Having read meny post on these forums I am amazed at how freely so meny ref's
Allow there player to buy powerful magic items at will it would seem
I find this very odd as to my way of thinking this allows players to power game far to easily
As they can get ther hands on stuff to compensate for any weakness in there characters
It also removes the excitement of when characters discover new items which are often hard won
I mean when the party battle to the end of an adventure and gain new items it gives them more value to the players
They will much more remember the time they fought and defeated the dread wraith and his minions to recover the sword and armour of a long dead hero
Where as most seen to just nip to magic mart and pick up a +3 flaming long sword 2 dozen +1 arrows and a cloak of reasisatance +3
I have nothing against being able to buy minor stuff like low power potions and scrolls
Or even having something powerful made for them (so long as there is some kind of quest to find a componaint for it )
To me it just removes some of the fun when playeras know that can get pretty much what they like if they have enough cash
In my main game, we don't use the Settlement rules for magic items. Pretty much if you want something, it's there.
I wouldn't mind using those rules sometimes though. One of the strange paradoxes of human creativity is that when you place boundaries and restrictions on players, they get much more imaginative in how things are used.
Of course, this is all moot once they can teleport to the metropolis and buy whatever they want, but at low levels, could be fun.
The way I do things is that I assume the entire settlement is the magic mart. This means that there is a chance that the item is available. The party doesn't know who has it or where it can be located though. They still need to do some research. They can simply ask around or go to where they think it may be (potions of cure X wounds are probably at a temple for example).
1) So they tell me what they are looking for. I roll to see if it's available but I don't tell them the results.
2) The start searching. They can use Gather Information (Diplomacy), Knowledge skills, common sense, whatever they feel is necessary.
3) If the item is available, I tell them where it can be found.
4) Once they go to the place where the item is available, they now have an encounter. It might be combat, it might be negotiation, it might be an actual adventure. Whatever it is, it will cost them some resources but they might be able to acquire the item if they play things out well.
I don't like magic marts. I think they require a break in immersion. I do like forcing them to interact with the world and to make contacts. My method sticks with the general rules and expands the interactions the characters have. It makes shopping more fun and gives the party a list of people to avoid or connect with later.
I personally prefer the use what you find, commission someone to craft, do it yourself, or travel to larger cities for a better selection type of worlds.
However, my group does not. If it is not pretty close to a magic mart, it bothers them so much they would rather not play the game. {sigh}
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Kydeem, sorry to hear that. To certain players, the magic mart and the availability to craft one's own magic items is a huge thing. It is quite a sad thing. The game pretty much is half labelled "The Accounting chronicles." I more ran and participated in games which were a bit more original 2nd ed. There are no magic marts but the magic items are out there. Do cool stuff, smite the wicked, save the day, slay the big bad. Magic items will be found. They are supposed to be a significant reward for the party when they do something significantly kickass.
More dungeons, less crafting.
Yeah, they almost never care what a magic item is. It is really unlikely that it will just happen to be whatever their ultimate pick is at that time. So all they are concerned with is how much they can sell it to put in the collection for their next stop at the magic mart. Sometimes they will use a basic +1 or +2 item until they can purchase their ideal X. But other than that it is just saleable loot.
There is no real point to putting much effort into selecting special or unique magic items unless I want to just ask them exactly what they are looking for.
Recently, 2 of them have asked me to start incorporating psionic items in to the published adventure. I almost said, "Why would I bother, you won't use them anyway?" I didn't and I will put some in there. But I know unless I put in something way above the power curve, it will just be sold at the earliest opportunity to buy something else.
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Yep. That is pretty much what happens. I agree that magic items are important to characters in giving them a bit of something extra. Periapts of wisdom, headbands of intellect, belts of giant strength, they can be really useful. I am entirely alright with characters having them provided they earned it. Defeated a powerful opponent, that sort of thing. Either that or conning a formidable opponent out of it, as dangerous as it may be. The bottom line is that there has to be some sort of risk involved. If not, then it takes away from how incredible th PCs are. Adoring fan asks:"where did you get that sword from sir." Fighter replies:"my wizard friend made it for me. Easy and and really safe. Same thing goes with my armor, rings,amulet and bracers." Adoring fan looks crest-fallen. Compare that to if the fighter said:"I beat a big and nasty ogre who was terrorising villagers and torturing children. His arms were as thick as my legs and he could cut through oak trees really easily. The bracers, I found them in a hoard of treasure after my friends and I slayed this huge red scaly dragon. Capable of melting stone like snow in summer with its fiery breath......." Its pretty clear cut, which is the stuff of heroes and which is the stuff of great bargains at a magic mart closing down sale.
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LMAO
I will have to remeber your descriptions.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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@The Equalizer.
I kind of find that a non-sequetor.
- Aegis Fang wasn't less awesome than Icingdeath even though "My dwarf buddy made it for me."
- I'll let you tell Thor that Mjolnier isn't awesome since his daddy had it made for him.
- I don't think that Excalibur is any less awesome for being put in the stone by Merin than being granted directly to Arthur from the Lady in the Lake.
- Mistilteinn is no more or less famous than Dáinsleif. Do you know which one was made for its wielder and which one was found in a treasure hoard?
- Is Kusanagi-no-Tsurugi better known, famous than a Masamune or Muramasa blade?
"Where did you get your sword, Mister Fighter?"
"This is Balance of Judgement. Its adamantine blade was commissioned by me, crafted by dwarves rescued from the toils of Droskar. The hilt is made from the ivory tusk of a great mammoth, while the leather is from the rare and closed content Coeur. My boon companion, Wallace the Wizard enchanted it himself, calling on ancient magics to hone its blade so that it will cut a leaf passing through the air as easily as a dragon's skull. The dwarves quenched the blade in the ichor of demons sent to drag them back, and the blade hungers still for their flesh."
vs.
"Where did you get your sword, Mister Fighter?"
"Oh, this old thing? Well it's a +2 adamantine keen demon bane sword, we found it in this old tomb we broke into and ransacked."
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Yep. it becomes less awesome when such things are just made and bought with little risk. In the balance of judgement item, there is the risk. Rescuing dwarves from the toils of droskar and all that. Such items all have back stories. If the back story of the item is connected to the character, it makes the character so much more flavourful. With aegis-fang and icingdeath, it was cool that icingdeath was earned by drizzt and wulfgar through defeating the dragon. Aegis-fang may be an awesome hammer but drizzt is clearly the more favored in the books and with good reason. Mjolnier being a weapon of the thunder god, somewhat difficult to portray a god as uncool regardless of what they wield. But I''m getting side-tracked. I don't like the magic-mart option and other DMs don't. Then again, other gamers and DMs do. I don't prevent characters from taking the crafting feats but I do go more by 3.5 crafting rules. Other gamers would favor pathfinder crafting rules. Its simply a difference of appreciation of different game mechanics and game systems.
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I usually let my players know at the outset what the availability of magic items they can expect in the game will be. I really try to minimize anyone playing a character with the expectation of certain magic items, unless I'm running a game where such items could reasonably be expected to be fairly available. We're running an Eberron campaign converted for PF right now, and with the whole magic as technology idea there, I've kind of let anyone who wanted to divert resources to crafting run wild as long as they stay within the normal boundaries for crafting.
Normally, I run my campaigns with the understanding that there is no magic mart, but if my players give me a wish list, they can reasonably expect to see at least one or two items (within reason) pop up in a treasure hoard somewhere.
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Yeah, they almost never care what a magic item is. It is really unlikely that it will just happen to be whatever their ultimate pick is at that time. So all they are concerned with is how much they can sell it to put in the collection for their next stop at the magic mart. Sometimes they will use a basic +1 or +2 item until they can purchase their ideal X. But other than that it is just saleable loot.
There is no real point to putting much effort into selecting special or unique magic items unless I want to just ask them exactly what they are looking for.
Recently, 2 of them have asked me to start incorporating psionic items in to the published adventure. I almost said, "Why would I bother, you won't use them anyway?" I didn't and I will put some in there. But I know unless I put in something way above the power curve, it will just be sold at the earliest opportunity to buy something else.
Lately I've been trying something a bit new. Make my magic items very second ed, give them more flavour than just bonuses and odd benefits. So they have found a staff of sausages and a pouch of fairy-bread (from fey). There are little magic items with unusual abilities (small bow that does water force damage), fey sleep arrows (which you must make a save for no matter your level). Wand of zombie raising, ring of the greedy serpent that adds a small percentage to ALL rolls on the loot charts, that sort of thing. Some of these aren't discarded quickly. The players hold on to them.
One player got mesmerised by this +2 longsword she found, because it was just so damn beautiful, a true lady's blade.
@The Equalizer.
I kind of find that a non-sequetor.
- Aegis Fang wasn't less awesome than Icingdeath even though "My dwarf buddy made it for me."
- I'll let you tell Thor that Mjolnier isn't awesome since his daddy had it made for him.
- I don't think that Excalibur is any less awesome for being put in the stone by Merin than being granted directly to Arthur from the Lady in the Lake.
- Mistilteinn is no more or less famous than Dáinsleif. Do you know which one was made for its wielder and which one was found in a treasure hoard?
- Is Kusanagi-no-Tsurugi better known, famous than a Masamune or Muramasa blade?
"Where did you get your sword, Mister Fighter?"
"This is Balance of Judgement. Its adamantine blade was commissioned by me, crafted by dwarves rescued from the toils of Droskar. The hilt is made from the ivory tusk of a great mammoth, while the leather is from the rare and closed content Coeur. My boon companion, Wallace the Wizard enchanted it himself, calling on ancient magics to hone its blade so that it will cut a leaf passing through the air as easily as a dragon's skull. The dwarves quenched the blade in the ichor of demons sent to drag them back, and the blade hungers still for their flesh."
vs.
"Where did you get your sword, Mister Fighter?"
"Oh, this old thing? Well it's a +2 adamantine keen demon bane sword, we found it in this old tomb we broke into and ransacked."
Those items made and then given to the "hero" are indeed more boring and less awesome than weapons taken in battle through the iron price, with tales of great adventure attached to them before the player even uses them.
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If you find that either crafting, buying, or finding items makes them more interesting than the other two it is because you are biased to the point that you are deliberatly ignoring the others.
The party is going to go on great adventures, kill horrible monsters, and do heroic things thoughout the campaign, that is what the campaign is. Magic items serving as plot hooks, or quest items is great for the campaign and the players.
However, it really doesn't matter if the party pries the "Sword of Ogre Decapitation" grasp of a dead lich they have slain, or if they find that they lich had a hidden horde of gemstones that allows them to buy the sword, Or if it they find the pieces of a ancient blade that needs to be put together by a DC 25 Blacksmithing check in the heart of an ancient volcano. It is still achieving the exact thing, and it is how the DM's and player play out the scene that makes the difference, not specifically how they get the item.
Also there is nothing wrong with pulling "common" magic items off of the corpses of enemies, especially humanoid ones. If your party is facing humanoids and other weapon weilding enemies often, after a certain level those items should be frequently minor magic items. Otherwise how could they go against this party of adventurers and the magic items that they have. It's understandable that the world might be full of monsters that are naturally stronger and tougher than the party, but they shouldn't be rutinely be coming across humanoids that can equal them and their one of a kind dwarven blade quenched in the blood of a fallen god with their shortsword that they bought at the local blacksmith.
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Let me just add that that amazing sword you pried from the fingers of the now really-dead lich was made by someone somewhere, and some of those amazing tales from its past were from that first owner.
Some people enjoy being that first owner and being the person that started all those amazing tales.
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I don't like crafting in pathfinder - It's just more loot without a price.
The best encounters are the ones that give some sort of magic item that you can use - +2 ring of pro - I can use that!
But at some point players al have the ring of pro +1 and the amulet of nat armor +1 - and when they find a +1 scale mail - nobody things this is awesome - they just consider it loot to be sold - and if you get loot that can't be used by the players you need to give the players an oppotunity to buy interesting stuff. If you have plenty of gold but no way to spend it - it just gets frustrating.
That said - I kinda like a world with level appropriate buylimits - at lvl 12 I would like to be able to buy a +4 str item. But if I can't get EVERYTHING i want it makes it easier for the master to but a gem of a magic item in the loot every now and then.
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Ok I think a few people are not quite getting my point maybe I wasn't clear enough in my first post
As I said I have no problem with players getting stuff made for ther characters
As this often leads to good role playing as well as some good side track adventures
What I do have a problem with is when players look at there character sheet and decide that there gear juast isn't up to it any more
They then look at the rules decide what works best with what they can afford then just say to the ref I'm going shopping and is alowed to get what ever they like
I mean it's one thing to go buy a scroll of spider climb or a potion of healing as these are minor items that have a large market
Where as on the other hand not to meny people will want the +4 cold iron dragon bane great axe but odds are some one will know how to make it
It just seems to easy for players to power game through magic items
I don't really mind if player get items through combat or have some active part in there creation as long as they do something more than just pay for it
And as I was saying, It doesn't matter where the role playing is.
I'm not saying there SHOULD be a complete magic mart where everything that you can afford is available, I'm just saying if you want to emphasize role playing in your game it will happen regardless.
Just because he has that +4 cold iron dragon bane great axe doesn't mean that there isn't roll playing in the game, it doesn't mean that he didn't go on great adventures and get great and interesting treasure in the process. There are plenty of things that are hand waived by a DM so that the group can move on to what they see as more important aspects of the game, and some groups consider equipment shopping for equipment to fall in that list.
Some DMs or Groups may consider progressing the story to be more important that shopping for magic items. I don't see why that means they don't roll play, or removes the importance of treasure, or makes magic less rare.
Dragons, Titans, Demigods, and powerful outsiders are also incredibly rare in the world, but these are still things that a higher level party will be running across fairly consistently. That is what separates Adventurers from Commoners, they have a life that keeps them involved in things constantly that chances are a Commoner can go their entire life without seeing. And magical items are the same.
Just so you can get clearer answers in the future, I believe what your talking about is generally referred to as the MagicMart. The ideas that you can buy any magic item easily. Many people lump magic item crafting in with the MagicMart, but I would say they're two different things.
Note that while many people dislike the MagicMart, you can't just remove it with no further changes, since higher level play assumes the players have certain bonuses.
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I tend to play a lot of Wizards.
I also AT LEAST pick up Craft Wondrous Item.
I get it because I want to be sure that I can get the items I WANT, by making them myself. F'r'instance, there are LOTS of skills that can come in a Headband of Vast Intelligence, but the skills I WANT are usually a touch on the oddball, esoteric side; I don't imagine most crafters are making Headbands with Craft/Shipwright, Knowledge/Geography, and Profession/Sailor...
I also really dislike a regular economy of magic items; why would someone sell a magic item for cash when they make such good bribes, gifts to enhance loyalty among cohort and followers, etc.? Not to mention that buyers really ought to be rare, given the THOUSANDS of gp you're looking at...
Anyway, not sure if I have a real, on-topic point to make... just rambling around the OP.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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If you find that either crafting, buying, or finding items makes them more interesting than the other two it is because you are biased to the point that you are deliberatly ignoring the others.
The party is going to go on great adventures, kill horrible monsters, and do heroic things thoughout the campaign, that is what the campaign is. Magic items serving as plot hooks, or quest items is great for the campaign and the players.
However, it really doesn't matter if the party pries the "Sword of Ogre Decapitation" grasp of a dead lich they have slain, or if they find that they lich had a hidden horde of gemstones that allows them to buy the sword, Or if it they find the pieces of a ancient blade that needs to be put together by a DC 25 Blacksmithing check in the heart of an ancient volcano. It is still achieving the exact thing, and it is how the DM's and player play out the scene that makes the difference, not specifically how they get the item.
Also there is nothing wrong with pulling "common" magic items off of the corpses of enemies, especially humanoid ones. If your party is facing humanoids and other weapon weilding enemies often, after a certain level those items should be frequently minor magic items. Otherwise how could they go against this party of adventurers and the magic items that they have. It's understandable that the world might be full of monsters that are naturally stronger and tougher than the party, but they shouldn't be rutinely be coming across humanoids that can equal them and their one of a kind dwarven blade quenched in the blood of a fallen god with their shortsword that they bought at the local blacksmith.
Well said.
My personal preference of commissioning/making my own items comes from the 'make my own legend' bit. (Heck, I've researched some old prayers to bless weapons for a sword if I ever get a weapon grade broadsword of my own. 'Family blades' also are nice. Doesn't mean I won't pick up Sting if my halfling needs to.
Aside, that was one reason I love Elans. Their background in the XPH. Played a high level module once, I was playing an elan, and we had a bronze wyrmling in the party. She kept going on about how great dragons were, and so much better than 'you mammals'. It was nice to say "You are what you are through an accident of birth. I am truly a self made man." Look Here at 1:26 roughly. :-)
...It is still achieving the exact thing, and it is how the DM's and player play out the scene that makes the difference, not specifically how they get the item...
I think you might be misunderstanding me. I'm not saying it makes a mechanical difference in their stats. I'm just saying that I personally find the ability to just go buy what ever the PC wants to make the 'spoils of war' a bit bland and boring.
A few campaigns ago I placed a fairly powerful long sword with several useful abilities. However, it wasn't exactly what any of them had envisioned for their character. So it was not used a single time. It was just thrown into one of the bags of holding (every character has several so they can strip every location clean to the last saleable knife or buckler) to be sold. On time I got a "Can we just wander around to encounter some random thugs or something real quickly? I don't have quite enough for a +3 blade." Personally I see no kool, no wow, no memories with that attitude.I no longer put much effort into thinking up unique or meaningful magic items, because it will just be sold for X gold to be put toward a higher plus falchion, pistol, etc...
The other GM has approached it differently. He puts in magic items well beyond the WBL powerlevel of the party. Then they will use it for awhile only because they can't match it for quite some time. So the party at 4th level had things like:
+2 icy, distance, returning boomerang that granted proficiency
intelligent holy sword with a special purpose
magic spell book with every necromancy and divination spell
{ Of course then he has to up all the encounters to make them a challenge. But if he misjudges or the party has some bad rolls, there is serious risk of a TPK. }
With other groups where there is no magic mart, if your PC finds a magic item he will most likely hang on to and wield it because it is probably useful to do so. He will also remember the fight where he got the flaming halbard. If he wants a spell storing whip and has to undertake some adventure specifically so the mage is willing to create it for him he will probably remember what he went through to get it.
But it is how this group insists on gaming. So I am trying to adapt as much as I can. But there is no point in me putting any more effort into it than there is a +x scimitar in the chest, because it won't make any difference, it won't be remembered, and it won't lead to anything.
...My personal preference of commissioning/making my own items comes from the 'make my own legend' bit...
I got no problem with that. I once had a character spend a lot of time trying (and failing energetically) to create a heirloom blade that would grow in power with his family line. had a blast with it.
But the 'magic mart' crowd that I have seen don't do that either. Since they just buy whatever they want, the +3 keen blade is just another tool. It is more expensive than the horses saddle, but it's still just something written on the character sheet. There is nothing special about it.
Magic item wars...
When I first started playing RPGs back before Reagan sent Carter back to peanut farming, I viewed magic items as an end to themselves. Especially artifacts. In fact we even quested for magic items. The longest, most arduous campaign I ever went through was the search for the Rod of Seven Parts.
Upon finding the last part and assembling the rod, the heavens parted, the angels sang (all quite literally, I assure you) and my character was proclaimed the savior of all that was good and holy.
Then we started a new campaign. That character is now retired with his awesome rod, which was never once used in combat. Sigh...
Lesser magic items have had similar stories. Back in 2e my wizard lusted after a "Ring of Air Elemental Control". He finally got one. He's maybe been in one campaign since.
These days I tend to view magic items more as tools the character uses and focus more on building the character's history, backstory and personality. Magic items are interesting, but they don't define the character. They are part of the puzzle of building the character.
The rare exceptions are custom magic items the GM and I work out that support key character conceptual elements. These usually are not powerful, they are just unique and interesting.
This approach works the same whether the character is in a low magic or high magic world. If magic items are available, the character makes use of them. If they aren't the character does the best he can with what he has.
Part of this approach is due to my desire to have my characters recognized for their accomplishments, not for what loot they've collected along the way.
Just a qick aside here I think I might copyright the term "magic mart"
as it seems to have caught on quite well
... plus xp ...
No xp cost anymore.
I'm not so much in favor of the 'magic mart', but being if your GM isn't giving you stuff you can actually use (which happens - that NPC may use a cool +2 Flaming Scimitar, while your fighter is a Bastard Sword specialist), what do you do? 4th edition addressed this somewhat with the whole Residium thing, which made magic a recoverable resource.
If you can't sell it and can't use it, it isn't really treasure, it's window dressing. You can either jump through hoops to insure your players find stuff they will actually want to use, or you let them dispose of the stuff so they can get stuff they can actually use.
Wizards should invent a spell that can swap enchantments between two weapons/pieces of armor. That would be popular and probably solve a lot of issues.
Wizards should invent a spell that can swap enchantments between two weapons/pieces of armor. That would be popular and probably solve a lot of issues.
Starts furiously taking notes.
Wizards should invent a spell that can swap enchantments between two weapons/pieces of armor. That would be popular and probably solve a lot of issues.Starts furiously taking notes.
This exists in 4e. In fact we use it all the time. Crafting magic items in 4e is also much easier and more logical.
If you want a world where magic items are freely available, you can easily move, modify or redo magic items to customize your character, 4e does that very, very well.
Now, 4e has serious problems with magic items totally breaking the game, but man you can play around with magic items to your heart's content in 4e. Some of that is really good stuff that I hope Paizo is paying attention to.
It's a magical world. Magical items shouldn't be rare in a world where peasants spontaneously develop spell-casting abilities as a matter of course.
... if your GM isn't giving you stuff you can actually use (which happens - that NPC may use a cool +2 Flaming Scimitar, while your fighter is a Bastard Sword specialist), what do you do? ... If you can't sell it and can't use it, it isn't really treasure, it's window dressing...
Two things here:
First, that is somewhat rule change related. In earlier editions there was much less specialization. Every fighter could use all the weapons equally well. Even when the game started to allow specialization in a weapon, players would tend to pick the more common weapons specifically because that is what they were most likely to find. No one decided to specialize in the bill-hook because you never found a magic one. This is understandable change created by the changing rules and I mostly agree with it.
But that isn't mostly what I have seen. If the magic item is not EXACTLY what the player was planning to purchase anyway or vastly more powerful it is irrelevant except as disposable income.
Second, in a low magic campaign, most of the time I would have used the masterwork bastard sword that I prefered. But I would carry the scimitar with me for when I was fighting something with a high DR/magic or especially vulnerable to flame. It still has value.
Yeah, if only there was oh, say, an item or something... :-)
Kudos to the inventor (good job Christine). Still, I'm not hunting the forums for stuff from 2007 before I post ;-).
The real problem is, and always has been, that mere money can buy magic. While I don't want to go back to the days of spending XP (or points of Constitution!) to make magic items, but reducing magic item manufacture to abstract (insert gold -> collect item) is less involved than having a house built.
Maybe Ars Magica spoiled me that way. Collecting vis from the heart of a sea serpent to enchant a faerie iron warmaul was a lot more epic.
If you find that either crafting, buying, or finding items makes them more interesting than the other two it is because you are biased to the point that you are deliberatly ignoring the others.
The party is going to go on great adventures, kill horrible monsters, and do heroic things thoughout the campaign, that is what the campaign is. Magic items serving as plot hooks, or quest items is great for the campaign and the players.
However, it really doesn't matter if the party pries the "Sword of Ogre Decapitation" grasp of a dead lich they have slain, or if they find that they lich had a hidden horde of gemstones that allows them to buy the sword, Or if it they find the pieces of a ancient blade that needs to be put together by a DC 25 Blacksmithing check in the heart of an ancient volcano. It is still achieving the exact thing, and it is how the DM's and player play out the scene that makes the difference, not specifically how they get the item.
Also there is nothing wrong with pulling "common" magic items off of the corpses of enemies, especially humanoid ones. If your party is facing humanoids and other weapon weilding enemies often, after a certain level those items should be frequently minor magic items. Otherwise how could they go against this party of adventurers and the magic items that they have. It's understandable that the world might be full of monsters that are naturally stronger and tougher than the party, but they shouldn't be rutinely be coming across humanoids that can equal them and their one of a kind dwarven blade quenched in the blood of a fallen god with their shortsword that they bought at the local blacksmith.
I am so biased towards heroism--the players doing heroic deeds and getting the rewards of magic items from what they killed and what it hoarded. Not crafting them or getting them through merchant networks.
I'll make an exception on potions and knick-knacks. :P
I don't like crafting in pathfinder - It's just more loot without a price.
The best encounters are the ones that give some sort of magic item that you can use - +2 ring of pro - I can use that!
But at some point players al have the ring of pro +1 and the amulet of nat armor +1 - and when they find a +1 scale mail - nobody things this is awesome - they just consider it loot to be sold - and if you get loot that can't be used by the players you need to give the players an oppotunity to buy interesting stuff. If you have plenty of gold but no way to spend it - it just gets frustrating.That said - I kinda like a world with level appropriate buylimits - at lvl 12 I would like to be able to buy a +4 str item. But if I can't get EVERYTHING i want it makes it easier for the master to but a gem of a magic item in the loot every now and then.
The players must pay... the iron price.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kY6pkWuZb2w
I am so biased towards heroism--the players doing heroic deeds and getting the rewards of magic items from what they killed and what it hoarded. Not crafting them or getting them through merchant networks.I'll make an exception on potions and knick-knacks. :P
Why do magic items have to be the reward? What's wrong with them getting the dragon bane weapon first and getting a castle as a reward for using it successfully (for example)?
I honestly have to say I never understand this complaint but it keeps coming up in anything 3.P.
The 3.5 system was built on the idea of a certain amount of wealth in items at any given time. Is it perfect? Heck no but well nothing is.
The point is its a 2nd form of progression that is built into the system and is easiest to think about as a second exp. But in this progression the player gets a bit more control over it then they do leveling (Since class abilities and such are semi preset.) This is what for many make it fun. In they end that is the point of a game. Fun for all playing not just the GM.
Of course anyone can run their game any way they wish but to complain at others for running the game as it was intended is just silly. (Though I do like a roll for if the town/city will have it based on its size vs the value of the item.)
Being able to reasonably buy and sell does nothing to remove from the fun of getting loot. If you give them loot that is useful anyway. If you are throwing +1 swords when they should be into the +3 area of course they rather go shopping.
In the end you think it takes the fun out of it but what you think is fun is not the only opinion at the table is it? Maybe ask the players what they think. Or don't its up to you if you want it to be fun for all or just for you.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Yeah, if only there was oh, say, an item or something... :-)Kudos to the inventor (good job Christine). Still, I'm not hunting the forums for stuff from 2007 before I post ;-).
The real problem is, and always has been, that mere money can buy magic. While I don't want to go back to the days of spending XP (or points of Constitution!) to make magic items, but reducing magic item manufacture to abstract (insert gold -> collect item) is less involved than having a house built.
Maybe Ars Magica spoiled me that way. Collecting vis from the heart of a sea serpent to enchant a faerie iron warmaul was a lot more epic.
I understand, really I do. Like I said under the 'self made man' argument, I'd much rather have my Damascarran/Magus/Inquisitor take the item creation feat and build it myself.*
At the same time, if the 'testies of a storm giant' are needed to make a belt of physical perfection +6, there's going to be a market for them. Heck, I could see a clever dragon** selling his own shed scales, or the parts of another dragon he defeated, to increase his hoard. Dragons make a good example since they're likely to have knowlege arcana and/or spellcraft, being casters themselves.***
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That'd make for a funny campaign when the players find out that the MagicMart chain is run from behind the scenes by a red dragon who actively keeps the prices and competition down.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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That'd make for a funny campaign when the players find out that the MagicMart chain is run from behind the scenes by a red dragon who actively keeps the prices and competition down.
Personal bias, I'd expect the Blues and the Greens to do that. Though I could see a Red dragon going the extortion route. "Nice forest you have here, be a shame if something burned it down. Now for a low fee of a few scrolls a month, I could keep that from happening..."
I played a blue wyrmling in Greyhawk who wanted to gather up enough money to buy a nice plot of open land and start a horse ranch, breeding and selling race horses. I figured she'd use natural selection to improve the breed.
"Thanks for the horse Miss Ethster! How do you breed them to run so fast?"
"I eat the slow ones. Oh and people who are late on payments."
*gulp* "Well ok ma'am."