This leads to another option to limit the power available to the characters. Only allow NPC classes.
As an example, d20 Call of Cthulhu did just that using 3rd edition rules.
PC core and base classes would become elite classes only available under the right in game circumstances. And/or PC class abilities could be added to PCs if the right in game conditions were met. Perhaps, the adept would learn to channel energy through in game experiences. Or, the warrior would pick up bonus feats and become more like the fighter through experiences in game.
The possibilities are endless, but the GM is in control of the power available to the characters.
Again, not what every player would want, but it could be just what some are looking for.
Hrothgar, I see what you're doing, and it'd certainly work--though I think some measures, like not letting people choose race, are kind of draconian. I could probably enjoy such a game. I prefer to invent my character concepts before designing them, but I've used other means before.
The problem I have with it is that it shows very little trust in your players. If they're so obsessed with building superpowered characters that micromanaging is necessary, maybe you should let them make superpowered characters? Just like Lodge from Dorkness Rising and the GM from DM of the Rings, you pushing a style of play players aren't interested in is a good way to alienate them.
Worse, forcing players to play characters they don't enjoy playing will really upset them. Say I hate playing casters because I prefer to keep the mechanical side simple. When I have to keep track of complex statistics, it's harder to focus on the roleplaying!
Then I get forced into playing a wizard because I rolled a 15 Int and no other good scores. I ain't gonna enjoy this game as much as I could have.
Finally, making it harder to level up won't prevent powergaming--it will prevent power, period. Or delay it, whatever. It doesn't actually hurt the hypothetical min/maxer. He'd just continue to dominate low-level combats until he levels up, then he'd dominate those. Delaying level-ups just makes things take longer to progress--I know plenty of GMs like Slow levelling, I got no problem with it, I'm just pointing out that the only thing it does is basically slow down the campaign. Not necessarily in a bad way, but do you see what I'm saying?
The min/maxer will be eliminated by the other measures just fine. The Slow XP Progression actually doesn't do anything against him.
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Balancing:
1: Communicate your idea of the game with the players:
- Make sure they understand that you want low-powered story hour, instead of high-powered action hour, and why.
- Take feedback from the players. As a GM, you have NO right dictating what a game is supposed to be without their input. If you want low power and everyone else wants high power, then you as a GM is democratically obliged to serve the majority vote, or find a new group.
2: Have them critique each others characters among themselves:
- One guy does insane damage? Ask him if he could tone it down a bit so that the rest at least can remain relevant in fights, and come down to a prearranged level of power.
- One guy contributes next to nothing due to horribly inefficient build? Tell him to reconsider some points in his build so he comes up to the prearranged level of power.
3: REWARD desired behavior.
- If you want people to stay in character, give them some manner incentive. As the game stands, there is no mechanical reward for doing so, so it is up to you to ensure that RP is worth the bother.
- Again, communicate your vision, make sure the players not only understand, but also SHARE your idea of RP being a good time. Because trust me, it is not always the case. One of my worst gaming experiences comes from time with a GM that insisted every NPC encounter be roleplayed, from haggling with merchants to filling in tax and customs forms when traveling. Recall wasting an entire session getting new boots for the rogue and selling crap from a dungeon. RP =/= good in its own right.
I am totally waiting for Grod to show up again.
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Nobody listens to me, but here's my advice:
1)Don't.
Powergame them right back. Optimize monsters, encounters, use better spells, learn how the game rules ACTUALLY work (not how you think they ought to work based on some conception of fantasy world physics).
I have found the game very balanced when I encourage all my players to min/max and I do the same. As long as everyone is playing at the same level, everything works pretty darn good. It's when there's a rules mastery disparity when things fall apart the quickest. Make sure that you play an NPCs intelligence as well.
2) Also, learn to derive enjoyment from THEIR enjoyment. Try not to have any expectations from an encounter other than seeing people smile (or whatever emotion you want them to feel). If you plan TOO much, you're just going to be more upset when that NPC gets one-shot. You're all like "but I never got to use this cool ability he has" but your player is like "aww snap, look at that, I dropped the big baddy into a pit, look who's a badass now!"
3)Institute a safeguard/safety net action point system that both you and the players can use. Powerful NPCs have a small pool of rerolls, so they can't get killed/defeated so easily. No more one-shots! But so do your players. No more surprise crits for 100 HP ("I use 2 action points to stabilize at -9").
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was looking at the other threads about that, couple of levels in witch to get the white haired witch grapple,stranlge,stagger,constrict,pin, prone sickness and add the slumber hex save or die maddness, add that to the staff magus +5 10x per day 20d6+40 acid SG staff at level 12 and I doubt theres really much you couldent kill in a round or two.
An archer Fighter or Paladin built using just the core rulebook can kill a Balor in one-two rounds.
Look, it's quite obvious that Pathfinder/3.5e D&D is not a game for you. It always was, since 2000, a game where a party of core-rulebook based characters can bulldoze through an encounter in 2 rounds, rolls and tactical skill permitting. You're still trying to tell a stadium of basketball fans that basketball is badwrong and asking how to make it more like volleyball. The only answer is: play volleyball.
@Baal-->I think I know the thread you are talking about. The build by STR Ranger has its uses, but it is not something to be worried about especially at higher levels. Monsters tend to have high saves(will and fort), and hexes require you to be within 30 feats, which is a lot closer than you want to be for things that like to kill by hit point damage.
I did not read the entire thread, but I saw enough to not be worried. As for the grapple idea trying to use CMB based tactics against monsters above level 10 is generally a bad idea, and that is if you are full BAB class.
There might be specific builds that are the exception, but if you have to have a specific build to do something it limits options, and makes a the build easier to deal with.
was looking at the other threads about that, couple of levels in witch to get the white haired witch grapple,stranlge,stagger,constrict,pin, prone sickness and add the slumber hex save or die maddness, add that to the staff magus +5 10x per day 20d6+40 acid SG staff at level 12 and I doubt theres really much you couldent kill in a round or two.
Present a build that none of us can deal with and you might gain some points.
I normally do things in this order.
1.Tactics
2.Change Feats, skills and/or spells.
3.Sub the monster out for one the works, maybe using point 2.
4.Actually build NPC or NPC's using NPC rules.
I hardly ever get to step 4. The one time I did the players were way over wealth in a monty haul campaign I was running because. That was a fun time.
I figure if I can deal with it, then it is not broken I am 99% sure that others believe that if they can handle it, then it is not broken either.
I saw that thread. It was also the thread I was talking about.
Balance between characters can never be perfect in any system. As long as there is not a huge gap, and the player that is better at making characters is not taking advantage of it there should not be an issue. If he is then then that is a player issue. In every system I have played I am normally better than the other players, but I don't marginalise them. If did that, then I would be inconsiderate for doing so, unless the GM was taking actions that forced me to take those actions, and in that case we are better off with a new GM.
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They are not OP, that is why. It is not Paizo's place to tell us what is OP, nor can than monitor every possible rules loophole. What they can do is plug obvious cheese*. Other than that the game is designed to allow a wide disparity in game play. That is why we keep telling you that what is OP is subjective.
I remember a poster coming here and complaining about another player he had invited to his group. After much discussion the OP said that his group likes long combats(8 rounds), and that anyone doing over 15 points of damage over an entire round at level 8 was a powergamer. Now 15 points is way below the standard for most groups at level 8. It is not my place to tell him he is "doing it wrong" though, even if I would never play in that game.
What you might call OP I might say is standard. What I might call OP someone else might call standard.
If you are suggesting that Paizo should make a box(not literally) that everyone fits inside of to make sure that no matter what choice you make you can't go above power level X or below power level Y then we have a clone of another system that shall not be named. I am not saying it was a bad game, but trying to standardise everything like that takes away options, and PF would only be worse for it.
Your idea would make that 8 round game very unlikely, assuming my previous paragraph is correct, and while it is not for me, I should not deny someone else that option.
*These are things that 99% of us would agree should not work a certain way.
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Speak of cheese make Grod hungry.
Also... if tiny lying man care so much about RP, why he complain so much about mechanics?
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flesh- no its not, and after a few extremely predictable encounters like this become completely boring, but it has nothing to do with a low int and cha and has everything to do with a lack of character concept.
whats grod's motivation? to kill? what does he seek outside of killing? meat. where do you go with that as a story arc? the quest to find the largest peice of meat? the quest to kill more than any have killed before and be honored as the greatest killer of all time?
Adrenaline. He's an adrenaline junky. He likes the sheer rush of ecstasy that you get when you are fighting for your life, heart pounding, blood pumping, with fear and anger and a strange sense of fun all mixed together in a way that confuses and ignites the senses. Maybe he adventures for the sheer thrill of it. Others do it for the gold, for the glory, for the fame, for the respect, for good, for evil, or for love; but Grod does it for himself. It's a path in life that can let him have his adrenaline rush and kill with a "clear conscience". It's like a bloodsport fighter who gets paid and cheered on to break people in half. A bungee jumper who gets paid to fling himself into the unknown.
Why did Grod begin this path? Because Grod was bullied. He used to get into fights constantly, and none of them were his choosing, but he got good at it. He never spoke much. When he was little he was too scared to speak much. He was introverted. But as time went on, where his mouth lacked grace his muscles grew. One day, someone larger than him (in size, not muscle density) began bullying him, and pushed him into a wall and began slapping him around. Something inside Grod clicked. It wasn't just anger exactly. He laughed. It confused the bully. "What the hell are you laughing at!?" he demanded. Grod just laughed louder. The bully got angrier and threw a punch at him, but Grod moved aside and grabbed his arm along its length. "Grod's turn to play." he said, snapping the bully's arm across the elbow like a toothpick. He beat the snot out of that bully that day, and nearly killed him (or maybe he did, who knows). Grod didn't feel small and weak anymore. He felt free. He wanted the feeling again, and again, and again. Fighting became a game for him. For fun. Not for bullying, or for defense, but just the sheer love of being on the line.
The problem is, you don't see Grod. You don't care about Grod. You only care that Grod has an 18 Strength, and a 7 Intelligence and 7 Charisma. You made up your mind about Grod because you're metagaming and projecting your expectations upon Grod. You should go back and rethink your expectations, and act a little more mature. Consider that others might do things their way, and just because it's not your way does not make it the wrong way. You're all playing the same game, by the same rules, to have fun. Act like the adult you are and stop being so haughty.
Again its what happens with one dimentional characters and the reason I have players write me at least a paragraph of background including people and events in the characters life that have influenced them to positive motivations or negitive ones. based on those associations there should be skills and in this game feats devoted to the things outside of combat.
conan had a lot of that, the kind slave trader who released him, eastern masters who taught him the way of the sword... and, of course...
"Language and writing were also made available, the poetry of Kitai, the philosophy of Sung"
gee think of that, the mighty pit fighter barbarian with a KS philosophy KS poetry and obscure language skills..
You still so sure Conan used INT as a dump stat?
By 20th level Grod can speak 21 languages using only his bonus skill points from being Human, and decipher more ancient writings than a professional linguistic researcher. Because ultimately your interests and experiences mean more than your natural predisposition.
Grod's an orc not a human >_> Otherwise +1
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btw where is the eratta on some of these OP builds? why hasn't paizo nerfed them?
Because when you get to a party that really really really knows the ins-and-outs of the game and everything you can do, suddenly a barbarian smashing holes in every encounter through brute force looks a lot less scary.
There's a reason posts on this forum often ignore raw damage as a subpar method of dealing with encounters. An illusionist, conjurer, or transmuter wizard with a few crowd-control and terrain-altering spells will wreck the GM's day far, far, far worse than a kill-bot barbarian. For that wizard, the barbarian is a janitor. "Alright, I've neutered the GM's encounter. Feel free to mop up the mess."
As much as they seem unwilling to nerf mages, why would you be surprised that martial classes - who casters in any 3.0-derived product will outclass 9 times out of 10 (provided equivalent design skill on the part of their players) - don't even get looked at?
, the barbarian is a janitor.
Well, crud. Yet another character concept I'll not have time to play.
Grod's an orc not a human >_> Otherwise +1
Okay, so 22 / 5 / 5, and we make it his Favored Class bonus. :P
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They are not OP, that is why. It is not Paizo's place to tell us what is OP, nor can than monitor every possible rules loophole. What they can do is plug obvious cheese*. Other than that the game is designed to allow a wide disparity in game play. That is why we keep telling you that what is OP is subjective.
I remember a poster coming here and complaining about another player he had invited to his group. After much discussion the OP said that his group likes long combats(8 rounds), and that anyone doing over 15 points of damage over an entire round at level 8 was a powergamer. Now 15 points is way below the standard for most groups at level 8. It is not my place to tell him he is "doing it wrong" though, even if I would never play in that game.
What you might call OP I might say is standard. What I might call OP someone else might call standard.
If you are suggesting that Paizo should make a box(not literally) that everyone fits inside of to make sure that no matter what choice you make you can't go above power level X or below power level Y then we have a clone of another system that shall not be named. I am not saying it was a bad game, but trying to standardise everything like that takes away options, and PF would only be worse for it.
Your idea would make that 8 round game very unlikely, assuming my previous paragraph is correct, and while it is not for me, I should not deny someone else that option.*These are things that 99% of us would agree should not work a certain way.
Heck, 15 dpr is low for some first level builds ;-)
They are not OP, that is why. It is not Paizo's place to tell us what is OP, nor can than monitor every possible rules loophole. What they can do is plug obvious cheese*. Other than that the game is designed to allow a wide disparity in game play. That is why we keep telling you that what is OP is subjective.
I remember a poster coming here and complaining about another player he had invited to his group. After much discussion the OP said that his group likes long combats(8 rounds), and that anyone doing over 15 points of damage over an entire round at level 8 was a powergamer. Now 15 points is way below the standard for most groups at level 8. It is not my place to tell him he is "doing it wrong" though, even if I would never play in that game.
What you might call OP I might say is standard. What I might call OP someone else might call standard.
If you are suggesting that Paizo should make a box(not literally) that everyone fits inside of to make sure that no matter what choice you make you can't go above power level X or below power level Y then we have a clone of another system that shall not be named. I am not saying it was a bad game, but trying to standardise everything like that takes away options, and PF would only be worse for it.
Your idea would make that 8 round game very unlikely, assuming my previous paragraph is correct, and while it is not for me, I should not deny someone else that option.*These are things that 99% of us would agree should not work a certain way.
Heck, 15 dpr is low for some first level builds ;-)
No kidding. Greatsword + Power Attack + Nice Strength can exceed that without even trying.
In response to Wraithstrike, if they like long battles, just make long battles, aye? My PCs do not build themselves to be intentionally weak but battles (especially at high levels) tend to last many rounds (easily 20+ at high levels).
sure I would like to see PF changed into something different, or to be completely honest I wish more players would find the joys the OSR gamers have known about since RPGs began.
OSR? Not familiar with that acronym.
From your own link:
Third, Dungeons & Dragons, by virtue of its being fantasy, is extremely open-ended in nature, making it a lot easier to accommodate a wide variety of not just content but also styles of play.
Case closed.
What you define as Monty Haul is very, very, very different from what most people do.
Ashiel- Ive seen it before many many times, you create the joke character, the joke gets old, and the joke character cant be taken seriously after that, even the player quickly hates him and begs for a new character. always happens that way, at least in every game ive seen that character get in.
I'd kindly like to ask you to step out of your little bubble, then.
Just because your group sucks at RPing doesn't mean that everyone does.
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I started pen and paper playing AD&D.
I could still make builds far more powerful than some characters.
I can remember having a wizard that could still eat face in melee combat.
I'd kindly like to ask you to step out of your little bubble, then.Just because your group sucks at RPing doesn't mean that everyone does.
That's basically the entire crux of this thread.
Baal's DM can't build encounters right.
Baal can't build characters right.
And Baal's friends can't RP right.
And SOMEHOW this is a flaw in the PF system.
This is a PEBKAC error and nothing more.
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got cha beat, I had the red box (D&D), I did meet one old guy who claimed to have played chainmail before D&D, course he was a napolionics player...
And..?
That point doesn't negate that you could make powergaming characters in AD&D.
And, I also don't believe you, like the whole band story, and all the rest of your stories that just keep getting invented as you need them.
I mean, this is an excellent example.
"I started in AD&D"
"Well I started at redbox!"
"I am a nihilist"
"I had a friend who was such a nihilist he OD'd on purpose!"
If I said I was Chinese, I have a feeling you'd somehow be more Chinese than I am.
I was just thinking... no matter how you build your first level character in AD&D, any first level character has a good chance of killing any other first level character, but thats not the case in PF.
Uh... no. The fighter won automatically at lv1. He had weapons spec and 2 attacks, and if he had an 18/XX strength, his damage bonus was amazing. AD&D was FAR more unbalanced than PF. In PF Str17 and 18 is the difference between +3 to hit/dam and +4 to hit/dam. In AD&D 17 was +1 to both, and 18 could be +3 to hit/+6 damage.
I think your nostalgia glasses blurs your objective perception of reality... just a tad.
It was easier to KILL a PC in AD&D, sure. But there was no balance between the classes. Or even an attempt towards it. Thus the different XP tables, where rogue types needed very little, and paladins/mages needed tons.
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What you define as Monty Haul is very, very, very different from what most people do.
Every table has to define the boundaries they wish to play under. And if it doesn't work, and you didn't play by the rules, that isn't always the fault of the game.
Much like a car, the warranty is void if you modify the engine.
RAWyering is another issue. If I wrote:
"Raping a monkey is not cool"
Most people would understand the intent. RAWyers would say "Not cool isn't the same as forbidden, and since it didn't mention Apes specifically I think the Devs totally were fine with it as long as they are enlarged or something..."
I like a more powerful game personally. I prefer to roll stats and I generally make magic items fairly available, and give a lot of crafting flexibility (with GM approval of course). If anything gets to be a problem, I fix it fairly after speaking to the player.
I also don't play with jerks who try to "win" the game by soloing and who understand it is a party based game. Also, the game is easier for everyone when people use each others synergies rather than trying to create "uber" character.
Powergaming is selfish if it isn't the context of a room full of people you have agreed to sit down and play with. If you are powergaming with the group and not against it, problem.
If you are simply trying to find the best way to be what you imagined a character to be, in the chosen setting, within the framework of the party, there is no problem.
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friends are great RPers why do you say different?
can you back up that attack crap you just posted?
Read your own post that I quoted again.
Ive seen it before many many times, you create the joke character, the joke gets old, and the joke character cant be taken seriously after that, even the player quickly hates him and begs for a new character. always happens that way, at least in every game ive seen that character get in.
This is bad RPing. This is someone creating a character and failing to add any depth to them.
No character is inherently good or bad to RP. As Ashiel demonstrated, even a dumb brute guy can have an interesting backstory. It all depends on the player.
A character is only a "joke character" if you want them to be one.
This is a PEBKAC error and nothing more.
This pretty much sums everything up.
got cha beat
It's not a contest, Topper.
EDIT: I need to make that an alias now. *runs off to user CP*