A primary requirement of this strategy is having someone who can teleport out of the dragon's stomach after activating the rod/decanter, so it has to be a squishy casty type who is most likely not going to cut your stomach.
Limited Wish can actually force a dragon to eat them though. You just have to land the Limited Wish spell.
Pending DM approval and the ability to get through the dragon's spell resistance, and if you have to be capable of casting 7th level spells for this strategy to work, then there has to be an easier (or at least less complex) way of defeating a dragon than getting eaten, setting up the decanter of endless water and immovable rod, making your concentration check to dimension door while being digested, and then hoping really hard that the dragon will drown before they can figure out how to get out of the mess you made.
Just my two CP, though.
We're talking about fighting a Great Gold Wyrm, you had better be able to cast Wish, lol :P
You can use Limited Wish to reduce the Dragon's next save, and hit him with another Limited Wish to compel him to eat you.
The Drowning isn't actually going to kill the dragon. I mean it will eventually if the dragon doesn't take care of it, but a dragon will survive the drowning long enough to kill your whole party. The decanter of endless water is to force insane concentration checks from continuous damage, while causing Con dmg from drowning.
The most terrifying thing about a dragon isn't the tail, bite, claws or even breath weapon, it's the magic they can cast. You're not going to be forcing any sustainable rate of failed conc checks using bows, swords and even your own spells (because he'll consistently resist your spells and deflect your attacks).
You have to stop the dragon from casting, and the lingering damage from drowning occurs every round and adds a metric asston to the conc checks, especially when paired with the damage your party will be doing.
Drowning won't even start for a great many rounds, no Con damage applies until then ... and I don't think that's how the drowning rules work.
Best thing is to cut off an allies' big toe, lure the great wyrm into an entirely non-magical death trap. If you can rig enough black powder mining charges in said death trap, you will kill it and your face character who hopefully has truth backing everything they tell the great gold wyrm.
i.e., you're going to kill a PC, and that PC is not going to know it's coming. ;)
The drowning rules do not provide a concentration check for casting a spell while drowning, but neither does the concentration rules. The closest rule you're going to get to trying to cast a spell while drowning is A) you can't cast while drowning simply because the rules do not say you can even make an attempt to cast while drowning, or B) make a conc check based on lingering damage.
I'd go with the latter.
All this assuming the dragon has no way of teleporting, turning intangible, turning incomporial, shapeshifting into something that can breathe both air and water, shapeshifting into something that doesn't need to breathe, casting greater dispel magic to temporarily suspend to magic on those items long enough to spit them out, casting mage's disjunction to destroy said items, wish the items out or any of the dozen other things it could decide to do. Your premise is flawed.
The drowning rules do not provide a concentration check for casting a spell while drowning, but neither does the concentration rules. The closest rule you're going to get to trying to cast a spell while drowning is A) you can't cast while drowning simply because the rules do not say you can even make an attempt to cast while drowning, or B) make a conc check based on lingering damage.
I'd go with the latter.
You need to breathe (risk drowning) to cast spells with V components. Silent Spell ignores this part. ;)
All this assuming the dragon has no way of teleporting, turning intangible, turning incomporial, shapeshifting into something that can breathe both air and water, shapeshifting into something that doesn't need to breathe, casting greater dispel magic to temporarily suspend to magic on those items long enough to spit them out, casting mage's disjunction to destroy said items, wish the items out or any of the dozen other things it could decide to do. Your premise is flawed.
Activate an anti magic field around the dragon to stop him from casting.
All this assuming the dragon has no way of teleporting, turning intangible, turning incomporial, shapeshifting into something that can breathe both air and water, shapeshifting into something that doesn't need to breathe, casting greater dispel magic to temporarily suspend to magic on those items long enough to spit them out, casting mage's disjunction to destroy said items, wish the items out or any of the dozen other things it could decide to do. Your premise is flawed.Activate an anti magic field around the dragon to stop him from casting.
You do realize that would turn off your magic item as well, right?
A caster is only a fragile little monkey in a anti-magic field. A dragon? It is still a dragon.
Oh yeah, dang.
Well, load up on Greater Dispels and counterspell and dispel his effects then.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yo dawg, I heard you like dispels, so I got dudes dispelling a dragon's dispelling their dispelling so he can dispel their items that act as spells. Classic.
Haha, okay fine. I'll think of something else.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
What if we built a large wooden badger?
Alright, now that it is right next to the dragon, what do we do now?
So I just googled this: what if you activate an immovable rod in a dragon's stomach, and you can't teleport with an immovable rod inside you. You can only move it up to 10 ft with a 30 str check because it applies 8,000 lbs of force. It will tear your organs apart and rip out your spine.
So with several immovable rods, holding a dragon in place would be feasible.
So I just googled this: what if you activate an immovable rod in a dragon's stomach, and you can't teleport with an immovable rod inside you. You can only move it up to 10 ft with a 30 str check because it applies 8,000 lbs of force. It will tear your organs apart and rip out your spine.
So with several immovable rods, holding a dragon in place would be feasible.
Umm... source?
[First, lifting (pushing up) a Rod is not the same as a Rod supporting weight; second, an object weighing 8,000lbs, with a Rod inside of it, would require 16,000lbs of force to move, so just because a dragon can lift itself doesn't mean it can lift the rod for free. That's the simple, no rules needed s&!!. Let's get into the rules.
An immovable rod can support up to 8,000 pounds before falling to the ground. If a creature pushes against an immovable rod, it must succeed at a DC 30 Strength check to move the rod up to 10 feet in a single round.
A DC 30 strength check, as per pushing rules (and rolling 20 with a +10 mod), applies 8,000lbs of force, the rod only "falls to the ground" because supporting weight is continuous (unlike a shove/check); additionally, nowhere does it say that the rod deactivates upon "falling to the ground", so it would still be active. As such, a monster with a rod inside of it would be limited to 10ft/round (if it can make a DC 30 check) in every direction except for down, which would be at falling speed (assuming said monster weighs at least 8,000lbs). That's RAW.
Now, let's get into RAI with a dash of science; since a rod is neither piercing nor slashing, it would deal crushing damage, or 2d8+15 (huge weight category + 1.5x STR mod) for each movement; however, this rod is much smaller than a huge monster, and will exert about 660PSI on internal organs. It only takes 40PSI to rupture a human stomach (100PSI for skin), which would be an "AC" of 10 (though this would be No Miss) as per the Swallow Whole rules since humans have no natural armor. I'm not quite sure how to quantify "16.5x less squishy", what's needed to have no organ tearing, but should it rip out through their stomachs it would deal 1/10hp, just as if characters cut themselves out... maybe crushing plus 1/10hp given the tearing nature over cutting.?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/39bxn h/if_i_am_in_the_belly_of_a_dragon_and_i_turn_on_an/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/39bxn h/if_i_am_in_the_belly_of_a_dragon_and_i_turn_on_an/[First, lifting (pushing up) a Rod is not the same as a Rod supporting weight; second, an object weighing 8,000lbs, with a Rod inside of it, would require 16,000lbs of force to move, so just because a dragon can lift itself doesn't mean it can lift the rod for free. That's the simple, no rules needed s+##. Let's get into the rules.
An immovable rod can support up to 8,000 pounds before falling to the ground. If a creature pushes against an immovable rod, it must succeed at a DC 30 Strength check to move the rod up to 10 feet in a single round.
A DC 30 strength check, as per pushing rules (and rolling 20 with a +10 mod), applies 8,000lbs of force, the rod only "falls to the ground" because supporting weight is continuous (unlike a shove/check); additionally, nowhere does it say that the rod deactivates upon "falling to the ground", so it would still be active. As such, a monster with a rod inside of it would be limited to 10ft/round (if it can make a DC 30 check) in every direction except for down, which would be at falling speed (assuming said monster weighs at least 8,000lbs). That's RAW.
Now, let's get into RAI with a dash of science; since a rod is neither piercing nor slashing, it would deal crushing damage, or 2d8+15 (huge weight category + 1.5x STR mod) for each movement; however, this rod is much smaller than a huge monster, and will exert about 660PSI on internal organs. It only takes 40PSI to rupture a human stomach (100PSI for skin), which would be an "AC" of 10 (though this would be No Miss) as per the Swallow Whole rules since humans have no natural armor. I'm not quite sure how to quantify "16.5x less squishy", what's needed to have no organ tearing, but should it rip out through their stomachs it would deal 1/10hp, just as if characters cut themselves out... maybe crushing plus 1/10hp given the tearing nature over cutting.?
Ah, so nothing official from Paizo, I see. Anyway, teleportation happens via the Astral Plane, so you are not moving through "real" space anyway. Secondly, you only take what you want when you teleport. I have no doubt a dragon (or anyone else for that matter) could choose to leave behind a foreign substance in their body.
How are others doing this exact same strategy in this exact same scenario? Dumb dragons/GMs?
How are others doing this exact same strategy in this exact same scenario? Dumb dragons/GMs?
I am afraid just because someone else does something doesn't mean they are doing right. I was once in a game of 3.5 where everyone (save my dashingly handsome good self) was under the impression that the DC's for spells and rolls against SR were based of of your Spellcraft checks. Needless to say, casters were even more powerful than usual in that group.
It looks like there are quite a few people who have used this strategy, except not with the decanter of endless water. I still think this is a good idea. Remember that this only occupies one person's actions to get eaten and activate this, while the rest of your party is beating this dragon into submission with Wish, Dispels, Anchors, and employing their own insidious strategies, even tossing kitchen sinks and dirty socks when necessary, etc. Once the trap is set, teleport out and join in on the beatdown.
You still have to fight the dragon legitimately, but now the dragon has a deathtimer and eventually he's going to be fighting this battle while being asphyxiated. The dragon will be hard pressed to cast anything and cannot move, and if you're playing your cards right, he wouldn't be given an opportunity to teleport or become ethereal.
A decanter is 9,000g and immovable rods are 5,000g, so with four rods, that's 29,000g for a pretty solid strategy.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Last I checked true dragons do not ever gain the swallow whole special attack. Thus, if you get swallowed by a dragon, it's already eaten you to death before the first chunk goes any further than its fangs.
Presuming it didn't use a wish to auto-geas one of the dummies attacking it into its minion.
So I've launched a full scale inquiry into this due to this debate, haha :) Pretty interesting stuff actually.
You don't actually need to be swallowed whole. You can become ethereal and materialize in the dragon's stomach, activate the items and either teleport or become ethereal again.
Also, something pretty interesting, since the water would be filling the lungs, the dragon would not actually have any air to even "hold her breath", as water would already be in the lungs. Theoretically, you could use multiple decanters and multiple rods to fill the stomach, lungs, neck and mouth with water in only a single round and immediately force suffocation checks. It starts at 10 and increases by 1 DC every round, and the first failure reduces HP to 0.
Suffocation:
A character who has no air to breathe can hold her breath for 2 rounds per point of Constitution. If a character takes a standard or full-round action, the remaining duration that the character can hold her breath is reduced by 1 round. After this period of time, the character must make a DC 10 Constitution check in order to continue holding her breath. The check must be repeated each round, with the DC increasing by +1 for each previous success.
When the character fails one of these Constitution checks, she begins to suffocate. In the first round, she falls unconscious (0 hit points). In the following round, she drops to –1 hit points and is dying. In the third round, she suffocates.
Also, I just ran this scenario by my GM. You CAN cast spells while you have air in your lungs while you are holding your breath under water, but each time you do reduces the total duration you can actually hold your breath by 1 round. But once you have water in your lungs you begin drowning and are considered panicked (and making DC10 Con checks every round with +1DC each subsequent round to remain conscious). In this scenario with decanters filling your stomach, neck, mouth and lungs with water, you'd basically have the same level of concentration as someone being waterboarded. Meaning: you can't cast spells while panicked.
As soon as you fail any one of these stacking DC Con checks, you fall unconscious, then next round you are -1 HP and dying, and the third round you are dead.
Personally, I think this is game-breakingly cheap and I won't do it, nor will I allow it in any games that I GM.
As far as I recall, critters and characters can't 'ghost' through other critters and characters to do these things, period. You can pass through them, sure, but you can't just leave stuff inside of them. The items remain in the Ethereal Plane, doing not a danged thing to them whatsoever.
Figure a way to gain a suitable special attack and you're good to go. Until then, death by Ethereal Cheese doesn't happen.
You can materialize in an open space, and the stomach would be an open space large enough for a medium creature to stand upright and walk around with some room to spare in a colossal creature.
In this scenario, you could travel ethereally through the creature, re-materialize in the open space of the stomach, and then activate the items, then re-enter ethereal travel (or teleport out).
.
Edit: From Ethereal Jaunt:
"If you end the spell and become material while inside a material object (such as a solid wall), you are shunted off to the nearest open space and take 1d6 points of damage per 5 feet that you so travel."
As long as you aren't trying to occupy the same space as the muscles and bones, you won't get shunted to the nearest open space.
Regardless, it's BS-cheese that cheapens the experience of combat with a dragon, and therefore the game, imo.
Oh it is BS cheese for sure - also, without swallow whole, the dragon doesn't have a gullet to hold something in - and it's already full of stomach acid or molten lava or whatever's in a dragon's stomach ... if you can see inside solid matter (x-ray vision?)
Good call on x-naying it though. No insta-death without a special mechanic facilitating it, which generally has defenses applicable of some sort.
Creatures are not objects. You simply cannot materialize inside any creature excepting, maybe, animated objects.
Anchoring Enchantment (+2) can make any weapon behave like an immovable rod as well... Hrrmm..... The possibilities....
After reading through the posts so far, I'm loving the plans that are presented.
I'm personally leaning towards the Orb of Dragonkind (or a Dragonslaying artifact) option, since the PCs themselves could be sent out to reclaim the artifact. Thus, when they figure out the assassination plot, they will feel at least a little responsible. Hopefully.
Maybe have the Assassins use a ton of inhaled poisons as a backup, or even just to ensure the artifact has a chance to work, and it's a decent attempt. Potentially gives the artifact wielder a chance to escape should things most likely go south.
Since this is an Assassination attempt, and the villains would only be able to control the dragon temporarily with the Orb, it seems that coming up with a dragonslayer artifact is the best course of action.
Any cool ideas?
First step is to establish what the would-be assassins' resources are. A great deal of them are tied up with the logistics of their day-to-day affairs.
From these operations you need a timeline establishing at which point the fed-up persons decided to enact this plan and set everything else into motion. Gathering intelligence, scouring records, sorting out rubbish from legitimate and eliminating dead ends and red herrings.
The other side of this is the great wyrm herself. Is she is beloved by the general populace? She has generations of families that are serving her since ascending to the throne. How much time does she spend in non-dragon forms - and which ones are people aware of on a broad scale descending until either only her major domo or no one is aware?
Answer all of these backstory questions with old school journalism: who (did) what (with what/to whom), when (did they do what), where (did they do what), why (did they do what) and how (did they do what). Odds are almost all of these answers are not particularly complex. These answers are, however, necessary to fashion a cohesive narrative/backstory from which to base the active (player participating) campaign.