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Here's my 2 quid.
In my games, no matter which world I'm running, I have that world function just like a living breathing world. If the god of nature reveres all nature and you are killing them left and right then I can assure you that he, or she, will be paying you a visit. Just because you are a PC doesn't mean that god is going to turn a blind eye. I don't play the game just looking at the mechanical rules and numbers, this is a role playing game after all.
Now what I would do in this situation is I would have Ehlonna herself be the next animal companion to observe her servant in action. If this were to happen again then I would have her reveal herself and teach the druid a lesson.
If this were a one off then I wouldn't pay it any attention or if they weren't his fault directly but since he seems to be going through animal companions like toilet paper, I see a problem
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I should point out that in Matthew's Alignment system, Vader trying to keep Luke alive isn't alignment changable (yes, it's a good act arguing that they can turn Luke instead of just killing him, but he's doing it for selfish reasons.)
And yes, Darth Vader choosing to save Luke is a good act
(assuming it was motivated by his love of his son and not "Hey, here's a chance to off Darth Siddious and grab the throne for myself!") but one good act shouldn't cause an alignment change. (Loss of anti-paladin status? Yes, but not alignment change.) Vader-as-Redeemed-Force-Spirit was lampooned quite nicely in the Robot Chicken episode where the emperor was redeemed for rethinking his life while falling to his doom.
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Exactly as I said, it relies entirely on motivation + result.
Not one or the other, but both combined.I never said anything about the Paladin "shurgging" off killing an innocent. He would be broken, full of self-hatred, and probably would feel the need to atone for reasons far beyond getting his abilities back.
Motivation and result?
His motivation: Wipe out the invading orc army, saving the town in the valley. Lawful and Good Intent.The result: The army was destroyed, but so were dozens of innocents. Neutral Result? How can the paladin control the result?
He can't. He can only control his own ACTIONS, in response to the world around him. The Action of causing the Avalanche was LG only if it was the only way he could stop the invading army before they reached the town. If he had time to muster up an army and take the orcs through war and tactics, without the possibility of innocents being killed, starting the avalanche is decidedly chaotic, and neither good nor evil.
His ACTIONS in response to the destruction of the orphanage are more important than his Intent or Motivation in doing so.
Its part of the reason why a CE character, by definition, cannot be a hero. An anti-hero, maybe, like the Punisher, where chaotic and evil acts happen to be directed against others who are evil, resulting in a net win for the forces of good. The Punisher is not noble, brave, nor is his behavior an ideal to strive after.
What I love is when people think what they can imagine themselves is sufficient argument for any situation.
I cannot imagine that a force like nature, that has dropped fire and lighting on an uncountable number of wolves with far less reason, would give a crap when another wolf dies.
You mean like anyone who has ever GM'd any type of game?
GMs are completely limited by what they can imagine. Or is every GM wrong?
Ah, but he didn't just save his son from the emperor, he destroyed the most powerful evil being in the galaxy, saved the last of the jedi so they can rebuild, and with the emperor's death ended a war that involved millions without killing millions on either side. He also made peace with his son before he croaked, which is another plus.
Right... an emperor he had helped put in power and whose bidding he had done for decades.
The "last of the jedi" because he had personally killed hundreds of them and he had been complicit in the murder of the rest.
He helped to end a war that was largely the result of his own actions, and which had already led to the deaths of untold billions, probably trillions of people.
I mean, sure, you can put some lipstick on the pig.... but there is no way anyone can objectively say that Darth Vader's villainy was remotely countered by his final acts. This is like saying Hitler would be redeemed if he commuted a few death penalties in his final hours...
As a baptized Catholic, all Hitler had to do to get into heaven was ask God for forgiveness and honestly mean it. At least that's what his religion believed. There is nothing you can do in the Catholic religion to get yourself permanently banned from heaven. You can be a genocidal maniac and as long as you're really sorry at the end, you're good to go.
As a follower of the force, DV is not bound by good or evil. The force is a neutral concept. As part of the Sith denomination of the force religion, he actually acted in accordance with the ideals of his religion. Therefore, if the Sith have a heaven, his only act that prevented him from getting there was his actions at the end of the trilogy.
We can't judge their actions using our own ideals of morality or religion since our ideals of morality are unique to a single culture of a single species on a single planet in a very large universe.
We have to judge fictional characters by the rules of the universe they exist in.
Now what I would do in this situation is I would have Ehlonna herself be the next animal companion to observe her servant in action. If this were to happen again then I would have her reveal herself and teach the druid a lesson.
Awesome idea. I might be a bit more cruel. I'd Have Ehlonna slap a leash in the offending character and make him her pet until such time as he has been house trained.
-MD
Exactly as I said, it relies entirely on motivation + result.
Not one or the other, but both combined.I never said anything about the Paladin "shurgging" off killing an innocent. He would be broken, full of self-hatred, and probably would feel the need to atone for reasons far beyond getting his abilities back.
Motivation and result?
His motivation: Wipe out the invading orc army, saving the town in the valley. Lawful and Good Intent.
The result: The army was destroyed, but so were dozens of innocents. Neutral Result? How can the paladin control the result?He can't. He can only control his own ACTIONS, in response to the world around him. The Action of causing the Avalanche was LG only if it was the only way he could stop the invading army before they reached the town. If he had time to muster up an army and take the orcs through war and tactics, without the possibility of innocents being killed, starting the avalanche is decidedly chaotic, and neither good nor evil.
His ACTIONS in response to the destruction of the orphanage are more important than his Intent or Motivation in doing so.Its part of the reason why a CE character, by definition, cannot be a hero. An anti-hero, maybe, like the Punisher, where chaotic and evil acts happen to be directed against others who are evil, resulting in a net win for the forces of good. The Punisher is not noble, brave, nor is his behavior an ideal to strive after.
You can't control the result, but you can mitigate the possibility of bad results through careful analysis of the situation. The Paladin took a big risk with a good intention, but the taking of that risk was where the minor taint of non-good gets in there. He rolled dice using innocent lives, and even though he threw those dice with pure intent, he still threw the dice knowing that the outcome could go bad. Hence he should be judged by a combination of motivation and action, as we judge people in our own society, hence why we have "degrees" of murder.
And an antihero is still technically a hero, he's just a heroic figure without the heroic figure archetype.
Just like an antivillain is still a villain, he's just one that you related to and understand his motivations, like Walter White in Breaking Bad, or Tony Montana in Scarface. Both cannot be considered heroes, no act they take is heroic, no good comes from their actions other than good for themselves, they're DEFINITELY villains, but they're sympathetic villains and hence antivillains.
What I love is when people think what they can imagine themselves is sufficient argument for any situation.
I cannot imagine that a force like nature, that has dropped fire and lighting on an uncountable number of wolves with far less reason, would give a crap when another wolf dies.You mean like anyone who has ever GM'd any type of game?
GMs are completely limited by what they can imagine. Or is every GM wrong?
LOL, nice reconstruction of the point Steve... as if we the subject were even remotely about how YOU GM a game.
All I am trying to point out is that the limits of one person's imagination is not what I would consider to be a meaningful argument for or against anything.
We can't judge their actions using our own ideals of morality or religion since our ideals of morality are unique to a single culture of a single species on a single planet in a very large universe.We have to judge fictional characters by the rules of the...
No argument there Flesh, but I wasn't the one who brought other fictional realms into the discussion.
The only reason I commented anyway is because that's one of the aspects of Star Wars that I find hilarious. You make a good point though about the way the force has a light and dark side. Apparently the Star Wars universe is Lawful Neutral or something...
So he is a Neutral Good Druid of Ehlonna in the Forgotten Realms.??? Age of Worms is set in Greyhawk. Ehlonna is one of the original gods of the Greyhawk setting. Forgotten Realms doesn't come into it.
Kirth, I stand corrected. I apologise for my incorrect setting assumption.
It in no way changes what I said, besides making the clarification about FR death superfluous though.
There is nothing you can do in the Catholic religion to get yourself permanently banned from heaven.Suicide.
Martyrdom is technically suicide. It's the choice to die for a greater cause.
Also, interestingly enough, because of a technicality, if you slit your wrist but said you were sorry before you finished bleeding out, you could even negate the suicide.
Suicide by gun could be tougher to negate. How fast can you say "I'm sorry"?
Generally, the problem with suicide is that you can't say you're sorry for the sin before death, not the suicide itself.
You also can't preemptively say you're sorry, I checked on this one time.
Well, I had a Catholic friend, and not being one myself I can't say different, that told me the Church modified their stance awhile back. Mentally ill Catholic Christians aren't responsible for their actions while ill so aren't responsible, from a Biblical standpoint. They ruled that anybody that commits suicide is mentally ill, so isn't going to Hell after all. Now another Catholic would need to find out if that is true or not. Me, I'm Baptist, sorta. Probably be happier as an Episcopalian. Either way, it doesn't affect me.
Here's my 2 quid.
In my games, no matter which world I'm running, I have that world function just like a living breathing world. If the god of nature reveres all nature and you are killing them left and right then I can assure you that he, or she, will be paying you a visit. Just because you are a PC doesn't mean that god is going to turn a blind eye. I don't play the game just looking at the mechanical rules and numbers, this is a role playing game after all.
Now what I would do in this situation is I would have Ehlonna herself be the next animal companion to observe her servant in action. If this were to happen again then I would have her reveal herself and teach the druid a lesson.
If this were a one off then I wouldn't pay it any attention or if they weren't his fault directly but since he seems to be going through animal companions like toilet paper, I see a problem
Cool beans, but wouldn't a god coming into the world get a lot of attention from Ehlonna's enemies? God teleports in, evil detects the disturbance in the force, down come the legions of evil, character gets killed in the cross-fire. Ehlonna might get killed if an evil god rocks up, but this may bring more and more gods wading into the brawl.
This is why it is rare for gods to come down in games, and they sit safely in their planes. They will be attacked and possibly killed.
Now what I would do in this situation is I would have Ehlonna herself be the next animal companion to observe her servant in action. If this were to happen again then I would have her reveal herself and teach the druid a lesson.Awesome idea. I might be a bit more cruel. I'd Have Ehlonna slap a leash in the offending character and make him her pet until such time as he has been house trained.
-MD
Player counters easily. Chuckles and chucks his sheet. Rolls up another character and escapes punishment. If we want to punish a character it is difficult, because they can just get a new one, or leave/throw popcorn and mountain dew. Heavy handed just gets resistance, anti-authority players and all that.
I am not going to try to read all the posts (the above discussion of suicide just reinforces this decision). If you want to "punish" a player for killing off their companion, the way to do that is not allow a free 24 hour period for them to pray for a new one. When they do get a chance, be very strict on what kind of animal companion they get. "I get another wolf." "Nope, the rules say you get one from the area it typically lives. This area has no native wolf packs. But what it does have is donkeys. So a donkey shows up after your 24 hours of prayer." Use the rules in the game. Don't put in a bunch of hokey crap just because the player didn't have a "Blackleaf" moment when a fictional animal lost all of its hit point value in a game.
Send the donkey off into the monster woods, strapped with bloody meat, never to return. Pray for a new companion in a wolf area.
Send the donkey off into the monster woods, strapped with bloody meat, never to return. Pray for a new companion in a wolf area.
Good luck catching up with the rest of the party after they have already waiting 2 days for you to get moving again. :)
Alright, so just caught up on the thread again. I guess the only thing that I'm left confused about is that the DM said that the player isn't stupid but that he didn't think the flaming cat might be fire resistant?...
Isn't that like looking at the Human Torch and wondering if it hurts him when he is on fire even though he looks completely comfortable?
Just sayin...
Alright, so just caught up on the thread again. I guess the only thing that I'm left confused about is that the DM said that the player isn't stupid but that he didn't think the flaming cat might be fire resistant?...
Isn't that like looking at the Human Torch and wondering if it hurts him when he is on fire even though he looks completely comfortable?
Just sayin...
Could be a case of a reasonably intelligent person having a derp moment. Those have been known to happen to everyone.
No. Your wrong. Some people are completely immune.
... ;)
Actually it makes me wonder what the description the DM gave of the Hellcat.
Niagara falls does not care another animal companion falls.
In fact it had a barrel of laughs.
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As a baptized Catholic, all Hitler had to do to get into heaven was ask God for forgiveness and honestly mean it. At least that's what his religion believed. There is nothing you can do in the Catholic religion to get yourself permanently banned from heaven. You can be a genocidal maniac and as long as you're really sorry at the end, you're good to go.
But you can get forced to spend eternity in Wisconsin. :-)
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Hiya.
I haven't read all the posts, but here's my 2¢.
Next time he summons an animal companion, tell him that he has an *extremely* odd feeling about it. That he can 'sense' what the animal is sensing, know what it is feeling and wants, etc...on an empathic level almost.
Then, give him the ability to use the wolfs (assuming it's a wolf) Perception roll in place of his if he wants (basically he will get 'two' Perception type checks...Listening, Smelling, etc.), anytime the wolf is within, say, 100'. This would proove escpecially useful when he is sleeping. Play it up.
Of course, if he ever does something that directly injurs his animal companion, he takes an equal amount of damage, *as a percentage of HP*. >:) In other words, if he does 15 points to a 30 point wolf, he takes 50% of his HP. This could proove...quite dangerous.
At least this way he can see the companion as what it is...a boon, and a hinderance.
^_^
Paul L. Ming
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Hiya.
I haven't read all the posts, but here's my 2¢.
Next time he summons an animal companion, tell him that he has an *extremely* odd feeling about it. That he can 'sense' what the animal is sensing, know what it is feeling and wants, etc...on an empathic level almost.
Then, give him the ability to use the wolfs (assuming it's a wolf) Perception roll in place of his if he wants (basically he will get 'two' Perception type checks...Listening, Smelling, etc.), anytime the wolf is within, say, 100'. This would proove escpecially useful when he is sleeping. Play it up.
Of course, if he ever does something that directly injurs his animal companion, he takes an equal amount of damage, *as a percentage of HP*. >:) In other words, if he does 15 points to a 30 point wolf, he takes 50% of his HP. This could proove...quite dangerous.
At least this way he can see the companion as what it is...a boon, and a hinderance.
^_^
Paul L. Ming
Generally it is very bad policy to change game mechanics mid-campaign. If this is something a GM wants to do, it would be better to write it down as a future house-rule.
If the problem is a roleplaying issue, then it is best to handle it either in a roleplaying fashion or as an out of game discussion. Not to change game mechanics to punish someone for not roleplaying in a way that the GM wants them to.
Hiya.
I haven't read all the posts, but here's my 2¢.
Next time he summons an animal companion, tell him that he has an *extremely* odd feeling about it. That he can 'sense' what the animal is sensing, know what it is feeling and wants, etc...on an empathic level almost.
Then, give him the ability to use the wolfs (assuming it's a wolf) Perception roll in place of his if he wants (basically he will get 'two' Perception type checks...Listening, Smelling, etc.), anytime the wolf is within, say, 100'. This would proove escpecially useful when he is sleeping. Play it up.
Of course, if he ever does something that directly injurs his animal companion, he takes an equal amount of damage, *as a percentage of HP*. >:) In other words, if he does 15 points to a 30 point wolf, he takes 50% of his HP. This could proove...quite dangerous.
At least this way he can see the companion as what it is...a boon, and a hinderance.
^_^
Paul L. Ming
Generally it is very bad policy to change game mechanics mid-campaign. If this is something a GM wants to do, it would be better to write it down as a future house-rule.
If the problem is a roleplaying issue, then it is best to handle it either in a roleplaying fashion or as an out of game discussion. Not to change game mechanics to punish someone for not roleplaying in a way that the GM wants them to.
I like the empathic link, but pres speaks truth. Changing the rules in the middle of something has always been a hassle, especially for the player which has to adapt as the rules of the game suddenly change. In the wolf example, if there was a combat where the wolf and the druid got crit, say by crossbow ambushers, the druid may drop dead in a heartbeat. What then, if the player says "well thanks dm, I'm very glad you killed my player with your rule change. That crit on the wolf was massive and it finished me off. Cheers." you have one very offended player. He didn't play well with his nature animal and a rule change without notification has ruined their evening.
A rule change with no notification before-hand.
I've only had bad experiences with those, e.g:
DM: oh you are playing a fast character that doesn't wear armour, well you take damage moving near plants in rows.
Me: I'm not running into them, I'm running down the rows. Where the f*** is that rule in the book? Are you punishing me for having a great speed?
Dm was unhappy because his opponents were slow like a slug on sake. Kind of like a rule change after a dm was unhappy with a druid player...
dabbler A+
pming A+shifty hmmm... C-
Contribution, 'u r doin it rong'.
Ah, but he didn't just save his son from the emperor, he destroyed the most powerful evil being in the galaxy, saved the last of the jedi so they can rebuild, and with the emperor's death ended a war that involved millions without killing millions on either side. He also made peace with his son before he croaked, which is another plus.
Right... an emperor he had helped put in power and whose bidding he had done for decades.
The "last of the jedi" because he had personally killed hundreds of them and he had been complicit in the murder of the rest.
He helped to end a war that was largely the result of his own actions, and which had already led to the deaths of untold billions, probably trillions of people.
I mean, sure, you can put some lipstick on the pig.... but there is no way anyone can objectively say that Darth Vader's villainy was remotely countered by his final acts. This is like saying Hitler would be redeemed if he commuted a few death penalties in his final hours...
I agree but redemption, at least to me, means an honest attempt to ameliorate one's actions. Whether he was unable to "make up" for those actions, completely, is subjective and not relevant to the cool role-playing possibilities. In fact, I would say that the further you fall, the more interesting the climb back up becomes.
I agree but redemption, at least to me, means an honest attempt to ameliorate one's actions. Whether he was unable to "make up" for those actions, completely, is subjective and not relevant to the cool role-playing possibilities. In fact, I would say that the further you fall, the more interesting the climb back up becomes.
Bold, I agree with you and Dabbler from a philosophical and theological real-world perspective. The ability to redeem is key to most real-world religions and does not require balancing out a lifetime's worth of evil, only a sincere desire to return to the light side...
In the context of the Pathfinder universe though, that's not how it works as far as I've been able to determine. Your evil deeds do, in fact, weigh you down. I believe you could have your acts redeemed by a deity, but I don't believe repentance is enough in the PF universe.
In the Star Wars universe... who knows?
It is an interesting theological and philosophical question, I agree. There are two perspectives on this that I know of - and I will add these interpretations are to the best of my knowledge and understanding:
In the monotheistic religions (in Christianity and Islam, primarily), the simple desire for redemption and obtaining absolution (be it by a priest of by a single altruistic deed) is all that is required, no matter what deeds were performed in life. Do that, and your soul is saved and you are going to heaven.
In many of the faiths that believe in reincarnation, you carry your karma with you from one life to the next. However this does not mean that redemption is irrelevant: If you reach the realisation that you have erred, this alone will have an effect on how you are reincarnated, the attitude you will have and the decisions you will face in the next incarnation. You still have that bad karma to work off, but you have 'turned a corner' as it were, and your next life will give you the opportunity to carry on in the new direction you have chosen.
In both cases, redemption in a single act carries very great benefits - even if you are not 'saved' you have definitely put yourself on the right path.
I am not really looking this from a philosophical or religious standpoint, but from a storytelling standpoint. The best games I played in were about the character's becoming heroes. Killing dragons was cool, but the moral quandaries the characters had to deal with were just as much fun. One player I know had a paladin who was tricked into sleeping with a Succubus. Toward the end of the campaign he found that the BBEG's main henchman was his cambion son. Fun night of gaming. The same could be said about stripping the Druid of his powers. It makes for a great story, whether the Druid gets his powers back or not. If you are interested, read Lorca's "The Theory and Function of the Duenda". It's an essay about what the spirit is and how it is transformed by going metaphorically down into the bowels of a person. It's not exactly on topic, but a great read.