, I'm tired, and I only wish it would rain during the day here; it's been well too hot.
Wraith-
so your telling me the four armed alchemist/twf-2hf is what Paizo intended, the wildcaller with that eldeon shooting 36+ arrows a round, that was intended?
Show me the builds and I will answer. If they are using a rules loophole I will probably say no. If not then I will say Paizo is neither for or against that build.
They are neon flashing OP signs for you, not us, at least not until you present me with the builds in question. I am not asking you to build the character. A link will suffice/
I'm not talking about "every possible loophole" I am talking about the loopholes with the giant neon flashing OP signs pointing to them.
sure I would like to see PF changed into something different, or to be completely honest I wish more players would find the joys the OSR gamers have known about since RPGs began.
What joys are those?
I'm not sure what game your talking about other than I know its not HGS because thats still being sold, and new products come out quarterly.
I am sure everyone else knows the game I made a reference to. It starts with the number 4.
I dont think your right about the balance level, I do belive the rules were written in a "spirit" of the game. I do belive the more legalistic optimized write ups are intent on breaking that "spirit" to the detriment of the party or group. I think the box (or at least the bell curve) is real.
They do it to the detriment of "your" group. Remember that objective thing I keep saying. I say it not because I read it somewhere, but because I have played with various groups, and each was fine with its power level, but bringing players from one group to another would not work well, and trying to have the box that you want to create would have made many of them play different games, or not play at all. This is despite the groups differences in play.
Sure as a DM you may be able to counter the optimized character. your other players might not feel slighted... much... when so many efforts must to go into countering one or two players in a group. but there is no reason Paizo could not write a little blurb "hey, you cant have more than xzy arms on an eledon, and for every ranged weapon attack and eledon has he must have an additional head..(whatver,etc)" thats it, deal with a few of the biggest game breakers. not a lot of work.
So many efforts? I don't really think it takes a lot of effort unless the gap is really wide between characters, but I handed that upthread.
The eidolon does have a limit on the number of attacks it can make.Max. Attacks: This indicates the maximum number of natural attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level. If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional natural attacks. This does not include attacks made with weapons.
I will also add that using weapons, and natural attacks together makes the natural attacks into secondary natural attacks. The eidolon is better off using just the natural attacks in many cases. I would say all cases, but someone might be able to post a build that counters that.
hird, Dungeons & Dragons, by virtue of its being fantasy, is extremely open-ended in nature, making it a lot easier to accommodate a wide variety of not just content but also styles of play.
Then why are you trying to create the box(mentioned upthread), which you like despite other groups being able to deal with various levels of power. I say let others play how they want despite it not being my thing instead of trying to convert them.
If they want a 10th level barbarian pushing 40 points of damage or one doing 150 points of damage that is up to them. I don't think Paizo cares either way as long as everyone has fun playing their game.
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Okay, how did you make an obese monk work? This I have to know.
High Str/Con/Wis, with (quickened) True Strike, Barkskin and Spring Attack qinggong power. (Granted, the DM allowed me to replace awful archetype abilities with qinggong powers that better reflected the fluff, so you may need a cool DM and a lot of trust to make it work.)
This didn't break the game, and made the character way more enjoyable. You may also play this later without any homebrew, it only delays the level where your build is complete.Basically, begin the fight with alcohol in your blood (temporary HP equal to your level + higher saving throws thanks to Drunken Brawler feat), a tunkard in hand, and barkskin on. Use the Bluff skill to look dumb and inoffensive (should not be hard), it could help walking around in the right place. True Strike as a swift action and spend a free action to get Spring Attack. Run, auto-disarm the clueless baddie with the biggest weapon, catch the weapon as a free action, run away with it.
Nobody expects the fat drunk hobo.
When you are close to your enemies, flurry with disarm and trip attempts. Keep the fighters's weapons in hand if they are really ugly, and headbutt those that want to recover them... or let them fall on the ground, and let your friends rain AoOs when they attempt to recover them. Fall to the ground and wait for them to get close (to land an AoO) or try to attack the fat drunk monk unable to defend himself. Too bad, you have Monkey Style and your AC isn't lower when crawling around.
You don't care about your not-so-average AC when the enemy has no weapon left, is on the ground (so, at level 10, that's usually a good -7 to attack and no weapon left ; as much AC you virtually gain) and spends at least one move action each round to recover his weapon or stand up.
You get so much attacks, that you always manage to succeed at least two or three maneuvers at level 12 PLUS a touch of serenity, basically making several creatures out of combat (did I mention the Touch Of Serenity asking for a Will saving throw ?). Again, you may play this character at higher levels without needing any DM fiat.
You deal few damage directly, but enemies get mad real quick. Your saves are through the roof, and your AoO-based friends love you.
Spend Ki points to increase your AC with an additional +4 if needed. If you are against a tough guy able to hit you no matter what, with Fast Drinker+Deep Drinker feats, drink alcohol as a swift action, and recover Ki and gain new temporary HP each round. That's like having Regeneration (your level) and infinite Ki.
Oh, you also have DR. And if you are ever put under 0 HP, don't forget Deny Death ! (Orc ferocity-based feats may also help.)
EDIT : I almost forgot. Actually, you don't even need DM fiat to play this. Just take less archetypes, and replace the class features you wouldn't want anyway with those you would have taken. The only real difference in game would be -1 to AC, and a DR coming later.
(Oh, and I was able to puke venom. Like, real, 1d6 Con venom.)
got cha beat, I had the red box (D&D), I did meet one old guy who claimed to have played chainmail before D&D, course he was a napolionics player...
you may be right about my DM, but if he's so terrible, why has he run 3 PF games for years with three different groups of players, if he's as terrible as you claim, ya'd think they'd leave
my character was built fine, awesome tripper, what problem did you see in it?
friends are great RPers why do you say different?
can you back up that attack crap you just posted?
That character sounds like a ton of fun to play. And I can think of plenty of ways to roleplay him. "Obfuscating incompetence" is always a ton of fun.
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Elian Cordonnier is still to this day my most beloved character. It's awesome what you can do with point-buy when you suddenly don't need Dex anymore ; and he would probably be even more efficient if you replaced Str with Dex - instead, you would deal virtually no damage but gain much better AC and be (even more) near unkillable. And roleplaying a dumb drunk guy is fun, especially when his sobre personality is that of a fine, socially-beloved sophisticated gentleman.
(I also forgot to mention the Turn Liquids Into Alcohol powder I always had around. It worked like the spell turning water into a vine as strong as the water is dirty ; but with every liquid !
Elian drank really dirty things.)
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Well, killed my Powergamer's first character
he replaced it with a Zen archer
I tempeted him with a really awesome comp longbow. He took the bait
Now he's stuck with an intelligent longbow that talks to him and needs a diplomacy to work (at the start of combat). If he gets on well with his bow, it may go down.
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Well, killed my Powergamer's first character
he replaced it with a Zen archer
I tempeted him with a really awesome comp longbow. He took the baitNow he's stuck with an intelligent longbow that talks to him and needs a diplomacy to work (at the start of combat). If he gets on well with his bow, it may go down.
You do realize what his next feat is going to be, right?
Skill Focus: Diplomacy. And his next few levels will be dumping ranks into diplomacy.
Or he might just get rid of the bow completely, snap it in half, who knows?
Doing that direct form of countering just results in needless animosity.
What do you mean by 'go down'?
Otherwise, that's a pretty cool idea. However, your aim sounds to be less "push roleplaying" and more "weaken character", which, while an understandable aim, maybe isn't the best goal. Instead of a Diplomacy check, ignore the dice and make him talk to it. If he doesn't convince it, it won't 'fail to work', it just won't give him the benefits of its magic, and it might turn against him and sabotage things later on. Yelling for help when he's trying to sneak around, taking control and making him get himself into trouble, that sort of thing. Makes roleplaying more interesting.
Well, killed my Powergamer's first character
he replaced it with a Zen archer
I tempeted him with a really awesome comp longbow. He took the baitNow he's stuck with an intelligent longbow that talks to him and needs a diplomacy to work (at the start of combat). If he gets on well with his bow, it may go down.
You do realize what his next feat is going to be, right?
Skill Focus: Diplomacy. And his next few levels will be dumping ranks into diplomacy.
Or he might just get rid of the bow completely, snap it in half, who knows?
Doing that direct form of countering just results in needless animosity.
That is what I would do. If I was stuck in the middle of nowhere, and the GM said I could not buy a bow. I would just make my own bow.
That is only after putting the GM on the spot through RP. I would use diplomacy to find out why the bow is not cooperating. If the bow's demands are not reasonable then it would be obvious the GM set me up. If the bow is reasonable then I get to still be an archer, and I have a nice free bow also.
I'm your worst nightmare. . .a Kobold with a Cleaver. . .
*Bwahahahahahaha*
At least you don't have a ring in your nose like poor Orthos. If he fails a CMD vs grapple he can be swung around by it (or would that be a repositioning maneuver?)
They have to see me first. Kobold Rogue FTW.
I'm other kobolds' worst nightmare. See, there are usually more kobolds than adventurers. If I want to cleave two adventurers on either side, I'm generally gonna have to use a bit of friendly fire first.
And naturally, being Evil, I do that. For the good of the clan, of course.
Tsk Tsk.
Tsk Tsk.
Pipe down, freak. If you weren't part dragon, you'd be finding yourself adjacent to two humans and myself pretty darn quick. If you catch my drift.
Incidentally, I will admit I do derive some pleasure watching clanmate Orthos get wielded as a weapon by the dwarf monk. Those guys have pretty good Perception bonuses!
Could be worse. could be a Kobold with a Shotfun.
We call it a shotgun. You're thinking of goblins. And kobolds firing shotguns is like ettercaps casting spark--dude, it's gonna backfire.
Part?
Anyhoo, upstart kobolds raise as just as an obedient undead as anyone else.
Really? That's funny, I was just saying something similar...
Stunted wyrms fall just as far into slime pits as anyone else.
This thread is made of hate, generalizations and awesome characters.
And Kobolds. Don't forget the kobolds.
I didn't forget them. I mentioned them three times.This thread is made of hate, generalizations and awesome characters.And Kobolds. Don't forget the kobolds.
Touche.